According to the Washington Post:

"Pope's Vision of Heaven, Hell Riles Evangelicals By Hanna Rosin Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, August 17, 1999; Page A02

"Pope John Paul II has just revealed what the tabloids are calling a 'shocking truth' about heaven and hell, and his revelation is turning into a serious theological sore point between Roman Catholics and American Protestant evangelicals."

***

"Heaven, he said in late July, 'is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds but a living and personal relationship with the Holy Trinity.' Better to think of hell, he explained the next week, as 'more than a physical place,' as 'the state of those who freely and definitely separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.'"

***

"Copies of the pope's speeches began circulating last week among evangelical leaders, who accused the pontiff of 'soft selling hell,' said R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptists Theological Seminary in Louisville."

"'My concern here is the temptation to make hell a state of mind, to psychologize hell,' said Mohler. 'As attractive as that may be to the modern mind, that is not the hell of the Bible. Jesus himself spoke of hell as a lake of fire, where the worms would not die and the fire would not be quenched. It's all very graphic.'"

I am still searching for a copy of the entire text of the Pope's statement -- not just a new article that excerpts some of it.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 19, 1999

Answers

Should we lose the fear of Hell? Pope redefines the doctrine

By R. ALBERT MOHLER JR. c. 1999 Religion News Service

UNDATED -- With thoughts focused on the hereafter, Pope John Paul II expounded on heaven, hell and purgatory in his recent weekly audiences. The pope's messages reached the headlines of major newspapers as he denied heaven and hell were physical places and seemed to reverse nearly 2,000 years of Christian teaching.

Heaven, said John Paul, is "a living and personal relationship of union with the Holy Trinity." So far, so good. But in denying the spatial reality of heaven, the pope neglected the New Testament teaching that we will have resurrected bodies, which will require a spatial dimension.

The same issue arises in his rejection of the spatial dimension of hell. "More than a physical place," the pope declared, "hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God." Nevertheless, the Bible speaks of hell as a very real place of torment and punishment, of unquenched fire and unspeakable anguish.

The pope's denial of the traditional Christian understanding of hell is one more step in a progressive rejection of the very real and very horrible picture of hell revealed in the Bible. The temptation to "air-condition hell," as one Roman Catholic magazine put it, is constant in a secular world that rejects hell as outdated and promises some kind of vague harmonic convergence in the afterlife.

In popular culture, hell has gone the way of the hula hoop. It simply doesn't fit the modern secular mind. As British novelist David Lodge once remarked, "At some point in the 1960s, hell disappeared. No one could say for certain when this happened. First it was there, then it wasn't. Different people became aware of the disappearance of hell at different times."

Though Americans poke fun at "hellfire and brimstone" sermons, you are not likely to hear one in most pulpits, where hell has been conveniently domesticated for popular consumption. In liberal Protestantism, the traditional concept of hell is simply denied and "demythologized." Among some evangelicals, the preferred practice is simply to preach the promise of heaven and avoid hell at all cost.

Polls consistently reveal most Americans believe in heaven -- and believe they are going there. Far fewer believe in hell, and almost no one believes he or she is headed there. Modern Americans are quite certain their democratic deity wouldn't do anything so rash as to consign their neighbors to eternal punishment, much less themselves.

The pope's most serious revision of the biblical understanding of hell comes at the same issue. "Hell is not a punishment imposed externally by God, but the condition resulting from attitudes and actions which people adopt in this life," he said. "So eternal damnation is not God's work but is actually our own doing."

John Paul's statements are hardly revolutionary in the context of modern theology, but his decision to make such a public revision of the traditional teaching is highly significant. Just a few days prior to his statement a prominent Jesuit theological journal published the same argument. Clearly, a message has been sent.

We should note that Jesus had more to say about hell than about heaven, and he spoke of hell as a place of punishment where the wicked are "cast," and where the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44,47). He also warned of the judgment coming when he would separate "the sheep from the goats." To those who bear his judgment, he will pronounce this judgment: "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41).

