OK now, enough bitching and moaning about government abuse, time to get off of your ass and help to change the problem. Help take a bite out of crime. Shall we start by banding together and ending the IRS? Damn right.

The Linder Letter: The FairTax -- Fair Taxation For All Americans By U.S. Representative John Linder (R-GA-11)

Thursday, July 21, 1999

I have argued for years that April brings mixed emotions - the Braves opening day, the Masters, blooming dogwoods - and the dreaded burden and frustration of Income Tax Day on April 15th.

On July 14, 1999, I introduced the FairTax bill with Representative Collin Peterson (D-MN) in the House of Representatives to ensure that you will never again have to worry about confusing tax forms, stacks of tattered receipts, or traumatic IRS audits. My bill would create a national retail sales tax to replace all income taxes, payroll taxes, and estate taxes - eliminating the need for the Internal Revenue Service to exist.

Today, IRS agents employed to ensure "taxpayer compliance have the opportunity to abuse and harass American citizens. In addition, over 50% of Americans have to pay others to decipher the code and do their taxes for them. In an effort to show how complex the IRS code had become, Money magazine created a fictional American family and asked tax professionals to prepare an IRS tax return. Incredibly, every one of the tax professionals came up with a different tax total, and not one of the tax professionals calculated what Money believed to be the correct income tax. Even the IRS admits that 25% of the advice it gives to Americans calling their offices is not accurate.

After 86 years of income taxes in this country, the tax code has become so complex that even the agency assigned to oversee it cannot fully understand its complexities. That should indicate to all of us that it is time to try a new way to fund our government operations and programs.

The bill I introduced will not only eliminate your personal income tax, it will also do away with corporate income taxes, capital gains taxes, payroll taxes (including Social Security and Medicare taxes), the self-employment tax, and the death tax. In the place of these assorted burdens, the government would impose a sales tax on all retail sales of new goods and services. Most people are in high tax brackets today, but many of the taxes are hidden from view. For example, in addition to income taxes, all workers pay 8% in payroll taxes, and other taxes are hidden in every item we buy, costing us up to 20% more when we pay for the item at the checkout counter.

With the FairTax, all these hidden taxes are abolished. Additionally, every family would receive a rebate of the sales tax on spending up to the Federal poverty level, to be paid monthly in advance. This would allow a married family of four to spend $22,120 annually without having to pay a single penny in Federal taxes.

I am also excited that the FairTax would revolutionize our economy. Without the income taxs stifling impediment to growth, Americans will be able to save more, and businesses will be able to invest more. Individuals will have incentives to engage in capital formation - the real source of job creation and innovation - more than ever before. Businesses will have incentives to direct large amounts of capital back into the United States.

Because income and payroll taxes are embedded in the prices of every good and service we buy today, prices will drop by an average of 20%. Anytime you purchase a good from a store, its cost has already been adjusted by the seller to compensate for the added costs imposed on his business that result from being forced to fill out reams of paperwork and keep track of payroll and corporate income tax payments. Without these hassles, retailers can reduce prices across the board, so that even with the sales tax added to the final price of a good or service, you will end up paying about the same amount as you do today.

While my bill would eliminate the payroll taxes used to fund Social Security and Medicare benefits, the benefits themselves would not change in any way. The source of the revenue in the Social Security and Medicare trust funds would simply be sales taxes rather than payroll taxes.

The most important aspect of the FairTax is that it is fair for every American. You would have ultimate control over how much you wanted to spend and, therefore, how much you wanted to be taxed.

You should know that most lobbyists in Washington, D.C. are registered to lobby the tax code and - since they are the only people who apparently understand it - they will be fighting this proposal fiercely. Nonetheless, I am enthusiastic about this bill and its prospects for success, and we need you to join us in this fight. For more information, please call my office at (202) 225-4272. This is the beginning of an historic debate that will ensure that April 15th is just another spring day for you and your family.

For further info follow thehotlink so thoughtfully provide for you, free of charge.

C'mon gang, enough bitching, step up to the plate.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999

Answers

Personally, I want to know what we can do about Waco.

R.

-- Roland (nottelling@nowhere.com), September 01, 1999.

Rolly

Agreed. A sad chapter in American history, whether Koresh and his followers were guilty of crimes or not. But I don't think that you are going to be able to take a first hand role in changing what happened to those folks, since it is the past. And NO, that doesn't mean that they should be forgotten, it means that you need to do what you can to change the way our government works, and it needs to be done within the system, else you will end up like they did.

C'mon guy, help out here, it's a start.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.

No. There are a lot of new reveleations coming out, the re-look at the Waco episode is very volatile and very dynamic, with many open issues: Will there be a full blown new investigation? Will all the alleged abuses be considered? Will it turn into a whitewash? Most importantly, the right of people to "think differently", legally possess firearms, and be safe from government intrusion is directly Y2K related.

