What About Promise Keepers?greenspun.com : LUSENET : The Christian Church : One Thread |
Do the same arguments for and against participation in Ministerial Associations stand with Promise Keepers?
Some would say it's okay to meet with denominational ministers to discuss community wide benevolence for example, but not okay to worship Jesus Christ with folks who disagree on the Gospel terms of salvation....
So what is your position on involvement with Promise Keepers?
-- Anonymous, August 26, 1999
The Mormons have been preaching family values a lot longer than PK (remember...."Family Home Evenings??").So.....let's together wif dem!!!
I mean....we both believe baptism is essential to salvation....(that's further than we'll ever get with PK).
Dittos to Scott Sheridan's remarks!
-- Anonymous, September 01, 1999
I would like to congratulate Scott Sheridan for being historically accurate and pointing out the truth about the "Declaration and Address" (from now on referred to as the "D & A.")I have found that many of those with the "liberal" bent in our brotherhood (forgive my labeling).....love to bring us back to the "D & A."
In the "D & A," brother Thomas Campbell was convinced that the ONLY THING that separated Christians were matters of opinion. He in no way felt that there were any significant doctrinal differences.
Later on in his life (and this is the part that the "liberals"...sorry....forget)......he had to admit that he was wrong about MOST of what he said in the "D & A."
There were many things that led to this admittance.....but two stand out.
First, his son Alexander's debates about infant baptism. And two....(this was the biggie).....his son's message entitled "The Sermon on the Law" where he pointed out that the O.T. law (including tithing, Duane)....is no longer binding upon the Christian.
That was the straw that broke the camel's back (or the Campbell's back...ha...I crack myself up). From that point on, denominational pulpits, especially among the Baptists, whom we so seem to love in our day and age, were closed and the Campbells were kindly asked to take their "D & A" and go home.
For the first time the Campbell's had to face the fact that Restoration WAS NOT going to occur from within....but it would have to take place OUTSIDE mainline churches.
Once this was realized....the movement grew like wildfire. I would suggest that the day we can accept that we are "not just like them" anymore and get on with the business of restoration....we too will make great strides.
Good work Scott!!!
Concerning Duane's speaking at a PK gathering.....#1) I assure you....Duane, unless he is willing to compromise like our good friend and erring brother Max Lucado, will never speak at any PK Rally in a large stadium....and....2) Once he starts explaining in detail what he means....I'm sure that the invitations will cease.
Or, a third option, and the one I hope will happen, is Duane will convince them that what is happening at PK rallies is not Biblical unity....so stop going....and teach them about Restorationism and bring them to his church.
One other thing about PK. I'm convinced, that two of the reasons for the success of PK is.....1) They have some good things to say about families and about men being men; and 2) We have not been saying these things in our churches.
I've served at four different churches as the pulpit minister. Of the three previous to the one I am at....not a one of them ever has nor had the desire to attend a PK rally. There is one guy in my current congregation who has gone....but I've just about got him to the point where he is ready to repent. Ha!!!
Why?? Because I was preaching what PK was saying long before PK ever came along.....i.e., it's time for men to buck up and be men....to be leaders in their home in church and quit letting the women take over both the home life and the church life.
In other words....I was a PK....long before there was a PK.
I was just encouraged that there was someone out there with enough knowledge of our heritage to point out what he did. Thanks again Scott!!!
And one more thing.....I personally don't care what people call me (Campbellite or Campbell heavy)!!! I'm proud of our heritage. And I think the people of our congregations would be too.....IF THEY KNEW IT!!!!
In my current church we have picture of the Campbell's, B.W. Stone, and W. Scott hanging in our fellowship hall. At Wed. Bible study the other night I asked, "Who knows who those men are??"
Two people raised their hand!! The church is 140 years old with 166 in attendance and 2 people raised their hand. Well guess what...we got a four week series coming up.
I'm serious....who among us could not be proud of our heritage once they knew it???
By the way Scott, after the lessons we are going on a field trip to Cane Ridge.
I'm tired of being told our movement was a mistake, that we ought to be ashamed of our stances.
Oh no....I'm tired of the spineless jelly fish who are more interested in church politics and who gets into the "Whos Who" at the NACC.
Our brotherhood needs more Ed Bousemans. Not a lot of tack....but he sure knows how to hit a tack right on the head!!!
There....I feel better.
Good night!
-- Anonymous, September 02, 1999
Brother Warren,You accuse Mr. Saffold of an "ad hominem" response.
I have read and reread his responses and for the life of me, I cannot find one example of an "ad hominem."
His responses are always directed at the argument....not the man.
Could you please site what you consider an "ad hominem?"
I'm sure that Brothe Saffold would be glad to offer an apology for such.
Respectfully,
-- Anonymous, September 04, 1999
Mr. Muse.....I believe your post pretty much settles it....and....it pretty much states the position of those who see no merit and only damage from PK.
I can't remember whether it was Brother Jim Spinnati or someone else who once told me...."I didn't leave denominationalism simply to return to it!!"
Amen!!!
Thanks again.
-- Anonymous, September 07, 1999
Sam....Hundreds of thousands of men were striving to be better husbands, men, Christians, etc.....before P.K.
It's called.....CHURCH.
-- Anonymous, September 07, 1999
Mr. DLeeMuse....I know you asked Mr. Saffold....but I would like to respond to that question.
As concerning a "faith only" gospel.....I would continue with the thoughts of Paul who said..."which is really not another gospel at all."
Anything that is not right is wrong. Anything that is not truth....is falsehood.
Forgive my intrusiveness. Couldn't resist.
-- Anonymous, September 11, 1999
My head hurts so bad!!!!Anyway....have enjoyed the "disussion."
My only comments are to Gary Cox (who I'm sure will not read this because he is "too busy")
Again Gary....your comments are sanctimounious....with little content.
You say....."I went so I could understand."
The implication being....those who opposed PK (such as myself) do not understand.
Gary, I don't need to cheat on my wife so that I "can understand." Knowledge of sin is not always based upon experience.
You say something to the effect of......"we fear what we don't understand."
Oh no my dear brother....we fear because WE DO understand.
You say...."you cry for our churches."
So we we my brother....so do we.
MICHAEL DEMASTUS......as you know, never in a million years will you and I agree on this subject. However, I must commend you on the way you have conducted yourself in the discussion.
You have certainly "mellowed" since my forum discussions. You have acted the gentleman.
-- Anonymous, October 06, 1999
Sorry about the typos above.....it's 6 AM and only had one cup of coffee so far!!
-- Anonymous, October 06, 1999
Had the opportunity to attend the PK "million man" rally in DC! It was great. But, I was particpating as a Christian, and did not need to worry about what they taught re: salvation. Does attending the events automatically mean I agree with everything they state?Roger Chambers, among others, taught about "spoiling the Egyptians" ... taking what we can use, as the children of God did when they left bondage. Now, I'm not saying Roger would have supported PK ... most likely not. But his principle applies.
Just a thought or two ... what about you?
-- Anonymous, August 27, 1999
Taking the name of Roger Chambers in vain will do you no good. I'm am convinced he would no more participate in PK's as he would a Billy Graham crusade - although I understand Pk's have better music.If the PK's had anything new to offer then we could indeed "spoil the Egyptians" however, anything they do that is positive (and I give them some credit for having some positive aspects) is nothing the Scriptures do not already teach. The Church may have ignored some of these teachings, to our shame, but that is no reason to affiliate ourselves with those who need to be converted rather than accepted as is. One of their basic tenets is that if anyone can call Jesus Lord, he is your brother. That's not the only qualification for unity (Read Eph. 4).
Guilt by association may not apply here, but to attend a PK rally, you must support them financially, which helps them to continue with their false teaching (Calvinism combined with Vineyard theology), but you must disregard certain passages of Scripture to do so. Gal 1:8 & 9 as well as several others.
Duane, you asked for some articles and such; in the August (I think it's August) 1997 issue of the Restoration Herald there was an article by Tom Tybeck (an FCCer) called "The Promise That Won't Keep." Also there have been several articles in the TNT Journal in the last couple of years.
Back when our Churches affiliated with the denominations in order to convert rather than fellowship, we were the fastest growing people in the States. Something to think on.
Scott
-- Anonymous, August 28, 1999
I have been asked to speak tomorrow (Monday) night to a group of local Promise Keepers. I am excited for the opportunity...I am going to preach on unity... unity based on God's Word.
I still have misgivings, and I am torn between two opposing but seemingly valid arguments...
But any Campbellite preacher worth his salt wouldn't turn down the opportunity to present the restoration plea to a group of local men...
I wonder how far I should go in raising eyebrows.... entitle the message, "The sin of denominationalism"
Naaaaaah....
-- Anonymous, August 29, 1999
Go get 'em, Duane.
-- Anonymous, August 29, 1999
I have my own opinion about Promise Keepers. I do not intend to ever go to a meeting, unless they ask me to preach and give me free reign. Like our brother was able to do. I have taken the approach of PK, like I would for any other social club. I don't think I have the right to tell anyone they can or can not participate, but I will still warn them about potential errors, And as far as I am able. I will protect my lambs from the wolves. Here are two sites with information that I found on a search. I am not endorsing them, just passing them along for information.
http://rapidnet.com/~jbeard/pke.htm
ANDhttp://www4.linknet.net/lpoole/pk.htm
-- Anonymous, August 30, 1999
Duane:No "Campbellite" preacher is worth a whit more salt than any other sectarian preacher; but, a faithful Christian preacher of the Gospel knows that there can be no fellowship between darkness and light. We should go everywhere to preach the truth because the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth" and our Lord told us to "preach the gospel to every creature". I suggest that if you attend a "Promise Keepers" meeting and preach the Gospel to them about how to obtain the promises of God through faith and obedience to Christ in the act of immersion you would not have to worry about this question of whether to attend or not. They would settle that for you by throwing you out and barring you from returning. Try it and see.
I recommend that you approach them as a Christian instead of a "Campbellite". It is a shame that some among us have so wondered from the principles of restoring New Testament Christianity that we now accept the names that we rejected and were called in derision by the sects around us. I am not now nor have I ever been a "Campbellite". The early preachers of the gospel in this country steadfastly refused to accept the name "Campbellite" when it was applied to them. We are Christians only and not "Campbellites" at all. If you have determined to be a "Campbellite" then consider that you are accepting the sectarian idea of being a different kind of Christian thanthat found in the New Testament. You are guilty of the same sin that Paul pleaded with the Corintians not to commit. 1 Cor. 1:10,11.
I have witten to you in a spirit of love. I believe that we must be careful not to follow the errors that surround us. If we are to restore New Testament Christianity we must consistently use the language of the New Testament. The Bible only makes Christians only. No one following the teachings of the New Testament could become a "Campbellite, Methodist, Baptist, or any other sect named after great leaders and following the traditions and creeds of men. We follow Christ, not Campbell, and therefore agree with brother Campbell only where he agreed with Christ. I am sure that brother Campbell had no desire to follow any great leader to the extent that he would take up his name and wear it with pride instead of wearing the name of Christ only. The early Christians suffered many things for the name of Christ but nothing in the name of any other. For the is no other name whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 01, 1999
Thanks for the kind response.I use the name Campbellite in jest.
I agree with all of your comments.
My message was this: In order to be right with God, we must: 1. Start to agree with God 2. Stop doing the things God does not agree with 3. Start doing the things God agrees with. In point 3, I pointed out that it was obvious God agrees with belief, repentance, confession, baptism, prayer, tithing, etc. Guess what? I was not thrown out. I was even invited back. Of course, this is a small town...
-- Anonymous, September 01, 1999
Greetings in the name and love of Jesus Christ our Lord.In my over 20 years of ministry within the Christian Church, I have found that even I don't agree with some of my Restoration brothers over the molehills of the Bible.
If we read Campbell's "Declaration and Address", which we generally hold as a foundation for our existence (outside of the authority of Scripture), we realize that we have no right to expect everyone to agree with us on many details because each is coming from his background and experience.
Proposition 8 establishes that only grounds for fellowship or disfellowship is who Jesus is. This fighting, backbiting our brothers who wear a denominational name is not in harmony with Propositions 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13. They, like us, are working out their salvation as they understand it from the level of study that they have accomplished to this point. Are we not doing the same?
Our non-instrument brethren are divided into at least 14 camps at last count. You can tell which Bible college an independent Christian Church minister attended by how he answers certain questions. We struggle with the molehills among ourselves. How can we stand in judgement against other Christians just because they haven't developed our understanding of baptism's role in the plan of salvation or some other issue that we hold dear?
Promise Keepers seeks to proclaim Jesus Christ, nothing more or less. Many Christian Churches have become as denominational and divisive.
May God guide us in a spirit of love, a desire for unity on essentials and liberty on all other matters so we can engage in evangelism and not waste our time crucifying our own.
In His Service
-- Anonymous, September 01, 1999
I'm having trouble with the last post. I find that too often we are glorifying the deeds of our Restoration fathers rather than carrying on with the direction they put us. The Declaration and Address (D&A) was a very important document, no doubt, but it was written under the assumption that the only thing that divided Churches was their creedal statement. The D&A was a great beginning to restoration, but to continue to look to it to bring about unity is like trying to fix my Pentium computer using a manual on computer repair from the 1970's. There was nothing wrong with the manual when it was first written. It did a lot of good. But nowadays it is only good for learning the basics of computer technology. Even in the lifetime of T. Campbell things changed. They tried working within existing denominations. It didn't work! They got kicked out because they stood on, not their molehills of opinion, but upon the Scriptures. There's something we could learn there if we choose.I do not know about anyone else, but the foundation of our existence does not seem to me to be the D&A. It is the Scriptures. The D&A is a fascinating footnote of history, but hardly my reason for being.
As far as having varied experiences so we shouldn't expect to agree on "details" I would simply point out that the Campbells, Scott, Smith et al., agreed on the basics. And they had varied backgrounds as well. What many are trying to do in our day is to get rid of the basics so we can all get along.
Honestly, I don't care what Proposition 8 said, Ephesians 4 teaches that there is more to unity than just the Lordship of Christ. Paul tells us there, not to create unity, but instead to PRESERVE unity, then he gives us seven "ones" that are the bare essentials for unity. The unity is already there. It is not ours to try and create in our own image.
I have a hard time calling someone my brother who has a different Heavenly Father than I do. When I confront denominationalism, I am not "backbiting" my brother. I am trying to win people to the Lord who do not know Him yet, no matter how many propositions Thomas Campbell came up with. It is not a matter of "working out our salvation as they understand it..." It is a matter of who is in Christ and who is not.
The Non-instrumental churches are split, but most of those splits are as silly as denominationalism, following after opinions. But at least for the most part, the non-instrumentalists understand HOW to become a Christian.
You ask how we can stand in judgment of other Christians? I ask, who do people think they are giving affirmation of someone's salvation when they blatantly have not followed Scripture? No one has that kind of authority (unless you are God).
I pray that we will indeed preserve the unity that God gives us and will quit trying to water the essentials down to the lowest common denominator that we can all agree on. I'm sorry, we are not crucifying our own, we're trying to keep people from Hell. To me, that's love. To many others, that's divisive. So sorry.
Scott
-- Anonymous, September 01, 1999
Duane:I am glad to hear that you were using the name "Campbellite" in Jest. I apologize for not detecting that it was in Jest. I probably need to work on my sense of humor! Ha! Sometimes I get so involved in "contending for the faith once delived to the saints" that I cannot recognize a saint when I meet one.
I was obviously wrong in my assumption that the promise keepers would kick you out if you taught them the truth of the gospel, especially about faith, repentance, confession and immersion. I am happy to hear that they heard you in these matters. The only reason that a Christian can justify attending events supported by those who are not Christians is to teach them the truth. If this is what you are being allowed to do among the promise keepers I admire your efforts and Pray for your success. I wonder, how many have accepted the the truth and obeyed the gospel and have seperated themselves from sectarianism to cling only to our Lord and have rennounced the creeds of men? I pray that many will be converted to Christ.
I hope that you would agree that any Christian attending these events with no intent of preaching the gospel but are rather there to fellowsip those who are not in Christ in things that are contrary to His will would be wrong in doing so.
I know that we must go to them with the gospel for they are not likely to come to us. The salvation that is in Christ must be our primary concern. Christ is not interested in social and political agendas. He came to seek and save that which was lost. (Luke 19:10) And he commanded us to "preach the gospel to every creature" Mark 16:15-16. We have too much to do to allow ourselves to be diverted from the primary mission of the Church of Christ which is to preach the gospel to every creature.
If the brothers keepers meetings provide a good forum for us to preach the truth, then, maybe a large number of us should attend together with that specific purpose in mind and work diligently to convert as many as possible to our Lord Jesus Christ. I am afraid, however that this is not the intention of many among us who are attending these meetings. I cannot prove that such is the case, I only suspect it. I hope that I am as wrong about that as I was in your case, brother. Please forgive the error.
Your brother in CHrist,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 02, 1999
Scott:I say a hearty,"AMEN" to what you have said in this post! Amen and amen! May our blessed Lord continue to bless you with such insight through your study of His eternal words that will judge us(John 12:48) and that were confirmed by signs, wonders, manifold powers and gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His will(Heb. 2:4).
That precious Word is truly the document that is the foundation of our faith in our resurrected Lord. In comparison to it, the "Declaration and Address" pales into complete insignificance. I am certain that the author of the "Declaration and Address" would agree inasmuch as he pointed us in the same direction that you have pointed. The direction being back to the Word of God and away from the creeds of men.You Brother in CHrist,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 02, 1999
I'm new to such things, posting messages, responding to what others think about a subject or so on. Promise keepers I know very little about, but one thing I do know is that with so many men from different walks of life will never agree on the plan of salvation.
They were all taught from a man made view and not from God's view or even from His Word. I meet with denominational ministers to discuss community wide benevolence and that works Ok. But then we get into community wide worship service for Thanksgiving. Sometimes we must keep our mouth shut even when we disagree on something.
