(snip)

Q: How about the effects of millennialism? A: What were looking at now is the effect of the millennium on some of these particular groups, particularly the right-wing militia groups. Looking at the literature from Christian Identity, for example, its clear it believes that the world is on the verge of a violent apocalyptic struggle between God and Satan  a battle to be fought between Aryans and Satans offspring  Jews, nonwhites and any entity aligned with such groups, including the U.S. government. And some of them, from the intelligence were getting, are starting point to the millennium as the time when the world will explode in this battle. Youve also got the militia groups, a lot of right-wing extremists are saying too that the Y2K computer crisis may be the final fuse that leads to the New World Order.

(snip)

Enjoy the whole article here: http://msnbc.com/news/272286.asp

-- Homer Beanfang (Bats@inbellfry.com), August 31, 1999

Answers

Intersting terminology employed here, Homer, and problematic for all Christians. Since it is a given that all of the unwashed masses generally hear a word and immediately employ a stereotype to fit the bill, I find it startling that some sort of clarification isn't in the offing with regards to the word 'Christian'. I am a Christian, and see no similarities with those types of 'Christians' who'd seek to spark violent outbursts at the end of the year OR who state that the Bible in some way has racist themes running throughout it.

Thanks to Louie, Janet and the boys at the FBI/Atty.General's office, it seems almost as if Christian denotes the need to be watched by big brother.

-- Bad Company (johnny@shootingstar.com), August 31, 1999.

ok, just got off a spaceship from Mars and started reading this chat group. This is what I see: 1) Alot of talk about how dangerous your president is to most of you. Seems like alot of you would like to get rid of him one way or another before y2k. Your FBI's job is to make sure you dont do that so you people in this group probably scare the FBI. They will probably be watching out for you people.

2) Alot of you talk about guns, guns, guns. On my planet we dont carry guns so your FBI is probably wondering why people who are so worried about Y2k are also getting alot of guns. YOU people are probably scaring your FBI. Some of you talk, maybe kidding, that you will shoot on site or something like that. Scares me, dont see why it wouldnt scare the FBI.

3) Alot of you talk that this Y2k thing is going to be TEOTWAWKI and many of you quote the bible or talk about Jesus. Most people on my planet are of all different religions so all this end of world talk from Christians scares us, probably scares your FBI too. Will you try to use GOD or JESUS as some kind of focal point for your actions during the Y2k rollover.

4) Many of you talk about how things will be better after "the die off". That scares a new visitor like me, bet it scares your FBI.

5) Many of you talk about re-working government to all new laws with a new monetary system and it follows a "right wing agenda", what ever that is so its scaring me, probably scares your FBI too.

I am glad I came here, judging from the input here it seems like alot of Y2k people are more scarier than this y2k thing itself. Scares me, likely it will scare your FBI too.

If you wonder why your FBI is keeping an eye on you, its probably because you people scare them. You do scare me. Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to change any of you, but if you want to know why your FBI is probably watching you, its because you are a pretty scary bunch.

Think about it.

-- martian (martian@mars.com), August 31, 1999.

Dang! There goes my theory that all the Tinfoils came from Mars...

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), August 31, 1999.

Couldn't have said it better myself, martian. Unfortunately --

1. It's a pretty small minority here who are actually into the things that you mention, though discussion of these things is common. Most of the people here are concerned about that stuff, but there probably isn't anyone here actually preparing to participate in anything untoward. As a response to violence upon onesself, yes, there are many who will respond with force. I believe it is the fear of this that prompts much of this discussion.

2. The media, and by extension much of the populace, is grouping people who are concerned about and preparing for possible Y2K related problems in with Aryan whackoes and people who are loving the idea of starting a race war, bringing down the government, or whatever.

I believe that this is being done for a reason. If you are a reasonable, life-loving little martian, you certainly don't want to be thought of in the same way as a Christian Identity member, and the minute you buy a 55 gallon water container, that's what the neighbors will think, at the prompting of the media. If too many people start preparing in a big way for service disruptions, all hell will break loose in the economy. There go the stock prices! So, the propaganda campaign is very slick and sophisticated.

Don't let the rabble-rousing here get to you, little martian buddy. Most of here are nice little earthings who would not choose to hurt a fly, unless necessary, and who see a broken system about to shatter.

Got any ideas from the red planet for how to minimize the damage?

-- (dot@dot.dot), August 31, 1999.

"YOU people"? Careful martian - that's the kind of talk that put Ross Perot in the hot seat. :)

Are there folks that have gone mentally overboard on this forum? Yes. Is this forum a breeding ground for kooks that are hell bent to overthrow the US government? Hardly.

