When will government terrorists be stopped?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
"SWAT team members pointed guns at small children, including Heflin's 4-year-old granddaughter. Her mother said the little girl was chased down a hall with a red laser beam from an assault rifle positioned in the middle of her back....Samuel Heflin said that he repeatedly asked if the officers had a search warrant but was told to "shut . . . up.'' Undersheriff Harrington delivered the warrant to the home shortly after the search was completed, the judge said. Officers arrested Samuel Heflin, who had no criminal record."
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 22, 1999
-- Jack (email@example.com), August 22, 1999.
I don't watch much TV, but by happenstance I saw most of a "Walker, Texas Ranger" episode that ran last night. I was amazed, if this is at all typical, that John Q. Public watches a popular program where law enforcement officers just drive right up to the suspect's door, no warrant, threaten him, roughouse his gang, etc., etc. Of course, we know the guy is bad, we even saw him beat his kid, so of course we can't help but cheer on the "heroes".
Of course, when you are accused of a crime, you may feel a tad differently. Especially if you are innocent. It does happen.
-- Jack (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 22, 1999.
The linked article fails to mention if the SWAT team did recover any evidence and if Heflin was acually charged with a crime. It appears that excessive force was used. Why is the trial set for 7 months from now? Looks like a job for the Colorado Militia!
-- For (email@example.com), August 22, 1999.
Don't know if any of you read it -- it was quite some time ago -- but some bounty hunters bust into some folks' house and shot them, and it was the wrong address ...
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 22, 1999.
Why was the search warrent signed by a judge? Was Samuel arrested for a crime? Was Mr. Heflin involved in a criminal act? Was this an arrest warrent or a search warrent? No criminal record? How do you know this? You were told by whom? Go down to the records depart of your court house and get a copy of his criminal history. Pay a fee, it's public info.. I am one of these "govment terroists" as you call us. We will not kick a door down with out probable cause! I believe enough information about a crime was presented to a judge in order to sign one! Precautions are taken to ensure the civil rights of people. We do not want to loose our homes to a law abiding citizen or a P.O.S. that had their rights violated. As a cop, you rely on the system of search warrents to be correct before you kick in the door and search a home. you dont like cops or their work. You had better thank god for the type of work we do, our system of law and order. If it wasn't for the current system, you probably would have been long dead by now. Law's and the cops that ensure the compliance are the only reason any of us are living a some what safe life. If you do not enjoy cops kicking your doors down, dont break the law! The guns at ready, well if you have ever walked down a strang hallway, not knowing if the next door will have a 12 ga. waiting to cut you in half, you will never understand why the level of focus is on all that lives in that house!
-- G. O. Knads (swat@U.com), August 22, 1999.
The article said that he was suspected of being involved in a barroom brawl. A SWAT team? Um.. is this like hunting a mosquito with a bazooka? Pointing guns at four year old girls? Making the children lie face down on the ground? The search warrant was not delivered until "after" the search was finished. I suppose you thought there was probable cause for shooting the 14 year old unarmed fleeing son of the Weaver family in the back. Wake up Mr. "Knad", putting on a cop suit doesn't give you infallible judgement or behavior, or give you the right to trample on Constitutional rights.
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 22, 1999.
P.S. I think I can live just fine without your version of law and order. I bet some other law-abiding cops would agree.
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 22, 1999.
So, a Mr. G.O Knads thinks that the Gestapo is a good thing. After all, we all know what a good law-abiding society Nazi Germany was.
This country, vowing to fight Nazism and Communism, has turned around and become just like our enemies- something Sun Tzu warned about over 2,000 years ago.
Add to this the ongoing attempts to deprive us of our weapons, and the resulting picture is truly frightening.
Our Constitution gave us our freedom 200 years ago. The further we drift away from it in the name of "balancing" our rights (Janet Reno's phrase) the more we court disaster.
Constitutional rights are either inviolate or they are not. We decide, and we also suffer when we allow our own government to abuse them.
Lawsuit? Those so-called 'officers' belong in prison with the other thugs.
-- Forrest Covington (email@example.com), August 22, 1999.
