does anyone have any expierience with rottweil brenneke slugs?

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they have really strange pronounced rifleing on the slugs,cheaper than dirt says they are very accurate,anyone have any info?anyone have good expierience ordering ammo through c.t.d.?I'm a bit leary....thanks..

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 22, 1999

Answers

zoobie,

No slug is truly accurate, at least not compared to a rifle bullet. I have shot s few of the Brenneke slugs and they did fairly well, but not any better than my home brewed .69 caliber round balls loaded with a WW Red AA wad in a 2 3/4" 12 guage shotshell. I don't recall the grains of powder (it's written down in my loading room), but it was HS6 delivering a muzzle velocity (chonographed) of just a little over 1500 fps. But that's another ball game.

I didn't keep a record of the 100 yd group it shot, but they stayed on the "paper" which was about 18" X 24" (man-sized silouette). Now admittedly, 100 yds is strectching the range a little, but that's the distance we were shooting that day. This was in a Model 1100 Remington with special slug barrel (with front and rear sights). I don't recall ever shooting the Remington or WW slugs with a comparison in mind. Shot some 00 Buck at 100 yds and was disappointed with their performance. The #4 Buck did better.

It's been quite a while now, so I won't remembering any more; it'll either give me a headache or put me to sleep!

Gerald

-- Gerald R. Cox (grcox@internetwork.net), August 22, 1999.


I've had and shot Rottweil Brenneke slugs for over fifteen years. I don't see any appreciable difference between them and Federal's rifled slugs, if that's the question you're asking. Just remember to uder them in a smooth bore shotgun, not one with a rifled barrel for sabot slugs. Can't help with the CTD issue, I've personally never dealt with them. Although I do know of a lot of folks who have dealt with CTD for ammo and such and they do speak highly of them.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), August 22, 1999.


Sorry, I don't know how I mis-spelled "use" into "uder". Some kind of doublewide "E" keystroke following a missed "S", I guess.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), August 22, 1999.


zoobie, I swear I thought you meant like garden slugs and I was wondering where the hell you are going where so many odd creatures abound!! I didn't know if you wanted to eat the slugs for dinner or avoid them cause they are poisonous.

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), August 23, 1999.

Mara, LOL,

I thought the same thing! We have bannana slugs here ( biggest I've seen was 10 inches long ) and I've heard you can eat them, but with the whole Pacific ocean to fish in, I think I'll pass.

I shoot 3" mag. rifled slugs out of a 18 1/4" 12 ga. A milk jug at 50 yds. isn't safe, good enough for elk and bear. We have small black tail here. A ruger 10/22 w/ scope shooting CCI stingers ( 1600 fps ) will drop them at 100 yds if you hit them behind the ear, between the eyes, or at the base of the skull, and you are not calling everybody in 5 miles to dinner, don't know how they would do with mule deer, but suspect about the same. FWIW

-- CT (ct@no.yr), August 23, 1999.



Fried slugs might not be so bad if you're hungry enough. Did you all see the guy who spent 40 days lost in the Great Desert in Australia? He was thin!!!!

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), August 23, 1999.

Zoob,

I didn't mention Brennekes in my recent 'treatise' on shotgun slugs by name. They are a refinement of the Foster type hollow base rifled slug in that they have the shell's wad screwed to the base of a solid lead slug to put weight in the front of the projectile while using the permanently attached wad to provide aerodynamic stability. In some barrels they may be more accurate than Foster type slugs, even though as has been mentioned accuracy with shotgun slugs in smoothbores may be a relative thing.

I suggest you try whatever is available *in your shotgun* and then buy whatever quantity you think suitable of what *actually works* for your particular barrel and needs. Every shotgun barrel is pretty much a law unto itself as to what it 'likes.' The only way to know for sure is to pattern-test various loads on paper. Advertisements and gunstore gossip won't do it- no matter how well a certain load works for someone else it can perform much differently even in an identical brand and model shotgun.

As a general rule the best accuracy for shotgun slugs these days seems to be provided by fully rifled barrels shooting sabot slugs. This seems to be followed by smoothbores with rifled choke tubes shooting sabot slugs. Sabot slugs are pretty expensive and a rifled barrel limits what a shotgun will do with other types of shotgun shells- it generally scatters shot loads widely, very quickly. Rifled choke tubes are generally not as bad about scattering patterns as fully rifled barrels.