Don't confuse the ramblings of a few extremists with the general message of this forum, which is "The future is unpredictable, but the evidence in hand says its gonna be rough. Prepare." I am on record as saying

• The Y2K problem is secondary to the economic bubble problem
• Clinton isn't half as bad as he's made out to be
• If martial law is imposed, obey it
• Most of the conspiracy theories discussed on the net are a blend of BS and synchronicity
• UFOs are probably not alien spacecraft
• Religion can sometimes get in the way of common sense
• The probability of a recession next year is 30%, of a depression 50% and of "something worse" 20%

but since I also post information that is gloomy but true, most pollies label me a tinfoil wrapped lunatic. Go figure.

-- a (a@a.a), August 31, 1999.

Oh I almost forgot:

• I will leave more money in the bank over rollover than the pollyanna-in-chief Flint

-- a (a@a.a), August 31, 1999.

Martian... if things are so good where you are, why do you keep abducting us for breeding purposes? And what is it about the crop circles anyway.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 31, 1999.

After Waco, the FBI is afraid of christians who own guns and believe in God and the Constitution? I think it should be the other way around. You're saying that when the U.S. Army is turned against the population and our neighbors children are burned to death, we should just bite our lip, keep quiet, and not worry the easily-excitable FBI: "Now honey, he only beats you because you bother him. Just be quiet, don't remind him of how he beat you last, and he probably won't do it again. And none of that religious talk - he doesn't like that."

If you think the massacre of 84 men, women and children by the FBI/ATF/DeltaForce at Waco is a "conspiracy theory" you really HAVE been living on Mars.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 31, 1999.

To your list (a@a.a), I would add:

Vote in all elections. People who do not vote should not complain about who is elected or their policies.

If you don't like the system, try working to change it. Get involved in a political campaign working for a candidate. Volunteer your time. Work at a polling/voting place. Work to get out the vote. Do something....anything! If you don't work to change the system, don't complain about the system.

The FBI and law enforcement are human. Treat them with respect. They do a hard job with few rewards. Our world is a better place because of them.

Every human life is precious, they are someones son, father, brother, husband, daughter, mother, sister, wife, friend or neighbor....don't wish for any deaths, EVER!

-- Lynn Ratcliffe (mcgrew@ntr.net), August 31, 1999.

Lynn: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 31, 1999.

Martian,

What do you think about our goofy president pardoning a bunch of Puerto Rican terrorists. Makes sense doesn't it.

-- Homer Beanfang (Bats@inbellfry.com), August 31, 1999.

And I haven't seen anyone on this forum threaten, even indirectly, to harm the President. I HAVE seen this before as a bogus charge, as on this thread, leveled by the President's defenders at his detractors. I believe the President should be impeached, and face criminal charges for treason. Does it follow that I wish to harm him, personally? I want justice to be done. To imply that the FBI or anyone else is entitled to harass me because I loath and despise Clinton and wish that he were in jail where he belongs, would be insulting if it weren't so stupid.

Am I "hell bent to overthrow the government?" No more so than Pat Buchanan or George Will (neither of whom I agree with on every issue, but at least they aren't socialists, or in the pay of the Communist Chinese and/or the Anglo-American banking establishment).

I believe there is NO EXCUSE for turning the military against the citizens of the United States. We should NOT "obey martial law" any more than we should obey the occupational government of a foreign power. If our government violates it's own Constitution, there is a remedy for that. The first phase of that remedy is legal, and taking place now, in the new investigation of what happened at Waco. But that is not the limit of the accountablity of goverment to it's people. This isn't some stupid "Aryan Nations" ideology; it's written unambiguously into the Constitution itself, and further explicated in the Federalist Papers. The association of conservatives with right wing radicals is imbecilic - but it seems to be working on morons like you who simply believe what you're told.

All of you people who think that Waco, or the Chinese purchase of Presidential and DNC influence is "conspiracy theory" are too stupid or lazy even to read the mainstream news - so why should we bother with your asinine comparisons with UFO nonsense?

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 31, 1999.

And I haven't seen anyone on this forum threaten, even indirectly, to harm the President. I HAVE seen this before as a bogus charge, as on this thread, leveled by the President's defenders at his detractors. I believe the President should be impeached, and face criminal charges for treason. Does it follow that I wish to harm him, personally? I want justice to be done. To imply that the FBI or anyone else is entitled to harass me because I loath and despise Clinton and wish that he were in jail where he belongs, would be insulting if it weren't so stupid.

