I hope it's a 9 or 10

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I am getting more POed day by day. I no longer care whether this society survives. In fact, I hope it's a 9 or 10, and goes down the tubes, even though my chances are slim in such a scenario (being an old fart and not as agile as I once was).

Everywhere I turn, the screws are tightening. Drug laws, money laundering laws, prostitution laws, gun laws, tradesman registration laws, tax laws, travel restriction laws, ID to work laws, ID to get your mail delivered laws, wage and hour laws, independent contractor laws, business registration laws, waste disposal laws, hate crime laws, sexual harassment laws, liquor license laws, insurance requirement laws, zoning laws, building permit laws ....

Government monitoring EVERYTHING (look up "Echelon" in your search engines). Fingerprints and DNA samples. Cameras everywhere. Postal "Service" monitoring of everything that comes from overseas (Ever wonder why it takes more than a week to get something from even other countries with good postal services?) Super computers listening to your phone conversations with voice recognition programs for words like g*e*r*m, n*u*c*l*e*a*r, c*r*a*c*k, g*u*n ....

My efforts henceforth will be to try to make the situation WORSE, to try and bring this system down.

Any of you feel the same, here is something I clipped. I'm going to revise it and e-mail it to everyone in the world. You could do the same, if you feel the same.

Y2K and Your Money

Later this year, the BANKING system is going to go BELLY UP.

Why? Simply because there is not enough CASH in existence to cover the additional demand for actual cash by people wanting to build up a cash stash in preparation for Y2K problems.

How? Because years ago big government in cahoots with big banking created a fraudulent money/credit/banking system. Banks create money out of thin air (but, naturally, it's illegal for YOU to do it) far in excess of actual cash in existence. Most of the "money" is just bits in computer files. This is the "magic" of fractional reserve banking.

Basically, there is only enough cash in the "system" to cover 1% to 2% of the amounts in -- basically -- all the checking and savings accounts. This means that if you and everyone else at the same time wants cash instead of electronic numbers, there's only enough cash to give you 1% to 2% of YOUR MONEY in cash. Or, only enough cash to give just 1% to 2% of everyone all their money in cash. If you are number 3+ in a line of 100 people, you will be S.O.L.

Bottom line -- get some extra cash out of the bank NOW. By Labor Day it may be too late.

Y2K (Year 2000):


S.O.L.:  Sh*t out of luck

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 21, 1999


Loser, go away. You want TEOTWAWKI to make you more powerful.

In the end you will die of ulcers and a brain aneurism from your high-blood pressure caused by your hate.

Delete this thread, please !

-- not-a-doomer (not-a-doomer@doomerwatch.com), August 21, 1999.

A is absolutely right! Only a Y2K scale of a 9 or 10 will collpase our Governments control of the people! Our founding fathers created Government to "SERVE" the people. Now we have become the servants or a much better word is "SLAVES"! This is why Gary North is also hoping for a 9 or 10. Gary is one of the few Americans who has his eyes open to what our Government has become. It has become a monster that has gone out of control! Only Y2K at a 9 or 10 can kill that Monster!

-- smitty (smitty@sandiego.com), August 21, 1999.

A - I agree wholeheartedly. The time for collapse has come!

-- It's going to (hit@the.fan), August 21, 1999.

Hey, notadoomer, who are you? The natzi forum censor? Let the guy have his say, I happen to agree with pretty much all he said - however I would like to change things from within. Of course that is never gonna happen so logic dictates that A is correct. A 9 or 10 will rid us of the legions of petty beaurocrats (i.e. Double Decker, now allegedly a "Chief Administrator" for some unlucky hole), and rid us of the ten zillion laws that do nothing but encumber society - not make it a better place to live. Sure we need laws, but not ten million of them.

Case in point.

Last week the NASA programmer who thought a comet was going to hit earth went and hid in a cave. Minding his own business, not bothering anyone, essentially camping out in a cave.

Along comes some busybody cop who proceeds to ARREST him for DISTURBING THE PEACE!!!!!!!

I ask you, who's peace was he disturbing? He was in the middle of freakin nowhere....

We are living in a POLICE STATE, if you don't know it.

Check out all the Executive Orders waiting to be implemented in the very near future - check out the role FEMA and the military will be playing in your enslavement...

On no account delete.

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 21, 1999.

Troll alert!!!!

This thread belongs in the trash can. Destruction is not preparation, and what follows destruction is very often worse than what preceded.


-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 21, 1999.

Looks like some people cannot handle the truth! That's how Hitler made it, because he had people supporting him that could not see the forrest for the trees! The truth hurts so much that they scream "delete"!!! What this country needs is patriots like John Adams and John Hancock! Now most Americans like the two above are a bunch of cowards. That is why our country is what it is!

-- Y2K ready (Y2K@ready.com), August 21, 1999.

I smell an imposter here. This cannot be the 'a' we all know and love, it must be a parody. The real 'a' has never written more than two consecutive (and short) paragraphs without attacking *someone*. So I think this is a troll attempting to make 'a' look stupid. And it worked, too, because Andy agrees!

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 21, 1999.

You're a freakin' moron flint, you can't even distinguish between 'a' and 'A'...

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 21, 1999.

On the other hand, if this is an Andy imposter, it's a damn good one. No sign of intelligent life, Captain.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 21, 1999.

So, making a mockery of a prepartion forum by promoting destruction is called "the truth"! Big brother would be proud of such double speak.

There are plenty of places on the web for promoting the massive fatalities that would accompany a 9 or a 10, but a preparation forum is not a suitable place for such malevolence.


-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 21, 1999.

You mean I normally display signs of intelligence, Flint?


-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 21, 1999.

On the contrary, Andy. Any such sign would be a dead giveaway of a fake.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 21, 1999.

Then I must be a FAKE.

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 21, 1999.

Must be a "Flint" imposter.

He's not normally an asshole.

-- Dog Gone (layinglow@rollover.now), August 21, 1999.


Do you TRULY want the end time scenario to be 9 or 10?

I certainly don't want to experience that.

But it WILL happen, no matter what you write.

The global economy is vastly over extended. Debts are unreal and certainly not payable.

Y2K or not Y2K, the stock market WILL crash because the inflated height of the economic bubble can NOT be sustained.

Any economist worth his weight in beans would agree.

I hope you and all readers of your post are preparing.