People on this forum should be encouraged to discuss this very Y2K-related issue.

Ironically, if the IRS cannot collect taxes next year because of their non-Y2K compliant computer systems, a "flat tax" or "national sales tax" or similar type scheme may be the only choice available to the IRS. Who knows? More importantly, right at this particular time, who cares?

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), September 01, 1999.

Doesn't stand a chance. Too many people like me preparing taxes for the mentally lazy and have a vested interest in continuing the shearing. But I am hoping for a 10 !!! from Y2k and this is one of the rackets fostered on the responsible citizen that should go away. Yea, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

-- taxman (1234@56781.com), September 01, 1999.

Jack

I'm not discouraging Waco disscussion, I've participated in them. All I asking is that folks take a couple of baby steps towards throwing off intrusive government.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 01, 1999.

Deedah,

Thank you very much. This is really interesting, and I'll look into it further.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 01, 1999.

Waco was possible because THEY HAVE YOUR MONEY. The IRS is the collection agency for the banking system, which runs the government.

There is no need for at least 95% of you RIGHT NOW to pay "income" tax. Are YOU in a "revenue taxable activity"?

"Whoever has the gold makes the rules." The government has most of your "gold".

Waco is merely a symptom of big government gone wild. What makes possible big government is sheeple. You aren't one, are you?
See:

http://www.ottoskinner.com
http://www.edrivera.com

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 01, 1999.

Unca D -- as far as I'm concerned; it IS on topic. What kind of world do you all want to live in, post Y2K?

-- A (A@AisA.com), September 01, 1999.

A- You are right. Whilst reading a book recently titled "How to avoid paying income tax" or something like that, this came to my attention. Apparently when the income tax idea came about it had to be approved by a majority of states. Well the gubmint managed to sneak by with a "majority" of like 2 states! Lots of people don't know that this tax is ILLEGAL. Now you do, as if that might possibly help...

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), September 01, 1999.

Well here are my comments . I inserted them in the description of the Fair Tax.

The FairTaxSM is a national retail sales tax on new goods and services at the final point of sale for personal consumption above the poverty level. Used goods are not taxed. The FairTax is the best choice for all Americans. It will eliminate the complexity and injustice of our current system entirely by repealing the federal income tax and all federal payroll taxes. The FairTax will replace them with a simple 23% federal retail sales tax on new goods and services. <23% ?! That's highway robbery! If the government only did the things the constitution authorizes it to do, we would need 3% plus tarriffs!>

The FairTax Will: Repeal the federal income tax, including capital gains taxes. Repeal corporate and self-employment taxes. Repeal all payroll taxes including Social Security and Medicare taxes. Repeal all estate and gift taxes. Repeal the 16th amendment to the Constitution that authorized taxation of income. Provide a universal rebate equal to the sales tax paid on essential goods and services to ensure that no American pays taxes on necessities. Impose a 23% tax inclusive rate on the purchase of new goods and services in the U.S. The FairTax Won't: Cause prices to rise. Decrease government revenue. Unfairly burden the poor or elderly. Unfairly burden retailers. Be structured as a VAT. Provide tax loopholes of any kind.

Fat_C

-- Fat_C (f@chance.com), September 02, 1999.

Darn HTML... let's try this again...

Well here are my comments [in brackets]. I inserted them in the description of the Fair Tax.

The FairTaxSM is a national retail sales tax on new goods and services at the final point of sale for personal consumption above the poverty level. [How can it be "fair" if everyboby doesn't pay the same amount for the same services?] Used goods are not taxed. [Good! I love garage sales!] The FairTax is the best choice for all Americans. It will eliminate the complexity and injustice of our current system entirely by repealing the federal income tax and all federal payroll taxes. The FairTax will replace them with a simple 23% federal retail sales tax on new goods and services. [23% ?! That's highway robbery! If the government only did the things the constitution authorizes it to do, we would need 3% plus tarriffs!]

The FairTax Will: Repeal the federal income tax, including capital gains taxes. Repeal corporate and self-employment taxes. [Why shouldn't corporations get taxed? Don't they get government services? Of course they do... they are probably behind this!] Repeal all payroll taxes including Social Security and Medicare taxes. Repeal all estate and gift taxes. Repeal the 16th amendment to the Constitution that authorized taxation of income. [This takes the ratification of two-thirds of the states.] Provide a universal rebate equal to the sales tax paid on essential goods and services to ensure that no American pays taxes on necessities. [Why?] Impose a 23% tax inclusive rate on the purchase of new goods and services in the U.S. The FairTax Won't: Cause prices to rise. [Except used goods prices...] Decrease government revenue. [It will INCREASE it] Unfairly burden the poor or elderly. [DAMMIT! Why is it UNFAIR for everybody to pay for the services they get?] Unfairly burden retailers. [Here is the main benefit for those behind this] Be structured as a VAT. Provide tax loopholes of any kind. [What about non citizens? What about exports? What about foreign goods? What about the military? What about the citizens that live overseas and get government services from the US? I think this is a scam by the big businesses. Let's start one that requires all taxes to be paid by companies and corporations instead of individuals.]