Am I "hell bent to overthrow the government?" No more so than Pat Buchanan or George Will (neither of whom I agree with on every issue, but at least they aren't socialists, or in the pay of the Communist Chinese and/or the Anglo-American banking establishment).

I believe there is NO EXCUSE for turning the military against the citizens of the United States. We should NOT "obey martial law" any more than we should obey the occupational government of a foreign power. If our government violates it's own Constitution, there is a remedy for that. The first phase of that remedy is legal, and taking place now, in the new investigation of what happened at Waco. But that is not the limit of the accountablity of goverment to it's people. This isn't some stupid "Aryan Nations" ideology; it's written unambiguously into the Constitution itself, and further explicated in the Federalist Papers. The association of conservatives with right wing radicals is imbecilic - but it seems to be working on morons like you who simply believe what you're told.

All of you people who think that Waco, or the Chinese purchase of Presidential and DNC influence is "conspiracy theory" are too stupid or lazy even to read the mainstream news - so why should we bother with your asinine comparisons with UFO nonsense? You're no better than the journalists who associate Y2k preparation with "millennial hysteria."

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 31, 1999.

according to you, the current FBI might have been scared of the likes of ol' Tom Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Al Hamilton, Paullie Revere, Pat Henry, Johnny Locke, Adam smith, Georgie Washington, and a bunch of others who thought like them;

would YOU be scared of them, too, Martian?

-- Perry Arnett (pjarnett@pdqnet.net), August 31, 1999.

Lynn,

The worst part about Waco is that it dishonors those agents of the FBI and the ATF who ARE honorable people. I am painfully aware of the high level of truly noble character in the rank and file of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. But their leaders are lying, murderous criminals; that much is now clear for all to see. Their reputation is out the window; the leadership trashed it, and it will take decades or more to repair. That's the worst part of this, that criminals are going to gain. In future, when the FBI offers evidence against them, they're going to be able to say: "Look, the FBI lied about Waco, here, here, and here. They concealed evidence. They stopped gathering evidence when too much exculpatory evidence started showing up. Now how can the court accept their testimony against me?" Many criminal cases will be lost, because top-level FBI tried to cover their evil asses, and the agent in the field will have to eat it. This is why some people continue to lie and do damage control, even now - they see that the loss is bigger than just one scandal. I say it's too late. The truth is out, we haven't controlled the damage, and we need to begin healing it.

You might appreciate a viewing of the video "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." It's in most video stores.

And as for your statement that "If you don't like the system, try working to change it," well, I am. Everything you said. But you seem to be implying that we shouldn't speak out as well as work to elect honest representatives who respect the Constitution and the People. I counter that we need to use our 1st Amendment rights; it's "use it or lose it," in spades. Communicating and freely assembling is as much a part of the political process as voting.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 31, 1999.

Liberty, they are probably watching you like a hawk.

-- splonk (splonk@dinkdonk.com), August 31, 1999.

Splonk,

Let them. They have a duty to, if they think there's some chance that I might be contemplating a federal crime. I'm glad they are there, though the waste of their time (and our money) would be regrettable.

Now, if they would only focus so intently UP THEIR OWN CHAIN OF COMMAND. There's more damage being done to the Federal Government and the Presidency by the murder and lies from the top than any truth-telling I might do. And what about the Chinese Espionage and Chinese Campaign Finance scandals? And the latest news about Clinton ramming through an LA port base for COSCO, the Company owned by the Chinese Communist Army... This worries me a lot more than the right wing fringe that CNN and NPR would have you biting your nails over. The militias and the FBI are in fact allied against that racist b.s., which is never going to play on Broadway, let's face it. The way it's looking now, we'll soon be practicing Chinese Marxism - but thank Mao we're safe from those awful skinheads who were about to take us over!

No, I think the rank and file of the FBI are as disgusted by all this as I am. If only because they ultimately have to carry the burden.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 31, 1999.

Martian, for you, I would recommend reading Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich for some interesting parallels to the current stage of American history. Hitler was "elected " in 1932 with a minority of the vote. It took him about seven years to staff the German bureaucracy with loyalists and NAZIS: police, military, civil servants etc. He requred a group to blame all problems on: Jews against whom he directed constant abuse and propaganda. In order to consolidate his power, he staged bombings and other "terrorist" incidents including murders,vandalism, riots, and finally the Reichtag fire. He assumed final total power by running over a weak and disorganized opposition in the Reichtag which could not muster the courage to oppose him because he held files on their own dirt. He also commanded an extra-legal cadre of enforcers to terrorize and murder opponents. Sounding familiar yet? When a leader seeks to assume complete control, he MUST have a group to demonize. Telling outrageous lies is no problem, in fact it's much easier than telling the truth. Finally, economic desperation must reign i.e. hyper-inflation and depression in Germany circa 1930s. And it's coming on us here like a runnaway train.

