man killed for y2k moneygreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
Last night on local tv I saw a story (I'm sorry I didn't get all the details, maybe someone else did) about a Mexican national who went to Mexico and drew out his life's savings because he's worried about Y2K. He brings it home (here) and puts it under his bed. For some reason late one night the cops break into his house. He doesn't speak english and thinks it is a home-invasion robbery. He is kneeling in fear next to his wife at bedside and reaches under the bed to get the money to give to the "robbers" and is shot in the back. The cops say they were justified, they thought he was going for a weapon. I swear the above is true. Did anyone else see it?
-- J.R. (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 1999
Your kidding, right?
See : http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001JEf
-- eyes_open (email@example.com), August 27, 1999.
Absolutely not! I wouldn't kid about it. I think it was ABC but not sure. I am constantly changing channels so I don't know.
-- J.R. (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 1999.
OT/"Law Enforcement(?)" SWAT team storms innocent family, killing grandad in the back; LA TIMES
Really sad, unbelievable. We'd go after every possible legal recourse to punish those shooter-bomber-grenaders. Bet they haven't given the $$ back to the family either.
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (email@example.com), August 27, 1999.
After Waco, we are shocked by this?
I just heard on NPR that "some white supremacist groups" believe "rumors on the internet" that claim the ATF deliberately torched the Waco compound and fired on the occupants as they tried desperately to escape. Gee, it's not as if there were a (decidedly non-racist) Academy Award nominated video: "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," available at your local video rental store that makes the same claims using photographic evidence and expert testimony. I mean, millions of people have seen this by now and know what the government did to those people, AND THE MEDIA ARE STILL LYING, and insulting black and jewish people by trying to associate those who know the truth with racist groups. They must think black and jewish people, and others concerned with racial justice, are pretty gullible. See the film. Know the truth.
-- Liberty (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 1999.
he sooner the new WACO film comes out, with more EVIDENCE, the better.
Oh yeah, Reno and Clinton knew "nothing" about it...
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 27, 1999.
It's NPR. Consider the source.
-- eyes_open (email@example.com), August 27, 1999.
Watching the government burn dissidents alive on international TV was a watershed event for many people. At best it said, "We are so incompetent, we don't even care, we can be even more incompetent without trying hard." At worst it said, "We are the US government and will not hesitate to burn your children alive and you with them if you cross us too much." I remember I was working at my computer, and a friend who was watching CNN said, "the building is on fire." I said, "The people got out didn't they?" He said, "I don't think so, I didn't see them." To which I intelligently replied, "Surely the government wouldn't burn it down while they were still inside, would they?" And we just looked at each other, and then turned back to the screen, and I was thinking, "there will be bitter fruit from this for years to come."
Then along came April 19, 1995, and I was in a classroom in Oklahoma City and heard a big boom, which we thought was a truck crash outside. Somebody said after the class, "A bomb exploded at the federal building." But I didn't believe it, thought it was a rumor.
However, times aren't what they were for authoritarian government types. Technology gives them a lot of advantages, but it also gives the good guys some ground too. And there's enough due process, competition, and federalism hard coded into the system that there remains hope. (Not to mention all those Celtic genes scattered around.) Now, if we could just get a few cooperation add on applications and hardware (y2k compliant modules for our social systems).
This is a message to the Bad Guys everywhere. Beware: your deeds may yet come to light.
And it is interesting that this latest evidence of the propensity of the United States government to lie to cover up its sins comes out in this the last summer of the century, during the end game of the Y2k countdown.
One final note: the government apparently fears these revelations, because as has already been noted, they are attempting to smear those who disbelieve the government's explanations of the Waco massacre as racists. I may be many things, but racist and klansman I am not.
Archbishop Oscar Romero Catholic Worker House, Oklahoma City
-- robert waldrop (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 1999.
JR, if you ever encounter evil police, don't do anything which would cause them to use their weapons on you.
Exercise extreme caution and control.
In the United States, they don't shoot until they're sure they can get away with it.
-- Randolph (email@example.com), August 27, 1999.
Not for nuthin here gang, but I know far more good cops than bad. And I also know there are some of the same in the ATF, DEA etc. Before you go on with some big speach about jack booted thugs think about what it's like elsewhere. Our system is pretty damn good here. I've been overseas. I've talked to people in African nations where whole villages went to church one Sunday and they we're massacred for real, not because they were being served a warrant, but because they were different from the tribe who wanted to kill them. Their preacher actually set them up for the government forces.
We may have a few, and I stress the word few, cases where things went bad but by and large our freedoms are intact and greater than most in the world today.
Let me ask how many of you would be willing to put on a uniform and get out on the street with the bad guys today? The bad guys are pretty well armed. And there's been quite a shift from the old days when cop killing was taboo. Now you've got bands who title their album's Cop Killer. Jeesh. And its the same on the DEA and ATF FBI as well. These people find our bad apples for a living. They find the people who are not like you and I, these people know they can hurt others unless their caught. They don't feel guilt and remorse.
Show some respect for the majority. Yes you should do something about situations like Waco which apparantly got way out of hand and then was blatantly lied about, but DONT slam the good men and women who protect your sorry ass every day.
-- Gordon (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 28, 1999.
Waco was a watershed for me as well. But it didn't make me think that every federal agent, and certainly not local cops, were my enemy. The that got to me about Waco was what it showed about our leadership. I had no idea things had gotten so bad. Went from a knee jerk, defend the federal agent type (Had family in the FBI) to one who veiws the feds motives with suspision. I still ackowledge the good things that the good agents do for us, like the work the ATF did on the world trade center bombing. But after Waco, how does the saying go, "No peace without justice".
-- eyes_open (email@example.com), August 28, 1999.
Gordon, you are a voice of reason and sanity. When you look at some of the raving posts on this forum it is comforting to know that we have quality of law enforcement in this country. Yes, there are surely some bad apples in that barrel but look at the massive number of loons that have to be administered to...many of them right here on this forum. Who else will take out the trash?
-- For (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 28, 1999.
Again, the facist "For" equates the people he is supposed to protect and serve with "waste" or "trash." This mentality, encouraged by high-level decisions to militarize the police, is why people fear the police. And where there is fear, you can reasonably expect resentment.
I agree completely with you, Gordon. There are many good law enforcement officers. But they are enforcing and benefiting from unjust, unconstitutional laws, such as civil forfeiture. These incidents are not isolated. "Dynamic entry" such as that in the Paz case, is a matter of "drug war" policy, not the poor choice of a few bad cops. So is increase survelliance of innocent citizens, and violation of the 4th Amendment (again, not a question of bad cops, but of bad policy - which forces good cops to be bad). Many, many people are killed, weekly it seems, by men in black who enter without clearly identifying themselves, yelling "freeze" and shooting, for instance, a woman who ran to shield her children (Seattle - they had the wrong house) and a man who entered his living room carrying a hair dryer (thought by his killer to be a gun - no drugs were found). No one on this forum slammed cops in general; we are all reacting to flagrant EVIL in our system (remember the concept of good and evil?). If this makes the many, many good and principled cops look bad, they should band together and denounce the evil, unconstitutional, venal cops in their midst - they should solve this problem they have, instead of blaming the victims. Our government has declared war on it's own citizens; it has established a clear pattern of abuse; people like "For" quash dissent with threats, blaming the victims (i.e.:"they were asking for it"). At this point, it's up to the good cops to clean their own house. Because if this totalitarian bullshit keeps up much longer, good CITIZENS like myself are going to have to leave the task of distinguishing "good" cops from "bad" cops up to the final authority, God.
-- Liberty (email@example.com), August 28, 1999.