Fat_C

-- Fat_C (f@chance.com), September 02, 1999.

Fair questions.

The FairTaxSM is a national retail sales tax on new goods and services at the final point of sale for personal consumption above the poverty level. [How can it be "fair" if everyboby doesn't pay the same amount for the same services?] Not everyone pays the same amount in taxes now.

Used goods are not taxed. [Good! I love garage sales!] As I understand it, used goods are exempt because they will, after this plan is in place, have already been taxed once.

The FairTax is the best choice for all Americans. It will eliminate the complexity and injustice of our current system entirely by repealing the federal income tax and all federal payroll taxes. The FairTax will replace them with a simple 23% federal retail sales tax on new goods and services. [23% ?! That's highway robbery! If the government only did the things the constitution authorizes it to do, we would need 3% plus tarriffs!] True, but if you are an average tax payer you are hit for 28% plus another 7% for SS (35%!)now on EVERY CENT YOU EARN! Under this plan you would only pay 23%taxes on what you SPEND. Saving and investments (etc) are exempt. That is better for us all.

The FairTax Will: Repeal the federal income tax, including capital gains taxes. Repeal corporate and self-employment taxes. [Why shouldn't corporations get taxed? Don't they get government services? Of course they do... they are probably behind this!] Corporations pass on their tax burden in the form of higher prices to consumers, lower returns to investors, or lower wages to workers. Under the AFT plan, if income earned in a corporation by owners or employees is spent on consumption goods, The FairTax is paid. But, if the money is retained in the business and reinvested to create jobs, build factories, or develop new technologies, no tax is due. This is the most fair, productive tax system possible. Free market competition will do the rest. (From the Fair tax website)

Repeal all payroll taxes including Social Security and Medicare taxes. Repeal all estate and gift taxes. Repeal the 16th amendment to the Constitution that authorized taxation of income. [This takes the ratification of two-thirds of the states.] I agree, and it must be done lest we end up with both.

Provide a universal rebate equal to the sales tax paid on essential goods and services to ensure that no American pays taxes on necessities. [Why?] Ummmm, fairness? Poor folks aren't highly taxed now, that doesn't change.

Impose a 23% tax inclusive rate on the purchase of new goods and services in the U.S. The FairTax Won't: Cause prices to rise. [Except used goods prices...] Decrease government revenue. [It will INCREASE it] This plan is designed to be revenue neutral.

Unfairly burden the poor or elderly. [DAMMIT! Why is it UNFAIR for everybody to pay for the services they get?] Unfairly burden retailers. [Here is the main benefit for those behind this] Be structured as a VAT. Provide tax loopholes of any kind. [What about non citizens? They will pay taxes on goods and services, where as now they don't contribute a cent. What about exports? What about foreign goods? What about the military? What about the citizens that live overseas and get government services from the US? I think this is a scam by the big businesses. Let's start one that requires all taxes to be paid by companies and corporations instead of individuals.] Fat_C Well if it is a "scam" it's a pretty darned good one for everybody. No more April 15th worries, no more piles of receipts and tax forms, no more worries about getting the dreaded TAX AUDIT. No more IRS abuse of taxpayers. Finally, and this is the best part, people will SEE JUST HOW MUCH GOVERNMENT COSTS THEM! Maybe then they will get off of their asses and do something about reducing the size of it.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 02, 1999.

[How can it be "fair" if everyboby doesn't pay the same amount for the same services?] Not everyone pays the same amount in taxes now. ---Soooo, why is this called a FAIR Tax?

[23% ?! That's highway robbery! If the government only did the things the constitution authorizes it to do, we would need 3% plus tarriffs!] True, but if you are an average tax payer you are hit for 28% plus another 7% for SS (35%!)now on EVERY CENT YOU EARN! Under this plan you would only pay 23%taxes on what you SPEND. Saving and investments (etc) are exempt. That is better for us all. ----Better, yes. Good? Just? NO.

[Why shouldn't corporations get taxed? Don't they get government services? Of course they do... they are probably behind this!] Corporations pass on their tax burden in the form of higher prices to consumers, lower returns to investors, or lower wages to workers. Under the AFT plan, if income earned in a corporation by owners or employees is spent on consumption goods, The FairTax is paid. But, if the money is retained in the business and reinvested to create jobs, build factories, or develop new technologies, no tax is due. This is the most fair, productive tax system possible. Free market competition will do the rest. (From the Fair tax website) ---They certainly do pass on those tax burdens. However, there is not much evidence that the free market will pass on the savings. Bought any shoes lately? The savings will be passed on to investers and executives, as usual.