We will need to be ready, AisA.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), August 21, 1999.


An "old fart", eh. My guess was a 14 year old acting out his anger over his terminal acne problem, but whatever.

(I would think that I am about to belabor the obvious here, but again, whatever.) If the gov't has totalitarian intentions, a 9 or a 10 would be the perfect scenario to make those intentions real. Last I heard, the average citizen has no air power or any guided anti-personnel missles. This means that even if the military would suffer a loss of ordinance, due to Y2K problems, it wouldn't do much to upset the balance of power, in terms of attacking it's own citizens. There's still the infantry and artillery. Citizen militias would be lambs to the slaughter. You're dreaming, if you think a 10 would be anybody's moment of glory.

You're also banking on all citizen's militia groups uniting; another unlikely scenario. Some militias are legit, some are fronts for hate groups. Van Huizen, up in Michigan is working with the F.B.I., to guard against actions by hate group militias. Just because they all can say "gobmint" and spell Clinton with a "K", doesn't mean they all are of the same mindset.

I suppose mutiny's a small possibility, but I wouldn't bet the farm. The Federal troops are going to be scared s--tless, in such a situation. They're likely to cleave to the relative security of their own units, rather than risk some great unknown, by jumping ship. After all, they're a part of the "gobmint", too. They've heard the talk. They'll know they're targets.

Sorry A. You're the victim of too many movies, and not enough reality. Besides, what happened to the talk last night about, "The difference between a polly and a doomer is that a polly prays he's right and a doomer prays he's wrong"? What does that make you now, besides some other obvious things, that I won't belabor?

Hey, we have it on good authority, from Andy, that the Russians are coming any day now, anyway, so let's all just sit back and relax, crack open a cold one, switch on TNN and watch reruns of the "Real McCoys". Might be our last chance.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), August 21, 1999.

Hey Bok,

you're forgetting the Chinese...

for the latest listen to John Whitley last night on www.sightings.com

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 21, 1999.

I am not getting involved in this debate, except to say that I can definitely believe that this once great nation is headed for a horrific breakdown and martial law. Every freaking move we make is monitored, controlled or legislated in some manner. Clinton is still in the White House (God help us!) and now Senator Feinstein wants to collect our guns.

Y2K is only one disaster awaiting us. The Government and the serious threat to our Constitutional liberties is real...here and now!

-- Irving (Irving@privacy.net), August 21, 1999.

Quick point.

Andy is right on. A (A@AisA.com) has been posting here for a very long time. He isn't a troll and he deserves his say. "A" is not "a".

Anyway, Flint...you seem a bit touchy and more confrontational lately. You ok buddy?

For the record, I don't want anything close to a 9 or 10. I'd just assume skip the death and decay and the years needed to rebuild and work for positive change today and tomorrow at a time when the benefits of great economic health as well as personal health make life great for the vast majority.



-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 21, 1999.


I suppose you're right. My patience is temporarily very short (at least I *hope* this is temporary). But no cigarettes for 19 days now and counting. At least I'm not counting hours anymore.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 21, 1999.

I hope your stocking up on fags for post-rollover flint, you'll need 'em!!!

Good barter item too... + coffee, booze, bullets, TP ...

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 21, 1999.

This is not A. This is Y2K Pro impersonating A.

-- walter (walter@noturbusiness.com), August 21, 1999.


Please delete this thread.

-- cynic (cynic@skeptic.com), August 21, 1999.

Agree there, Andy. Got stocks of all those things. Don't know what I'll do with the cigs and booze if nothing happens, since I can't use either one. But surely even under ordinary conditions I can trade them.

Another side note: Finished hauling, splitting and stacking 5 cords of wood, so I'm good for a long cold winter. And can barely make it up the stairs.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), August 21, 1999.

Umm..I think your wrong Bonk. A 10 will bring them down like a rock. Maybee, just maybee their will be enough to rebuild.


I think the Rus/Chin are already into our govt. in key positions. The only threat would be the old school isolationists in both their govts. In every law I see compromise "me" for "they". Most of the UN is socialist.

Gimme a 10 any day. It's our only chance.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 21, 1999.

R. Wright:

A 10? Man I hope not. Just think about the carnage that would ensue. I'm no fan of the white trash in the white house, but that aside, wouldn't a 10 mean lost lives in the millions? Most of them innocent? I shudder to think of the possibilities.

-- haha (haha@haha.com), August 21, 1999.


Regardless of the length of time the poster has previously been posting, statements such as: "My efforts henceforth will be to try to make the situation WORSE, to try and bring this system down" make this a trollish post at best.

However, it is actually worse than that. Given the attempts of at least some of TPTB to equate Y2K preparers with terrorists, placing such posts on this forum provides "evidence" for such attempts. Subsequent posts that welcome or otherwise support such a post simply provides additional "evidence" to be used by the very same people that the original post purports to be attempting to bring down. Indeed, such supportive subsequent posts may be very useful to anyone who would like to target preparers as "the real Y2K problem".


-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 22, 1999.

Bonk....whaa-hooo...that was funny. A real knee-slapper, by Jiminy. I yelled for the wifey to click off the comedy channel and come in here, to read THAT one.

And while the gov't is falling like a rock, what do you suppose will be happening to all of us. Oh wait! That's right! Obi-Wan has shown us all how to use The Force, so we'll be magically protected. We'll be strong and they'll be weak. Die Darth Vader! You totalitarian scum! Now is OUR time!

I just whipped off a quick e-mail to George Lucas. He might be missing some plot ideas, here.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), August 22, 1999.

I don't seriously want a 9-10. Too many of my friends would die. While there are many things in this world that i do not approve of, and godonlyknows how often i'd wished all the bs would just vanish, i seriously doubt anyone here would be jumping for joy in Infomagicland. IMHO, if you want to change the world and make it a more loving, friendly, more respectful place, start with yourself.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 22, 1999.

Right on, Andy! You tell 'em. When are you coming home to Blighty? We're missing you over at Speakers Corner. You had one of the lowest blink rates of 'em all in your day. In the meantime, keep up the good work online. There's a lot of saving to be done.

-- Shabby Ranter (sranter@speakers_corner.com), August 22, 1999.

Note to everyone: I'm A@AisA.com. I'm not Andy(2000EOD@prodigy.net); I don't have the energy he does. I'm not the other "a" (lower case -- a, a@a.a)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.

