Looks like things are under control now, but things got a little dicey here. Bet you didn't see that on the news due to the "tear gas controversy". Wake up people, your life is hanging in this delicate balance. This should have made national news. The latest headline I saw on Reuters (sorry forgot to copy it) said the plant was now in hot stanby and that a team of NRC specialists had been sent in to figure out exactly what happened. Let me translate that for you, THEY DON'T FREAKING KNOW!!! But you just keep following that there WACO gubmint conspiracy bullshit and ignore this? Of course they used tear gas, they killed those people by accident. That sometimes happens when you put yourself in harms way. Guess what you are all in harms way right NOW.

INDIAN POINT: EMERGENCY DECLARED

Date: 990901 From: http://www.nrc.gov/NRR/DAILY/der.htm

Daily Events Report U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Operations Center

---------------------------------------------------------------------- Power Reactor Event Number: 36104 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FACILITY: INDIAN POINT REGION: 1 NOTIFICATION DATE: 08/31/1999 UNIT: [2] [] [] STATE: NY NOTIFICATION TIME: 16:01[EDT] RXTYPE: [2] W-4-LP,[3] W-4-LP EVENT DATE: 08/31/1999 -----------------------------------------EVENT TIME: 14:30[EDT] NRC NOTIFIED BY: DENNIS CORNAX LAST UPDATE DATE: 08/31/1999 HQ OPS OFFICER: BOB STRANSKY ----------------------------- ------------------------------------------PERSON ORGANIZATION EMERGENCY CLASS: N/A JOHN ROGGE R1 10 CFR SECTION: ED GOODWIN NRR ARPS 50.72(b)(2)(ii) RPS ACTUATION FRANK CONGEL IRO AESF 50.72(b)(2)(ii) ESF ACTUATION ---------------------------------------------------------------------- UNIT SCRAM CODERX CRITINIT PWR INIT RX MODE CURR PWR CURR RX MODE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 A/R Y 100 Power Operation 0 Hot Standby ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EVENT TEXT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- AUTOMATIC REACTOR TRIP WITH COMPLICATIONS

An automatic reactor trip/turbine trip occurred due to an overtemperature differential temperature (OTdT) trip signal. The licensee was replacing Channel 3 pressurizer low pressure trip bistables when a spurious OTdT trip signal occurred on Channel 4, completing the 2/4 logic. Following the trip, control rod K-2 of Control Bank D had an indicated position of 14.4 steps out from fully inserted. All other control rods are fully inserted.

Following the trip, 480 VAC bus 6A received an undervoltage trip signal, causing buses 2A, 3A, 5A, and 6A to transfer to their associated emergency diesel generators (EDGs) (22, 21, and 23, respectively). Buses 2A, 3A, and 5A are currently being supplied by the EDGs; however, the output breaker for EDG 23 tripped upon loading to bus 6A, which remains deenergized. Operators manually started the turbine driven auxiliary feedwater pump due to the loss of control power to one of the motor driven AFW pumps caused by the loss of bus 6A.

The unit is currently stable in hot standby. The licensee is currently troubleshooting bus 6A in anticipation of restoring power. The NRC resident inspector has been informed of this event by the licensee.

HOO Note: See Event #36107.

* * *

---------------------------------------------------------------------- Power Reactor Event Number: 36107 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FACILITY: INDIAN POINT EGION: 1 NOTIFICATION DATE: 08/31/1999 UNIT: [2] [] [] TATE: NY NOTIFICATION TIME: 22:39[EDT] RXTYPE: [2] W-4-LP,[3] W-4-LP EVENT DATE: 08/31/1999 -----------------------------------------EVENT TIME: 21:55[EDT] NRC NOTIFIED BY: MARK STUBBLE LAST UPDATE DATE: 09/01/1999 HQ OPS OFFICER: BOB STRANSKY ----------------------------- ------------------------------------------PERSON ORGANIZATION EMERGENCY CLASS: UNU JOHN WHITE R1 10 CFR SECTION: DAVID MATTHEWS NRR AAEC 50.72 (a) (1) (I) EMERGENCY DECLARED CHARLES MILLER IRO JOHN ROGGE R1 GENE CANUPP FEMA

---------------------------------------------------------------------- UNIT SCRAM CODERX CRITINIT PWR INIT RX MODE CURR PWR CURR RX MODE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 N N 0 Hot Standby 0 Hot Standby ---------------------------------------------------------------------- EVENT TEXT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- UNUSUAL EVENT DUE TO LOSS OF MOST CONTROL ROOM ANNUNCIATORS

An Unusual Event was declared at 2155 EDT due to an unplanned loss of greater than 75% of the control room safety system annunciators for longer than 15 minutes. The licensee reported that the annunciators are currently inoperable, and that additional panel walkdowns are being performed. The unit is currently stable in Hot Standby following a reactor trip earlier today (see EN 36104). The NRC resident inspector has been informed, and is in the control room.