Provide a universal rebate equal to the sales tax paid on essential goods and services to ensure that no American pays taxes on necessities. [Why?] Ummmm, fairness? Poor folks aren't highly taxed now, that doesn't change. ---Poor doesn't necessarily mean incapable. Sometimes it means "lazy". Many times it means "drug dealer". Means testing is needed for "fairness". "Poor" and "Elderly" are not descriptions of people that can't pay their own way. Most elderly can, and most poor can.

I didn't notice any details on how the 23% could be lowered or raised. Does it require a 2/3 popular vote to increase it? Roes it go down automatically when revenues are excessive?

Fat_C

-- Fat_C (f@chance.com), September 02, 1999.

[23% ?! That's highway robbery! If the government only did the things the constitution authorizes it to do, we would need 3% plus tarriffs!] True, but if you are an average tax payer you are hit for 28% plus another 7% for SS (35%!)now on EVERY CENT YOU EARN! Under this plan you would only pay 23%taxes on what you SPEND. Saving and investments (etc) are exempt. That is better for us all. ----Better, yes. Good? Just? NO. Oh, I see, since it doesn't solve every tax injustice that your mind can conceive, better isn't good enough? Getting the IRS off your back counts for nothing? Being in charge of your tax burden by planning your expenses is no good? Saving for retirement without worrying about tax shelter gymnastics doesn't help? Please say that sometimes better is better, but maybe not perfect.

They certainly do pass on those tax burdens. However, there is not much evidence that the free market will pass on the savings. Bought any shoes lately? The savings will be passed on to investers and executives, as usual. That's a strange statement. Does socialism pass on more saving to consumers than the free market does? And if some savings are passed on to investers or executives, the money will be taxed when THEY SPEND IT! Unless, of course they invest it. That creates new jobs and industries.

Poor doesn't necessarily mean incapable. Sometimes it means "lazy". Many times it means "drug dealer". And just how much income taxes do drug dealers pay now? "Oh, Mr. Jones, I see here on your schedule C that your crack profits went up this year." This plan is a definate improvement in that dept.

I didn't notice any details on how the 23% could be lowered or raised. Does it require a 2/3 popular vote to increase it? Roes it go down automatically when revenues are excessive? I saw these Reps on C-Span. From my recollection it is left to the elected representatives to do as the voters wish in that dept. The tax system we have now is hopelessly corrupted and confusing. Tax increases and pork barrel favoritism is easily disguised by the miriad of tax laws. OTOH, it is very hard for politicians to hide an increase from 23% to 24% from the voters. It gets things out into the open, which is better for us all.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 02, 1999.

HTML help? Anyone? Anyone at all? Better now?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 02, 1999.

They certainly do pass on those tax burdens. However, there is not much evidence that the free market will pass on the savings. Bought any shoes lately? The savings will be passed on to investers and executives, as usual. That's a strange statement. Does socialism pass on more saving to consumers than the free market does? And if some savings are passed on to investers or executives, the money will be taxed when THEY SPEND IT! Unless, of course they invest it. That creates new jobs and industries.

Poor doesn't necessarily mean incapable. Sometimes it means "lazy". Many times it means "drug dealer". And just how much income taxes do drug dealers pay now? "Oh, Mr. Jones, I see here on your schedule C that your crack profits went up this year." This plan is a definate improvement in that dept.

I didn't notice any details on how the 23% could be lowered or raised. Does it require a 2/3 popular vote to increase it? Roes it go down automatically when revenues are excessive? I saw these Reps on C-Span. From my recollection it is left to the elected representatives to do as the voters wish in that dept. The tax system we have now is hopelessly corrupted and confusing. Tax increases and pork barrel favoritism is easily disguised by the miriad of tax laws. OTOH, it is very hard for politicians to hide an increase from 23% to 24% from the voters. It gets things out into the open, which is better for us all.

Had enough yet? I like self talk. I'm a good boy, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like me.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 02, 1999.

Define necessity. I consider everything I buy to be a necessity.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), September 02, 1999.

Go to the link, there is a lot of info there about the particulars. In the meanwhile, try to visualize every penny you earn as being YOURS, not just the 60-odd percent you're allowed to keep now.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), September 02, 1999.

Why give a rebate each year to return taxes collected on "necessities"? Just reduce the 23% to 20 or whatever, and eliminate the beaurocracy that a return will entail...

-- R.A. Mann (ramann@hotmail.com), September 02, 1999.

Didn't you take economics, dude? That would create a regressive tax, in that the poor would be paying a higher percent of their income in taxes, since they wouldn't be able to put any money into savings.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), September 03, 1999.

IMHO, everyone pays the same amount of taxes now......TOO MUCH.

growlin'...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 03, 1999.