Just because you see a 10 coming, doesn't mean you want it. It won't matter if you wanted it or not. Some claim an 8. How long before that turns into a 10? A 6? I tend to agree with the few who say 1 OR 10, no in between. To listen to Bokonon, we should have never been able to free ourselves from England. He seems to believe our military forces would protect the current administration (now THERE'S something to laugh about). What will he say next. They took an oath? BWAHAHAHAHAH

Jerry's last comment is the epitome of how we find ourselves in this mess to begin with. No guts, no glory, no balls, no freedom.

Those who are so terribly concerned about our environment make suggestions of, "taxing the third child" or "running your grey water into your yard". The only hope for the environment will be monumentally, massive death of those destroying it. The banking system is going down faster than the Titanic. Game's over. Governments WILL be in chaos and you all can wish and hope yourselves to death if you want to. Far better to come to terms with it. Alot of GI head in the sand stuff going on around here. Go read Klinton's newest spin. We have ALL suddenly become 'right-wing extremists'. Pull yourselves up by the bootstraps folks. We're about to begin playing a new game.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 22, 1999.

It would be nice if, in the next session, the legislature decided to make no new laws until they had reviewed the old ones with a mandate for dropping as many as possible. There are so many laws now that we are all criminals, vulnerable to selective punishment whenever the agencies so choose. This is not a good thing.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), August 22, 1999.

Jerry B: I'm beyond caring much if I and other Y2K preparers are considered terrorists or not. YOU MAKE MY POINT -- THIS GOVERNMENT IS SO CORRUPT THAT IT USES ANYTHING TO DISCREDIT AND ELIMINATE ANY OPPOSITION OF ANY TYPE. And, look around you -- MOST PEOPLE SUPPORT IT, THE FRICKIN' SHEEP!

You're aware about Y2K; but like most people, you're clueless about politico-economics. I'm aware. I sure didn't "get it" in public (government) schools. The sheeple had their chance. They blew it. I just hope I can last somewhat longer than most so I can watch as they go off the cliff, bleating.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.

Bok and others: No, I don't really want to see a 9 or 10. I would really prefer a world where everyone (left-wing cranks and right-wing Christian Wackos -- not to mention Muslims, Jews, Hindus....) MINDS THEIR OWN FRICKIN' BUSINESS (MYOB) so we would have, in the immoral words of Rodney King, "Cain't we all jes' get along?"

Now, in the immortal words of George Bush, "Ain't gonna happen."

This system is clamping down on everthing, everywhere (worldwide) that we will all be in f*ing strait jackets in another year or two if Y2K doesn't blow it up.

If you got a patient with gangrene of the leg, usually you got to chop off the leg.

Remember this, and remeber it well: If Y2K or something doesn't bring this system down; you will KNOW within a couple of years that you are niggers (regardless of race) on the government plantation. You won't be able to hide the reality of that from yourself any longer.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.

Funny typo (to me anyway) -- I meant Rodney King's IMMORTAL words.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.

i wish our we the people could take back OUR country, but to hope for the deaths of many people as a way to do it...are you sick?

-- sdtyhk (no@no.no), August 22, 1999.

As my mom used to tell me when I was young and not happy with the powers that be and the system: 'any time you think collaspe is the answer, just look south of our borders...look at south america...revolution leads only to more poverty and repression...the only changes are the faces in control. For the ordinary citizen nothing is improved and much is lost. Changing the system from within is the only sensible alternative.'

When the macho male cries out for revolution, mothers hold your children close: we know who dies and who starves in the largest numbers. Don't talk to us of idealistic mumbo-jumbo while you stand there all too ready to sacrifice our lives to your twisted idea of some perfect Amerika. It isn't the man with the gun in his hand who will suffer; he'll only die...after he's used chaos to justify everything else he feels he's entitled to do, take, steal, etc.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), August 22, 1999.


I've been banned from speakers' corner... must have been something I said...

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 22, 1999.

But Sheili, they're toast South of the border too! It won't be any better North of us. Untold numbers are going to die in a 10 anyway. Y2K won't care if you're macho or woosie. This isn't about picking a fight. The fight is about to pick us all. In a 10, kinder, gentler ways will get you killed.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 22, 1999.

You people are keeping me from watching "Mad TV" and playing grab-ass with my roomie (living in sin -- horrors).

Shelia -- You're right in a sense that you can't eat idealism. But idealism determines if you have a society that is productive enough to enable you to eat. And you forget that THIS country started under a different concept than all the Latin (Spanish/Portuguese) based systems. Catholics are even bigger sheep than Protestants. Much as I despise Protestantism, it's better than Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, etc. Ever wonder why all those "wog" countries have historically had more problems, including overpopulation and starvation, than the Protestant nations? It's the culture, estupido, and religion is a part of that.

"Oh, the children -- sob, sniff, snuffle, whimper." Barf!

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.

A, with all due respect, I don't think your Catholic/Protestant thing is very accurate.

Catholic culture: Look at those poor people. Let's love them and make babies with them and share in their misery, because God ESPECICALLY loves the poor. Hey, Jesus was poor so blessed are we who are called to his (poor man's) supper.

Protestant culture: Look at those disgusting, dirty, inferior poor people. They are poor because they deserve it and are obviously being punished by Almighty God for their sinfulness. Let's give Old God a hand, finish them off and kill 'em. Or better yet, take away their land and enslave them. Cain must suffer, so must they. It's our manifest destiny, our Divinely ordained mission.

I think a good deal of Latin America's problems can be blamed on we gringos meddling in their affairs and ravenously extracting the resources of their lands. Their religion is less to blame.

And furthermore, compare Great Britain (majority Protestant) and Ireland (majority Catholic). In spite of centuries of cutthroat tyranny and exploitation over Ireland, within less than a century Ireland now has a HIGHER per capita GNP than the Brits.

go figure.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 22, 1999.

OK seeing as we're now scraping the bottom of the barrel with religion I'll do my best to piss you all off :)

Atheism ----Sh!t Happens

Hare Krishna ----Sh!t Happens, rama dama ding dong

Hinduism----This sh!t happened before

Islam---- If sh!t happens, take a hostage

Zen --- What is the sound of sh!t happening?

Buddhism --- When sh!t happens, is it really sh!t?