Well G.O. Nads, I assume you're baiting us, but I'll bite anyway.
I have been stopped on motorcycles and bicycles and searched on three separate occasions. Once I was handcuffed and had to sit in the squad car for 30 minutes while the officer tried to pin something on me. He eventually had to let me go, but not until he'd delayed my for over an hour.
On all occasions, I had done nothing illegal; I was just minding my own business.
Three times I was ticketed for infractions that did not occur. One of those infractions was on a bicycle!! Once was failure to yield on a single-lane dirt road! The cop who issued that ticket did not even see the scene of the accident since we had all left three hours before!
When I went to court to fight the tickets, the cops didn't bother to show up. Rather than throw out the charges, as he is obligated to do, the judge rescheduled the date. Causing me to lose another day's pay. On the next date, the cop didn't show up again! I fought again. Because of the way the system was set up, I was given incredible pressure to plead guilty by other citizens in the court room. (Everybody had to arrive at the court room, and all cases were tried one after another. Any protests or fights caused EVERYBODY ELSE in the court room to have to wait longer before they could go back to work. Catcalls and yelling errupted from the other litigants. The judge didn't hammer his gavel when THEY yelled, but when *I* spoke, I was admonished to be quiet as I was disturbing hizzoner. I eventually plead no-contest. The judge tried to tell me that wasn't an option. I referred to the appropriate area of the code. The judge, who was then embarrassed, gave me the maximum possible fine for a crime that did not happen. The fine was $525.).
On one stop, the policeman insisted on searching my motorcycle bags. I refused. (This is 1987 before the Supreme Court abolished the 4th amendment). He handcuffed me; put me in the car; then searched my motorcycle bags - spewing my belongings along the side of the road in the rain. Nothing was found - again, the cop then joked about writing me a ticket for littering (I am not making this up). Drove off, spewing gravel and mud on me and my stuff. I protested, but nothing happened. After all, I was from Texas and this event took place in Illinois.
These are MY experiences, and I haven't ever done anything illegal. I have no record. And I'm not a Hells Angel Type - I rode a BMW at the time.
Aside from that, Mr. Nads, "Dynamic Entry" [sic] has been very popular of late to capture just about anybody. No thought is given to other occupants of the residence, nor to the property therein. The police destroy what they cannot confiscate, and terrorize anybody they come into contact with. At the age of 14, police came into my house and destroyed most of it. My sister was who they were looking for. Oh yes, my sister had left home a year before the raid.
We won't mention the accidental murders [sic] of innocents due to "informants" misdirection, or just old-fashioned incompetence. There have been dozens of cases throughout the country in the last 20 years. Those are just the ones we know about. The high-profile ones the press will bother to notice.
Police officers playing army is a dangerous thing. It is abused more often than it is used correctly. The SWAT team should be called in so rarely in most jurisdictions as to make them unnecessary.
They have caused irreparable damage to the 4th amendment of our constitution.
I don't trust *anybody* with a badge or color of authority. I have been subjected to too much abuse and it has cost me thousands of dollars in increased insurance costs and lost work.
Finally, don't tell me that I'm "free" because of jackasses like you. We fought WWII against these exact same problems. LaPierre is right, you guys are "jack-booted thugs".
Jolly will stop ranting now.
-- Jollyprez (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 22, 1999.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
-- Mark Hillyard (email@example.com), August 22, 1999.
May I correct Mr. Forrest Covington, whom I agree with in every other thing that he staded. Mr. Covington, you stated, "Our Constitution gave us our freedom 200 years ago". Actually, our rights were only ennumerated and listed by the Constitiution. They were granted by our Creator. They are inalienable, in other words, they cannot be taken away regardless of what Mr. No-Nads says. Our rights are not granted by the Constitution: They are LISTED by it.
Bulldog at the ready
-- Bulldog (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 22, 1999.
May I add one more small tidbit? Notice that Mr Nadless states that we should be grateful for his thuggish ways. Next, we see that his email address contains "swat@U.com". Sounds like little G.I Joe really made a Freudian slip and admits that he wants to take a swipe at liberty-loving individuals.