Evidently, hell is indeed a punishment imposed by God, and the dire warnings in Scripture to respond to Christ in faith -- while there is time -- make sense only if hell is a very real place of very real torment.

As several modern commentators have noted, hell would be horrible enough if only for the absolute absence of God. But the Bible does not leave the matter there, nor should we. Our attempts to evade the biblical doctrine of hell weaken our understanding of the Gospel and confuse a world desperate for a word of biblical reality.

We are rightly warned to fear hell and to flee the wrath to come. Good advice comes from John Chrysostom, one of the greatest preachers of the early church: "Let us think often of hell, lest we soon fall into it."

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 19, 1999.

A simple plea for sanity:

When the Holy Father says that Hell is "more than a physical place" does that not clearly imply that it is a place and more besides? That it is a place is his baseline assumption; he is simply saying it is more than that. Don't you see this, Steve?

Frankly, this is yet another tempest in a teapot. I was trained in one of the finest evangelical Protestant seminaries in the world and we quite matter-of-factly spoke of the doctrine of hell in just such terms as used by the Holy Father. This is nothing new. In this address the Holy Father explicitly reaffirms the reality of hell, as he had already done on in Crossing the Threshold of Hope. Why is there such a furor about this?

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), August 19, 1999.

I have not said there is anything unorthodox about the pope's views on hell. I will reserve judgment until I read the entire statement. I can only assume that the reason why there is controversy about the statemement is that people are seizing on the phrase "the state of those who freely and definitely separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy" and concluding that the Pope denies that there is a place of eternal torment for those who reject the Gospel.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 19, 1999.

But Steve, "the state of those who freely and definitely separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy" would by definition be a place of eternal torment. Hell requires no more active punishment from God (a "punishment imposed externally" as the Pope puts it) than this to meet the biblical criteria.

What horrendous punishment indeed it would be for the unrepentant sinner simply to, as the Apostle puts it, "know as we are known." How would you like to be Adolf Hitler (or even David Palm) and see yourself as God sees you when you knowingly sin against His Majesty? Then to be placed in that state for all eternity, knowing that all hope of redemption is gone for you? Eternal torment indeed, punishment, burning and fiery torment even. Truly Hell. A place? Well, I suppose so, if it is proper to speak of a "place" for disembodied spirits (then again, it is not proper to speak of a "place" in which there is an absence of God, so even Protestant theologians who take this all too literally have a problem.) But not the medieval torture chamber. A state which an individual puts himself into by rejection of God. God says, "Very well, thus you shall be for all eternity."

Let me propose that this is what the Pope means. It certainly squares with what he has said elsewhere, and that certainly should be the context in which all his statements are taken. And I find this quite orthodox.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), August 19, 1999.

"How would you like to be Adolf Hitler (or even David Palm) and see yourself as God sees you when you knowingly sin against His Majesty? Then to be placed in that state for all eternity, knowing that all hope of redemption is gone for you? Eternal torment indeed, punishment, burning and fiery torment even. Truly Hell."

Well, this is not the orthodox doctrine of hell. Hell is not simply the pain of being separated from God, although it is that. It is eternal torment for those who have rejected Christ. That the Biblical description of hell cannot be taken literally in all respects (e.g., fire & darkness are literally contradictory) does not mean that it isn't "physical" pain.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 19, 1999.

<< Well, this is not the orthodox doctrine of hell. Hell is not simply the pain of being separated from God, although it is that. It is eternal torment for those who have rejected Christ. That the Biblical description of hell cannot be taken literally in all respects (e.g., fire & darkness are literally contradictory) does not mean that it isn't "physical" pain. >>

Now you are pressing the Biblical text too hard. Where would you go to demonstrate conclusively that "eternal torment" is necessarily more than the pain of being separated from God? Eternal separation from God would be eternal torment. What Bible verse proves conclusively that they could not be the same thing?

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), August 19, 1999.

"Scholasticism distinguished a double element in the punishment of hell: the peona damni (pain of loss) and the poena sensus (pain of sense). The former corresponds to the aversion from God inherent in grievous sin, the latter the conversion to the creature."