Confucianism --- Confucius say "Sh!t Happens"

7th Day Adventist --- Sh!t happens on Saturday

Protestantism --- Sh!t won't happen if I work harder.

Catholicism --- If sh!t happens, I deserve it.

Jehovah's witness --- Knock, Knock, sh!t happens.

Unitarian --- What is this sh!t?

Judaism --- Why does sh!t always happen to me?

Mormon --- Sh!t happens again and again and again.

Rastafarian --- Let's smoke this sh!t!

-- andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 22, 1999.

"You're right in a sense that you can't eat idealism. But idealism determines if you have a society that is productive enough to enable you to eat."

I agree with this...but it's all about balance. You can't work to bring the system down and pretend you give a fat A.. about productivity.

Will continue: "Y2K won't care if you're macho or woosie. This isn't about picking a fight."

There you are wrong: A was specifically noting that he intended to work to help bring about a 10...if that's not picking a fight, I don't know what is. A truly strong person does not need to pick fights, and has the inner strength of character and basic love of life to care for the children. When A does his mocking of anyone who would care about life and quality of life he undoes himself, exposes his basic hatred of his own life and self.

As for what comes to us in the future I am as prepared as I can be; I have prepared for others besides myself; and I intend to do all I can to ensure quality of life around me in whatever senario unfolds. I do not think it's patriotic or in any way honors the memory of our founding fathers to pound one's chest about taking back 'our' country while making disparaging, sarcastic remarks re: children. What life despising mindset do these remarks come from?

I would suggest that all keep their critical thinking caps on and whenever you wade into an ideological discussion remember to bring your hearts and to weigh and balance all high-minded rhetoric (of course there hasn't been much of that here) against the reality you may be buying into/condoning either by omission or comission.

The fight is about to pick us all. In a 10, kinder, gentler ways will get you killed."

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), August 22, 1999.

"The fight is about to pick us all. In a 10, kinder, gentler ways will get you killed."

May be ... but I would suggest that kinder, gentler ways will keep one out of the line of fire... I would also much rather die attempting to save what can be saved than to participate in mindless waring with whatever local "them" is set up as the enemy. Unlike so many of you tonight, I do not perceive FEMA, the Natl. Guard, or the military as the ENEMY...they are people, some of them are people I know and admire. With folks like A out there they will be needed to protect the utility workers who will as usual be out there trying to restore any disruptions in service.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), August 22, 1999.

3:45am -- I oughta know better. But anyone who's read down this far is probably in as bad shape as I am, so...

A couple words of discussing a's proposition.

Does a banking collapse CAUSE a 9 or 10 in its life-threatening aspects?

A bank collapse doesn't make the embedded systems go kablooey in the electrical transmission lines or the oil refineries.

I am more and more distinguishing the computer meltdown and the bank/financial meltdown. The first at anything near a 5 would probably cause the second. But the second may happen on its own.

And as far as I've read the speculations of others, the most dangerous to people stuff happens from the strictly computer-caused breakdown of electric, water, gas, and sewage systems.

The food distribution system may take a hit first from computers, and second from the economy going downward. But a depression on its own is unlikely to kill millions in a couple months before they can make adjustments. (OTOH, this city-based society is more distant from its farming roots than in the 1930s Depression. So, maybe...)

a thinks this is a good time to bring down fractional reserve banking. This forum is unlikely to do as much as USA Today and the first TV camera on a crowd lined up outside a bank in that regard.

(Will continue) is right: if it's gonna happen, it'll be with or without us saying a word. Jerry B shouldn't worry -- most people spoke out responsibly here and out-numbered a by several to one. Most of us are justifiably suspicious of an engineered 'revolution', and are not picking up ANY flags to wave on this one.

y2k IS the logical end to capitalist triumphalism in the 1990s: Every man for himself on the way UP, and the same on the way DOWN.

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), August 22, 1999.

P.S. -- Congrats (so far) to Flint on the cigs. A sign of hope that you're planning to be around far into the century.

Health and fitness -- the final prep frontier!

-- jor-el (jor-el@krypton.uni), August 22, 1999.


Though I DO understand your frustration and cynicism (sp?) I do not wish for a 9 or 10 to clear up the problems. Your comment about "Oh the children....." Barf is a really telling statement about your state of mind.

If half of you folks who piss and moan about no changes happening for the good would get off your asses and encourage folks to learn a bit about issues and cadidates and VOTE we could have the RIGHT kind of revolution. As it is you just want some technical glitch to clear out the mistakes YOUR GENERATION AND YOUR ANCESTORS' MADE! Come on, get real, become active in educating folks (including tutoring to read for adult learners), starting initiatives, etc. There is no doubt we can fix alot of the problems that way.

But wait, that would mean you would have to care about someone other than yourselves.

(rant mode off).

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), August 22, 1999.

A, as another "old fart," I know how you feel. We've both seen a lot of freedoms and good things go down the drain in our time. But by not caring, if it's a 9 or 10, you are in good company. In an interview I read by Arthur Clarke, he said, "Why is it that people can't act as human beings should? I'm appalled by what we all see on the news every day--massacres, atrocities, injustices, outrages of all kinds. When I see what's happening, I sometimes wonder if the human race deserves to survive." I think a lot of us feel this way.

I am constantly being flamed for wanting to have clean water and air. This means we Must reduce the population. But if you mention birth control the religious right has a screaming fit. A, I printed out the statement you made about overpopulation, and I'm passing it out at every environmental meeting I attend. I also printed out my own statement to show I was in complete agreement.

One of the things I'm an sick to death of is people wanting to delete every thread that doesn't agree with their view. Don't read it if you don't like it bonehead!!! I'm sick to death of the thought police and our idiot legislators, both Dems and Repubs, trying to legislate morals. I'm furious at Clinton wanting to have access to everyone's computer. And I'm even more furious that our government employees have one of the best heath care plans on the planet, at a time when most people can't even afford the most basic insurance, or else if they can, it takes a disproportionate chunk of their income or retirement funds. And we who are not a burden on the system get the shaft. The top one percent of the coporate millionaires have no problem. The non-working poor get a boost from the government, the middle class gets the sharp stick.

A, hang in there. I agree with you.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 22, 1999.

I hope it's not a 9 or 10,but species die-back is natural.and as william s. burroughs once said;"man is a bad animal."