Bulldog at the ready
-- Bulldog (email@example.com), August 22, 1999.
"Political action" and "writing your congressman" are useless. The only possibly viable solution is one you can generalize to all government areas, as outlined in "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. (Search on www.loompanics.com and/or www.amazon.com for reviews and to order.)
-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.
Oh cry, why don't yah!
Most of you that bitch about cops then go on to tell a story about how, even though you were commiting a crime, were treated like CRIMINALS, gasp! Are there bad cops? Sure, because they come from the same community and gene pool that you do. They are no better or worse than you. So, just as there are so good posters here there are some jerks as well.
What to do? Well you could start by knowing what you are talking about. Have you not yet seen the danger of beleiving every post you see on the net, have you not yet seen the danger of running your mouth when you have only a few facts (and some of them may be false), have you not yet seen the danger of thinking that just because some one has lived next door to you for years doesn't mean he cann't be a criminal?
It kills me as I read the posts here, most (not all) of you live in a world that has no connection to the real world. You don't know what goes on around you, you don't care to know how the real world is simply because is to baaad. You don't pull your head out of the sand long enough to see the real world. You sit and wait for something good to happen or for others to do your dirty work for you. THEN you bitch about how they do it. Hey Mumsie, if you don't like how the police operate in your town then have them fired, take the training and do the job yourself. Oh no, to dangerous! Then shut up about it.
Try this next time you need a cop, call A or the rest of the posters who don't seem to want any law enforcement. Let me know how you come out, if your still alive.
-- The Man (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 22, 1999.
From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr near Monterey, California
This attitude on the part of cops has been with us for a while.
-- Dancr (email@example.com), August 22, 1999.
Sunday August 22 5:45 PM ET
Number Of Offenders Reaches Record 5.9 Million
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The number of U.S. adults behind bars or under police supervision last year reached a record 5.9 million offenders, almost 3 percent of the adult population, the Justice Department reported Sunday.
The figure, in a report issued by the department's Bureau of Justice Statistics, means that about one out of every 34 adults were in the nation's prisons and jails, or on probation or parole for various criminal acts.
Probationers are criminals sentenced to a period of correctional supervision in the community, while people on parole undergo a period of conditional supervision after having served part of a prison term.
The latest figure includes a record 4.1 million people who are under supervision and a record 1.82 million people who were incarcerated at the end of 1998.
This correctional population represents an increase of 163,800 people from the previous year.
``It's been a steady increase since 1990,'' Thomas Bonczar, a co-author of the bureau's report.
Twenty-one percent of adults on probation were female, up from 18 percent in 1990, while 64 percent where white, down from 68 percent in 1990, according to the report. It said 35 percent were black, up from 34 percent in 1990 and one percent either American Indian, Alaska Native or Asian American.
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 22, 1999.
I do believe not all cops are bad. You painted a picture of total corruption in the police ranks. When you are looking down the gun barrel of a P.O.S. trying to rob or rape you, this "booted thug" will risk his life to protect you! Good look in your anarchist idea of a perfect society. By the way, if you can tell me a better country to live in, I suggest you move there. To the person called "The Man", thanks.
-- G.O. Knads (swat@U.com), August 22, 1999.
Hey Go nads,kick my door down and you won't have to worry about a 12 gauge cutting you in half it will happen before the door hits the floor!
-- Daryll (email@example.com), August 22, 1999.
You don't know how many times I've heard a thug say "They will never take me alive!". Those are the ones that wet themselves and hit the floor before I can even say "Boo".
Folks, if cops seem a bit offended when you start picking on them, well...try putting up with the stress we do. And before someone can say "but that is what you are paid for", we know that and accept it. We also know there are bad cops out there, there's just not a lot we can do about it. I can not speak for some of the larger departments out there, but I have nevr seen this thing the press likes to call "the blue wall".
When the officers I know see a bad cop, they take action. Bad cops bring shame to us, i.e. the posts we have seen here. We do the best we can. Have I seen cops make mistakes, yes, have I seen them pay for those mistakes, yes, have I made mistakes, yes and I have paid for them also. Are there cowboys out there wearing a badge? I'm afraid there are. But I have also seen bad taxi drivers, doctors, sack boys and even mothers. We just get a bit touchy when we are all lumped together. How would you like it if the next time there was a report on child abuse, someone said that all mothers are evil and we should put a stop to them?