Each year we take turns preaching at this service, and sometimes we have to listen to what they they have to say, which most of it is man made and not from God's Word. But we have a chance to tell them the truth when we preach. The only time I see any good coming from a service of this kind is when A Christian Church preacher is preaching.
Biased? Yes. Why? Because I have heard too many people trying to preach God's Word and they miss the mark.
Yes, I have been a promise keeper ever since I became a husband and a father because God's Word tells husband's and father's how to treat their family. Just read God's Word!
-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999
A previous post to this thread states, "I suggest that if you attend a "Promise Keepers" meeting and preach the Gospel to them about how to obtain the promises of God through faith and obedience to Christ in the act of immersion you would not have to worry about this question of whether to attend or not. They would settle that for you by throwing you out and barring you from returning. Try it and see."I think that if we made a real effort to confront our pride and assumptions that we are right to the exclusion of Christians from other backgrounds - and listened more than we felt the need to "preach" to those who already love Jesus Christ - then we might actually learn something! Promise Keepers is a positive influence on all who are seeking more of Christ to come through in their lives.
-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999
Brother Danny:I agree completely with your post! I thank our Lord Jesus Christ that one such as yourself is still around trying to restore New Testament Christianity by calling upon those who have been misguided by the creeds and traditions of men, to return to the original source of our faith in Christ. That source being the Infallible, and inspired Word of God.
I had written to Duane earlier that I predicted that if he preached the gospel faithfully at a PK meeting he would be thrown out. He informed me that he had done so and they invited him back. So I had to correct my mistake.
However, I do think that you are right in saying that he would not have the opportunity to speak at one of their larger meetings and I suspect, should he receive such an invitation, that he would be thrown out if he taught them that Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16). And If he quoted Acts 2:38 and called upon them to repent and be immersed in the name of Christ for the remission of their sins; or if he called upon them to abandon their denomonational creeds and leave their sectarian parties and unite solely upon the inspired Word of God; I am almost certain that we would hear of a great conflict that occurred in their meeting and that brother Duane had caused much trouble. I do not believe that he would be asked to repeat the performance.I also agree with you about the fact that tithing is not a New Testament teaching.
I appreciate your response. We need to preach the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ with boldness and not yield to the prevailing spirit of unbelief that has considered the idea of returning to the simple faith once delivered to the saints and contending earnestly for it as an out dated and failed concept.
The leaders of the past are to be respected for their pointing us in the direction of Christ and His Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit in the Apostles as the only rule of faith and practice. Let us remember them for their work's sake. However, let us also continue the work that they dedicated their lives to doing rather than merely striving to become a sect built around the history of their work. Instead let us rather be Christians only following Christ only through His Holy Word that we may lead others to Him and no other.
May our Lord abundantly bless you in His service.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999
Dear PST:I am the one who wrote the post to which you refer. I signed it with my name for I am not ashamed to be associated with the things that I write. If I am found to be in error I will promptly correct my way and change my course. But, I will not be convinced by arguments that proceed from the opinions, creeds, dogmas, philosophies or thoughts of men. Nothing but the word of God will suffice for this purpose.
I quote your response to my last post. "I think that if we made a real effort to confront our pride and assumptions that we are right to the exclusion of Christians of other backgrounds and listened more than we felt the need to preach to those who already love Jesus Christ- then we might learn something.
1.) I am impressed that you are at least willing to confront something! Reading your words that follow, one would get the impression that you are completely unwilling to confront anything. However, I am afraid that you have asked us to confront an imaginary enemy. For there was no pride motivating my comments urging us to preach the gospel to those attending the PK meetings. I have a friend that attends Promise keepers and I know from him that he has never obeyed the gospel of Christ and that many of his associates have also not obeyed. That there may be some attending that have obeyed the gospel does not negate the fact that many have never done so.
My motivation proceeds from my concerns that we all follow the truth of Gods Word and that those who have not obeyed the gospel of Christ have the opportunity to obey it. This is in harmony with the teaching of Gods Word. The apostle Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said, For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to all them that believe, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16). Paul later defined the gospel in these terms, Now I make known unto you, brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, BY WHICH ALSO YE ARE SAVED, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, EXCEPT YE BELIEVED IN VAIN. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures. (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Then Paul later explains that God will render vengeance on them that do not obey this gospel, And to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in FLAMING FIRE, rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST: who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His might, when He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess. 2:7-10). The Gospel is described in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 as facts to be believed; yet in 2 Thessalonians it is described as a command to be obeyed. How is it then that we can obey the death, burial and the resurrection of Christ? Paul does not leave us in doubt about this. In Romans 6:3-6 he tells us, Or are ye ignorant that all we who were immersed into Christ Jesus were immersed into His death? We were immersed therefore with Him through immersion into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father, so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection; Knowing this that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away, so that we should no longer be in bondage to sin. (Romans 6:3-6).
In these verses we find the gospel in the form of an act of obedience called immersion and hence we find the only possible way to obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. In this we find the reason that Christ said, He that believeth and is immersed shall be saved. (Mark 16:16). For this is where we are obedient to the gospel of Christ, without which we will face the vengeance of Christ along with those who know not God. This is further verified in Col. 2:12, having been immersed with him in immersion wherein ye also were raised with Him THROUGH FAITH IN THE WORKING OF GOD, who raised Him from the dead.
Paul explains the result of obeying this form of doctrine in Romans 6:17-18, But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were once servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that FORM OF TEACHING whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Paul said once, Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men.
For this reason we cannot just sit back, knowing that many of our friends at the PK meetings have not obeyed the gospel and just listen instead of preaching. To do such would be nothing short of spineless cowardice and disobedience to the very commands of our Lord!
2.) You condemn us for the exclusion of Christians of other backgrounds. Only God can exclude. In the New Testament we find Christians and they are all from the same background-- they heard the preaching of the Christ and obeyed him. There is only one background from which a person can become a Christian and that is the hearing and obeying of the gospel of Christ. Whatever background precedes that is of absolutely no consequence. We are not begotten by various means but by the single means of the gospel. 2 Thess.2: 14, 15, whereunto He called you through our Gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught whether by word or by epistle of ours. There is only one Gospel. (Gal. 1:8,9)
Therefore, if they are Christians then they are of the same background as all Christians. They would, as Christians, be of the same background as Paul, Peter, James, John and all of those who became Christians. If they have not followed the commands of the Lord Jesus Christ to become Christians they are not Christians at all, much less Christians of differing backgrounds. You will not find in the New Testament people who were Christians of different backgrounds if you mean by the phrase different Backgrounds that they became Christians and served the Lord as faithful Christians by following different teachings. We are one in Christ--not thousands contrary to Christ. If you mean however that there are Christians who were at one time from different backgrounds and have now forsaken all that was contrary to Christ and are one in him, then I would agree. But this is not what you appear to have said. There is, according to the inspired apostle Paul, One Lord, one faith, and one baptism. (Eph. 4:5). This leaves little room for different backgrounds in the sense in which you use this term.
3.) You advise us that we, need to listen more than preach. The promise keepers are not following your advice. They preach their doctrines, which are contrary to the doctrine of Christ. Christ did not follow your advice and go to the temple to listen more than preach. Paul said, Woe unto me if I preach not the gospel. Peter and Phillip did not follow your advice. In every case where Phillip preached, people immediately began looking for water in order to be immersed. Not so in our day. It seems that you have not been following your own advice in your concern for us that we are too proud, for you have found that it is wise for you to preach to us so that we can be shamed into not being proud. You did not determine to correct our error by, Listening more than preaching.It is not new to have someone to urge us not to preach Christ. Peter and John faced this problem when they were told, not to speak at all nor to teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter answered and said unto them, Whether it is right in the sight of God to harken unto you rather than unto God, judge ye: For we cannot but speak the things that we saw and heard. (Acts 4:18,19). The only thing new is that now we have a Christian telling us to not preach to those attending the PK meetings. Paul told the Corinthian brethren something that we need desperately to remember, For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us that are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was Gods good pleasure THROUGH THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING TO SAVE THEM THAT BELIEVE. Seeing that Jews ask for signs and Greeks seek after wisdom: but ye PREACH Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto Gentiles foolishness; but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1:18-25).
Paul charged Timothy, I charge thee in the sight of God, and of Christ, who is the judge of the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: PREACH THE WORD; be urgent in season, and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lust; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn unto fables. But be thou sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an Evangelist, fulfil thy ministry. (2 Timothy 4:1-5). With all of this testimony before us from the Word of God, we cannot accept your advice to disobey the Lords commands. Jesus commanded us in Mark 16: 15-16, Go ye therefore and preach the gospel to every creature; He that believeth and is immersed shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned. All of this applies to any place where the gospel has not been preached or obeyed. The PK meetings are included.4.) You say that they already love Jesus. If this were true then they would gladly hear us preach His blessed gospel to them and they would immediately obey His commands to Believe and be immersed. They would also abandon all human creeds and follow His Word. Jesus said, If you love me keep my commandments. (Luke 6:46), Why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say. And again, not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my father who is in heaven (Matt 7:21). If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love. (John 15:10). Ye are my friends if ye do the things which I command you. (John 15:14).
If these people at the PK meetings are truly such friends" of Jesus, and if they truly love him as our brother PTS says, then they should be more than willing to be taught the way of the Lord more perfectly as was Pricilla and Aquilla and obey the commands of the lord and leave the creeds of men. It is our responsibility to give them that opportunity. We will not however know if they truly love the Lord this much until we teach them the truth of His Word. The test of whether anyone is a true disciple is given in John 8:31-32, If ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my DISCIPLES INDEED. And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.
So our brother PTS says that we need not be concerned about our friends at the PK meetings because they are just Christians from different backgrounds. Yet, he has not tested and does not want us to test, to see if they are our Lords disciples indeed by seeing that they are continuing in His Word. It is possible that they would continue in His Word if they knew its teaching but how can we help them to know it if we, Listen to their teaching instead of preaching the gospel of Christ to them? We are to Learn from Gods word. In Gods word we have, all things that pertain unto Life and Godliness. We do not need to listen to the doctrines of men to learn what we need to know. One who has studied the Word of God diligently and sought to follow it would know of his obligation to keep promises. We do not need some entertaining and emotional movement to know and obey the Lord in these matters. If we were to take your advice we would have to listen and if they were to follow your advice they would not feel the need to "preach. Hence there would be nothing to listen too. Your advice only applies to those who are bold enough to take the gospel to those who have not obeyed it. Such as obey not the gospel are in danger. (2 Thess. 2:9). Therefore, out of a sincere Love we seek to snatch them out of the fire (Jude 3:22).5.) You accuse us of excluding them. We do not have the authority to exclude anyone. Only the Lord can exclude from His kingdom. IT IS HE WHO SAID, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT HE CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. (John 3:3-5). Neither do you have the authority to include them, for this too is the Lords business. And the Lord added to them daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2:47). We are commanded to preach the gospel to those who have not obeyed it. Now this we can determine. Have they obeyed the gospel? If not, it is our responsibility, because God has commanded us to do so, to preach the gospel to them and plead with them to obey. Just who do you think you are, to include them as Christians, when they have not been born of water and the spirit? If Christ has excluded them because they have not been born again, they will not be included just because you accept them. If they have been born again of the water and the spirit, nothing that I do could keep them out of the kingdom of God. Even if we were in error concerning them, my preaching of the truth that we should be born of water and the spirit would not offend them in the least. They would quickly say amen.
6.) Then you tell us that promise keepers is a positive influence on all who are seeking more of Christ to come through in their lives. We cannot trust your judgement as to whether they are a positive influence for Christ because you consider the preaching of the gospel of Christ as a negative influence. With that as your background how can we trust your judgement of what is positive?I do pray for you that you will not be turned unto fables.
Your brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999
Mr. Saffold,My only response to your last post is to say that I only wish that I had said it :o) You are very clear in your presentation. Clear in thinking as well.
Danny is perfectly correct in his response to the pride comment.
It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to assume that any man can affirm anothers salvation from God when they have not followed what God said they must in order to attain salvation. Granted, it is not my perogative to condemn someone to Hell and give up on him, but the opposite extreme is granting salvation. Who is any man to do such a thing??? Jesus gave the Apostles authority to forgive sins (Jn. 20) but no one on this board is of the 12.
To affiliate ourselves with those who concinue to promulgate false doctrine, and to pay money to do it just blows my mind.
Thanks again to Danny and Mr. Saffold.
Scott
-- Anonymous, September 03, 1999
Mr. Saffold, I read your ad hominim reply to PST. You are quite adept at tirelessly thrashing your fellow Christian, but I would expect that PST will be baptizing more PKs. The message that many preach today is one that is incomplete. We could reap a great havest by providing the missing part. PST doesn't think that preaching the gospel is bad, and you know it. The reason we are not growing is because too many would rather win the argument than win the soul. Rather than trying to prove that we are right by long debates, we need to do what is right and people will know by watching our actions that we have the truth.
-- Anonymous, September 04, 1999
But when they watch us, they see us joining together with those who choose not to obey the Gospel, what are they supposed to see? It certainly won't be the distinct people God has told us to be.I do not know Mr. Saffold, but why is it alright to make the assumption that we who acknowledge the need to uphold the clear teachings of Scripture, that we are being driven by pride and being unloving in our actions and then when a response is given in kind, all of a sudden it's ad hominem or long-winded (or however you worded it)?
Why is it that when we are concerned about people going to Hell because of a lack of understanding or because of inaccurate teaching, people accuse us of being unloving and full of pride. I expressed it somewhere else on this forum, but I'll say it again (or close to it), I deem it the height of arrogance to affirm someone's salvation to them when they clearly have not been obedient to the Word. Our puny human rear-ends are too small to fit into the throne of God. It is not our place to amend what God has ordained CLEARLY in His Word. If there is pride here, it's not coming from this side of the discussion, I assure you of that!
As sincerely as I get. Scott
-- Anonymous, September 04, 1999
Brother Case:I shall do my best to reply to what you have said in reference to my response to brother PST. Before doing so I want to put his words in bold and quotations so that all can see what we are discussing. Brother PST wrote the following words:
I think that if we made a real effort to confront our pride and assumptions that we are right to the exclusion of Christians from other backgrounds - and listened more than we felt the need to "preach" to those who already love Jesus Christ - then we might actually learn something! Promise Keepers is a positive influence on all who are seeking more of Christ to come through in their lives.You apparently read my response to him and in your reaction to it you said:
Mr. Saffold, I read your ad hominim reply to PST.
It seems that this word ad hominem is a bit over used among us. In fact we do not seem to know its meaning. It does mean attacking the man instead of his argument. It appears that some feel the force of strong arguments and under that pressure mistakenly feel as if they, or in your case your friend PST, have been personally attacked. It appears to be the most useful response especially if you cannot find any flaw in the arguments of the person who has made the fatal error of ad hominem. Because it implies that we should not listen to any argument that is made by someone that we can, justly or unjustly, charge with attacking the man and not the argument. While we do not believe that any Christian should attack the man instead of his arguments, we do consider and make every effort to answer the arguments of those who attack us instead of our arguments. Our response to ad hominem attacks is to simply specifically identify them and show that they are directed toward the person and not the argument. We do this because one may very well be angry with us and unable to resist a jab or two at us while at the same time offering arguments that are genuinely worthy of serious consideration. This way we do not ignore his arguments that are not ad hominem. Such a persons other arguments that are not ad Hominem" could be valid and deserve our serious consideration. Should they be found to be true we should accept them and if false we should answer them. There is no better basis on which to discuss any reasonable issue.Having said all of the above, we will leave it to others to judge whether we have attacked brother PST or his arguments. However, if you accuse me of making such an attack, Christian kindness and fairness should lead you to specify the words wherein you claim that I have made such an ad hominem response. I can assure you that it is never my intent to attack anyone, least of all my brethren in Christ our Lord. I therefore promise that should you specify any point that I have made that was an attack, personal or otherwise, on brother PST I will immediately apologize and ask brother PST to forgive me and pray that our Lord Jesus Christ will have mercy upon me as well.
You are quite adept at tirelessly thrashing your fellow Christian, but I would expect that PST will be baptizing more PKs.
You Praise me too much in this matter. If I were truly adept, both you and brother PST would have been convinced by my arguments. I do not know why you use the word tirelessly. I was very tired when I finished writing my response. I work everyday and can only write when I am either off from work or late at night. You say that I am thrashing my fellow Christians. Which of my fellow Christians do you think that I have thrashed? I seek not such, I would rather take a thrashing than to lift a hand or a harsh tone toward my brothers for whom our Lord gave his life. Now, if you are talking about the errors that my brother has expressed in his post and you sense that they received a good thrashing then I accept it. It was my intent to correct error. Thrashing is your choice of words not mine. I cannot condemn your choice of words but they do appear to be designed to raise the emotions in this discussion. Emotions are good most of the time; but, they are often not helpful in reasonable discussions among sincere and thoughtful men.
You express much confidence that Brother PST will be baptizing more PKs. I could be wrong about this, but it sounds as if you think that there is some merit in comparing brother PKTs approach to mine and stating your belief that he will have better results. I sincerely hope and pray that you are right that he will baptize more that I would. For I strongly desire to see the people among the PKs who have not obeyed the gospel to do just that. However, baptizing them is useless without converting them to Christ our Lord. I do not share your confidence in brother PSTs methods which, according to his own words, is to reach them without preaching. In fact he sounds as if he thinks they have already been converted to Christ and are nothing more than Christians from different backgrounds. If brother PTS already considers them as Christians, I cannot imagine that he will feel the need to preach to them nor any desire to convert them, and thus could not reasonably make any attempt to baptize them. I have made no appeal to follow my method to convert those among the PKs. I am apealing to the use of Gods Plan which is through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Brother PKs plan cannot be compared to the one followed by those who preached the gospel in the New Testament who were guided by the Holy Spirit. They did not determine that everyone was just Christians from and different background and they strongly felt the, need to preach the blessed gospel of Christ. They also met with controversy in every place that they went and the results of those numerous confrontations and debates was the conversion of thousands upon thousands of lost souls to Christ our Lord. In fact, within a short span of about 29 years they had preached the gospel to the then known world. We will not reach the world for Christ taking any other approach than the one shown to us on the pages of Holy Writ where men were guided directly by the Holy Spirit to carry to gospel to the world. I doubt very seriously that brother PTS will baptize even a fraction of the number, through his, listening to false doctrine, as Peter baptized on the day of Pentecost through the preaching of the blessed gospel of Christ.