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 22, 1999.

A, you ranted:

Everywhere I turn, the screws are tightening. Drug laws, money laundering laws, prostitution laws, gun laws, tradesman registration laws, tax laws, travel restriction laws, ID to work laws, ID to get your mail delivered laws, wage and hour laws, independent contractor laws, business registration laws, waste disposal laws, hate crime laws, sexual harassment laws, liquor license laws, insurance requirement laws, zoning laws, building permit laws ...

You forgot an important law in your rant. I'm sick and tired of the Americans with Disabilities Act. The ADA protects the mentally ill, so if I'm an employer and a whacko like you wants me to hire you, I can't discriminate and refuse to hire you just because you are a whacko. The gubmint is protecting the looney tunes at the expense of business and the rest of society.

Some people seem to think government is more restrictive than it was thirty years ago. Not necessarily so. Thirty years ago whackos like you were taken away by nice young men in their clean white coats to the Funny Farm, where life is beautiful all the time. Nowadays, it is politically incorrect to even use the term "whackos" to refer to the mentally ill. Nowadays, the politically correct thing to do is to give them a modem and turn them loose on the internet.

[sarcasm mode on] let's overthrow the government so we can put the looney toons back in the nuthouse where they belong. [sarcasm mode off]

-- Fruitcake Spotter (A@isawhacko.com), August 22, 1999.


I doubt very much you really agree with A, or that he agrees with you. Amongst the laws that A is bitching about are "waste disposal laws... sexual harassment laws, liquor license laws. . . insurance requirement laws."

Undoubtedly, A would like the freedom to open an uncontrolled pig farm or toxic waste dump next to your property. If you complain about the odors or the toxic wastes leaking into your well water--tough. He wants to live in a world without restrictions.

He also wants the freedom to be able to sexually harrass you with impunity. (Note: I am not saying he wants to sexually harrass you. He just want the freedom to do so without govenrment interference).

And he is against liquor lisences or insurance requirement laws. I guess he wants the freedom to sell booze to anyone without restrictions, even if he knows they are already drunk out of their gourd and they are about to get in their car to drive twenty miles home. Oh, and he is obviously against the government requiring the drunk driver to have insurance. The drunk driver should be allowed to kill or maim as many people as he likes and if any of them want to sue him for their hospital bills--screw them if he doesn't have the money to pay for it.

No, we can't have the government make laws that might actually save people if it interferes with A's precious freedoms. After all A is the Center of the Universe and no one must get in his way.

Fruitcake Spotter

-- Fruitcake Spotter (A@isTheCenterOfTheUniverse.com), August 22, 1999.

In any totalitarian country when the police stop you they demand your documents. All we have to show when stopped is our drivers license, auto registration, and proof of insurance. If you don't have all of these items in CA you go talk to the judge or send in your fine. Then the police, at their discression can search your vehicle.

My family has been shooting on "Federal Land" near Big Trees Park for years. A guest of ours went out to shoot and was arrested by the Feds. My brother went looking for the guy and was confronted by several Feds. They asked if he was this guys friend and told my brother they were going to search his truck. No reason, just going to do it. Brother responded, "No!" Feds responded, "Look, we don't want to get into a shoot out with you," They searched the truck and took our guest to the Sheriffs who let him go after a few minutes...No charges could be fixed on our guest.

We win!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), August 22, 1999.

Will Continue,

The liberation of a colony is an entirely different matter, than overthrowing a domestic gov't. So different that any comparasion of the two invites a reader to respond, "BWAHAHAHA". You see, in the case of our liberation from England, the British had a little logistical problem called The Atlantic Ocean. Things like supplies and reinforcements were slow in coming, for them, relatively quick, for us.

If you want a better example of a domestic revolution, go read up on the French Revolution. A far better scenario and a lot less noble and dignified, than our own. I'd love to hear your thoughts on putting everyone on the Guillitine who has the slightest disagreement with the people's tribunal, on having to go about calling everyone "Citizen" and let's not forget Napolean Bonaparte.

On another thread, someone suggested you for president. With your elastic use of historical analogies, I'd say you'd be pretty typical of what's currently available and therefore a shoe-in.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), August 22, 1999.

9 or 10 is population control at its best. Many of you who are preparing for the worse will still not make it but your chances are greatly increased. i thinks the feds know whats going on but you don't with dr spin in control. the net reaches only so few people vs MASSES media. speeple will sleep good tonite with 401k dancing in their heads. yahoo millionaire no longer work until the krash comest. oh the joy of few people by the millions some people say. turkey is a warmup to the joys and sorrow that await the masses. fema doing some early checking on disease control and funeral pyres. listen not to the spin doctors of MASSES media. be fearful of eyes and ears that listen and see everything that is print here. you are know to someone and listed you are. who will be responsible to these deaths and how will survivor deal with them all.

-- i think pollies (suck@reallyhard.com), August 22, 1999.

9 or 10 is population control at its best. Many of you who are preparing for the worse will still not make it but your chances are greatly increased. i thinks the feds know whats going on but you don't with dr spin in control. the net reaches only so few people vs MASSES media. speeple will sleep good tonite with 401k dancing in their heads. yahoo millionaire no longer work until the krash comest. oh the joy of few people by the millions some people say. turkey is a warmup to the joys and sorrow that await the masses. fema doing some early checking on disease control and funeral pyres. listen not to the spin doctors of MASSES media. be fearful of eyes and ears that listen and see everything that is print here. you are know to someone and listed you are. who will be responsible for these deaths and how will survivor deal with them all.

-- i think pollies (suck@reallyhard.com), August 22, 1999.

Let's see now.

Many posters have mentioned that their friends and neighbors already regard them as some kind of weird because of their preparations.

Also, many of us expect various degrees of serious economic problems, some of which may occur before rollover.

When serious economic problems have occurred at various times in history, people have often sought to blame "scapegoats", and when the economic problems were very severe, the scapegoats often got a quick trip to the next dimension.

And along comes a post by someone who expects severe economic problems, proclaims "politico-economics" awareness, and, in effect, holds up a big sign reading:


And then, some of the other candidates for scapegoathood applaud!

And all this while smirking at the stupidity of the "sheeple".


-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 22, 1999.