I think that most people understand the need for GOOD police officers. I also think that most of the complaints come from people who think that because they don't like the laws, they have a right to ignore them and feel they have a right to shoot a anybody trying to stop them.
We are LAW ENFORCEMENT officers, we only enforce the laws that YOU, through those YOU elect pass. If you don't like the laws, change them. Don't blame me for doing the job the community pays me to do. And if you have tried to get a law changed, but can not, it's because most of the people want it. And if you feel that you don't have to obey it, just because you don't like it, then understand that by breaking that law, you are a criminal. And all the screaming and crying about being a victim of jack booted thugs will fall on my deaf ears.
One last thought, don't for a minute think I aprove of all the tactics and bullying the FEDs use. It make me feel ashamed. I am but one, I try to do the best job I can. I can not change the way they act, but I can control myself. Can you?
-- The Man (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 23, 1999.
"Hey Mumsie, if you don't like how the police operate in your town then have them fired, take the training and do the job yourself. Oh no, to dangerous! Then shut up about it."
What is your problem? If you bothered to check out that link, you would see that it was copied and pasted. I happen to like all the cops I've met in my town just fine Mr. Big Tough Guy. One of my closest friends is in law enforcement. He doesn't have to brag, because he is the real thing. That's why he is chosen to escort truly dangerous offenders. I'd like to put you with my seven kids, (five are boys) for 24 hours and you'd probably be whimpering and wetting your pants, so stick your smelly sock in it. If you are trying to tell all of us, that you think Nazi like tactics are justified in the above described scenario, then I suggest you move to a regime with a dictator. You'd fit right in there. Or maybe you're a believer in unnecessarily terrorizing small children. I'm sure that four year old girl was a real danger and threat to any big macho men like you. Sure... point a gun, swear and make her lie face down on the floor. Cops all over America will be proud of you....Not!!!! If you are one of the good cops as you say, then you should have been the first to point out how wrong that was handled IF the facts were true as the article stated. That would reassure people. But when you come off with an attitude like, "if you don't like it...tough", then expect people to get riled. As it happens, I greatly admire the good cops (notice I did not say perfect cops, because I agree that everyone makes mistakes), but I was very upset to read how those children were treated. Maybe their Dad was in a stupid barroom brawl, but is that a reason to terrify a child?!! Not in my opinion. I would like to know where you got the idea that I was downgrading all cops. It was the Behavior of some that was upsetting me. I've been trying very hard to teach my children to respect and appreciate the men and women who are willing to put their lives on the line. If their early exposure is to attitudes like yours above, it will make my job pretty difficult. Try being a nice guy. Why do you expect people to show empathy for the stress that cops deal with, when you show no compassion for those who were treated terribly by the bad cops?
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 23, 1999.
The fact is that most of the time the cops are there after the fact. They usually arrive to take statements and outline corpses. A persons best defence is themselves. Get a gun.
-- CygnusXI (email@example.com), August 23, 1999.
I stand by my statement, if you don't like the way things are done then jump in there and change them. You will never get anything done by standing on the sidelines and whimpering.
I have been shot at by a six year old boy whose dad, a crank lab running, dope dealing, convicted rapist, taught him that all cops existed only to kill his father. You try going into a house with a drug lab, armed felons and booby traps.
As for dealing with your kids, you are closer to the truth than not. I have never been a mother (well depends on who you ask) and have no idea what the job is like. Which is why I will not tell you how to do the job, even if I see you spank one of your children in public. I'm sure that as a mother, the picture in your mind of a child being treated as a suspect is scary. But if you have never been there and don't know what happens, well...then maybe you should learn what is happening in your community.
As to the rest of your baiting, I still stand by my statement: The responsibility for how ALL cops, good and bad, act is yours. They are hired by your community, your state, your fed govt. If you don't like the way they act, it is YOUR duty to change it. Sitting back at your computer and typing "oh woe is me" will do nothing. I would welcome any efforts you put forth in cleaning out the bad cops but I have come to learn that our nation of sheep will do nothing but complain.