"The poena damni, which is the essence of the punishment of hell, consists in the exclusion of the Beatific Vision . . ."

"Poena Sensus consists in the suffering which is caused by outside material things (IT IS ALSO CALLED THE POSITIVE PUNISHMENT OF HELL). The Holy Sciptures speak often of the fire of hell, to which the dammed are consigned; the describe hell as a place where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth--a picture of sorrow of despair."

"The fire of hell was conceived by [some] individual Fathers . . . in a metaphorical sense as a symbol for purely spiritual pains, expecially [N.B. not exclusively] for the torments of the gnawing of conscience. This opinion has not been formally [N.B.] condemned by the Church. The majority . . . believe it to be a physical fire, but stress the difference between this fire and ordinary fire."

Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (1952), pps. 480-81.

If JP II is teaching that the sufferings in Hell are only those caused by an individual freely separating himself from God and not a place where people are directly punished, his view is unorthodox.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 21, 1999.

Here it is:

http://www.ewtn.com/new_library/index.htm

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 21, 1999.

Here is the document everyone is looking for. Jaci Phillips

HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY Pope John Paul II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

Heaven Hell Purgatory

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Heaven is Fullness of Communion with God Heaven as the fullness of communion with God was the theme of the Holy Father's catechesis at the General Audience of 21 July 1999. Heaven "is neither an abstraction not a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Chrsit through the communion of the Holy Spirit," the Pope said.

1. When the form of this world has passed away, those who have welcomed God into their lives and have sincerely opened themselves to his love, at least at the moment of death, will enjoy that fullness of communion with God which is the goal of human life.

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, "this perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed is called "heaven'. Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfilment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness" (n.1024).

Today we will try to understand the biblical meaning of "heaven", in order to have a better understanding of the reality to which this expression refers.

2. In biblical language "heaven"", when it is joined to the "earth", indicates part of the universe. Scripture says about creation: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gn 1:1).

Heaven is the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God

Metaphorically speaking, heaven is understood as the dwelling-place of God, who is thus distinguished from human beings (cf. Ps 104:2f.; 115:16; Is 66:1). He sees and judges from the heights of heaven (cf. Ps 113:4-9) and comes down when he is called upon (cf. Ps 18:9, 10; 144:5). However the biblical metaphor makes it clear that God does not identify himself with heaven, nor can he be contained in it (cf. 1 Kgs 8:27); and this is true, even though in some passages of the First Book of the Maccabees "Heaven" is simply one of God's names (1 Mc 3:18, 19, 50, 60; 4:24, 55).

The depiction of heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God is joined with that of the place to which believers, through grace, can also ascend, as we see in the Old Testament accounts of Enoch (cf. Gn 5:24) and Elijah (cf. 2 Kgs 2:11). Thus heaven becomes an image of life in God. In this sense Jesus speaks of a "reward in heaven" (Mt 5:12) and urges people to "lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven" (ibid., 6:20; cf. 19:21).

3. The New Testament amplifies the idea of heaven in relation to the mystery of Christ. To show that the Redeemer's sacrifice acquires perfect and definitive value, the Letter to the Hebrews says that Jesus "passed through the heavens" (Heb 4:14), and "entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself" (ibid., 9:24). Since believers are loved in a special way by the Father, they are raised with Christ and made citizens of heaven. It is worthwhile listening to what the Apostle Paul tells us about this in a very powerful text: "God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:4-7). The fatherhood of God, who is rich in mercy, is experienced by creatures through the love of God's crucified and risen Son, who sits in heaven on the right hand of the Father as Lord.

4. After the course of our earthly life, participation in complete intimacy with the Father thus comes through our insertion into Christ's paschal mystery. St Paul emphasizes our meeting with Christ in heaven at the end of time with a vivid spatial image: "Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thes 4:17-18).

Sacramental life is anticipation of heaven

In the context of Revelation, we know that the "heaven" or "happiness" in which we will find ourselves is neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit.

It is always necessary to maintain a certain restraint in describing these "ultimate realities" since their depiction is always unsatisfactory. Today, personalist language is better suited to describing the state of happiness and peace we will enjoy in our definitive communion with God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up the Church's teaching on this truth: "By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened' heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ" (n. 1026).