Fruitcake Spotter, you're right on some things, but the overall post I sympathize with. Yes, I do think there should be waste disposal laws, although most don't do much more than slap the polluters on the wrist. And I think it should not be allowed for hog farms and toxic waste dumps to be located next door to homes, but it happens all the time, and the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the victim, not the polluter, and the government looks the other way.

As far as sexual harassment, I don't think any woman deserves that kind of treatment, but...I do think some women have used this law for payback time, and that's a lousy thing to do. Telling a woman a dirty joke, or complimenting her on her hair or clothes or asking her out, does not constitute sexual harassment.

There are good laws and bad laws. But it seems that the good laws, like those regulating corporate polluters, don't amount to much. But the bad laws, supposedly to catch drug runners, that would allow the government to monitor citizen's computers, and the bank's Know Your Customer proposal, crop up thick and often, like bad weeds. Sometimes it feels that citizens have too many regulations thrown at them, and yet real criminals rarely serve a full sentence.

I'm just saying that I may not agree with everything A said, but I damn sure know why he said it.

So yes I understand why

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 22, 1999.

Hey, I noted on another thread that Flint says he's gay:

I am gay. Yes, its true.

-- fLINT (@fLINTisfLINT.com)

-- a (a@a.a), August 22, 1999.

Gilda, you take a much more reasonable approach than A does. Of course there are good laws and there are bad laws. But A wants to tear down the system and throw away all the good laws along with the bad ones. And if millions of people die, well that's just the price he is willing to let others pay to eliminate governement. That's what makes him a Fruitcake.

Fruitcake Spotter

-- Fruitcake Spotter (GildaIs@NotAFruitcake.come), August 22, 1999.

Fruticake: Yes, I am opposed to zoning laws and building permits, etc. I have mentioned this on other threads: That if the government hadn't gutted tort law re pollution, Gilda would have legal civil remedy if the pig farm next door polluted her water or her air. Just like if they play music on pole mounted loudspeakers so they can listen to their favorite tunes while slopping the hogs without having to wear headsets.

But, bottom line, the likely reason that Gilda and the pig farmer live cheek to jowel is that there are too many frickin' people and too little GOOD land. (Yes all the right wing wackos say "look at all the empty space around." Well it's empty for good reason. No water, no soil, too hot or too cold. Or maybe there's TREES on it, which I hear are good for stuff.)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.


Well, civil remedies in court won't due Gilda much good if she dies of pollution before her case winds its way through court. Do you know how many years this can take winding its way through court? And how much money Gilda would have to shell out paying a $100+ per hour lawyer to have her case tried? And if she is fighting over a waste dump near her yard against a major corporation with lots of money to pay a team of lawyers, what do you think the odds are that she will have the financial wherewithall to see her case through in court?

Oh, and do you think the government should intervene with drunk driving? Or should my heirs have no recourse but to sue the wino who kills me? A lot of good that will do me.

Fruitcake Spotter

-- Fruitcake Spotter (lawyers@GetRich.com), August 22, 1999.

Fruity: You don't think Gilda is paying through the nose now, continuously, for a bunch of bureaurats to sit around and think of new ways to screw with people?

Re lawyers fees -- they didn't used to be so high relative to what "ordinary" people made. The only reason they are so high now is that there's an artificial shortage of lawyers created by state granted legal monopolies called bar associations. Also, the law nowadays is a morass (or just plain ass). The fees wouldn't be so high if it weren't so articially complicated. If the legal system weren't so corrupt, no matter that the corp has 20 lawyers. All the jury has to figure out is did 500 gallons of pig shit pollute Gilda's well or not.

Re the pig farm, drunk driving, whatever ... you're grasping at straws; typical response of a clueless, useless idiot. Go back to writing PR releases for Janet Rhinohaunches or the Organization Against Germicide.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 22, 1999.

Another couple of reasons it should be a 9 or 10:

"Feds Seek Power to Alter, Monitor Private Computers" Washington Post 1999-08-20
"The Justice Department wants to make it easier for law enforcement authorities to obtain search warrents to secretly enter a suspect's home or office and disable security on personal computers as a prelude to wiretap or further search..."
Note that later in the story, they get in the old "to save the children" (sob, sniff, snuffle) bit. Gag, puke!
Print copy, no link.

"Your Papers Please" -- USPS (United States Postal Service) announced August 19, 1999 that a previously announced extension will not be honored. Mail won't be delivered to any boxholder (Private Mail Box [PMB] boxholders at Commercial Mail Receiving Agencies [CMRA's] without a completed form 1583 after 8/26/99. Note that that is just a one week notice, and for a tremendous privacy invasion at that.

To see what this is all about, check out www.postalwatch.org

Why? How many have a PMB address (which by the way, must be stated explicitly, not just # or Ste. or Box) so they can have their mail order Y2K supplies -- food, gold coins, etc., shipped to someplace other then their residences? Why would they want to know your residence address (to be proven by government issued photographic ID only). The real reason, not the stated reasons like to "save the children" (sob, sniff)?

National database? Round up of people getting dissident or "hate" information?


-- A (A@AisA.com), August 23, 1999.


Just a question. If a drunk driver breaks the current law and kills you, what good is the current law going to do you? What recourse will your wife have other than to sue the wino?

No, I am not saying the law should not be there. But there are too many laws that are not enforced strictly. We do not need more and more laws. We need the laws that we have overhauled. And the only way enforcement is going to be possible, is to get off of our pocketbooks and pay for correctional facilities to house those who break the laws.

My thoughts (rambling though they may be):

As to restructuring the present system that we have. Who honestly believes that it is possible? Do you think those in power now are going to pass laws that limit their power? With our legislatures split terms, do you think you will ever be able to get the senate and congress to agree on a bill to make the needed changes?

Let me tell you why I do not believe those kind of changes will ever take place. When I lived in South Georgia, we had a sheriff that was a pretty crooked fellow. He was suspected of being paid off by drug dealers so that planes could land in the county and make drug drop- offs. He also had a severe drinking problem. One day this sheriff got drunk and was on Ft. Benning reservation, waving a gun at drivers while in uniform. The local news filmed this debacle, the newspapers carried the story. This happened in an election year. And guess what? You got it, he was re-elected. What does this illustrate? The fact that people are not going to act for change.