A company called Patternmaster (www.patternmaster.com) is doing some nigh- unbelievable things with their proprietary design for shotgun choke tubes. I have now experimented with three of their tubes (in a Benelli M1 Super 90, a Remington 870 and a Remington 11-87), and given their 'preferred' loads THEY WORK as advertised. You can achieve useful 100 yard buckshot patterns with these tubes, sacrificing close-in 'scatter' in the process (though if you want you can use loads the tube throws open patterns with for close-in stuff). You WILL need sights to take full advantage of these tubes- a bead won't cut it. I frankly can't see much need to shoot slugs any more, though Foster-type slugs work OK through these tubes (NO sabots tho). My former dedicated slug gun (a Remington 11-87 Premier, 21" cantilever scope mount barrel with rifled RemChoke) is now on its way to becoming a long-range buckshot gun with a Patternmaster Superchoke tube substituting for the rifled tube and an Acog Reflex sight replacing the 1 1/2X Burris scoutscope.

A shotgun is the most versatile single firearm you can own. The fact that it can handle a wide variety of loads to meet different needs is what makes this versatility possible. It will require some forethought and some experimentation to determine what loads, barrels and choke combinations best meet your needs. A shotgun is the most effective defensive weapon you can own as well. It is not as handy as a sidearm but its power and ability to deliver multiple projectiles with a single discharge make it superior to any other weapon at usual engagement ranges, well under 100 yards in most cases. In open country it is best paired with a capable rifle.

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), August 24, 1999.


Zoob, 2 weeks ago you's was mos' certainly iggorant 'bout guns and stuff. This week on both this forum and the other one you seem to have got eddicated. Are you just a quick study or are you really hungering for coyote backstrap tacos with buzz-worm for the appetizer?

-- Roger (pecosrog@earthlink.net), August 24, 1999.

Lee,

Don't need no special sites or barrels. My old Moss can kill anything within 50 to 100yds, without fancy sites/scopes, don't have to have a bead or rear sight, don't have to have special loads. I'm not trying to get a 10, just a 8 will do.

My 12 isn't for hunting, it's home defence, but will kill large game, w/some practice.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), August 24, 1999.


CT,

Good for you and your Mossberg. I suggest you hang onto it- the average run of the production line won't come close to doing what yours will, especially given shorter barrels with open chokes (what barrel length/choke are you shooting, BTW?). As to the question regarding sights, my vision is let us say a handicap and I need all the help I can get. I'm glad you don't have that problem.

As I have said, every shotgun barrel is pretty much a law unto itself. If any of you tyros out there plan on busting caps on anything further away than 25- 30 yards with your personal smoothbore, you'd better know what it will do at longer ranges (MEASURED ranges, not guesstimates) with specific loads. The only way to find that out is to put patterns on paper. 50 to 100 yards is a loooooong way for a shotgun. Try it if you don't believe me, especially if you've never fired a shotgun at paper at that range before. It will be an educational experience, no matter what. And you may find out you're lucky and have a barrel that gives you exceptional performance right out of the box with no need for modifications.

This isn't advertisement and it isn't gunshop gossip. It's the best advice I can give you to keep you from unnecessarily wounding game or getting into serious trouble with what my military friends call pop- up shoot-back targets. You need to know what your individual shotgun can do with specific loads at various ranges if you're going to get the most out of it.

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), August 25, 1999.



Roger,well I did grow up small game hunting and spent four years as a grunt in the 25th infantry division.but I never had the oppurtunity to eat anything weird like rattlesnake or coyote,if that's what you mean.guns have always just been tools to me and not the fetishistic penis surrogates that they seem to be for so many.Since I no longer carry an issue s.a.w.,I figure I should avail myself to those with more knowledge.here I am.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 28, 1999.