The message that many preach today is one that is incomplete.
In this statement you sound almost as if you agree with me. I cannot be sure however because you do not tell us who these many are and exactly what it is that you believe they are leaving out. Brother PST is telling us not to preach at all so I guess that he would certianly be one of those to whom you are referring to that preach an incomplete message. It is surely difficult to complete something that you never start. I agree that there are many who preach an incomplete message. I do not understand our language sometimes. Why do we use the word message when the Bible calls it the gospel? I know that the word message is used in the Bible also but I am not sure that it is used in the sense you are using the word in your post. We are told by Christ exactly what to preach. We are to preach the gospel. If we do that we will not leave anything out. Is this what you mean by an incomplete message. Do you see? You did not want to say we are preaching an incomplete gospel. Now did you? It seems that by your use of the word, message you are talking about preaching something other than the gospel. If you can get us into this realm we will never know what is complete and what is not. There may be thousands of differing views about a complete message. But there can be no such quibbling over the gospel. That is what we have been commanded to preach. We know what it is and its boundaries are clearly laid out for us. We cannot misunderstand nor can we fail to know when we have completed our task of preaching it or when we have left something out.
We could reap a great havest by providing the missing part.
Here again you do not seem to feel the need to tell us what is the missing part that has kept us from having such a great harvest. Now over here in Alabama we are having a great harvest because we plant the seed of the kingdom, which is the word of God, and we come along and water it with our tears of love for the lost, and God in answer to our prayers gives the increase. We do not just sit around and listen to denomonational error until they like us so much that they are finally convinced that we are wonderful people, and once they are converted to US they come and fill our pews. And Then we then feel the Need to entertain them until Christ returns for fear that they will leave the church because they may change their glowing opinion of us someday. No we convert them to Christ, teach them to, observe all thigs that he has commanded us then they begin to repeat that same process and they will never change their opinion of Christ our Lord. They become his bondservants. They have not joined some social club filled with quasi-believers who are so tender that they cannot bare even just critisism. Enough of this weak Knee, watered down, luke warm faithlessness. Tell us honestly, what is missing?
PST doesn't think that preaching the gospel is bad, and you know it.
Now in response to these words, I can only sense that most of those posting here know each other and you assumed that I must therefore know PST. However, I do not know any one posting here. I have meet Dennis Dilley on the internet and hold him in high regard. Anyone else I just do not know. I would like to get to know all, even those with whom I am unfortunately compelled to disagree. You say that he does not think that preaching the gospel is bad. Then you follow with, and you know it. No, my brother, I do not and cannot know it. Nor did I accuse him of believing that preaching the gospel is bad. I did however respond to his words urging us not to preach to the people that attend the PK meetings because they are Christians from different backgrounds and that they already love Christ. For the only information I have from him on the subject is his words that he posted which in part said, and listened more than we felt the need to "preach" to those who already love Jesus Christ . Now he has said here that if we listen more that we felt the need to preach. Preach what? The only thing that Christians know to preach is the gospel of Christ. He does not seem to favor that idea with his words. Then he says, to those who already love Christ. He appears here to mean that these people do not need to hear preaching because they already love Christ. We need to listen, not preach according to PST. These people already love Christ, he says. It sounds as if he is convinced that the gospel need not be preached because they are already Christians. I have shown that they are not Christians and therefore need to hear the gospel. He is opposed to that idea. To that extent he considers preaching the gospel to those at the PK meetings as not necessary. This is the effect of his words. One could get the feeling, as you have, that he thinks it is a bad thing but I never said anything about what he thinks. I responded to what he said. Your statement that I know that he does not think that preaching the gospel is bad is based on your not knowing me. I do not know anything but what brother PST has said. His words were intended to stop us from attempting to preach to those at the PK meetings but to listen to them instead. Now, those are strange words if they come from someone who knows the power of preaching the blessed gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I was clear in pointing out our obligation to preach in every place where the gospel has not been preached and where it has not been obeyed. I will not go over the arguments again but you can read them from my previous post. But you are surely wrong in saying that I know that PST does not believe that preaching the gospel is bad. Brother, I did not know it when I wrote my response to him and I do not know it now after reading your defense of his words.
The reason we are not growing is because too many would rather win the argument than win the soul. Rather than trying to prove that we are right by long debates, we need to do what is right and people will know by watching our actions that we have the truth."
Now surely you would agree that preaching the Gospel of Christ to those who have never heard it or obeyed it is the "right" thing to do, do you not? If you preach the gospel and some one were to say that you were wrong in saying that Christ raised form the dead would you not attempt to prove to that person that you are correct in Claiming that Christ is risen? How long and exactly what actions of your life would convince anyone of the truthfulness of the resurrection? How could anyone observing your manner of Live come to the comclusion that the calvinistic doctrine of "total depravity" is wrong? What from your manner of life would make any one see the need to repent of all their past sins? If they we to ask you about what they need to do to be saved would you tell them to just back up for a while and observe your manner of life? Brother you are making too much of this "manner of Life" argument. It is possible that someone can be brought to have an interest in Christianity by observing your manner of life but the gospel still has to be preached to them and they must obey it in order to be converted to Christ and not converted to you and your "manner of Life.
Now we have only your word on this matter about our "failure to grow". Would you please enlighten the rest of us as to where you have found in the word of God that your above theory concerning the reason of our failure to grow is true? We are not failing to grow in my area and we do the very things of which you claim is the reason for our not growing. You see we decided to follow the word of God and preach the gospel just as the apostles and first century Christians preached it while the Church was being guided directly by the Holy Spirit. Please note the following things they did which, you will please note that they too did the very things that you claim are hindering our growth.
1.) Peter preached the gospel and on the day of Pentecost and ACCUSED them openly of crucifying Jesus, whom God had made both Lord and Christ. The results of this open accusation they were, pricked in their hearts and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles men and brethren what shall we do? Acts 2:1-37. That day three thousand souls were baptized into Christ saved from their sins and added to the Church by the Lord. It seems that you and brother PTS would have had Peter listen to his Jewish brethren who were of the SAME background as Peter and over time, gradually get them to come around and join up with Peter and the others because they like each other so much. I do know that this is the case with the two of you but it sounds that way from what you have said.
2.) In acts the 3rd chapter Peter and John are found preaching, - not listening- And Peter boldly proclaimed, Moses said, the Lord God shall raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed in everything He says to you. And it shall be that every soul that does not hear that prophet shall be utterly DESTROYED from among the people. Acts 3:22,23.
3.) Then in the 4th Chapter Peter and John have caused so much trouble that they are put in Jail. But we are also told in Acts 4:4 the good news that in the process of preaching so strongly as to get themselves put in jail some the number of disciples had increased to about 5, 000 men. , But many of those who heard the message believed and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
4.) Then we have the preaching of Stephen that preceded the first general persecution of the Church. His language was confrontational to say the least. Hear his words, You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. Acts 7:51. I guess some that post in this forum would be quick to call this an ad hominem response by Stephen. Read this account and see that Stephen was stoned to death for this speech. He was full of the Holy Spirit when he gave this speech. The immediate result was that he lost his life. No one became a Christian immediately from his effort. I can just hear someone in our day saying that his approach was wrong. He would be wiser to listen and not preach. He would be alive. But the long-term result of his effort was that the church was scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose over Stephen and they, went everywhere preaching the word Acts 8:4. Notice they did not go everywhere listening to everyone so that they might learn something as our brother PST advises.
5.) There is no need to add more. I urge everyone to read the book of Acts again and see the great conflicts that they faced. They did not seek them, however, they were the natural result of preaching the gospel. If we do the same today we will meet with controversy. It is inescapable. If you say there is a God, the atheist will resist you. If you say that we must be immersed in order to obey Christ and obtain the forgiveness of sins the Baptist and the Presbyterians will fight you. For every truth of God there is someone who will oppose it. Those seeking to convert others to Christ without any conflict either have never made much of an effort to preach the gospel or have given up on believing that it is Gods power to save. We do not fear nor do we seek controversy. We simply preach the truth as we were commanded and trust our Lord to bring the results that he intended to bring.
6.) Read about Paul at Athens and of our Lord in his conflicts with the Pharisees and Sadducees. Matthew 22. You say that debating will not work. It worked when the first century Church was being guided by the Holy Spirit to carry the gospel to everyone. It worked for Christ.
7.) Remember that we are also told to, Contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints Jude 3. Could you please tell us how this can be done while avoiding controversy and debate?
8.) But what if it did not work. Can we claim to have a better plan than Gods does?
I pray for you that the Lord will increase your love for the lost that you may be driven by it to persuade them to hear the blessed gospel of Christ.It is late and I must get some rest.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999
I have been to the PK rallies and Pastor conferences and I love them. I am a Christian Church Minister, but I am a Christian first! If I love the Restoration Movement more than a relationship with God then I am in idolatry!Promise Keepers may not be totally kosher as the movement goes- but it is a step toward unity. Which is what we are about. True, many of their speakers do not teach "baptism" or what we beleive is biblical all the time. But, if we separate ourselves so much we become a sect- the very thing that we do not want. We must be careful to teach what is right- but let us look for the right time and place. The main thrust for PK is to bring men closer to the Lord and their families- we should have being doing that all along- if we were there would not be a need for them. Perhaps, God is leading the Pk movement and using it to accomplish His purpose?
-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999
Brother Gabbard:I thank you for your kind response. I also cannot find any "ad hominem" attack that I have made on brother PTS. You are very kind to notice and correct in saying that should such an "ad hominem" attack be discovered in what I have said to brother PST, it was surely unintentional and I would gladly and promptly ask for brother PST's forgiveness and pray to the Lord for the same.
However, I still have not seen nor has anyone even made the effort to show me exactly which words I have written that can be construed to be an "ad hominem" attack. Without such an indication from someone an apology would be hypocritical and wrong. Therfore, having spoken the truth I have nothing for which I need to apologize. I thank you for helping to make that clear.
I pray that our Lord Jesus will bless you with his abundant grace throughout your life of service to Him.
Your brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 05, 1999
In response to AKELLEY,I am a part of the Restoration Movement myself. However, my goal is not to advance the Restoration Movement but to advance the cause of Christ. Which, in actuality, is what this Movement is all about. Unity is to be a by-product of upholding the truth of the Gospel, as it is. The unity is already there among those who uphold the truth. I cite Eph 4 again. Unity is ours to PRESERVE, not create.
You stated, "Promise Keepers may not be totally kosher as the movement goes- but it is a step toward unity." Unity of what? Unity of false doctrine? Unity of ignorance? WHAT???? Anyone who thinks that sitting around and pretending there are no differences, or at least any serious differences, is unity has their head in the sand. The differences are NOT just a matter of opinion. Questions about the color of the carpet, and should the Lord's Supper be before or after the sermon, those we can leave to opinion. Baptism, Salvation, Biblical Faith (as opposed to Calvinistic), these are not in the arena of give and take. Those are major factors in the faith once delivered.
Next you said, "True, many of their speakers do not teach "baptism" or what we believe is biblical all the time." Something is Biblical whether I believe it or not. This sounds like something I keep hearing from a certain preacher at a very large Church in KY. He says "Baptism is OUR doctrine and we have no right to force OUR doctrine on someone else." I'm sorry, but it's not OUR doctrine. Neither Campbell, Scott, Stone, myself, Danny Gabbard nor the great & mighty Duane Schwingel came up with it. Baptism is APOSTOLIC doctrine, which means it is inspired by God and not open to OUR "open mindedness." II Peter 1:20 & 21.
Then you stated that, "if we separate ourselves so much we become a sect- the very thing that we do not want." We are separated because we believe in different Lords. Once again I would cite Eph 4 which reminds us of how many Lords there really are. BTW, that same passage gived us the bare minimum for unity, and not only is one Lord part of that basic formula, so is one baptism. So is one Faith. I suggest we spend our time uniting with those of the one faith, rather than trying to rationalize how false faiths may be grafted in.
Your last comment that there should've been no need for PK's, I am in total agreement. Men have forsaken their God-given role to lead. Repentance is needed. However, that is no reason to affliate with those who need to be converted and call them our brothers.
One more thing: Do you honestly think that God is using a group who teaches falsehood as regards salvation to lead people closer to Him? God used Pharoah, but it was not to lead His people. False teachers in the Old Covenant were to be stoned. In the New they are to be left alone, to say the least (II John). Affiliating is never offered as an alternative.
I pray we will quit worrying about becoming just another sect and will start trying to convert all the sects, rather than unite with them. By trying to be like the sects we become "just another sect."
I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED to the saints.
Scott
-- Anonymous, September 06, 1999
Brother Copple: I only have time to respond to a portion of what you have said. I will begin by quoting your initial words in your post dated September 01, 1999. In my over 20 years of ministry within the Christian Church, I have found that even I don't agree with some of my Restoration brothers over the molehills of the Bible.Now, brother, I have been studying my Bible since the day I became a Christian on the 15th of December 1968, and I have yet to find a single molehill in the word of God! I confess that it is hard for me to understand exactly what you are talking about. It seems that you are trying to tell us that there are portions of Gods eternal word that amount to nothing more than molehills in your sight. Our Lord clearly does not take the same view of His word that you hold. He said, "He that rejecteth me and receiveth not my words hath one that judgeth him, the words which I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48. When he was tempted by Satan in the wilderness to turn stones into bread his reply shows a completely different attitude from yours toward the word of God. He said to Satan, Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. This EVERY WORD would include even molehills if you have found any to come from the mouth of God. Jesus further instructs us that; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. That would be all of his words, including any molehills if you should truly find any.
Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said to Timothy, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. ALL Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim. 3:16,17. Notice that he says that ALL scripture is profitable. This would include even the molehills that you claim to have found. All of the scriptures are designed to give us wisdom that leads to salvation, including the so-called, Molehills, which you have not demonstrated to even exist.
You did not bother to give us examples from the word of God that you would consider nothing more than mere "molehills". I understand that you consider these so called molehills as not very significant or important. Would you please tell us exactly which portions of Gods Holy word you consider to be as insignificant as molehills? It is shocking to hear you say that you have spent 20 years in the ministry among the Christian churches and have found that you do not agree with your fellow restorationist about these molehills of the bible. It is no wonder. I am almost certain that most of them were just as unable to find a molehill in Gods word as I must confess that I am unable to find. Brother, has it never occurred to you that in all these years you have not identified a single molehill in the Bible? And I predict that should God allow you to continue to serve him in this fashion for another 20 years that you will not find anything in his Holy word that is as insignificant as a molehill? How can we trust you to tell us which portions of Gods word are significant and which are not when you see things in it that none have been able to see. A good place to start winning our confidence is to tell us just where we could go to find these molehills in the word of God of which you speak?
If you were as able to quote the Word of God as you are quoting portions of the Declaration and Address you might have at least quoted the verses that contain these molehills so that we could review them ourselves. I noticed that you quoted the declaration and Address several times and the Bible not even once. Is it possible that you consider the entire Bible, for we cannot tell from your words, as a molehill? You say the molehills of the Bible. You could mean by this that only portions of it are molehills which is how I take it. However, considering how you show more respect to the Declaration and Address than you do the word of God it is possible that you mean that all of Gods words are as molehills. Can you just tell us which parts of Gods words are as insignificant as molehills" to you?
I can tell you that I have never found any molehills in the Bible and If I did, because they would be Gods molehills they would be mountains to me.
Remember what Paul said to the Ephesian brethren, and now I commend you to God and the word of his grace which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all them that are sanctified. Acts 20:32. I pray earnestly for you brother that you will not consider any of Gods words as insignificant molehills.
Your brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 07, 1999
I am encouraged by most of the posts here. I have in the last 6 or so years come out of a denomination, and am so thankful for those of you who are willing to take a stand against false teachings! If it were not for others like you, I would still be living blindly. Please continue to preach the gospel to others like myself against those false teachings. The damage false teachings can do to one is great. If you go to "PK" rallys and others with the same doctrines without speaking up with the truth, you condone what is done and said there. If you treat people as christians when they have not obeyed the gospel, you are helping to seal their fate. You then lose your motivation to evangelize them. I am overcome with fear when I think... what if no one had shown me scriptures on salvation other than belief. Satan uses incomplete/partial truth to decieve so many, please let's not help him by being silent when we go to these meetings. DLMuse
-- Anonymous, September 07, 1999
I am Astounded! Hundreds of thousands of men gathering to seek God, to be more Christ like, to be better husbands and fathers, to seek to break down walls of racism, denominationalism and many other kinds of isms and yet because it may have some shortcomings it is criticised and condemned. Shame on you! And shame on me for dignifying such sectarianism with a response. I checked out the site because it was spammed into my email. I doubt that I shall return. My heart aches to read such venom and divisiveness. I close by recommending another Scripture: John 17:20-23. Gotta run.Sam
-- Anonymous, September 07, 1999
Interesting forum discussion entitled "Reject Promise Keepers" is going on at Given Blakely's forum at the following address:http://www.hotboards.com/powerf orum/pwrforum.exe?who=probetruth&id=1162.78307634545649
-- Anonymous, September 07, 1999
One thing that bothers me the most about many within our movement today is the judgmental attitude that we tend to take. One post said that one very large church in Louisville, Ky- (i.e. Bob Russell) was preaching that the doctrine of baptism is "Ours". Where and when did he ever say that? I stand by my brother Russell! But if he is teaching falsely, give it too me! Plus anyone who loved to go to PK is almost labled a "pagan". Lord Help us! Will we ever learn!Every statement that is made pro- PK is quickly slammed! I am sure I will see a post rebuking me! But, I want to say this... I AM NOT ASHAMED OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION TO EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES. And if a denominational person wants to know about the plan of slavation then I will tell him. But to say if he has not been baptized that He believes in a different God- that is stupid! I am sick of reading the phariseeism type post that proclaims that. I treat a person who claims to be christian and has not been baptized as a person in error, but not a son of the devil! I have preached the gospel at PK events and I have even preached the gospel on TBN, and I have never wavered in my faith or in what is biblical. To say that to go to PK events means that you compromise then- you all are full of it!