Sure, working for change is the logical thing to do...but then you would have to have 1.)a logical populace to carry it out, or 2.)the powers-that-be willingly make the changes. Sadly, the chances of that happening are not in our favor. Do I vote? Hell, yes I do. I make sure I get griping rights. Do I make a difference? Doesn't look like it.

My conclusions? Either people do not care how they are governed, or they like the way they are governed. Because, they sure aren't changing anything. How is it ever going to change? Catastrophe. Whether Y2K, nuclear war, or savage terrorist attack is the catalyst, I certainly do not know. But I am almost certain that it will take one of those things to change our government. The people have lost control.

-- Dian (bdp@accessunited.com), August 23, 1999.

This post angers and upsets me greatly. You may be an "old fart" but my five grandchildren and my two children, my nieces and nephews, and many, many people whom I love will DIE in a 9-10. I have had to deal with the pain, the awful angst, of knowing that this could indeed happen, on a daily basis. And throughout the day, every day, I pray for deliverance for all the innocent souls in the world, including my own. How anyone could DARE to wish for it and to say that he is going to try to foster it, is beyond my comprehension. None of us who post here is ecstatic with our present government and the rising number of restrictive laws, etc. However, to wish doom upon countless others in order to secure what you ASSUME would be constructive change is heinous. It is as bad as what you say you hate in the government, and I cannot help thinking that you ought to be ashamed of yourself!

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), August 23, 1999.

A "citizen-legislator" who goes to Washington to make a change is not impossible. Look at Helen Chenoweth. She is ending her term in Washington. She is not renigging on her promise that, once elected, she would not assume the job as a career. Despite cards stacked against her through the political games played in Washington, she has introduced some good, honest legislation to make changes her constituency wanted. She has spoken out on numerous occasions to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes.

Hats off to those that elected her. Perhaps the rest of us need to clean our houses of the musty, ill-fitting old coats that we send to the "cloakroom." The Constitution is intentionally structured to allow for non-violent political change and paring away of corruption.

Whatever chaos ensues due to y2k, there is no reason why communities cannot rely on the traditional American forms of self-government to organize and make good decisions. The pioneers carried these forms into the wilderness and succeeded in self-governing where the nation had not yet established. As an example, look at the miner's districts and the forms, laws and justice established therein. Many miners were lawyers and carried Blackstone into the frontier.

That is the key to America's strength, whatever the future presents. We have these forms and traditions in our historical past and our memory. As long as we draw upon them, we will have a ready-made way to argue without violence and make collective decisions that will present the greatest number with the greatest good, while protecting individual rights. Insist upon the forms! Don't let a local dictator, war-lord, communist, socialist, etc. introduce a substitution in the name of expedience or emergency.

My ancestor arrived in Massachusetts in 1626 and settled in Maine. Over the generations, they fought and died for the principals and forms of freedom our generation has allowed to be cast aside as "outmoded." How pitifull we are to let the fire go out on our watch. Store freedom in your heart and food in your pantry. Your children will be gratefull for both.

-- anon (anon@anon.com), August 23, 1999.


In any society there are going to be laws that piss people off. In any society there is going to be some corruption. Do you know of a better country than the U.S.? If so, I suggest you move there.

So you want to tear the whole society down just because its laws don't revolve around you. And what are you going to replace our democracy with? Dictatorship by A and a few of his enlightened cronies? Are you saying that you have greater insight into what is right for the people than the vast majority of the people? And your willing to see millions die because the American people can't be trusted with democracy??? How do you feel about the children who will have to die so the world will revolve around your needs?

"Oh, the children -- sob, sniff, snuffle, whimper." Barf

A, it is just this attitude the enabled the Nazis to exterminate millions of others to form their "more perfect society".


You are a loser, A. You can't fit into the system so you want to destroy it and to hell with any innocents who may die. If millions die, well that is just the price they have to pay to see your Enlightenment come to power. Will there be any mercy for the children in a societ designed to revolve around A? In you own


Let's face it, A. You are a misfit in this society and you'd be a misfit in any society that replaces it. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that any society that arises through chaos will be a lot more brutal than this one.

You are a loser, A. I bet you flunked "Plays Well With Others" on your grade school report card.

Oh, wait! My mistake. I don't know what got into me. I must have been delusional there for a second. I take everything back. Please forgive me, A. You are a true Saint and it is Society (and the people within it) that must be destroyed.

Fruitcake Spotter

P.S. You never did answer my question about whether an employer should be able to discriminate against a Fruitcake like you or whether you should be protected under the American

-- Fruitcake Spotter (Ais@disgracefull.com), August 24, 1999.

Dian, you asked:

Just a question. If a drunk driver breaks the current law and kills you, what good is the current law going to do you? What recourse will your wife have other than to sue the wino?

Actually, I would prefer to have cops patrolling the road to get the drunk drivers off the street BEFORE they go and kill people. Let the cops set up sobriety checkpoints on New Years eve, if that's what it takes. A would obviously rather let people get killed and settle things in court later.

You are right, not all the laws currently on the books are enforced. I believe some should be enforced more stringently and others would be better off dropped from the books altogether.

I'm not sure the best way to change society, but I can almost guarantee you that what we will end up with if we intentionally try to destroy this one will be much less pleasant for most people.

Oh, and beware of ideologues with axes to grind bearing promises of new freedoms. The Communists promised a sweet freedom of their own. "Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!" I can't say the average worker did very well under Communism.


-- Fruitcake Spotter (GladImNot@A.com), August 24, 1999.

Here ya go Fruitcake Spotter - an example of the sanity of your "free society": 'Crush videos' decried

Monday, 23 August 1999 23:03 (GMT)

(ATTENTION: note nature) (UPI Focus) 'Crush videos' decried SIMI VALLEY, Calif., Aug. 23 (UPI) - Actor Mickey Rooney has joined lawmakers and animal rights activists to decry what are being called "crush videos," a type of pornography in which women wearing boots or open toed shoes crush small animals and insects beneath their feet. At a news conference today in Simi Valley, Calif., Rooney displayed still photos showing women in stiletto high heels squashing a mouse, rabbit and what appeared to be a guinea pig or hamster. "It's deplorable," Rooney said, adding that "the right of free speech does not include crushing small animals to death." Also at the news conference was Rep. Elton Gallegly, who has introduced a bill in Congress to impose a prison term of up to five years for sale of the videos.

See also the Ship of Fools post by Kzensky. Just because A and the Unabomber seem crazy doesn't mean that you are right.