* * UPDATE AT 0157 EDT ON 9/1/99 BY MARK STUBBLE TO FANGIE JONES * *

The plant conditions are improving and the plant is stable in Hot Shutdown. The annunciators have been restored. The previous problem with 480 VAC busses on Event #36104 has been found to be related to the loss of the annunciators. Further evaluation is ongoing and the licensee expects to exit the Unusual Event soon.

The licensee notified the NRC Resident Inspector. The HOO notified the R1DO (John White), NRR EO (David Matthews), and IRO Manager (Charles Miller).

* * UPDATE AT 0343 EDT ON 9/1/99 BY MARK STUBBLE TO FANGIE JONES * *

The plant has exited the Unusual Event, the plant is in normal Hot Shutdown. The licensee has notified the NRC Resident. The HOO notified the R1DO (John White), NRR EO (David Matthews), IRO Manager (Charles Miller), and FEMA (Gene Canupp)

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

-- Anonymous, September 02, 1999

Answers

Interesting/thanks. I saw this NO WHERE.

ODDLY ENOUGH- This is the same plant that had intense UFO activity in mid-eighties, witnessed by Thousands of people...one of the most outrageous & least publicized in us/ufology. (The enourmous thing hovered on top of the plant and shut down the lights/security/etc.)

Can't believe it wasn't picked up by wire services?...!

-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999

Gotta say here folks, I can't believe this isn't news. Notice the article says nothing about proximity to NYC. Most people have no idea where Buchanan, N.Y., is.

NEW YORK, Sept 2 (Reuters) - Consolidated Edison Inc. (Con Ed) said Thursday its 975-megawatt (MW) Indian Point 2 nuclear unit will remain off line for several days following its automatic shutdown Tuesday. "We don't know yet when the plant will restart. It will probably take several more days to fully understand the reasons for the automatic shutdown and the subsequent unusual event with one of its backup systems," Con Ed spokesman Mike Spall said. On Tuesday, the plant tripped off line after a reaction protection system received a spurious signal. A few minutes after the trip, the plant's three emergency diesel generators automatically activated as expected. However, one of the generators failed to load properly, leading to the eventual draindown of a battery that serves as a backup power source. Con Ed informed the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) of the unusual event with the backup system. The company said three separate groups were on site at Indian Point 2 Thursday, including a Con Ed team, a team of independent nuclear specialists and a team sent by the NRC, to fully understand the cause of the trip and subsequent failure of the backup systems. "The plant will not restart until we fully understand what occurred. Safety is our number one priority," Spall said. The plant, located in Buchanan, N.Y., has remained in hot shutdown mode since Tuesday's outage. Meanwhile, the New York Power Authority's adjacent 965-MW Indian Point 3 nuclear unit was operating at 89 percent power as it coasts down for its 45-day September 10 refueling outage.

-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999

Either this is a terrorist attack, or Homer's spilled donut jelly on the control board.

-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999

How many emergency generators are not going to work? How many human errors will occur in stress situations? How many? How many?

-- Anonymous, September 04, 1999

Once again we see a failure of an EDG backup power source. Even at this late date, they are not being given the serious concern they require. I just can't figure out this industry or the NRC attitudes. Why aren't these EDGs being fully tested now? With less than 4 months to go there are sure to be big delays on certain parts. It's as if the whole industry, NRC included, just doesn't really believe the EDGs have to be 99.9% reliable, and not just for a start up, but for a week or more of continuous faultless running. And it's not as if the generators are old and worn and limping along on few spare parts. These things have hardly been run at all, except for an occasional start up for a few hours. Suppose you bought a new truck a few years ago and just let it sit in a garage except for a startup a couple times per year. Fine. But if you think you may need that vehicle for some emergency use in the near future it would be smart to be running it regularly right now and discovering just what has deteriorated from lack of use. Is that too simple an idea? Am I missing something here?