PS. TO ALL DR CHAMBERS FANS: I am an alumnus of FCC and DR. Chambers may have been a great teacher... but he is not God--perhaps that is why I transfered to JBC.
-- Anonymous, September 08, 1999
Here we go again...Funny, you seem to have more tolerance for PKs then your accappella brethren... of them, you wrote:
but until they stop being judgmental and take a different approach to scripture, then I can not totally unite.
Because someone quoted a respected Christian preacher and professor, you wrote:
DR. Chambers may have been a great teacher... but he is not God
But of another great teacher, you wrote:
Where and when did he ever say that? I stand by my brother Russell!
Then you wrote:
perhaps that is why I transfered to JBC.
Perhaps? If you have something to say, say it.
Judgementally, you wrote:
One thing that bothers me the most about many within our movement today is the judgmental attitude that we tend to take.
Then you wrote:
I treat a person who claims to be christian and has not been baptized as a person in error
-- Anonymous, September 08, 1999
Brother Kelly:I want to respond to your recent post out of concern for those among the promise keepers who have never obeyed the gospel and in defense of the brethren in this forum who want to preach the gospel to them. I have guoted your words in bold type.
One thing that bothers me the most about many within our movement today is the judgmental attitude that we tend to take.
I cannot know what you are talking about in this statement. You offer as an example the comments made by someone that Brother Russell is teaching false doctrine. I do not know brother Russell, where he is preaching nor anything that he teaches, however, If I should hear him or read any of his teaching I will follow what the word of God tells me to do. I will, prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. If he is teaching false doctrine, then he must be resisted. For there are many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision, WHOSE MOUTHS MUST BE STOPPED; men who overthrow whole houses, TEACHING THINGS WHICH THEY NOT, for filthy lucres sake. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beast, and idle gluttons. This testimony is true For which cause REPROVE THEM SHARPLY, that they may be SOUND IN THE FAITH, not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. To the pure all things are pure: but to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; but by their works they deny Him, being abominable, and DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:10-16. If he is teaching the truth we must support him in it. For the Church is the, Pillar and support of the truth 1 Tim. 3:15. Therefore you can see the need for Christians to be discriminating or to exercise judgement in determining whether one is teaching the truth. Or actions and responses are based on this decision. So, if you are condemning Christians for exercising judgement in order to follow Gods commands to reject, resist and fight false teachers as well as to support those who teach the truth then you have erred grievously. I think however that you have only thought that we are judging their final destiny before the Lord. This I deny that anyone has done.
Then you charge us with a false labeling:
Plus anyone who loved to go to PK is almost labeled a "pagan". Lord Help us! Will we ever learn!
I have read most of these posts and have not found anyone who has been labeled with anything even remotely near to a pagan. Then you pray that the Lord will help us and ask when will we ever learn. I pray that the Lord will help you to learn that Christians should not attend events organized by those who are not Christians without the fullest intent to preach the Gospel to them. Notice the admonition of John, Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching hath both the father and the son. If any one come to you and bring not this teaching, RECEIVE him NOT into your house, and GIVE HIM NO GREETING: FOR HE THAT GIVETH HIM GREETING PARTAKETH IN HIS EVIL DEEDS. 2John 9-11. Now I do not believe that you think that the PKs are teaching the truth of the gospel, at least you have not affirmed such. If they are not teaching the gospel of Christ then it is your responsibility, as a Christian, to teach them. Matt. 28:19,20. Mark 16:15,16.
You further tell us:
And if a denominational person wants to know about the plan of salvation then I will tell him.
Brother, I hope that you can see that it would be hard for you to know that such a person was denominational until you had made that judgement concerning him. Tell us just how you make those judgements without being guilty of being judgmental in the way that you use this term when accusing us of the same error? I do not believe that it is wrong to determine, by comparing a persons teaching with the word of God, that he is denominational, or non- Christian, or lost without Christ, etc. But when you see us doing it you call it Judgmental. Now you show, in your own words, that you do the exact same as us but it is not judgmental of you. The legs of the lame are seldom equal.
But you tell us that, if he ask you, then you will teach him the gospel. What if he does not ask you but he needs to know the truth? Will you just leave him to die, without having obeyed the gospel? Look at the fate that awaits those who do not obey the gospel in 2 Thess. 1: 7-10 before you answer. Will you allow this blessed soul for whom our Lord died and to whom our Lord commanded you to go and preach the gospel to every creature, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; Mark 16:15,16. He did not say, Just sit back and wait until they come to you and beg you to preach the gospel. The Lord ordered us to GO, not to WAIT for the lost to come. Your words imply that you think that those who have not obeyed the gospel are safe or they show that you know they are lost but you are not very concerned about it. If you knew those who have not been baptized in obedience to the gospel are lost why would you WAIT until they come to you to teach them.
I have not suggested that we not attend the PK meets. I have only said that when you go among these people that so many of you think are seeking a closer walk with the Lord that you have found a perfect opportunity to teach them the gospel of Christ and to make Christians of them. But what I hear coming out of most of those attending is that they feel no need to preach to them. Some have even implied that the PKs are already Christians. This is the issue. Are you partaking in the false teaching of salvation by faith only without obedience to the gospel or will you stand up and teach them the truth because you Love the Lord and therefore obey Him and because you love the Lost and are seeking them as Jesus did. I am come to seek and save that which was lost. Luke 19:10.
You insist to accuse of things we have never said:
But to say if he has not been baptized that He believes in a different God- that is stupid! I am sick of reading the phariseeism type post that proclaims that.
Now, Brother Kelly, no one has ever said that a person who is not baptized believes in another God! To say that anyone has said it in this forum is dishonest if not egregiously ignorant. Read these post and find anyone of them that has ever made such a claim. I have not seen one anywhere in this forum. Are you trying to prejudice everyone against us by accusing us of saying things, which we have never said? If you are sick of reading such post I recommend that you read post here instead of the ones you have conjured up in your imagination for, I repeat, no one has said such in this forum. So you have not found pharaseeism in this forum you have only imagined it. Could it be that your mind was made up before you came to this forum that we said such things and, without checking, you felt safe in accusing us of it?
We are saying, however, that one who has not been baptized has not been obedient to the one Lord Jesus Christ and God, the father that we all believe in. We are saying that one must obey the gospel to be saved. 1 Cor. 15:1-4. And that the only way to obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (the Gospel) is in the act of Baptism. Rom. 6:3-6; Col. 2:12. And that those who do not obey this Gospel will be suffer the vengeance of Christ. 2 Thess 1:7-10. Thus you can see why we persuade men. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men. Brother do not let the gospel be veiled in any place for as Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 4:3,4, And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to them that PERISH: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
Now you want to compare the way you treat an unbaptized person with the way we you imagine that we treat them.
I treat a person who claims to be Christian and has not been baptized as a person in error, but not a son of the devil!
If a person is not in Christ he cannot be a new creature. Wherefore IF any man is in Christ he is a new creature. 2 Cor. 5:17. We are baptized into Christ. Gal 3:26,27. Thus a person who is not baptized is not in Christ and is therefore not a new creature. If he is not a new creature he clearly has not been born again and Jesus said, except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:3-5. Paul tells us, giving thanks to God, the father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of Gods dear son. Col 1:12,13. There are only two places we can be; either in the kingdom of darkness or the kingdom of Gods dear son. Christ is the one that decides which kingdom we are in and he is the one that told us in John 3:3-5 that one cannot enter the kingdom unless he is born of water and the spirit. Where does this put the person who has not been baptized? Of course the truth should be preached in Love (Eph 4:15) but we must not pretend that those who have not been baptized are in the kingdom of God. For we cannot include them, nor can we exclude them, we can only tell them that the Lord has said that if they are not born of water and the spirit they cannot enter the kingdom. Now, we need to tell them what Jesus said and stop this false piety that we are too kind and loving, and sweet to tell them the truth of God that they might be saved!
The nonsense about Brother Chambers, whom I have never known until two weeks ago, does not deserve a response. No one thinks of him any more highly that you think of Brother Russell. How would you feel if they accused you of believing that Brother Russell was God?
As to why you left one college to go to another, I cannot see that such is important to our discussion. But you say perhaps as if you are not sure as to why you left one college to attend another. Does any of this matter in this discussion?
I pray that you will turn to God and the word of his grace and be obedient to His command to preach the gospel to those who have not heard it wherever you go, including PK meetings.
Your brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 09, 1999
Mr. Saffold, Would you consider a "faith alone" gospel a "different gospel" as Paul puts it?
-- Anonymous, September 10, 1999
Brother Muse:I am happy to read your post in this forum. I especially appreciate your previous post where you settled the issue about the importance of teaching the truth with great patience and to not give up on those who strongly resist the gospel. You also showed how that we are not being unchristian and unloving when we teach the truth even when it offends someone and when it is contrary to what some honest souls have believed all of their lives. I thank you for making that very clear to all of us.
Your conversion reminds me of the conversion of the most stubborn man that I read of in the New Testament. Our beloved apostle Paul so resisted the gospel that nothing short of the actual appearance of the resurrected Lord could convince this honest, but stubborn man of the truth. Christ even told him, it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. I must tell you, Brother Muse, that I am happy and honored to have met such a one as yourself in this forum.
I also appreciate the question that you have asked me to answer, which I now quote below:
Mr. Saffold, Would you consider a "faith alone" gospel a "different gospel" as Paul puts it?
Your question refers to what Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said to the brethren in Galatia. I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; Which is not another gospel, only there are some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA. As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA. Gal. 1:6-9.
This passage is filled with valuable lessons that need to be brought out here in this forum but I will confine myself to the answering of your excellent question. There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul condemns those who preach any gospel, other than the gospel of Christ.
In answering any question relating to the teaching of the word of God it is always my intent to show only what Gods word says and to leave my opinions out of it. Therefore, I will answer this question from the word of God to see if He considers a faith alone gospel to be a different gospel than the gospel of Christ.
The Holy Spirit, through the inspired word of God, shows the doctrine of salvation by faith only is a different gospel than that taught by the apostle Paul and anyone teaching or believing such doctrine will be ANATHEMA.
We are saved by the gospel. Therefore, any gospel that cannot save is a different gospel than the one that Paul preached. The gospel of faith only cannot save therefore such is a different gospel than the gospel of Christ. That we are saved by the gospel is evident from the declaration of Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in Romans 1:16, for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. He further told the Corinthians that we are saved by the gospel and defined the gospel for us in 1 Corintians 15:1-4: Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are SAVED, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye BELIEVED IN VAIN. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures.
Three things are clear, from the above passages: 1.) That the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. 2.) That we are saved by it if we hold fast the word. 3.) that if we do not hold fast this word we will have BELIEVED IN VAIN. Here at least two things are necessary to salvation. One, believing the gospel and, two holding fast to it. If we believe it but do not hold fast we will have believed in vain. Therefore faith alone is faith in vain.
One need only read from the second chapter of James to see that faith only cannot justify or save us. What doeth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith but have not works? Can faith save him? if a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, and one of you say unto them, go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet you give them not the things needful to the body; what doeth it profit? Even so faith, if it have not works, is DEAD IN ITSELF. Yea, a man may say, thou hast faith and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Thou believest that God is one; Thou doest well; THE DEMONS BELIEVE, and shudder. But wilt thou know O VAIN MAN that FAITH APART FROM WORKS IS BARREN? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the alter? Thou seest that FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, and by WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reconed unto him for rightousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified and NOT ONLY BY FAITH. And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messangers, and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so FAITH APART FROM WORKS IS DEAD. James 2:14-26.
This passage from James begins by asking the same question that you have asked in a slighty different way; and he concludes that the gospel of faith only cannot save. We are told by James, ye see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT BY FAITH ONLY. (KJV) James 2:24. Now even a simple minded person, such as myself, would need educated help to misunderstand what James so clearly says. He tells us that we are NOT JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ONLY. Now when we remember that James was writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit we can hear the voice of God plainly telling us that faith alone will not justify us.
Notice that faith alone is described by brother James as: 1.) Dead in itself; 2.) accepted by vain men 3.) the kind of faith that the demons possess. 4.) barren 5.) imperfect 6.) dead being alone. Now if anyone thinks and teaches others that they can be saved by a faith that is: dead in itself, that is a common faith of demons, that is barren and imperfect, then he is believing and teaching a gospel that is other than and contrary to the very gospel of Christ.
The Bible teaches that we are saved by faith. Romans 5:1. In the exact same chapter we are told that the blood of Christ saves us. Romans 5:9. Grace saves us. Romans 3:24. We are saved by the name of Jesus. 1 Cor. 6:11. We are saved by the spirit of God. 1 Cor. 6:11. We are saved by works. James 2:24. We are saved by confession. Romans 10:9,10. We are saved by repentance. Acts 2:38, 3:19; Luke 13:3. We are saved by Baptism. Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21.
Now we may be justified by grace but not by grace alone; by Christ but not by Christ alone; by the blood of Christ but not by His blood alone; by the Spirit, but not by the Spirit alone; in the name of Jesus by not by His name alone; By works, but not by works alone; by repentance but not by repentance alone; by confession but not by confession alone; by baptism but not by baptism alone; by faith but not by faith alone. You see it is the addition, by vain men, of this little word only or alone that makes the doctrine of salvation by faith only a different gospel than the gospel of Christ. And through it they destroy the very essence of faith and all the hope of receiving the promises offered through the true gospel of Christ. This gospel, by which we are saved, is found to have Facts to be believed commands to be obeyed, and promises to be received.
1. The facts to be believed are 1. Christ died for our sins, 2. He was buried, and that he was raised again on the third day according to the scriptures. 1 Cor. 15:1-4. All of this demonstrated the fundamental truth that comprises the good confession that all saints have made in becoming Christians and living faithfully as Christians. That Confession is the fact that Christ is the son of the living God. Romans 1:4,5; Romans 10:9,10; Matthew 10:31-32; Matthew 16:16; 1 Timothy 6; 11-16; Acts 17:31. 2. The Commands to be obeyed (2 Thessalonians 1: 7-10) are: 1. Believe John 3:16; Hebrews 11:6. 2. Repent of our sins Acts 2:38; Luke 13:3; Acts 3:19. 3. Confess Christ. Romans 10:9,10; Matthew 10:31-32; 16; 16. 4. Be immersed. Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19,20; Acts 2:38,39; Galatians 3:26,27; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:3-5; Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:3-5; Hebrews 10:22; Romans 6:3-6; Acts 8: 9- 25; Acts 8:35-40. 3. The promises to be received are: 1.) Remission of sins. Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 22:16. 2.) The gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2; 38,39; Acts 5:32; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19; Romans 5:5; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans 8:9-11. 3. Eternal Life. John 3:16; Romans 6:23.
If we believe the glorious facts of the Gospel of Christ and Humbly submit and obey the commands of our Lord which are connected with this gospel (1 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Matthew 7:21-23; Luke 6:46) we will receive all of the Promises that God grants through the gospel. Faith in the facts of the gospel that does not lead us to obey the Lords commands of the gospel will not make us the recipients of the promises found in the gospel. You see that Our Lord is not the author of eternal salvation to those who merely give mental assent to the facts of the gospel but to those who OBEY HIM. Though he was a son yet learned he OBEDIENCE by the things which he suffered; and having been made perfect, he became to all them that OBEY HIM the author of eternal salvation. Hebrews 5: 8, 9. He does not claim to be the author of eternal salvation to those who ONLY BELIEVE in Him but to those who OBEY Him.
This is the reason that we find examples in the New Testament of those who believed in Christ that were not saved. For all they had was faith only. They refused to confess or obey Him. Nevertheless even of the rulers many believed on Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they LOVED THE GLORY OF MEN more than the glory that is of God. John 12:42,43. Notice that these people believed but they did not confess. We are told in Romans 10:10 that confession is made unto salvation therefore these men, who believed in Christ, were not saved because they would not confess him. All they had was faith only. They loved the glory of men more than the Glory of God. When Christ has the opportunity to confess that He knows these men in the judgement, even though they believed on him he will deny them before God. Matthew 10:31-33. Thus we see an example of how faith only will not save.
Another example is found in these words from God, As he spake these things, many BELIEVED on Him. Jesus therefore said unto those Jews that believed him, If ye abide in my words then are ye truly my disciples; John 8:30,31. Then when we go further in this chapter where Jesus is speaking to these same BELIVERS he says this to them, But now ye seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, we were not born of fornication; Jesus said unto them, If God were your father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me. Why do you not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father it is your will to do. He was the murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: For he is a liar and the father thereof. But because I say the truth ye believe me not. It is obvious that when he began talking to these Jews many believed on him but by the time he finished his exchange with them they had changed their minds and did not believe him. If one were saved by faith only at the very moment that he first believes on Christ then these people would have been saved. And if once a person is saved he is always saved; then they would have been saved after they changed their minds and sought to kill our Lord, while they were still Children of the devil. Can anyone reasonably believe that this is the same gospel preached by Paul? Surely not!
Read all of the examples of the preaching of the gospel and those who were converted by it in the book of Acts. If one does this, he will be stricken by the fact that none of the evangelist preached salvation by faith only and none of those converted were saved by faith alone.
Let us notice the example of the Ethiopian eunuch found in Acts 8:35- 40. Here the eunuch heard Phillip begin at the scripture that he was reading and all we are told that Phillip preached to Him was Jesus. As a result of hearing Phillip preach Jesus the first thing that came to the eunuchs mind and out of his mouth when he saw water was, see here is water, what doeth hinder me to be immersed? Now just here I would like to comment that if one were to listen to modern day sectarian preachers preaching Jesus, the last thing that would cross their minds, even if they drove the car straight into a river of water would be what doeth hinder me to be immersed? Modern preachers, because they preach faith only do not include anything about immersion in water when they preach Jesus. SO we can see in this example alone that modern preachers are preaching a different gospel that the one preached in the New Testament.