5. This final state, however, can be anticipated in some way today in sacramental life, whose centre is the Eucharist, and in the gift of self through fraternal charity. If we are able to enjoy properly the good things that the Lord showers upon us every day, we will already have begun to experience that joy and peace which one day will be completely ours. We know that on this earth everything is subject to limits, but the thought of the "ultimate" realities helps us to live better the "penultimate" realities. We know that as we pass through this world we are called to seek "the things that are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God" (Col 3:1), in order to be with him in the eschatological fulfilment, when the Spirit will fully reconcile with the Father "all things, whether on earth or in heaven" (Col 1:20).

To the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors the Holy Father said:

I extend a special welcome to the young people taking part in the Forum of the European Youth Parliament, as well as to the St Vincent Ferrer Chorale from Kaohsiung, Taiwan, and the Taiwanese Native Folklore Group, accompanied by Cardinal Shan. Upon all the English- speaking visitors and pilgrims, especially those from England, Scotland, Korea, Taiwan, Canada and the United States, I invoke the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ. May you have a happy and blessed summer!

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Hell is the State of Those who Reject God

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that "hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself... Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".

1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life "hell".

In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father's mercy, even at the last moment of their life.

Hell is a state of eternal damnation

2. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez 28:8; 31:14; Jb 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).

The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.

Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged "by what they [have done]" (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will "weep and gnash their teeth" (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its "unquenchable fire" (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk 16:19-3 1).

The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a "pool of fire" those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a "second death" (Rv 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).

3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.

This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell'" (n. 1033).

"Eternal damnation", therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state.

We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan

4. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying "yes" or "no", which marks the human creature's freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God's love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a "yes" to God.

Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell  and even less the improper use of biblical images  must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry "Abba, Father!"(Rm 8:15; Gal 4:6).

This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: "Father, accept this offering from your whole family ... save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen".

To the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors, the Holy Father said.

I am pleased to greet the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors present at today's audience, especially those from England, Scotland, Nigeria, Hong Kong and the United States of America. I wish you a pleasant visit to Christian Rome and I invoke upon you the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

Purgatory

Summary of General Audience Address, August 4, 1999 [full text when available]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Following our catechesis on the reality of heaven and hell, today we consider "Purgatory", the process of purification for those who die in the love of God but who are not completely imbued with that love.

Sacred Scripture teaches us that we must be purified if we are to enter into perfect and complete union with God. Jesus Christ, who became the perfect expiation for our sins and took upon himself the punishment that was our due, brings us God's mercy and love. But before we enter into God's Kingdom every trace of sin within us must be eliminated, every imperfection in our soul must be corrected. This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory. Those who live in this state of purification after death are not separated from God but are immersed in the love of Christ. Neither are they separated from the saints in heaven C who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life - nor from us on earth - who continue on our pilgrim journey to the Father's house. We all remain united in the Mystical Body of Christ, and we can therefore offer up prayers and good works on behalf of our brothers and sisters in Purgatory

-- Jaci Phillips (phillips@velocity.net), August 21, 1999.

Uh, Steve,

Weren't you the one in another thread who chided me for holding up St. Thomas Aquinas over the opinion of a pope?

There has been no definition in this matter, therefore it is still open to theological speculation.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), August 23, 1999.

As my citation from Ott indicated, the majority RC opinion is that Hell is a place of eternal damnation for unbelievers, where they suffer may appropriately be considered "physical" torment. Now the Pope doesn't believe this. So he has put his opinion over that of the Church.

Also, the Pope says "Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it." So we are not even entitled to say whether there is anyone in Hell? For all we know it might be empty?

The Pope is progressively watering down Christian truth in order to make it more palpable to modern man. As one person called such theology: "God is not so mad and man isn't so bad." Take for example the Pope's support for alter girls, his almost total opposition to the death penalty, support for joint religious service with those who reject Christianity, & a liberal view of Hell.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 24, 1999.