Everyboby is a victim. When caught breaking the law it's always: How dare you stop me? When a bad cop strikes it's always: Somebody do something!
Well you are somebody! What have you done to change things? Just like with our fearless leader Clinton, even knowing what kind of man he is, what type of morals he has and knowing what he thinks of us "little people" he was put back into office.
If you truely want thinks to change, do something. Baiting me will change nothing, get off your butt and do something!
-- The Man (justice@even for you.com), August 24, 1999.
I agree with your feelings. If you can figure a way for me to be there before it happens, let me know.
-- The Man (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 24, 1999.
I have thought about this issue somewhat. Yes. The police sometimes make awful mistakes. Yes. There are all kinds of things going on that would make Thomas Jefferson roll over in his grave. (And of course it's also reasonable to asssume that most cops are just out there trying to do the best job they can and genuinely want to protect the citizenry...kudos to the men and women in the white, uh, blue hats.)
Some of you are so angry at the Federal Govt. and other Authorities With Guns that you just want to explode. Some of the things I hear on this forum make me frightened that all kinds of horrendous violence is strirring in the air, waiting to ignite on January 1, 00. It seems that the hardline rightwingers and federal police are BOTH itching for a fight.
But this sort of Ramboism will solve nothing. The far rightwingers would ultimately lose and the government will only tighten its controls as a result. It's a lose-lose situation. Step back and think about it. In a fight between an armored helicopter and a guy with a hunting rifle, the helicopter usually wins.
Don't get me wrong. I think that our current system is very inefficient and top-heavy, and that by and large the reach of Washington needs to shrink (with a few exceptions, ie, NASA, NIH, NEA, and NSF need more support). I love freedom. But with freedom comes responsibility.
Part of this responsibility is in restraint. Hopeless causes are just that--hopeless. Y2K, if anything, is only going to make the vast majority of people whine and complain that the government isn't doing enough to help them. And government will almost certainly oblige them. That is how they stay in business. That is the sad reality. No amount of hollering and shooting is going to change that. To those who fantasize about violence, I beg you to stay at home on Jan. 1. But don't give up.
If you don't like the way government acts, remember that you have some far more powerful "bullets" in your arsenal. You have these things called "votes." You can even run for office, yourself, and persuade people to rally behind you. You can remind people of their Constitutional rights. You can blow the whistle on leaders who trash our freedoms.
Some of you think that we are no longer a free country. Well, in some ways this IS true. Nevertheless, I don't think we were all that free when Andrew Jackson death-marched thousands of Southern Indians--many of whom had farms, churches, their own alphabet, civilization--way back in the 1830s. Slaves certainly wouldn't have called this a free country, and neither would blacks who had to suffer from Jim Crow laws, lynchings, and corrupt sheriffs only a few decades ago. Conscripts marching off to world war I amidst prohibitions on free speech might have had second thoughts about how free they were. etc. etc. There have always been appalling, unlawful things going on in our Republic since it was founded. Corruption and abuse of power, even in your own backyard, is nothing new.
Once upon a time, there were lots of angry people in a country called France. They overthrew their corrupt regime amidst cries for "justice" and "freedom." Then the rebels came to power. Then they proceeded to kill and decapitate anything that got in their way. You can repeat a version of this little story in many many places that are familiar: Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc. What went wrong? Nothing, really. In the words of a certain French revolutionary whose name evades me, "revolutions eat their own children." Revolution usually doesn't work. Usually it's just one group of butchers who claw their way to the top after killing the previous group of thugs.
There is an alternative to revolution. It is called subversion. It is slower and more quiet but far more effective. You can be subsersive, too. You can raid the system for all the tools you need. You can attain fortune and recognition. You don't have to languish in prison or end up with a bullet in your back. It may require a bit of compromise along the way, but nothing is ever won without sacrifice, of which compromise is one major component.
I realize that this message is somewhat out of place and may even raise a few hackles. But I invite your criticism. I don't care if I am wrong, but this is my opinion; this is where it's exposed to fresh air where it can be evaluated so it can be made more solid or trashed entirely.