-- Anonymous, September 04, 1999

First off I am NO Nuke expert!! But I did work security at this Nuke plant. The good news it is under control, for now. The bad news is that this plant is the good one on this site. Site ONE (NYPA)was experimental and as far as I know it is permanently offline. Site two is run by a private corporation, in this case ConEd. This is the best site they have. I have lived in the area and it has been run by a private corp and has had little down time except for routine maintenance, changing rods etc. Site three is a joke!! Although it is now currently running, for most of its life it has had problems and has been shutdown for probably 50% of its lifespan for problems. If this was Site Three that was having problems I wouldn't be much more worried than I am about any Nuke plant having problems. But with site Two down, and I am assuming that site Three was powered up to cover the loss of generating capacity, It does not give me a warm fuzzy. Buchanan NY is located at Peekskill NY about 50 miles as the crow flies to the Tri-state Metropolitan area where 15-20 million people live. It is located on the Hudson River and was endangered by the Zebra Mussels covering the intake/output vavles during the 70's and 80's. It would be a very easy target for a "terrorist" with a handheld SAM or LAAW. Yes, it has had a lot of UFO activity as all of our Nuke plants have. The Mid-Hudson Valley has had a lot of UFO incidents. But the best news of all is that Indian Point Power Station is built on one of the few geologic fault lines in southern New York State. Shows how smart these people really are.

Mark D. DeVries

-- Anonymous, September 04, 1999

Second Gordon's comments. This is ugly. These EDG systems should have better reliability then the residential electrical supply and it appears that they don't. For crying out loud this isn't a high school science experiment its a nuclear power plant. Also, this was interesting

"However, one of the generators failed to load properly, leading to the eventual draindown of a battery that serves as a backup power source."

I was under the impression that EDGs were set up as a doubly redundent system and the loss of one generator would lead to the other generator or generators taking up the slack. I must have been mistaken.

Incidently can we please leave out the observations on the best way to blow up a nuclear power plant or dismantle the power grid.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 1999

ODDLY ENOUGH- This is the same plant that had intense UFO activity in mid-eighties, witnessed by Thousands of people...one of the most outrageous & least publicized in us/ufology. (The enourmous thing hovered on top of the plant and shut down the lights/security/etc.)

aha!!! now here *is* an idea. obviously the beings that inhabit these ufo's are a bit more evolved then we happen to be... maybe they are not only more technologically evolved but have also managed to reach a higher state of awareness regarding there fellow, uh, er, man.

instead of wasting my time talking to the residents of this particularly fragile and endangered planet perhaps i should try to contact the extra terrestrials and see if they can come up with a way to take down the nukes for the rollover.

so... think it will work?

something has to...

or we all end up like krispy kritters.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999

Marianne,

If one is to believe the reports from those who claim to have had direct contact with the ETs, it would seem they are very concerned about the sloppy way we humans have dealt with nuclear energy, in all forms, including power generation. Further, reports of their presence over military nuclear test sites, as well as over the power plants, suggests that they are closely watching what we are doing. So, if they are as smart as they would appear to be, I think they are full of good contingency plans for possible nuclear runaways. Again, those who say they have been in contact with certain humans, also say the ETs have stated that we will be stopped short of ruining this planet with nuclear contamination. Hope the contactees are correct about that.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999

M/G et al - IMHO

It's not like I was trying to transgress the topic of this forum with theoretical realities. (The coincidence caught my attention.)

**But has ELECTRICITY ever been defined? No.**

It has only been 'described' and technologically utilized. It is still the most mysterious energy we know- and it will always remain that way.

But yes. It seems that the entire UFO/ALIEN/ET manifestation is based upon *weird* organic-lifeform-survival=energies warning us to get into Right Relationship with the BIO-SYSTEM - - ASAP.

VIA Jungian/Reichian orgonic-streamings from the realms of techno- dream Archetypes.

(Anyone into integrating Depth Level Psychology & leading edge Theoretical Physics? Oh well - probably not- )

Electricity. How can we discount the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, Schodingers Cat, Fuzzy Logic, Chaos Theory, etc? Aren't we TRYING TO enter into a newage Einstienian consciousness vs. old world Newtonian? Mind over matter, prayer makes a difference...etc.