I recommend the reading of all of the examples of conversion again with a view to comparing what is preached today with what was preached then and you will see that faith only is surely a different gospel. Acts 2:1-47; Acts 8:9-40; Acts 9:17-18; 22:16;Acts 10:34-46; Acts 16:32;Acts 16:13.
I hope that this answers the question, Brother Muse. I apologize for the delay in answering you but I have to do these thins when I am not working. I hope that you understand.
I do want, however to notice one more thing. Inasmuch as this has been discussed in the thread dealing with the PKs, I want to point out that it is the Faith Only gospel that is being preached at the Pk meetings. It is, as I believe we have shown a different gospel and Paul says let them be Anathema. Yet, we have brethren here in this forum who are happy and pleased to attend and Joyously listen to another gospel being preached and they feel no need and have no intention to preach the true gospel of Christ to these PKs. These men are heading toward a devastating shipwreck concerning the faith. Let us warn them with strong appeals, prayers and tears so that they will not be anathema along with the others who preach another gospel.
I pray that our Lord will abundantly bless you with the joy of his presence.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 12, 1999
Brother Burton:I have hesitated to respond to your post because you said that you were not returning to this site. It appears very much like the typical hit and run tactic used by those who do not have the courage of their convictions to stand for them. But just in case you are still around, I want to respond to your astonishment.
I quote your words with responses as follows:
I am Astounded! Hundreds of thousands of men gathering to seek God, to be more Christ like, to be better husbands and fathers, to seek to break down walls of racism, denominationalism and many other kinds of isms and yet because it may have some shortcomings it is criticised and condemned.
You seem to be greatly impressed by numbers. You mention that hundreds of thousands of men are gathering. What if one or two men gathered for the same purpose and we met with them to teach them the gospel of Christ? Would you be astonished that we criticized them for their failure to obey the gospel of Christ?
You say that they are gathering for the following purposes:
1.) to seek God
If they are truly seeking God, can not we, who are Christians and know the true gospel wherein they can be saved and reconciled to God, help them by preaching the truth that will help them to find the God that they are seeking?
2.) To be more like Christ.
Then they would not object to being obedient to God by being immersed, as Jesus Christ himself was at the hands of John the Baptist. If you truly believe that they are trying to be more like Christ then why would you not ask them to follow our Lord into the obedient act of being immersed?
3.) To be better husbands and fathers. They will naturally be better husbands and fathers if they will follow the teachings of Christ as found in the word of God. However, no father can be a good father that neglects to lead his family to the salvation that is found in Christ through the obedience to the gospel of Christ. (1 Cor. 15:1-4; 2 Thess. 1:7-9.) Thus, when we neglect to teach them the gospel of Christ and urge them to be obedient to it, and to lead their families to do the same, we allow them to fail their families in their MOST IMPORTANT area of responsibility. Remember Joshua said, as for me and my house we will serve Jehovah? And the Phillipian Jailer led his entire house to obey the gospel and to be immersed into Christ. Act 16: 32. This also happened in the house of Cornelius. Acts 10:24, 44-48. What good is it to be a wonderful father who ignored the spiritual well being of his family? If they are truly concerned about their families then how can you let them remain ignorant of the gospel? They can save their families by leading them to obey the gospel of Christ so that they can avoid the vengeance that Christ is bringing upon those who know not God and those who obey not the gospel of Christ? 2 Thess 1:7-9. How can you remain silent and idly sit and watch as false doctrines that cannot save are being taught to these honest souls who are seeking to be better fathers? Is this not the most treacherous form of cowardice, irresponsibility, and overt disobedience to the command of Christ in Matthew 28:19,20 that we have ever witnessed? 4.) To beak down walls of racism, denominationalism. All of these walls exist outside of Christ. None of them exist in Christ. Paul, By inspiration said, For as many of you as have been immersed into Christ did put on Christ. For there can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be neither male nor female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:26,27. The most dangerous separation that these PKs face is their seperation from Christ. The walls of racism and denominationalism cannot be broken down until the great wall of separation between God and man is first broken down. Christ our blessed Lord has broken down that wall and has provided the means of our reconciliation to God. Eph. 2:11-22. So again you have the answer to the racism and denominationalism they seek to break down. And yet, for fear of offending them, you merely stand there in astonishment allowing them to be ignorant of the truth that will help them to accomplish these high and noble goals that you say they have set for themselves. For this, brother, indeed you should be ashamed of yourself.
We do not criticize nor condemn the promise keepers for their noble goals. Nor do we condemn the intent of anyone seeking Christ, as you claim the promise keepers are doing. But, we do sharply rebuke those who know they are seeking Christ and know the truth that will set them free and will lead these honest souls to Christ and yet with hold it from them! You, brother, from your own words have so classified yourself as one who feels no need to preach the gospel to them.
I repeat that none have said do not go to a PK meeting but all have said go and teach them the gospel of Christ. If you go there to fellowship and participate in their false teaching and neglect your duty to teach the truth and preach the gospel then you are a partaker of their evil deeds. 2 John 9-11. You cannot avoid sectarianism by joining the sects but only by making proper use of the time spent around them to teach the truth. Sectarianism does not vanish just by blending in with them and ignoring the very false principles that they teach which is the primary cause of sectarianism. Brother you can see then that you are supporting sectarianism when you agree with them that it does not matter which sect they belong to so long as they love Christ. You should tell them that they should love Christ enough to leave their sect and belong only to Him.
Then you speak of the condition of your heart and it does bear examining since you have brought it to light.
My heart aches to read such venom and divisiveness.
Why does your heart feel such ache at your illusion of divisiveness and venom? But it cannot be brought to ache for those poor honest souls who, according to you are seeking God, trying to be more like Christ, and to break down walls of denominationalism, that have not heard of the precious gospel of Christ. This gospel will save them and their families from sin. It will break down the walls and will put them into Christ wherein resides all spiritual blessings. It will give them hope and life ever lasting. You have in your mind, as a Christian, the knowledge of the way to all the things that they are seeking. Yet, sadly, there you stand! Astounded, but not moved to action of any kind to plead for their salvation. Then, as if inaction were not enough, you see some of us suggest that we should preach the gospel to them and your, Heart begins to ache and imagine venom. If I did not know better, I would be fully convinced that you are deliberately working for the enemy! For he is the serpent that has the true venom which is the lies that he spreads to destroy the very souls of our friends among the promise keepers who are struggling to fight back bravely for their familys sake. You have the answer and you know of the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. But there you stand! Astounded, with an aching heart, because someone dares to suggest that a gathering of hundreds of thousands of men who are seeking God, to be more like Christ, to be better husbands and fathers is an excellent place to preach the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Brother, I pray fervently for you for if you are not deliberately working for our archenemy, Satan, then he has deceived you. Beware of the wiles of the devil. For he as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour. If you continue to walk contrary to the truth of God you may be devoured.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 14, 1999
Thank you Mr. Saffold for taking the time and making the effort to teach with the word! There is much to consider in your response to my last post. I pray ALL will consider it carefully - searching and studying the scriptures you have given.Coming from a denomination - I can not stress the importance of sticking to and telling others the truth, even though they may think they are christian. If I(who had never even heard of the Christian Church/Church of Christ/Restoration movement - until I was 31 years old) can see the urgency to dispell the lies men and satan have created about salvation, why is it that some men and women who have been in the Christian Church/Church of Christ for years see these lies as harmless? Or is it that they do not see them as lies?
I will beg you again...stand firm, preach, teach, admonish, persuade, argue, & contend...for without such, men will not be saved!
Bro. Danny...no intrusion at all, I eagerly accept & appreciate all Biblical wisdom. Thank you for the confirmation.
Gentlemen... so many assumptions, I must set the record straight...the "D" in DLeeMuse stands for Debi. As I have mentioned to a couple of you, I know from scripture that I am not allowed to Preach, but do take very seriously my Christian duty to evangelize. I am also very greatful to soak up any knowledge I can learn from you gentlemen!!
-- Anonymous, September 16, 1999
Great Forum, Just because I am silent doesn't mean I am not out there. You couldn't hear my "amens" and "applause" in the last dissertation that you did, Lee. Now I have some material to just highlight and copy over to those who continue the argument. I especially liked the one about the Eunuch and driving their car in the water. It just keeps coming around to the question, are we really people of the book or not? I hope I am. I try to be. I pray for those who lack a clear understanding of the concept. I am disturbed by the Christians who can't take a stand on the Truth, no matter how difficult it may seem at times. Although is not really that difficult!
-- Anonymous, September 20, 1999
Dennis:Thank you for the kind words you have said about my last dissertation. There are indeed many things in the word of God that sectarian preachers, or those who are preaching a different gospel, cannot teach. I once asked a sectarian preacher if he would stand up on Sunday morning and simply quote Mark 16:16 and Acts 2;38 and sit down. I promised that on the same day I would quote John 3:16 and sit down. I suggested that this would be a sure way of showing that we believe what the scriptures teach. He refused for he was afraid that someone would misunderstand if he did not explain what these verses meant. We were in the home of one of the members of his denomonation. We immersed her into Christ the same hour of the night that he left. It was clear that he had little confidence in the word of God and the capability for men to understand it without his explainations. You are right. Either we are people that have faith in the word of God or we are not. There is no middle ground. We can chose between two ways, the way of Life or the way of death. We can be in only one of two kingdoms, the kingdom of God or of Satan. We can only chose one master, either we obey Christ or we obey Satan. We seek God or we hate God. There is no such thing as a nominal Christian. With Christ it is all or nothing. Many talk much about being disciples of Christ but the Lord said that certain types of people CAN NOT BE HIS DISCIPLES. If any man cometh to me and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and HIS OWN LIFE ALSO, he CAN NOT be MY DISCIPLE. Whosoever doeth not BEAR HIS OWN CROSS, and COME AFTER ME, cannot be my disciple. So therefore whosoever he be of you that RENOUNCETH NOT ALL THAT HE HATH, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26,27,33. These words strike at the very heart of those who seek to focus on the family and ignore the gospel of Christ. Those who seek to lead a better life without first totally committing those lives to Christ. Who want to obtain forgiveness while harboring in their hearts a stubborn will that refuses to submit to the Captian of our souls in all things. He is in fact the, Author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him. Heb. 5:8,9. It is hard for me to imagine people asking the Lord Jesus the questions that they often ask those who bring the gospel of Jesus to them. For example, would anyone stand before our Lord and ask. Is this a salvation issue? Would they say, I know that you have told us to partake of the Communion in your memory, but, Lord is this a salvation issue? I know that you have said that he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but is this a salvation issue. I know that you have commanded all men everywhere to repent but is this a salvation issue? I know that you met with the apostles after your resurrection on the first day of the week and that the apostles set the example of our meeting on that day to break bread and they taught us thereby to do this also, but is this a salvation issue? I know that we have been commanded to contend earnestly for the faith: but is this a salvation issue? I can just hear our Lord repeating his words to those who had similar attitudes during his earthly ministry, Why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46. And Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of God but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:21. And again, These people honoreth me with their lips but their heart is FAR FROM ME. But in VAIN do they worship me teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men. Matthew 15:7-9. Our Lord paid the ultimate price for our redemption and we want to know just what is the absolute bare minimum that he requires of us. We want to know if we will be lost for failing to obey him in some matters that are not so convienient for us to do. Our Lord has made it clear. He wants it ALL. Our life, our work, or time, our money and everything else that we can imagine are His. We are to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to him. Whatever he says that we must do. Either the word of God teaches something or it does not teach it. But if we find that the word of God commands us to do something we dare not ask if it is a salvation Issue. As if there are some of his commands that we can willfully ignore and still claim that we have offered our whole life as a sacrifice to Him and can expect salvation without total commitment and humble obedience. We appear to want to offer only a very small portion of ourselves to the Lord. We want to know and do just the bare essentials and not a bit more. Many look constantly for that one verse that covers it all. The ten commandments are often treated this way. Oh, we are told just follow those ten and you will be ok. This is the sorce of faith only. All you HAVE TO DO is believe. Nothing else is required of thee. This attitude is the source of all of our talk about Essentials and Salvation Issues. The Lord is our savior and all that he requires or even gently ask of us it is our duty to do. To ignore any such would be to reject the very Lordship of Christ. We will NEVER be one IN Christ until we are all one WITH Christ. NEVER!
One day the Lord will require our soul in the same way that he required the rich farmers soul who had planned to take his ease and eat, drink and be marry but the Lord will one day say, this night thy souls shall be required of thee. Some may even then say, Lord, is this a salvation issue?
I admire your work and your faith, Dennis. You are doing a great work with the suite101 website. I know that you and I have fought a few battles there against false doctrine. You have been very diligent in that work and I thank our Lord for you.
I pray that the peace of God will abide with you and that many years of faithful service are ahead of you so that those who need to hear of our Lord will have the opportunity to hear you.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 21, 1999
Brother Saffold:After calling into question my courage, my motives and possibly even my allegiance to Christ, I am surprised that you still call me "Brother". But for that, at least, I thank you. As I prayed over how to respond to your very critical and personal remarks (or whether to respond at all) a scripture came to mind. I quote it as said response,
"Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or my any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My concience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." I Corinthians 4:2-5.
-- Anonymous, September 27, 1999
Hey, I just wanted any interested persons to know that I just got back from a Promise Keepers meeting.... it was awesome! On the opening session thousands of men came to the Lord by faith. They were then told to be baptized to complete the salvation process by the MC who was a Christian Church Minister from Seattle (Past PK President). All speakers exhorted the men to be better fathers and husbands. I could really feel the power and presence of the Lord God Almighty in that place! The music band (Maranatha Praise) was great as they led us in worship that was powerful and uplifting- we really rocked the house! I wish that all churches could enjoy music like that! I am quickly implimenting it in the church I serve at (by the way they really want contemporary praise and worship).Hallelujah.... there are men who still want to come to the Lord Almighty and bow their heads in humble submission. Oh, my soul was full of joy as I watched and participated with over 20,000 men as we prayed, cried, shouted, praised, the King of kings and the Lord of lords. Perhaps... we in the C.C/C.C need to praise God like that! "Many churches (to quote Cecil Todd) have more fire under the coffee pots than within the live of the worshippers" Lord help us and thank you for Promise Keepers!
-- Anonymous, September 28, 1999
Mr. Kelley,Could you tell me how many were baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit at this Promise Keepers meeting? It is great to hear that the MC taught that baptism is a part of salvation!!
-- Anonymous, September 28, 1999
If you believe that those who "came forward" were told the TRUE terms of pardon, I've got some land in the jungle that I'd like to sell them!!! Any takers. Why don't we grow up in the faith? I'm about ready to get sick!
-- Anonymous, September 28, 1999
It does not surprise me in the slightest to see that the likes of Jim Spinatti would be the one to show such lack of respect in the midst of debate. Please stay in bounds, guys. Ad hominem remarks help no one. You'd think by attending a PK conference you were joining the first church of Satan. I personally can not wait till October 15-16th here in Des Moines where I will be attending Promise Keepers for the fourth time. The ones who say that they've been teaching the same thing for a long time are flatly not telling the truth, because I know some of them and their church connections and I also know that they have just as many fractured families as any other church does. If you don't like PK, fine. But it has helped me and countless others to become better husbands and fathers, and in the long run I guess that is a good thing. If my kid was dying and needed help that could only be found in the Shriner's Children's Hospital then you better bet that I'd take him there, but that doesn't mean I support Masonic teachings or that I'm going to become a Mason. It means that I have gotten what I needed from them and the same is true of PK. They have something that I and many others needed and simply were not getting or hearing growing up or in Bible College. That does not mean that by attending that we have become Calvinist any more than by singing a hymn by that Calvinist Fanny J. Crosby (who was a woman by the way but that's a whole other issue, please refer to "Thoughts on Feminism" - just kidding).
-- Anonymous, September 28, 1999
Brother Burton:I will quote what you have said in your previous post so that all can see exactly what we are discussing. You first wrote with the purpose of supporting promise keepers and to shame" us for criticizing and condemning what you called its mere shortcomings. Then you accused us without evidence of being sectarian just because of our criticism of those so-called shortcomings. Then you said that you doubted if you would return. Then you finished by accusing us of displaying venom and divisiveness. I will quote those words so that all that read my response to you can be reminded of what you said and the exact words to which I responded. You words were as follows:
I am Astounded! Hundreds of thousands of men gathering to seek God, to be more Christ like, to be better husbands and fathers, to seek to break down walls of racism, denominationalism and many other kinds of isms and yet because it may have some shortcomings it is criticised and condemned. Shame on you! And shame on me for dignifying such sectarianism with a response. I checked out the site because it was spammed into my email. I doubt that I shall return. My heart aches to read such venom and divisiveness. I close by recommending another Scripture: John 17:20-23. Gotta run.
Now anyone reading your remarks quoted above would not think that you were being kind, understanding and respectful toward those of us who do not support promise keepers. In fact it would be clear that you referred to our words as venom and divisiveness. You sought, without question to shame us. We did not condemn you for these very critical and personal remarks we only challenged the truthfulness of your claim.
Then after I responded to your very critical and personal remarks you respond with the following words:
After calling into question my courage, my motives and possibly even my allegiance to Christ, I am surprised that you still call me "Brother". But for that, at least, I thank you. As I prayed over how to respond to your very critical and personal remarks (or whether to respond at all) a scripture came to mind. I quote it as said response, "Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. I care very little if I am judged by you or my any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My concience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." I Corinthians 4:2-5.