Lee,

Good for you and your Mossberg. I suggest you hang onto it-( will :-) the average run of the production line won't come close to doing what yours will, especially given shorter barrels with open chokes (what barrel length/choke are you shooting, BTW?)>

Years ago I bought a Good used Mossberg full choke pump. I put a 3" mag in it and a tape measure down the barrel. I cut it off square at 18 and a 1/4 inches with a hack saw. ( 1/4 inch longer than min. )

Sorry to hear that. I've been shooting for almost 40 years and learned from my grandpapies. I have no sights on my moss, not even a bead. I practice with a bud that places milk jugs in different places while my back is turned ( limit 50 yds and 100 degrees, + or - 10 ft in height ) The idea is not to hide them but to challenge speed and on target, I do the same for him.

Zoobie posted a thing about hitting what you shoot at, good piece! It mentioned shooting with both eyes open, this is something every serious shooter should work for, especially scope shooters.

With scopes the biggest problem is finding the target fast. With both eyes open the cross hairs will be superimposed on your weak eye ( with practice ) and you will be looking at the unmagnified veiw. What that means is if you see something move, you don't have to guess where it is, you are allready looking at it and tracking.You Can see a different image out of each eye, with practice.

Works the same for hand guns, rifels, and crossbows.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), August 28, 1999.


that's so simple....that should not sound as innovative as it does.Great idea!Now to undo all those ingrained habits....

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 29, 1999.

CT,

It's called "point shooting" and I find it interesting that the concept has to be rediscovered every so often- in fact, it's undergoing yet another revival right now. It was first taught as a concept (as far as I know) by some of the old-timers who were called in to instruct OSS operatives in World War Two. The idea is based on the reflexive ability to point a finger (or a muzzle) at any object in view. Point shooting techniques are superior for engaging targets at close range.

In the Vietnam era the Army developed a program called 'quick kill' (later revised to the more politically correct 'quick skill') where recruits were trained to hit moving targets with Daisy BB guns which had the sights removed. This prepared them better for engaging fleeting targets in the jungle than did more traditional known- distance rifle range shooting, though the KD range is an essential first step in teaching a new shooter safety, how to run the gun, sight alignment and trigger control.

I generally prefer a shotgun as a 'long gun' whenever circumstances (usually dictated by range considerations) allow. I grew up wingshooting in the traditional Southern sense, which means pass shooting doves and hunting quail with bird dogs. Quail hunting over dogs is as good training as anyone is likely to ever get in safety considerations, self control and the mental and physical mechanics of hitting fleeting targets with a shotgun.

The problem is that very few people who are just getting started now will have a chance to spend 35 years in various shooting pursuits as I have done, and you may have done as well. They DEFINITELY won't be able to do that before rollover. There are a lot of people who are buying their first firearms now. In fact I saw an article in a trade publication a couple of months ago, which said that Mossberg had laid on another shift in order to increase production to meet new demand for their shotguns.

It is important, I think, for these new shooters to understand what their firearms can do, and to know how to employ them safely and effectively. That is my only point, and if it seems repeated unnecessarily I am sorry. I have seen the results of firearms accidents, and they are never pretty. I would hate to think that someone wound up facing the results of an accident with a firearm they bought to protect themselves and their family. That is why I keep stressing the need for training and practice, for learning what an individual firearm (of any type, be it handgun, rifle or shotgun) is capable of and how to use it safely and effectively.

What works for one person may not do well for another. Preferences and choices will differ from person to person. For instance, given a choice I would not carry a Mossberg 500 in 'heavy going' because it is too difficult to pull maintenance on its tubular magazine if you dunk it or have to deal with mud or grit (a problem addressed in the mil-spec 590, which has a removable magazine cap). My preference for a pump shotgun is overwhelmingly the Remington 870, which has been around longer than I have (it was introduced in 1950). Your mileage may vary, of course.

Likewise for various accoutrements and accessories. It is not possible to buy skill and experience packed in a box- no amount of stuff hung on a shotgun will help a shooter who lacks skill or practice. I believe in the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) principle also. But some things will make a good gun even more capable, and help a good shooter to perform better as well. My 870 has a magazine extension, an attached flashlight, rifle type sights, a SideSaddle and is fitted for RemChoke tubes. It is true that you could take a standard fowling piece, cut it down to 18- 20" and do much of the stuff mine will do. But it won't do EVERYTHING mine will, like head shots at 30 yards, with buckshot- that means with the whole pattern. The extra edge of performance is worth it to me. As I said, YMMV.

Be safe,

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), August 29, 1999.


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