-- John Doe (@ .), August 24, 1999.

John Doe - I just don't understand why you posted that bit about Crush videos. Could you explain?

Are you argueing that this sort of thing should be allowed as free speech? Or are you saying there are a few nuts around who like this sort of thing? The latter is perfectly true, and is true of any society, anywhere. (Want a major laugh? There is a book (name forgotten) which lists the crimes and punishments meted out by the original Puritan court. People were caught and punished for such things as sodomizing a goose or sheep fairly often - in one of the strictest, most religous societies ever formed on this planet. Nuts we will always have - forever and ever.)

So I don't understand - are you mad over limiting free speech or do you think it should be limited in this instance?

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), August 25, 1999.

Fruity -- did you get real good marks in your government owned or controlled schools for "willing to swallow any absurdity we throw at him," "unquestioningly obeys any rule, regulation, or law we may impose," "shows great ability to not be able to conceptualize," "gratifyingly unable to reason from concrete to concept, and vice versa"?

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 27, 1999.

Anybody who wants to live in a society that's a 9 or 10 can do so today. Just move to KOSOVO or some other place ravaged by atrocity. Settle in for a bitter "harvest" of getting what you want somewhere else, please. I would like for civilization to continue.

Anyone who thinks we would be better off in a "mad Max" breakdown is simply not thinking things through. Lets say, for the sake of discussion, that EVERYTHING that was bad or not right or as it should be was magically changed in an instant. How long do you think things would stay that way? There are reasons why things are the way they are. And that same human nature would result in things "devolving" back towards how they are now -- just quicker thanks to modern know how.

There is no utopia to go back to. There is just a future to go towards. Having a peaceful society -- even one with problems and things not as they "should" be -- beats living in a savage "urban jungle" where the meanest thug rules. If you think otherwise, go live in some mean prison for awhile. Just "prep" by taking lots of vasaline with you to ease the transition, doom wanter. I don't like human misery. No decent sane person does. Wishing bad upon others and glee in seeing "them" get what they "deserve" is a pathetic pathology for someone to have. Get youself some professional help.

-- Anon (Anon@work.now), August 27, 1999.

To 'A' and the posters that agree with him/her. You have watched too many action flicks. Believe me, the hero does not always win or even survive.

I went through a 9/10 in Argentina in 1962, again in Indonesia in 1973 and AGAIN in the Gold Coast in 1974. You just flat don't have any concept of what happens to the general populace. After I got back, I found that there were NO stories about the suffering, murders and general mayhem that took place in these locales. The sensibilities of the American Public would not allow it (although picture of our boys dying in VN were considered 'news' and therefore fit to print).

Yes, I am a warrior. Yes, I have done things I would rather not publicize, (Heck, I would just as soon not remember them if at all possible). And you WANT a 10 just because you feel your freedoms are being strangled???? Man as I said, you just don't have a clue.

Do you know what it's like to hide in a ditch half full of stinking water covered with a fecal scum to keep from getting shot 'cause you're white? I do.

Do you have any idea what it's like to help a family bury their five kids cause some ass got trigger happy? I do.

Do you know what it's like after you hit the clacker for a claymore ambush on a full squad of men (whose only problem was the color of their uniform) and you are walking through the deitrus of war? I do.

Do you know how well you (don't) sleep at night? I do...every night. AND YOU WANT A '10'????

May God have mercy on your soul....because I won't. If it becomes a 10, I or someone like me will be your worst nightmare. Sleep well, my friend. I'll be waiting.


-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), August 28, 1999.

Guess I killed this thread with a reality check.

One more thing to add. In all the situations I have been in that resembled a 9 or 10, there was always SOMEWHERE to run to ( if you could just get there). This time, if it's a 9 or 10, there will be nowhere to run. The rest of the world may well be in worse shape than where you already are.

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), August 29, 1999.


It won't matter. They know. They've already got the bunkers. They'll survive, no matter how we do.

Listen, I don't want to sound like an old hippie here, even if I am one. The morons, err, Sunday morning newspaper readers of this country, won't give a shit as long as they get the weekly paycheck. Don't try to fight the system from outside the fort.

I know. I'm going to make a real asshole out of myself in front of the whole forum now.

Join me in the Libertarian party. Tell your friends. Tell your relatives.

Tell our current government to GO FUCK ITSELF!!!!!!!!!!

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), August 29, 1999.

Sysman: Are you another Don Quixote like myself? I recall your posts from when you started. Seems to me a well-justified sense of frustration has appeared along the way. :-)

A political party, to get anyone elected to a post of any significance, has to have a bunch of people voting for them. I'm a "fellow traveller" but I don't delude myself myself that the Libertarian Party will ever have much influence. Even if I gave them all my money. :-) Koch's (midwest millionaire) wasn't enough back in the first few national elections they participated in.

It seems to me that even if you could get every intelligent (and by intelligent, I mean pro-libertarian) person to register and vote, the number of votes a libertarian candidate would get would still be far fewer than that required to win, or even influence the winners.

Might increase from 1% to 3% to -- what? -- 10% max? Perot got more than that, and he is already history. And his party has no more influence than the libertarians.

This country started with a system in which the franchise was limited to a very few. And even from the get-go, it was downhill. Been accelerating all the while. (Remember, for example, they had a national bank -- like the Federal Reserve now -- for a short time, for a couple of times back in the 1800s -- but the Federal Reserve has stuck for 86 years.)

It is said that those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it. But I now believe that if only a few do know, so are they doomed.

I just view this forum as a "diversion" for me. Making any difference here, much less in the larger world? No way.

But, in case things DON'T go TEOTWAWKI, check out www.new-utopia.com now or after 2000-01-01 (actually I would suspect all of year 2000 -- not gonna breathe much easier until at least 2000 June.)

Non illigitimi carborundum

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 30, 1999.

Well this thread has been going for awhile. I still say 10. I want a 10. I don't care about your kids, you should have given them the proper instruction. I don't care about Central and South America, although I had to help fund that horror. Give me a 10. They will never change, just because of that, they are they, us and them. Like a rock I hope they fall. Just think, nobody will have money to feed their habit. Nobody will look to them for assistance. They will be proriah. I don't need their laws, I have 10 of my own I choose to follow. Give me a 10...!

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 31, 1999.

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