With these words you complain that I have called your courage into question. In truth, it was your casting in such critical remarks toward us and telling us that you did not intend to stay around or return to notice anyones response to you that brought some doubt about your courage. You have returned and we must therefore admit that you had the courage to do so and thus I apologize for calling your courage into question. Unfortunately, if you continue to support those who are adverse to the blessed gospel of Christ, and those who teach a faith only gospel as is taught among the sectarian pks we have no choice but to question your loyalty to our Lord Jesus Christ. But I cannot see where I have questioned your motives. I cannot know why you wish to fellowship non-Christians as if they were Christians. I cannot understand why a faithful Christian would seek fellowship with those who teach another gospel than the gospel of Christ. The closest that I may have come to questioning your motives was these words which I quote from my original response to you,
If I did not know better, I would be fully convinced that you are deliberately working for the enemy! For he is the serpent that has the true venom which is the lies that he spreads to destroy the very souls of our friends among the promise keepers who are struggling to fight back bravely for their familys sake. You have the answer and you know of the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. But there you stand! Astounded, with an aching heart, because someone dares to suggest that a gathering of hundreds of thousands of men who are seeking God, to be more like Christ, to be better husbands and fathers is an excellent place to preach the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this is questioning your motives I cannot apologize for it. I would like to know just why it is that you think it is wrong to question someones motives? I have not, nor would I accuse you of being motivated by some evil intent, without evidence. But to merely question just what it is that motivates you to side with those who are against Christ by teaching a doctrine in His name that is contrary to the truth is a reasonable question. In fact, such questioning is required by the word of God. Beloved believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God for many false prophets have gone out into the world. I John 4:1. Are we to believe that it is ok to try the spirits but not acceptable to question their motives? If I were to question your motives, such would only be a question and not an accusation. If I were to find evidence that your motives were evil then I would accuse you of it and offer the proof so that I could call upon you to repent. But it is clear that you can question our motives, for which I do not criticize you, but you are too sensitive to accept questions concerning your motives. The legs of the lame are seldom equal, brother.
You asked why I call you brother, while I question your motives. Now this is the one true assumption that I have made. I assumed that you have obeyed the blessed gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and have therefore believed in Him, repented of your sins and have been immersed into His death and risen to walk a new life. Acts 2:38, Gal 3;27, Romans 6:3-6. Now if I am wrong in this assumption I will cease from calling you brother. For if such were not the case you would not be in Christ (Gal 3:27) and therefore not a Christian. In that Case you would be my brother only in the sense that you are a descendent of Adam as am I. But I consider only those who are in Christ as my brothers even when they are grievously in error. For that reason alone do I try to correct them? In the case of those who are outside of Christ, I seek not merely to correct but to convert them to Christ our Lord. Paul told Timothy to reprove, rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and teaching. Because I assumed that you are my brother I have sought to do toward you as Paul did toward Peter and as he commanded Brother Timothy to do.
I appreciate the scripture that you have quoted for us and accept the admonition that it provides from our Lord and will do my best to abide by it. It implies however that you think that I have judged you. I have done nothing more that warn you that you are not following the teaching of the scripture by fellowshipping those who do not teach the doctrine of Christ. 2 John 9-11. Now, it is God who will judge you and it is I who have warned you that you disobey the judge. I did that to help a brother and to encourage others to not follow you. Paul did this when he withstood Peter to his face because he walked not uprightly according to the gospel.
It is indeed curious that you felt no need to follow this scripture, which you have quoted, when you wrote your original post. It did not stop you from writing very critical and personal remarks toward those of us who do not support those among the pks who preach another gospel than the gospel of Christ. It did not stop you from judging that we were displaying venom and divisiveness. This you said without even attempting to prove it to be true. How is it that you can accuse, without evidence, and criticize us personally, as a group, in such harsh terms and then "cry" that we have wronged you? It seems that you want us to just be silent and allow you to falsely accuse us without answering you in kind. This will not happen. If you speak the truth we will support what you have said but if you continue to speak that which is not true then we will continue to resist you and tell you clearly that you have erred.
I do pray that you will see the error of fellowshipping those who have not named the Name of Christ and bowed the knee and submitted to His Lordship by repenting and being immersed in accordance with his command. These are not just Christians from different backgrounds but are rather not Christians at all but are deceived, being deceived and leading others to be deceived into thinking that they are Christians without submitting to the Lordship of Christ in obedience to the gospel. You have the truth of the gospel, brother. I am urging you to preach it to them and convert them and then it would be appropriate to fellowship them because they are walking in the Light. For, what fellowship hath light with darkness?"
I pray for you brother.
You Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 28, 1999
Michael you need to listen to yourself sometime. ( It does not surprise me in the slightest to see that the likes of Jim Spinatti} What is with the phrase, THE LIKES? Now is that what a loving, caring, accepting Promise Keeper would do? No, that sounds more like what an evil, narrow minded, bigoted, conservative like me would say. Have I suddenly become your enemy because I tell you the truth?Now I dont mind that, but I just wish you would spell my name right.
Michael, we have had this discussion before on another web site. So, I will take the high road on this one and say, "I'll see you later Michael. Have a good night and a better day Wednesday."
Your Loving Brother,
Jim Spinnati {spelled right)
-- Anonymous, September 28, 1999
Well Jim, seems we've been in these here woods before. I must admit that there are a few of you (even some who are related to me) that can really get my dander up at the way we treat others. I am too much like you in my debating and jump all-too-easily into ad hominem style and that is not a good thing. You were not "just telling the truth" as you said, you were offensive to some guy I don't even know from Adam but simply has a different view of PK than you do. That ruffled my feathers. Now for my cutting remarks I apologize to you Jim, I hope you will take the "high road" and apologize for your rude remarks that were directed towards Mr. Kelley. A wise old sage once told me, you never should apologize for your position (I did not ask you to do that) but you should always be willing to apologize for your disposition. I hope you see the wisdom in that statment, it has saved me a great deal of grief over the years and it has honored our LORD which should be all of our aims, even when we are talking about things we flatly disagree upon.
-- Anonymous, September 29, 1999
How sad to read the blind judgmental attitude of many toward the Promise Keepers. I am not a card caring monthly attending member but have been to a few ralleys so as not to make uninformed judgments. Many men in my church have gone and are better men for it. They have become more active in the ministry of our church and in their homes. I feel many ministers will not support it from fear. Fear they will not be in control of the closed teaching of their people. I know a few ministers who hate for their people to realize that their are great speakers out there--better then themselves. How sad the dark ages of ignorance still exist in many of our so-called Christian churches. We hate and ridicule what we do not understand. I think that was Jesus description of the Phraisees and ministers come so close when they ridicule what they do not know. Crying for our churches, Gary
-- Anonymous, September 29, 1999
Wow... with all the throwing of mud... it is dirty in this room! I will continue to pray for those in this room to be more kind and also that Promise Keepers will grow to further effect husbands and fathers to be the men that God intended them to be.May the Love of Jesus and the power of His Holy Spirit dwell upon you!
-- Anonymous, September 29, 1999
Mr. Kelley,Could you tell me how many were baptized for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit at the recent PK meeting you attended?
-- Anonymous, September 30, 1999
Brother Kelly: I only Have a few moments to respond to what you have said in your post wherein you express concern over the cleanliness of this room. Then in a very self-righteous tone you pray that the love of Jesus and power of His Holy Spirit dwell upon us. Where you have learned that the Holy Spirit belongs to Christ our Lord as a possession I do not know. The Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead as is Christ our Lord. However, I quote your words below with a response following: Wow... with all the throwing of mud... it is dirty in this room! I will continue to pray for those in this room to be more kind and also that Promise Keepers will grow to further effect husbands and fathers to be the men that God intended them to be. May the Love of Jesus and the power of His Holy Spirit dwell upon you!-- AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), September 29, 1999.
Would the following messages from you be an example of what you are condemning as throwing Mud? To say that to go to PK events means that you compromise then- you all are full of it!
What did you mean by the words full of it? I suppose you meant full of MUD. But is it possible that you used this phrase in its common usage among those whose language is rather fowl?
Then you tell us: PS. TO ALL DR CHAMBERS FANS: I am an alumnus of FCC and DR. Chambers may have been a great teacher... but he is not God--perhaps that is why I transferred to JBC. -- Anthony D. Kelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), September 08, 1999.
I know little about Brother Chambers, but what I have read of his works marks him as very faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ. You have here insinuated that our brethren who know brother Chambers and love him for His works sake are worshipping him as God. Now you offer no proof that they are in fact guilty of this and it therefore appears that you were just slinging some MUD.
Then you refer to what you term accapella brethren and have the following to sling at them:
The accapella brethren plead for a "blue print" mentality of interpretation, where if it is not in scripture then leave it out. In my humble opinion that train of thought is silly!
I do not think that your accusation that those of us who do not use the instruments in worship are silly would be considered MUD SLINGING. But, your false representation of our mentality may be something similar to the misrepresentations between two parties who are involved in a mud slinging campaign. Fairness and honesty is not their utmost concern.
If you are concerned that the room is untidy then you could begin by cleaning up the mess that you made and thereby encourage others to do the same. But to come in slinging mud and return only to complain, rather self-righteously, that the room is dirty appears to be very hypocritical to say the least.
I do not object to just criticism but you consider all who would criticize promise keepers as MUD SLINGERS not because they have truly slung mud but rather because they do not agree with you. If we were to all just give up our loyalty to Christ and admit that everything you say is correct then I am sure that you would consider the room clean so long as we criticize others that disagree with you. You would like for us to tell them that they are, in your words, full of it regardless of whether such language is pure or not.
I do pray for you Brother Kelley.
Your Brother in Christ our Lord,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 30, 1999
This message will be posted when we receive a proper email address. obci2000@mva.com is not a known address
-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999
Brother Demastus:I will quote a few of your words from your recent post concerning promise keepers and respond to certain matters that indicate an attitude that is contrary to the scriptures. First you indicate an attitude of disrespect toward Brother Spinnati that appears rather negative with these words:
It does not surprise me in the slightest to see that the likes of Jim Spinnati would be the one to show such lack of respect in the midst of debate. Please stay in bounds, guys. Ad hominem remarks help no one.
Now if you really believe that ad hominem remarks help no one then what was it that you hoped to accomplish by your ad hominem remark the likes of Jim Spinnati? Did you mean to imply that Brother Spinnati was of such sterling Christian character that he would naturally show lack of respect in the mist of debate? I think not. It seems clear that you intended to imply that Brother Spinnati's character was the cause of his showing a lack of respect in the mist of debate. You did not leave any room for the possibility that you may have misunderstood the intent of his heart that caused him to utter words that you, and I emphasize you, thought were disrespectful. I do not think we could find a better example of an ad hominem remark, which you claim helps no one, than this one you have provided.
It is obvious therefore that you intended to help no one with that remark. Are we to conclude therefore that it was your intent to hurt someone instead? Is it reasonable for us to conclude that the only purpose behind your use of remarks that you already believed would help no one that it was your purpose to hurt your Brother, Spinnati? I surely hope that such was only a human error on your part that often happens when we are in the heat of debate. If this could happen to you, would you not then grant that such could happen to Brother Spinnati as well? I must tell you that I have not seen where Brother Spinnati has been guilty of making ad hominem remarks. He did graphically express the fact that he does not believe that the people who were baptized at the PK rally were told the true conditions of pardon any more than one would believe that swamp land was a good investment. This does not appear to be an attack on any person. Rather it is an expression of doubt about what was being taught at the PK rally where so many were reportedly baptized. You did not respond to his argument expressing doubt that these souls were taught the truth. Instead you attacked his character. But you believe that such remarks do not help any one. So you did not intend to help anyone. This sheds much light on your intentions. They do not appear to have been good ones.
Then you begin to tell us that you do not care if we like PK or not. But you cannot resist trying yet one more time to justify the fact that you support it with these words:
If you don't like PK, fine. But it has helped me and countless others to become better husbands and fathers, and in the long run I guess that is a good thing. If my kid was dying and needed help that could only be found in the Shriner's Children's Hospital then you better bet that I'd take him there, but that doesn't mean I support Masonic teachings or that I'm going to become a Mason. It means that I have gotten what I needed from them and the same is true of PK. They have something that I and many others needed and simply were not getting or hearing growing up or in Bible College.
With these words you claim that the end justifies the means. You say, it has helped me and countless others to become better husbands and fathers, and in the long run I guess that is a good thing. You say that you guess that is a good thing. If you are not sure why are you so aglow about how wonderful PK is? I believe that there is no doubt that helping others to be better husbands and fathers is a good thing. But I do not believe that ANY method that brings that result is a good thing. I remember, here in Alabama, when I was just a boy that the KKK had a reputation for stopping spousal abuse by beating husbands who would not support their families and who had been beating their wives and children. I remember many in our community using that as a justification for belonging to this evil organization. Because they believed that stopping the abuse was a good thing. But it did not cross their minds that it was wrong to do evil that good may come. Supporting an organization that uses the poor family life in America to lure people into hearing a false gospel so that they can believe that they are saved from their sins without truly being obedient to the gospel of Christ (1 Cor 15; 1-4; II Thess. 1:7-10) is the devils way of using good that evil may result. For what good is it if countless others become good husbands and fathers and in the process they are deceived into believing that they are saved from their sins by being better husbands and fathers and without being obedient to the gospel of Christ. According to 2 Thess. 1:9-10 they will face the vengeance of Christ because they were deceived into believing a false gospel and were thereby prevented by satan from obeying the gospel of Christ. Can it possibly be good for a Christian to support such an organization? I hope that you know enough of Gods word to know that it would not be good for a Christian to support such. Go there to teach those at the PK meetings the truth. If you become successful do not be surprised if you meet with stiff opposition.
Then you tell us that if the Shriners hospital were the only place to get help for your sick child that you would not be supporting the Shriners or Masonry if you took your child there to get help. No one believes that you would be supporting the Mansons by getting help for your child at the Shriners hospital. But what if you had a choice between going to a Christian hospital that had the better facilities and could provide a lasting cure but you preferred the Masonic hospital because the Christian hospital was small and unpopular?
The Church of our Lord has been, from its very beginning, in the business of reconciling men to God through our Lord Jesus Christ by teaching of the truth of Gods word. So in the case of sinful husbands and fathers there is another hospital to treat this disease. Gods hospital has the lasting cure. But you and countless others prefer to go to the hospital built by men and seek a cure that will not last. It is like so many other fads and "movements" in our history. It will fade away and in a few years many of those who have taken this cure will be sick again. When all of the publicity, excitement, and enthusiasm has gone away and they are down to the brass tacks business of truly keeping the wonderful promises they have made in such excitement and the world has a new fad to offer they will fail. Unless they turn to Christ through His word they will return to being the same self-centered fathers and husbands that they were in the beginning. But the word of God will not fade and the cure of the "Great Physician" will last forever. That a Christian would prefer mans way over Gods is beyond good reason.
Lets try another illustration. Suppose that there is only one hospital in town that has nothing more than a temporary solution for certain diseases. Your daughter is sick with one of these diseases and you have found the cure. In fact, you have found the only cure and you are the only doctor in town. You would have no need of that hospital. But that hospital and all that were in it would need your help. Would you then go to the hospital and bring your daughter for them to give their temporary solution and say nothing of the cure that you have found? Or would you not go to the hospital and use their facilities to cure your daughter and all of the other children in the city?
Well, It is clear that the gospel of Christ, which is the means that God has prescribed to save us (1 Cor. 1; 18), is the only cure for the broken families who are going to the PKs for help. You have the gospel that is designed by God to save them. But you go to receive their temporary solution yourself and you know the cure but you withhold it from them. Is this because you have lost faith in the cure of the gospel and the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ? Has it never entered your mind that Christ, as the head of the Church is himself also a member of it and that when you condemn the church you dishonor its head? I do not believe that you can prove that the church has failed these fathers and husbands. I can show that most of them never sought the cure until it became exciting and popular to seek it.
The word of God has been here for a long time and in it the answer to keeping promises and being good fathers and husbands could always be found. Any person seeking to be a better father and husband can go to the word of God and in the very privacy of his home find all that pertains to being a better husband and father therein. To suggest that they could not find this solution in any place other than the PK meetings is surely absurd, especially when such a suggestion comes from the pen of a Christian! The word of God says, seeing that His divine power hath granted unto us ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN UNTO LIFE AND GODLINESS, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us BY HIS OWN glory and virtue; whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great PROMISES; that THROUGH THESE ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having ESCAPED THE CRROUPTION THAT IS IN THE WORLD through lust. 2 Peter 1:3,4. We have in the word of God ALL that pertains to life and godliness. This includes all that pertains to being better husbands and fathers. The implication that one cannot be a better husband an father without going to some emotionally charged meeting of people calling themselves promise keepers is not one to which a Christian can subscribe. To God, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through His word we must go or we will not be better fathers. No one can be a good father if he has not provided for the spiritual needs of his family. This can only be found in Gods word. There is no where else that we can go. Inasmuch as the PKs are teaching a faith only gospel they are preventing these fathers from coming into Christ and being a part of His body the church wherein all spiritual blessing needed to solve these problems can be found.
Satan is always trying to get us to accept a substitute but we must resist him. There is no doubt, from your words, that many, like you, are seeking PK as a substitute for the Kingdom of God, which is the Church of Christ. It seems from your words, that because you think that the Church has failed a substitute for the gospel and the family of God must be found. Beware, brother, this type of thinking does not originate from faith in God.
I pray for you brother, that your faith in Gods divine plan for salvation and sanctification will increase so that you can see that it is ALL Sufficient for the purpose for which God ordained it. Husbands and fathers need only to come to Christ and live faithful to Him and His word in order to be the husbands and fathers that God intended them to be. If you had problems in this matter, it was not because the church failed you. Nor was it because the word of God failed you, but rather it was because you failed to heed the truth that was being taught by the Church, the pillar and ground of the truth, which came from the word of God. Enough of this shifting of responsibility for your not being the kind of father and husband that you should have been because the church failed. This is definitely NOT TRUE. The word of God was there. It was being taught. If you sought to do right you did not need a Bible college to teach you. You could have read it and understood it yourself. So the Bible College did not fail. This shifting of responsibility is typical of this generation and must stop if ever they are to become anything worthwhile, not to mention being faithful Christians. Christians accept responsibility for their sins, turn away from them, and humbly go to God through Christ for forgiveness. Any shifting of responsibility nullifies the process that God has intended to redeem and sanctify us. This effort to place blame on the failings of the church as a justification for turning to the sectarians who have never obeyed the gospel and have not the Spirit of Christ is pathetic indeed.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999
Mr. Saffold,I have absolutely no desire to continue in the round of what seems to be for me the development of an apologetic for Promise Keepers. October 15-16 here in Des Moines are eagerly being anticipated by myself and many others in and out of the Restoration Movement. Your contentions, I can say quite clearly, will not change my views because I have talked this issue over until I and the others I have talked with were blue in the face. Where exactly does one equate the hermeneutic that "presence dictates admonition of Calvinism?" Is this applied to the hymns we sing? Or how about the books in my library? Does reading a book written by a Baptist on eternal security mean I have adopted Calvinism? I would hope not, being that the book is called "Life in the Son" by Shank and happens to be one of the best works at refuting the doctrine of eternal security. But included in these pages are Shanks view of the absolute false doctrine of making baptism essential for salvation. Should I not read this book because it includes false doctrine? Or should I use something that some of us have the ability to possess - discernment? If you are of such a weak nature an can not discern the truth from Calvinism then you probably should not attend. But I am not too greatly concerned about becoming a Calvinist any time soon.