-- coprolith (email@example.com), August 24, 1999.
Dear "Man", I do realize that kids can be dangerous, but this was not a drug raid. I didn't hear you say one word of criticism for the scenario presented. What about not presenting a search warrant prior to searching? If cops won't speak up, how far do you think we will get? I said before that we had twelve thousand dollars of damage done by a drunk driver who plowed into our parked vehicles, and he tried to flee the scene of the accident but was stopped by a neighbor who managed to stop him about a half mile away (only because his car was somewhat crippled). Well, he was an ex-cop and still had a brother on the force. He didn't even get a ticket. You think I didn't fight that? I talked to many people, including MADD and the local state representative. I don't care who this guy's relatives were. It was probably a matter of time before he plowed into a person and maimed or killed them. There was a united stonewall among the officers protecting this guy. So now, please explain to me what my recourse was in this case. Instead of insulting us, why not try to gain understanding of both view points? I am listening to you. I want to understand. But your attitude was so hostile from the get go, that it just increased the perception of "bad cop who doesn't care and will abuse power". Instead of mocking people, make constructive suggestions. I also had a loved one who was a crime victim once, and I loved the officers who helped us. I made follow-up calls and a visit to express appreciation. The bottom line is that some cops will abuse their power, as do other people in other areas of life, and they will protect each other. What if someone you loved was hurt or killed by a doctor that committed negligent malpractice? What if all the other doctors and personnel lied together and protected him? What if you found yourself with no recourse? And then another doctor posting told you..."Tough... if you don't like it, go to medical school!" Or would you rather have that doctor acknowledge that it happens, and give you advice on how to combat in a realistic and achieveable way? The reality is that at 41 I am not going to have a law enforcement career. So when you mockingly suggest this, you just continue the perception of the cop who will abuse his power. My original post was (as I said) copied and pasted. It was directed at the pattern that seems to be emerging of trampling on Constitutional rights. What good are they if the cop is having a bad hair day and so... tough luck? I am also against the red tape that has developed that has tied the hands of the good cops, and released criminals because of some technicality. I think we need to work on finding what we can agree on, and end the fruitless and pointless hostilities. I'd like to think you are one of the good cops too. I privately corresponded with a law enforcement officer on an earlier post (who had gotten some unnecessary flaming) to express appreciation to him for his years of service. So please tell us... how do we fight back when there is a bad cop?
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 24, 1999.
I'm going to keep this short..
You are a thief for the empire. You are the first line of defense for the Tyranny. You are the weapon arm of the fascist system, so many here confuse with socialism. You are in your position by choice. You are an enemy of John Q. Public, and the peon of Nelson P. Coorperation, and/or Sen. William P. Lawyer. You and your compromising system are unconstitutional in it's body itself, not mentioning the laws it propogates.
Mr. Man and Mr. Gotnads, I will never let the system, wich you proudly defend, infect my children with their deadly meme.
-- (Gotcupsfirstname.lastname@example.org), August 24, 1999.
And this reply impresses anyone but you?
Sorry Mumsie, you don't count any longer. Never try to teach a jackass to sing, it wastes your time and upsets the jackass.
-- The Man (protect@even you.com), August 25, 1999.
Man...Would you like to explain this lovely sentiment? "Sorry Mumsie, you don't count any longer."
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 25, 1999.
PS. My email address is real.
-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 25, 1999.
Mr. Macho MAN: You're precisely the kind of pig some of us, like Gotcups, are talking about. "The thin blue line," my ass. Rather, the enforcers for our pimp government.
All you statist pigs oink about how bad it would be if you weren't around to protect us. You don't protect us, you POLICE us. And, if I may expand on what someone else said, all you do for REAL victime is draw chalk lines and fill out paperwork. Now, when it comes to breaking down doors for druggies, that's what you're really in it for. Don't give us your self-righteous, self-serving crap.
-- A (A@AisA.com), August 27, 1999.
Mr. Macho MAN: No response?
-- A (A@AisA.com), August 30, 1999.