The Collective Unconscious? All of us carries the cosmos inside us. Read David Bohm - wholistic physics. I love the book PHYSICS AS METAPHOR -(roger jones) - All measurement is Relative. That's a FACT.

Relationship with Electricity is the hotwire to bootstrap consciousness blossoming. Return us to Nature. The juice/the power. Understanding all connections. Unplugging. Returning to right relationship/holy/mystical/reverent. Spiral-organic- logic, not linear.

Indian Point??? metaphorholy-?

[[ 'and the lord SAID, let there be light...']]

(saidsadseedsowedsod)

sorry rick//offtopic... anyone care to define electricity?

-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999

Diane,

Wow, this one really got you off the couch and on your feet. Don't be depressed! There's a whole realm of spiritual belief that says we are only here in physical form to learn and advance. The soul survives. That sort of thing. Hop on *that* train for the rest of the ride, and remember that old military admonition: "Relax GI, it's only a drill." Not a test, you understand (Lane Core will understand), just a drill. ;-)

-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999

Diane,

Regarding the definition of electricity, I don't have it. But I think the guys and gals that operate those UFOs do. In fact I think they operate on electricity, using superconductivity technology and of course Y2k compliant (not simply ready) chips and other IT equipment. I don't personally know this to be true, but I got on good authority. Which may be why they sometimes hover over power lines and stations, getting a recharge from within the magnetic field lines of force. And sometimes they take too much too quickly and overload the system, tripping breakers and blowing transformers. Could be. But keep that to yourself, since there are many who debunk the entire UFO situation.

-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999

A serious event here. A stretch to call this Y2K related, but it is interesting, so count me "in" on the discussion. Have been off for a few days, so the only information I have access to is the NRC website and the media. I would caution prejudgements calling this an EDG failure however, since the preliminary information tends to indicate that intial indications tend to indicate that the problem may not be with the EDG per se, since EDG 23 tripped upon loading to bus 6A. This may have been a trip of electrical protective relaying due to a fault or some other type of problem on the bus itself, or it could be a problem with the protective relaying. We need more information to know for sure.

The NRC issued a press release, posted below: ---------------- From: http://www.nrc.gov/OPA/gmo/nrarcv/99-73i.htm

No. I-99-73 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 2, 1999 NRC SENDS INSPECTION TEAM TO INDIAN POINT 2 NUCLEAR POWER PLANT

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has dispatched a four-person team of inspectors from its Region I office in King of Prussia, Pa., to the Indian Point 2 nuclear power plant to look into the causes of and plant response to a reactor trip with complications that occurred on Tuesday and led to the declaration of an Unusual Event.

Known as an Augmented Inspection Team (AIT), it will be charged with learning the facts surrounding the event.

All of the AIT members should arrive at the Buchanan, N.Y., plant by sometime today. The team's findings will be available and made public about 30 days after completion of its on-site reviews.

At 2:30 p.m. on Tuesday, Indian Point 2 experienced a trip, or an automatic shutdown, after the receipt of a spurious signal in a reactor protection system. A few minutes after the trip, the plant's three emergency diesel generators, which provide power in the event of the loss of off-site power, automatically activated after they received a signal indicating that insufficient voltage was available to some plant safety systems.

However, one of the emergency diesel generators failed to load properly and that led to the eventual draindown of a battery that serves as a backup power source. In turn, the plant lost a number of its control room annunciators, or alarm panels. In response, plant operators declared an Unusual Event -- the lowest of four levels of emergency classification -- at about 9:55 p.m. The annunciators were restored at about 1:30 a.m. on Wednesday.

The reactor was stabilized and remains in hot shutdown. ------------------------

Regards,

-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999

Definition of electricity: It's that switch and plug on the wall.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 1999

Marcella, you got that right.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 1999

This is specifically aimed at the original poster..greenspun.com. As important as the "Nuke Scram" issue is to all of us and to the world's safety, your summation of the WACO incident and those who are concerned about it, is outrageous. If you investigated that happening more thoroughly, you would be very concerned about the disintegration of your Constitutional rights and freedom in this country. The evidence emerging suggests that the FBI, the army and the Justice Department are guilty of a lot more than a little white lie about use of incendiaries (which they claim did not cause the fire). Word from a reliable source has it that 10 helicopters armed to the teeth with rockets and other (normally war related) ammunition took off for WACO from the nearby military base. They returned with half their payload gone. So before you blow off the death of those 80 people, 30 of which were innocent children, reflect on the possibility of having your own freedom taken away. It all starts when we do not care about the rights of our fellow citizen. Here's a site for an excellent essay on the subject; worth reading. http://www.icehouse.net/lmstuter/page0249.htm

-- Anonymous, September 06, 1999

Link to picture of an EDG. Picture doesn't do it justice, they are much longer than in the photograph.