I have many Calvinist friends that I talk with, pray with, and even call "Brother" (GASP!) Even though in the restoration movement's absolute supreme sovereign attitude, believe it or not, the use of the term "brother" does not hermeneutically dictate that the one using the term has become a Calvinist.
Promise Keepers has indeed given me something my upbringing in the "only church" never gave me. They taught me about what it means to be a godly father and husband. The problem with your idea is that one error means that all is in err. That way of thinking is in err.
In the realm of fairness, I will stay around and respond a little while longer, but being truthful about this, we both know that neither of us are going to change the other's way of thinking. You have an idea as to what I will let occur at Promise Keepers and I know what will occur at Promise Keepers and the two are not lined up. In the meantime, my wife is surely glad I have attended and am going soon. And I am glad she went to Heritage Keepers.
All analogies aside (hospitals, books, etc...), the reality is Promise Keepers has changed men for God and they don't teach the whole truth. The real question is this then, "Can God use whatever purpose to accomplish His will, even those who do not teach the whole truth?" I say yes. I also think the Bible is full of examples of this. But my views of God's working in today's world don't quite fit the deism of most traditional restoration movement thought.
-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999
One more thing...your statments as to my "shifting" of responsibility when it comes to my being a good father. I certainly am not a perfect father, but would not have resolved my self to failure just yet. I think that the indication that I imply the church failed is wrong, I said that the restoration movement did not teach on these things. You are the one who equates this movement with being the church. I think that the church is a little larger in scope than our movement. What I did or did not hear is not the failing of the church, it is the arrogance of men who thought converting a charismatic was more important than dealing with the child molester in his own midst. You see, you said Satan is involved in this issue. I 100% agree. Satan has so skewered our thinking that we know all about God but don't know Him. The need for "shifting" must occur. We need to shift our focus from thinking that the only Christian drives into a restoration movement church parking lot every Sunday morning. We need to shift our arrogance and understand that God's rear-end is big enough for His throne and we should leave eternal assessments to Him - He is a little more qualified.You also somthing to the effect of PK being an emotional men's gathering. So what? Believe it or not, some people get tired of the Campbellistic approach which systematically divorces mind from heart. God gave us both.
I feel I have rambled, but the length of your last post more than indicated that in your response to me. Take Care.
-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999
Wow! This is long loooooong thread. And I think more than one person has stated that minds might not be changed by all this chat. Most likely that is so. Michael ... from your last post:"You also somthing to the effect of PK being an emotional men's gathering. So what? Believe it or not, some people get tired of the Campbellistic approach which systematically divorces mind from heart. God gave us both." (Duane ... this might be an interesting thread to begin).
It is true that in many of our congregations the thought of emotionalism = some loss of biblical forthrightness (proper word?). I do believe that at the two PK sessions I have attended (large one in Atlanta and the bigee in Wash DC), there was a decent blend of both the emotional and the logical ... both the heart and the head if you will. I do not know if this is true of all sessions.
Yet for many of our brothers (and some of our sisters) in our "non- denomination" any emotion is wrong. Certainly we need to keep our head about us in the pulpit ... we've all heard wishy-washy tear- jerking sermons that don't amount to a hill of beans. Then again, I have heard my share of very logical, biblical, sermons or lessons that made no attempt to reach people where they were. Truth be told, I'm certain I have done just that "a time or two."
Our teaching and preaching must include the proper blend of emotion and logic. One of my favorite professors at F.C.C., Dr. Roger Chambers, noted that he always wanted the proper mixture of the two in services, preaching, teaching, and a Christian's walk with the Lord. If you knew Brother Chambers in the classroom, you know he was a no nonsence, logical, forthright professor. Yet in a couple of private conversations I had with him my senior year, it was very obvious that he had an emotional side ... even if it didn't always show forth in the classroom.
Okay ... maybe my chat runs away from the PK thing and more into a discussion on style, or feelings, or ??? And maybe this should be a different thread (again Duane, I'll leave that up to you). I do pray that my worship and Christian walk includes a proper mix of both biblical emotion and biblical logic, and I'm sure that most of you would agree. One more thing ... always remember that the proper mix for Darrell Combs won't be the proper mix for Duane Schwingel, and his mix won't be the same as it is for Danny Gabbard, or whomever. Have a great day in the Lord, brothers and sisters! Darrell Combs
-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999
Brother Demastus:I appreciate your response to my post and your desire to attend the promise keepers meeting. I think if you will read all that I have said about this subject on this thread you will see that I have not encouraged anyone to not attend the PK meetings but I have said that if they do, as Christians they should preach the gospel to them. This is in harmony with the command of Christ in Mark 16:16. It surely would be a great place to preach the truth of God about faith in Christ, repentance of sins and obedience to the gospel. Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, and Romans 5:1. The issue is that many are claiming that the Promise keepers are Christians but the majority of those who attend have never been obedient to the gospel of Christ and are therefore not Christians.
Now to respond to the things you have said. First you tell us that you have no desire to continue in the round and that my contentions will not change your views.
Here is what you said, I have absolutely no desire to continue in the round of what seems to be for me the development of an apologetic for Promise Keepers. October 15-16 here in Des Moines are eagerly being anticipated by myself and many others in and out of the Restoration Movement. Your contentions, I can say quite clearly, will not change my views because I have talked this issue over until I and the others I have talked with were blue in the face.
Now I would not want you to turn blue in the face again and I do regret that my ability to persuade is so poor that I cannot convince you that preaching the gospel to PKs while you are there would be the Christian thing to do. I care little about any movement, restoration or otherwise. I care about the body of Christ, which is indeed larger than any of us can imagine but it is no larger than the number of those who have been born of water and the Spirit John 3:3-5. Paul by inspiration made it clear; for you are all Children of God by faith in Christ Jesus; for( GAR meaning because) as many of you as have been immersed into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:26, 27. How many are in Christ? As many! How many is that, Paul, As many as have been immersed into Christ. That is how large the Church of Christ is in this world. Not one bit larger and not one bit smaller. I am certain that the number far exceeds those who have ever heard of this restoration movement. But it does not include anyone who has not been obedient to the blessed gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then you ask a question: Where exactly does one equate the hermeneutic that "presence dictates admonition of Calvinism?" I have no idea. I have not said any such thing. Nor do I believe that because one is in the presence of a Calvinist he thereby becomes one. I have no fear of you becoming anything,least of all, a calvinist at a PK meeting. I am saying that when you attend such meetings, as a Christian commissioned by Christ to preach the gospel that you capitalize on the opportunity to preach the gospel to those among the PKs who have never obeyed the gospel. Now what could be wrong with that? If you say that it is wrong because they are already Christians then you have hit upon the real issue. If they have not heard, believed and obeyed the gospel they are not Christians and are therefore yet in their sins and will be lost because of it. 2 Thess. 1:7-10.
Then you further ask:
Is this applied to the hymns we sing? Or how about the books in my library? Does reading a book written by a Baptist on eternal security mean I have adopted Calvinism? Once again you fail to comprehend that there is a difference between urging you not to support promise keepers and telling you to not associate with them. I am saying, if you attend, teach them the truth. It is a great opportunity to do so. However, you seem to be attending to be taught with no intention of helping them to learn the gospel of Christ. It is good that you may learn something from them but it is wrong for you to not teach them the gospel of Christ that they so desperately need to hear so that they can repent and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of Sins. Acts 2:38. Mark 16:16.
If you are of such a weak nature an can not discern the truth from Calvinism then you probably should not attend.
If I ever have the opportunity to attend I will not be of the weak character that you display in being afraid to teach the gospel of Christ. If you were to really teach them the truth you would find that the experience would not be so pleasant. So long as you agree with them you will get along fine. This is the very weakness that you imagine that I have. I believe anyone reading my post can tell that I have no such weakness. I can discern the truth from Calvinism. I do not know why you keep referring to Calvinism. I have had nothing to say about Calvinism to you or anyone else in this forum. So where do you get this that I am so weak that I cannot discern the truth from Calvinism? Not only can I discern the truth from Calvinism but also I am prepared to confront that false doctrine whereever I meet it. But if you go to promise keepers meetings and find Calvinism there what will you do? Will you confront that false doctrine or will you just say, oh this is not the right time and place to confront it and just let it run it's course into the hearts and minds of precious souls who have no idea that it is a lie?"
Then you try to shock me with these words:
I have many Calvinist friends that I talk with, pray with, and even call "Brother" (GASP!) Even though in the restoration movement's absolute supreme sovereign attitude, believe it or not, the use of the term "brother" does not hermeneutically dictate that the one using the term has become a Calvinist.
What is so shocking about calling another human being brother regardless of what he believes? Are we not all descendents of Adam? If you mean that those who are not in Christ can be our brothers in Christ you are clearly confused. There are some brethren who have been lead into the errors of Calvinism since their obedience to Christ and it surely is proper to refer to them as brothers. So I do not know why you expected such a shocking (GASP). In either case it was not something I have not heard before.
Then you malign the Body of Christ again with these words:
Promise Keepers has indeed given me something my upbringing in the "only church" never gave me. They taught me about what it means to be a godly father and husband. The problem with your idea is that one error means that all is in err. That way of thinking is in err.
The only Church that I know anything about is the one described in the scriptures. It is the Church built by Christ and belongs to Him. Christ said to Peter, upon this rock I will build MY church Matthew 16:16. This is the very body of Christ according to Ephesians 1:22, 23, and hath put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all. Then Paul further instructs us that Christ is the head of this church, and He is the head of the body, the Church. Col. 1:18. Then Paul makes it clear that this body is the church. For His bodys sake which is the church. Col. 1:24. Then scripture further tells us that there is only one body, there is one body and one spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. Eph. 4:4. Are you saying that this is the one church" that let you down and never gave you what promise keepers provides. Remember that Christ is the head of this church. Did he neglect you? This is just another example of you shifting responsibility. You say that this one church of which Christ is the head never gave you what you needed. Brother I will again quote Peter, seeing that His divine power hath granted unto us ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN UNTO LIFE AND GODLINESS, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us BY HIS OWN glory and virtue; whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great PROMISES; that THROUGH THESE ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having ESCAPED THE CRROUPTION THAT IS IN THE WORLD through lust. 2 Peter 1:3,4.
Now all that pertained to life and godliness was provided for you. If you did not take advantage of it you are responsible not the church nor Christ who is the head of it.
Then you want to discuss emotions:
You also somthing to the effect of PK being an emotional men's gathering. So what? Believe it or not, some people get tired of the Campbellistic approach, which systematically divorces mind from heart. God gave us both.
There is a difference between genuine emotions arising from a heart, which is the mind in the scriptures, because of the truth and emotionalism. Emotionalism is the artificial means of stirring peoples emotions just to move them without any truth being behind such. Setting the mood if you will, to get people to have emotions that they have no logical basis for having. That is what I am talking about. Trying to stir sincere emotions among those devoid of love enough love for Christ to obey Him in all things is like priming the pump on a dry well. The place gets wet but there is not enough water to sustain life. Emotions for those who are Christians come naturally and do not need to be stirred and prodded. It is like priming the pump on a well already gushing forth enough water to sustain an entire settlement. Such would be ridiculous. You say that campbellistic approach divorces the mind from the heart. I care nothing about the campbellistic" approach. I am interested in the Christian approach. It is impossible for anyone, campbellite or Christian to divorce the mind from the heart because according to the scriptures they are identical. They are the same. We are therefore told to guard you heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues of life. Lest happily they should perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears and UNDERSTAND with their heart, and should turn again and I should heal them. Matthew 13:15. With the heart man believeth unto righteousness Rom. 10:10. But Mary kept these things pondering them in her heart Luke 2:19. Thus you can see that the heart and the mind are the same thing. So it is impossible for anyone to divorce them. So you are not correct in saying God gave us both. He gave us a mind that does both in their proper order. But when we have been lied to our heart or mind can and does often mislead us.
I do pray for you Brother that while you are attending that promise Keepers" meeting that you will be obedient to the Lord and teach the blessed gospel of Christ our Lord to them. If you do not do this then you are bidding these false teachers Godspeed and you will be a partaker in their evil deeds. 2 John 9-11.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999
Dear Prayerful Brother Saffold,Thank you for your seemingly quite sincere concern to be in prayer for me. After reconsideration, I see that my best options for the upcoming PK event is to take a gun, somehow jump the stage and begin to impart all my wisdom to 12,000 men who I hope stay in their seats. However, if I happen to fail in my endeavor to fulfill the Scriptural mandate of the proper way to attend a PK event as manifested in your words, please forgive me.
All jest aside, I will attend this event just as I have all the other I have attended. And I can already forecast that I will learn things that I did not know - even from those who err doctrinally. But I covet your prayers nonetheless. Thanks but your sanctimonious arguments have fallen on deaf ears.
Still can't wait for the event and all this hype over it just makes me anticipate it all the more.
-- Anonymous, October 02, 1999
Mr. Stafford,I sit and read your post, and I am in amazement. Yes, this room is filled with mud slinging when "men of God" tell each other that they are lesser of a Christian when they support the work of the Promise Keeper organization. It is easy for you to sit and judge me or even criticize me over matters you seem to know nothing about. Why not politely talk as two educated men. Many of your posts along with others are in the category of mud slinging. One post said that they will keep on going to Promise Keepers- and that is how I will feel- regardless of what you may say! I know I am Biblical in what I teach and Preach... you have NO right to say otherwise- just because I go or even promote Promise Keepers. If you have proof that I am a lesser of a Christian then give it. But, you cannot. I have never, never- I say again never called anyone unChristian because I beleive differently than they do. For example my post on the use of a piano in worship or lack of by the Church of Christ- never once did I say they were not Christians- maybe Christians in error- but never nonChristians. I have no right nor do you to judge- let God's word do that. Furthermore, when you quote me- you miss apply what I say from my post in other forums. Please do not do it again.
Mr.Stafford I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will mightily rest upon you- even if you criticize me for saying that.
-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999
I have not been keeping up with this thread... Please tell me where someone said that "a Promise Keeper supporter is less than a Christian" If it is true, shame on them. If it is not true, then your argument is weakened.In defense of your position, however, let me say this:
I attend a high school football game, sitting beside people who I differ with politically... but together we cheer the home team. As a Republican, I risk having GOP party nay-sayers who saw me at the game "associating" with Democrats (fellow Americans in error) and cooperating with them in cheers and jeers. Not only might we disagree about politics, we may even disagree about the game, the plays, and the referees' calls. Viva la difference!
If I attend a Promise Keepers Rally, I find the same principles apply, although I concede that the issues are greater and the stakes are higher.
I admit that I have both enjoyed the religio-macho camaradarie at local PK meetings and felt angst when the "message de jour" was less than God's plan of salvation. I can empathize with Paul's Romans 7 dilemma and rejoice in his conclusion that "there is therefore no condemnation..."
This is what Christian liberty is all about. This is the freedom we have in Christ. I must beware lest this liberty is misused, I know-- and there will be times when my Christian witness will be greater by my not attending. There will also be circumstances when attending will accomplish God's will.
I have been challenged by the comments I have read in this thread, (on both sides) and yes, even had my mind changed.
This is Christian discussion and debate at its best.
-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999
DuaneNow I know that I would (from what I understand - this being a man thing) not be invited to a meeting but I have to ask anyway. If I had attended that "game" several years ago (not understanding scriptural salvation) and any of you gentlemen had sat next to me...praised the Lord in song, prayed, and worshiped with me...would you have taken the time to teach me the truth, or would you have left me sitting ignorantly in my sins?
-- Anonymous, October 03, 1999
Brother Demastus: I am responding to your post, which was in response to my previous post concerning the promise keepers. I quote your words first as follows:Dear Prayerful Brother Saffold, Thank you for your seemingly quite sincere concern to be in prayer for me. After reconsideration, I see that my best options for the upcoming PK event is to take a gun, somehow jump the stage and begin to impart all my wisdom to 12,000 men who I hope stay in their seats. However, if I happen to fail in my endeavor to fulfill the Scriptural mandate of the proper way to attend a PK event as manifested in your words, please forgive me. All jest aside, I will attend this event just as I have all the other I have attended. And I can already forecast that I will learn things that I did not know - even from those who err doctrinally. But I covet your prayers nonetheless. Thanks but your sanctimonious arguments have fallen on deaf ears. Still can't wait for the event and all this hype over it just makes me anticipate it all the more.
-- Michael W. Demastus (demastus@netzero.net), October 02, 1999.