Enter Y2k, and you understand why Bill Clinton has adopted fix on failure. He is planning on a "third term " alright, one of unlimited duration. Y2k IS more than a mere computer glitch. It's the ON switch for a Frankenstein's monster of political oppression. Now go read The Secret Life of Bill Clinton and educate yourself. '

-- doktorbob (downsouth@dixie.com), August 31, 1999.

Thank you doktorbob. See you in camp - or in the sweet hereafter, whichever comes first.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), August 31, 1999.

Doktorbob, sounds like Ronald Reagan and Hilter had alot of similarities too.

You cant believe Clinton is going to pull a Hitler do you?.

No wonder you are so afraid of Clinton. You brainwashed yourself.

-- terry (terry@yourplace.com), August 31, 1999.

terry: You sure do talk funny.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 31, 1999.

Terry:

Filegate: hundreds of FBI files on congressmen, others, accessed by the Whitehouse. On Clinton's watch. No one knows what dirt they have on Congress, Judges, Newspeople, Republican opposition...

Waco and Oklahoma City: Both left with great unanswered questions which were actively supressed; both scenes of national alarm and disaster which resulted in greater willingness to suspend our rights in the "fight against terrorism;" the evidence at both scenes bulldozed -destroyed- just days after the event in question. Both on Clinton's watch.

I don't remember any "Regan death list," listing suspicious deaths and suicides of close contacts of Regan. There is such a list for Clinon. On it: the only four federal agents who were killed at Waco, four former Clinton bodyguards. And many, many, more...

I don't remember Regan going after any demonized group. He didn't like Communists, but he didn't make them into an "evil in our midst," and send tanks and helicopters and armies of federal agents after them. Clinton is the mirror-image of McCarthyism, telling us that the extreme right threatens our very safety; he is race-baiting, to further undermine everyone's freedoms. Clinton tried to justify Waco with this crap (in fact, if the FBI's COINTELPRO operations are any indication, the right is being whipped up into a frenzy for the very purpose of discrediting it, and justifying the use of force against it; this is what happened to the "Black Panthers" and the "Weather Underground" in the sixties. These groups were infiltrated by agents provocateurs - who promoted violence and other embarassing moves).

And Regan wasn't a career-long recipient of money from the Communist Chinese, and didn't sell influence to them, as did Clinton. Even now, Clinton is pushing for a COSCO (ChiCom Army Owned) shipping port in Los Angeles. An earlier attempt failed at San Diego, due to public outcry. I mean, WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH THAT?! Why isn't he charged with treason? Where's the outrage? It's not receiveing the coverage it deserves in the mainstream, that's for sure.

So there are some significant differences between Reagan and Clinton RE the historical analogy that doktorbob offers us.

You can find out more about all of this by surfing "topics" at freerepublic.com.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.com), August 31, 1999.

Martian- People are talking about scary things on this forum because y2k is a scary thing-perhaps more so to some of us than to you.

Y2k causes us to have to think about things that aren't normal in normal lives. Like guns. Y2k has caused us to think about being unable to call 911, social breakdown, rioting, looting and things like that. DO I want to stand guard over my place 24/7 with a gun? Of course not! I'd rather have a safe, orderly society. But lots of folks have started thinking about this who never have before, hence talk of guns and gun control, although they are somewhat OT. The same with martial law. If I stock up for my family, will some guy with a uniform AND a gun come take it? I hope not, but y2k causes us to think about this, hence the discussion of mistrust of government. I actually doubt the FBI spends much time here. For one thing, they probably understand that the types of people who sound off in tiny forums like this one aren't the kind who are really dangerous, it's that quiet boy next door who hardly ever speaks to anyone "He was such a NICE boy, so polite". Also, if WE scare them, they must be swamped by the THOUSANDS of posts out there that are vastly more rabid and wierd than anything I've seen here, try talk.politics.guns or misc.activism.militia for some real doozies.

Besides, if y2k breaks out bad, they will have so many real terrorists etc. to deal with that suspicious internet postings will be a low priority. Anyone who is planning any millenial mayhem isn't coming to greenspun.com to tell us about it. AS for the the religious wierdos etc, well, they're everywhere, and something about a constitution comes to mind.........

Rest easy, Martian, none of us armchair speculaters is coming to invade your planet.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 01, 1999.