Typically, EDG's are run for at least an hour monthly or quarterly, and a 24 hour run is performed during the refueling (at least after major maintenance such as overhauls). One of the problems with EDG reliability is the way they are tested in the fast start mode (this is done since a fast start is needed in an emergency). If diesels were slow started and run for a time like commercial engines, the reliability would be improved. Fast starts are requred by the plants Technical Specifications (NRC regulatory mandate).

Regards,

-- Anonymous, September 07, 1999

FactFinder,

Thank you very much for that picture. That was indeed a nice fact you quickly found for us. :-) And, it's about the size and complexity that I was imagining it to be. I know what you mean about fast cold starts. Diesels really like to be "warmed up" for 5 minutes or so before being fully loaded. It's not good to have to start them up and immediately demand full power loading. Yet, I don't know what the answer is to that predicament. As you say, it could happen that way in a real emergency demand situation. Still, the more they practice using them that way the more likely it will be to damage the machine. Perhaps at least one of them should be on a "hot water" or coolant recycle system, where it is kept near operating temperature. I'm afraid it is way too late to start any modifications along that line though. You know, if the owners would only release enough money to the line crews that run and maintain these EDGs and let them come up with better ideas on reliability, it would go a long way. But again, I'm just dreaming now, aren't I?

-- Anonymous, September 08, 1999

Right. And my apologies to all. (FF:Promise last off-topic post herein)

However. Technicians are not necessarily Scientists. Most +real+ scientists have depended upon INTUITION, Instinct, an intangible sixth sense - - - greatly. Even dreams. There are countless examples.

And anyone who denies that - is denying their essential humaness. And own saving-grace INTUITION. Even if only to themselves.

Myth, religion, philosophy & theoretical science...

[including miracles, ufo's, psychic intuition, syncronicity, Tesla, eco-politics, deep ecology, Depth Level Psychology- Jung,Reich,etal-, High Physics, Theoretical Math, Inter-Discipline Systems Integration,etcetc]

...are NECESSARILY a part of all this.

It has been a very long time since a *major event* of such profound implications as y2k merged the Collective Consciousness of our country, and the world at large!!

(This situation is indeed *unprecedented* additionally because of the technological media which reinforces the Group Mind= exponentially!)

(Only scary stuff does that- really. This ain't no OJ/Lewinsky or Olympics. Group Consciousness is like a family- it comes together emotionally/spiritually in the face of disaster.)

So the situation evokes-&-enlivens all the major Archetypes of our civilization, our cultures, emotions, visions, larger than life - on every level - - personally, inter- and trans-personally. There is amplification.

Of everything wrong/right about us, about the ways we live, who we are, and forces us to embrace our beliefs, what we trust in, hold up as truth, and so on.

And logic is not merely logic. Any sucessful millionaire, manager, scientist, decision-maker DEPENDS upon much more than standard logic. They also use their right brain awareness, sometimes the best decisions are gleaned 'musically' or artfully - thru a personal truth vision that goes much farther than +linear logic modes+ (which are limited in time and dimension.) Numbers are numbers, but Geometry is Sacred.

I hope ALL decision-makers rely equally on the left-&right sides of brain.

Whether it be Chief Seattle's 'spirit' near them, or a dream vision clarifying an issue, or a nagging 'hunch' whilst listening to Mozart or AC/DC, -the important thing is the gut level synthesis into appropriate Action that doesn't get bogged down in the details. Right?

eh- to each her/his own. Thanks/sorry/no more off-topic! besides which- the little dudes from orion's belt are waiting on me- out front, I'm sirius!

-- Anonymous, September 09, 1999

The ET squad must have been on break the night of April 25-26, 1986.

If the meltdown of Chernobyl's Unit 4 didn't qualify for intervention, what would?

Any ET interest in our nuclear activities may be documentary only.

-- Anonymous, September 09, 1999