I can tell that you were joking about taking a gun with you to the PK meeting but I cannot know the purpose behind such jesting. It seems that you mean to convey to us that you would need to take a gun, somehow jump the stage in order to have the opportunity to speak to the people at the PK meeting. What does this tell us? Does it not make it clear that you are welcome at the PK meetings so long as you sit there in the audience and keep your mouth shut? If you want to correct any erroneous or false teaching that they may be imparting you will have to take a gun and force them to hear you? Does this mean that it is impossible for you to preach the blessed gospel of our Lord to them? You can fellowship them in their false teaching but they will not fellowship you if you preach the pure gospel of Christ? I am sure that you could try to preach the truth to those that you meet while you are there even though you may not be allowed to jump the stage. But if they learn that you are teaching the gospel of Christ and calling upon the men there to repent and be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ you may be told not to do it. If many of them want to hear the truth you may find that you will meet with much resistance. But you still plan to attend knowing full well that you cannot teach them the truth. And that you must silently listen, with your lips sealed, to the false teaching of the faith only doctrine that will not bring these men into Christ and they will leave the PK meeting just as lost as they were when they arrived. You will have given Godspeed to these false teachers and ignored the teaching of our Brother, the apostle John, in 2 John 9-11. But this does not matter to you; you are going regardless what the word of God says. I have never said that a Christian cannot attend but I have shown from the word of God that Christians are commanded to preach the gospel of Christ wherever they go. Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19,20. But, according to your words, you have no intent to teach them the gospel of Christ that they might be saved from their sins. (1 Cor. 15:1-4) And you intend to leave them in their lost state (2 Thess. 1:9-11) knowing that they need the forgiveness that comes from the blood of Christ in obedience to the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4, 2 Thess. 1:9-11, Romans 6:3-6). Yet you consider this silence and unwillingness to teach the gospel of Christ to those whom you know cannot be saved without it to be acceptable to the Lord? Jesus verily said, why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46.
Then you leave this jest aside and tell us that our arguments have fallen on deaf ears. All jest aside, I will attend this event just as I have all the other I have attended. And I can already forecast that I will learn things that I did not know - even from those who err doctrinally. But I covet your prayers nonetheless. Thanks but your sanctimonious arguments have fallen on deaf ears.
You forecast that you will learn things you did not know from those who are in error. This we do not doubt, but we can doubt that what you learn will be the truth since the truth is not their favorite subject and one would have to take a gun and jump the stage to tell it to them. We can also forecast that they will not learn the truth from you because you think that the only way you can teach it to them is to take a gun and jump the stage. We surely did not intend that our arguments should be sanctimonious and you have not proven that they were such. They are not sanctimonious just because they differ from and contradict your arguments. They are, however, scriptural and therefore correct. But this correctness does not affect you in the least. If you consider then unscriptural then why not answer them and correct our error instead of just referring to them as sanctimonious. I am truly sorry to hear about your deafness. Are you naturally deaf or have you merely covered your ears in absolute refusal to consider the scriptural arguments (2 John 9-11) against fellowshipping the false teachers among the PKs? Paul told Timothy to preach the word and he gave the reason, for the time will come when they will not ENDURE sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lust; and will TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and turn aside unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3. Your ears, though deaf, are itching in anticipation of this event where they will suddenly be cured, clear and open to hear the false doctrine of faith only which you have no intentions to oppose. You are eager to turn aside to the PK fables and allow the lost to continue to hear these fables and follow them. You have demonstrated that you are absolutely unconcerned for their eternal salvation. This is indeed sad.
Jesus also found people who had ears but would not hear. For this peoples heart is wax gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest happily they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should turn again, and I should heal them. Matthew 13:15.
Though you seem to be bothered by the fact that I pray for you, I do continue to pray sincerely for you, brother. I pray that you will be obedient to our Lords command to preach the gospel to the lost in any place that you find them. It is scriptural and right to pray for all men. (1 Tim. 2:1). Paul also tells us that such is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior; who would have all men to be saved and come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. (2 Tim. 2:3,4). SO I pray for you because you do not seem to care that All men should come to the knowledge of the truth. I pray that you will teach the truth to those attending the PK meeting that you will attend. I do pray fervently and sincerely for you, brother.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, October 04, 1999
Brother Kelly:I will quote your words in response to my post that was a response to yours concerning what you termed MUD SLINGING in this room. I quote your response in full as follows:
Mr. Stafford, I sit and read your post, and I am in amazement. Yes, this room is filled with mud slinging when "men of God" tell each other that they are lesser of a Christian when they support the work of the Promise Keeper organization. It is easy for you to sit and judge me or even criticize me over matters you seem to know nothing about. Why not politely talk as two educated men. Many of your posts along with others are in the category of mud slinging. One post said that they will keep on going to Promise Keepers- and that is how I will feel- regardless of what you may say! I know I am Biblical in what I teach and Preach... you have NO right to say otherwise- just because I go or even promote Promise Keepers. If you have proof that I am a lesser of a Christian then give it. But, you cannot. I have never; never- I say again never called anyone unchristian because I believe differently than they do. For example my post on the use of a piano in worship or lack of by the Church of Christ- never once did I say they were not Christians- maybe Christians in error- but never nonChristians. I have no right nor do you to judge- let God's word do that. Furthermore, when you quote me- you miss apply what I say from my post in other forums. Please do not do it again. Mr.Stafford I will pray for you that the Holy Spirit will mightily rest upon you- even if you criticize me for saying that.
-- AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), October 03, 1999.
You begin by telling us that you are amazed upon reading my post. I sit and read your post, and I am in amazement. I cannot see anything about this post that would amaze anyone. You did not tell us exactly what was so amazing. So we can only wonder just what it is you are talking about. Then you once again complain that this room is filled with mud slinging. And I quote from you again the following; Yes, this room is filled with mud slinging when "men of God" tell each other that they are lesser of a Christian when they support the work of the Promise Keeper organization. Without offering to clean up the mess you made when you came into this room slinging this mud: To say that to go to PK events means that you compromise then- you all are full of it!
We asked you just what you meant by, what appears to have been an example of fowl language but you did not answer. What did you mean when you said that we are full of it? Is there no need for you to apologize for slinging this mud at your brethren?
And this: PS. TO ALL DR CHAMBERS FANS: I am an alumnus of FCC and DR. Chambers may have been a great teacher... but he is not God-- perhaps that is why I transferred to JBC. -- Anthony D. Kelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), September 08, 1999.
Here you were slinging mud at the brethren who went to the same college that you attended and accused them, without proof, of thinking of Brother Chambers as God. Is this an example of the Christian kindness that you are advocating that we should display?
And this: The accapella brethren plead for a "blue print" mentality of interpretation, where if it is not in scripture then leave it out. In my humble opinion that train of thought is silly!
He you sling mud at those of us who do not use instruments in worship by claiming, again without proof, that we are silly and you claim that we have a blue print mentality. According to this it is not our incorrect arguments that is the problem but our mentality. The one thing you cannot judge correctly is someones mentality. Yet even this you do not prove but merely assert it in a fashion that resembles the type of misinformation tactic used by those who are involved in mud slinging campaigns.
But for all of this you offer no apology. You simply come back and accuse your brethren of mud slinging without offering a single specific instance where anyone was guilty of such. I have accused you of slinging mud in the above quoted SPECIFIC EXAMPLES and you conveniently ignored that accusation. Now it seems reasonable that you should defend these words that I have claimed were mud slinging or apologize for them. But to ignore them and then accuse the rest of us without giving any specific examples shows the complete weakness of your contention concerning the cleanliness of this room. If it is dirty at all you, brother, have at least contributed to its condition. Why not clean up your mess. Show specific examples of where I have made a similar mess of things and I will gladly offer my apologies without any hesitation whatsoever.
Then you say:
It is easy for you to sit and judge me or even criticize me over matters you seem to know nothing about. I have no idea what you are talking about with this sentence. I have only criticized your mud slinging and I have offered specific examples by quoting your words, which I can and do know about. I know what you have said and I accused you of mud slinging and you have not answered that accusation. That is all I talked about in reference to judging your words. This we are commanded by the word of God to do. Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. By their fruits ye shall know them. Any Christian must inspect the fruit on the tree that you planted in this room, brother, before they partake of it. I have inspected that fruit and have found by testing it with the word of God to be bad fruit and I therefore cannot swallow it.
Why not politely talk as two educated men. I ask you that question earlier. Is it polite to say that your brethren who do not support promise keepers because they consider it compromising are, as you said, full of it? Is it polite to say that your brethren who respect brother Chambers are idolizing him without offering proof that such is the case? Is it polite to accuse your Brethren who do not use instruments of music in the worship of God of having a mentality that is silly?
Then you claim that many of my post are mud slinging with these words:
Many of your posts along with others are in the category of mud slinging.
Now you do not specify which ones nor do you quote anything that I said that could be considered mud slinging. We are just supposed to take your word for it. Well brother, I do not take your word for it. If you show me specific examples of where I slung any mud toward my Brothers in Christ I will immediately repent, apologize, and asked my Lord Jesus Christ to forgive me and help me to never make that error again. For I sincerely do not intend to do any such thing. But you must specify the words used and prove that they were in the category of mud slinging. You did not have anything specific in mind, did you? You just want this thing to go away, dont you?
Then you remind me that I have not been very persuasive with these words:
One post said that they will keep on going to Promise Keepers- and that is how I will feel- regardless of what you may say!
I admit that I am failing to persuade you. I agree that I do not have great powers and ability to convince you and others of the truth. But I am doing the best that I can with what little I have in the way of talents to persuade you and all others to follow the admonition of the apostle John to not partake in the evil deeds of false teachers by bidding them Godspeed. 2 John 9-11. Neither do I expect you or anyone else to follow what I say. I am pleading with you to follow the word of God that tells you to preach the gospel of Christ to those at the PK meetings. Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 16:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-4; 2 Thess. 1:7-11; Rom. 6:3-6; Acts 2:38,39; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26,27. These are the words that I ask you to follow. If it were only my opinion that were at issue there would be no issue. Then you advise me of my rights with these words: I know I am Biblical in what I teach and Preach... you have NO right to say otherwise- just because I go or even promote Promise Keepers. If you agree with and promote the doctrine of faith only as taught by the promise keepers and you keep the true gospel of Christ from them then you will not be biblical in what you preach and teach. Not only do I have the right to say so I have the responsibility to say so. Jude said for us to, contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints Jude 3. I am doing just that. I am contending for the faith which is not a faith only doctrine of salvation apart from obedience to the word of God. If you go to the Pk meetings you have a similar responsibility to contend earnestly for that same faith that was delivered to the saints. I have the right and the responsibility to say so and I will say so as often as I have the opportunity to confront those who promote this false doctrine. Then you offer another false accusation, without proof with these words: If you have proof that I am a lesser of a Christian then give it. I have given proof that your language is at least unchristian. I have shown that you support the teaching of false doctrine and that you have been guilty of slinging mud at your fellow Christians. I have proven that for sure. But I have not said, nor do I think, that you are a lesser Christian than the rest of us. We may be guilty of other sins just as bad as the ones you are guilty of with your language and your support of false doctrine. If you see those sins in me or any of the rest of us I would hope that you would care enough to correct us, reprove us, rebuke us, or whatever it takes to persuade us to repent. This is all I have tried to do in your case, Brother Kelly. But I have not ever said in any place that you are lesser that the rest of us in anything, least of all a Christian.
Then you cry that you are not guilty of calling anyone unchristian:
I have never; never- I say again never called anyone unchristian because I believe differently than they do. For example my post on the use of a piano in worship or lack of by the Church of Christ- never once did I say they were not Christians- maybe Christians in error- but never nonChristians.
No one has accused you of calling anyone unchristian so I cannot imagine where you gathered that idea. I did however accuse you of saying that your Brethren that think you are compromising by attending the PK meetings were full of it. I proved that with your own words. I did accuse you of saying that you Brethren who do not use instruments of music in the worship were silly. I proved it with your own words. I did say that you accused your Brethren that respect Brother Chambers for his works sake of thinking of him as God and that you did so accuse them without proof. I proved that also by quoting your own words. Then you judge us to be judges and say that we have no right to judge with these words:
I have no right nor do you to judge- let God's word do that. I have every right and so does every Christian to judge teachers by their fruits. For Christ himself warned us of false teachers and said, by their fruits ye shall know them. We are therefore authorized by the Lord to inspect the fruits of those who would teach us. You have set yourself up to teach us that it is good for us to compromise the truth by attending the PK meetings without teaching them the gospel of Christ. We have inspected your fruit and found it to be bad. We compared your teaching with the word of God and found that it was not in harmony with it. So you see we have let the word of God Judge your teaching. Then you complain that I have misapplied what you say from other post in the other forums. Furthermore, when you quote me- you miss apply what I say from my post in other forums. Please do not do it again. Now I would never want to miss apply anything that you have said whether it is from another post in a different forum or not. But here again you appear to be trying to leave the impression that I have actually done such a thing to you so that others may think that I mistreat you terribly, but you offer no specific instance of my having miss applied anything that you say. If you will but be specific and I see that I have done such I will apologize to you, repent and ask the Lord for mercy and attempt to never do it again. But without a specific instance I will have to say that I have not miss applied anything that you have said and therefore am likely to continue on the same path I have taken thus far unless you can show where I have wronged you. I pray fervently for you Brother Kelly. Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, October 04, 1999
Mr. Stafford,I would like to ask... where did I say that the brethern that oppose PK are "full of it"? I never once stated that. If you inferred it as you misapplied what I state then you need to recognize YOUR error. Or, if you stated that I indeed said that- which I did not then you sir are a liar!
As for Biblical and nonbiblical- my record stands before the Lord God Almighty. As for Promise Keepers... they do not teach faith only. If you can prove that to me then do so with real documentation. But, of course you cannot. Yes, I will agree many who do participate with PK my infact believe that and for that they are in error. But, also it can be said that You are guilty of teaching falsely- when you lump all people in the same category! I believe that there are many Godly biblical men who attend PK and they may be from our movement or not. Some may be Christians in error.
See, the whole issue boils down that I most likely offended you when I spoke of the lack of use of a piano as silly. If you are a Church of Christ a capella- then you need to realize that the blueprint mentality is a form of interpretation that is man made and could be labeled a false by many.
What I find in amazement is your slanderous nonbiblical statements that have nothing to do with what Promise Keepers teach. In fact they do teach baptism- this is one of the 7 promises (Matthew 28 the great commission). Yes, they often ask a person to accept the Lord Jesus in their heart - but so do I and then they must repent and be baptized as in Acts 2:38. If you do not then shame on you! Salvation is not only a matter of the head but of the heart. So many are converted- but never changed throught the power of Jesus! Perhaps that is why so many such as you are so judgmental and critical.
Mr. Stafford- I really feel sorry for you and I will pray for you. Yes- I will firmly stand by my statement of mud slinging. You and many others do sling mud- and perhaps I am guilty of it from time to time too. But, you are not always right... especially on this issue.
-- Anonymous, October 06, 1999
AKelley:You wrote:
I would like to ask... where did I say that the brethren that oppose PK are "full of it"?
Scroll up! On September 08, you wrote:
To say that to go to PK events means that you compromise then- you all are full of it!
-- Anonymous, October 06, 1999
I would like to apologize for the remark that I said "you all are full of it"- I am sorry. It does not sound like me. I do not know why I said it- I guess I was out of sorts that day... "Get behind me Satan!" Thus I repent. Also I want to ask forgivness for mud slinging in this room. I am guilty just as much as anyone else.I just wanted to state that I will no longer post anymore remarks in this room. Everyone seems to be far superior in their faith. I believe that it is ok to be a part of Promise Keepers- for many biblical reasons- which I will not go into.
I am a Christian Church Pastor but you can call me the right reverend. Many times I feel ashamed of our movement because we have left our first love. We have ceased to be the Church Christ prayed for us to be. And for that I weep. We shoot our wounded all for the sake of being right.
Our first priority as a Church is to love Christ and then man. Do we really do both. Christ commissioned us to evangelize and disciple the lost- the mission of the church- yet we much rather fight. So I will withdrawl so I can to what Christ wants me to do.
May the Holy Spirit mightily fill each of you.
-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999
Brother Kelly:I am responding to your next to last post in this forum. I will quote only a few things and respond. I do not have the time at this moment to respond to all that I object to but I will come back later to do so. First you ask where you said that the brethren that oppose PK are full of it and claimed that you did not say it and then accused me of being a liar because I brought it to your attention. I quote your words as I did before when I accused you of saying the words you claimed not to have said:
I would like to ask... where did I say that the brethern that oppose PK are "full of it"? I never once stated that. If you inferred it as you misapplied what I state then you need to recognize YOUR error. Or, if you stated that I indeed said that- which I did not then you sir are a liar!
Now I noticed that Brother Duane Schwingel refered you to the exact place where you had said such. And I quote his response to you as follows:
AKelley: You wrote: I would like to ask... where did I say that the brethren that oppose PK are "full of it"? Scroll up! On September 08, you wrote: To say that to go to PK events means that you compromise then- you all are full of it!
-- Duane Schwingel (duane@mytalk.com), October 06, 1999.
Then I noticed, with great admiration, your humble Christian spirit as you admit that you did in fact say such and you repented of it. I will now quote your words with the comment that they are a sterling representation of how a Christian should behave when he finds that he has done wrong.
I would like to apologize for the remark that I said "you all are full of it"- I am sorry. It does not sound like me. I do not know why I said it- I guess I was out of sorts that day... "Get behind me Satan!" Thus I repent. Also I want to ask forgivness for mud slinging in this room. I am guilty just as much as anyone else.
Brother, this is the best example I have seen in this forum of one following the teachings of our blessed Lord to confess our faults and repent of them. I pray for you and I thank God for your excellent example of the penitent spirit.
I am sure that you called me a liar concerning this because you did not remember saying those words and I am convinced that you are correct when you say that this kind of language is not like you. Sometimes we get frustrated during lengthy debate and say things that we do not intend to say and that we certainly do not mean. This is how I will view your calling me a liar concerning this matter.
I do not want to say more about your post at this time though I do object to more that you have said. The reason being that when a brother repents we should show love and compassion. This is not an appropriate time to debate with you.
I appreciate your example of humility and the display of the penitent heart and spirit. An example that all should follow. I surely will remember it for my entire life. I admire this spirit in you brother. I sincerely do.
My prayer for you this evening is that our gracious Lord will abide with you and grant that you will always follow him in the truth and give you that joy and peace that is past all understanding that only Christians can know.
Your Brother in Christ our Lord,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, October 07, 1999