I thought I'd try to break this out into its own thread.

Original material: ==============================================================

5. Has the child abuse charge been investigated and dropped?

these are some very big holes that we might be overlooking. The story has definitely tugged on my heartstrings and I would like to help. But I want to make sure that we have all the facts on the table before I commit to a specific course of action.

-- justme (finally@home.com), August 15, 1999.

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Exactly what part of a "child abuse" accusation justifies a local government in its endeavors to drive a family off its land? I've seen several posts swallowing this line of "reasoning" hook, line, and sinker -- as if to say that if they're accused of child abuse, then anything goes, and it's OK to run them out of town. Yes, I do believe I saw one poster claim that his or her concern was based on the *accusation*.

This is the sort of mentality that scares the shit out of me.

Remember the Clarence Thomas sideshow? Remember the nonsense about, "the seriousness of the *charges*"???

Folks, when we start tarring and feathering people because of what they're ACCUSED of, we are truly finished.

The fact that "child abuse" accusations have become SOP when trying to demonize anyone "unpopular" *should* be a wake-up call to anyone with two or three firing synapses.

Come on, people, really -- "Oh, well if they're accused of CHILD ABUSE then I guess I don't want to get involved..."

OK, back to Question Numbah Five:

5. Has the child abuse charge been investigated and dropped?

Help me out here, I seem to have lost the context. Are we talking about Waco, Ruby Ridge, Bois Blanc, or *you*?

"First, they came for the child abusers..."

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), August 15, 1999

Answers

Help me out here ! What can we do to help?

Obviously, everybody calling is not going to accomplish a d*m thing. Especially if you don't live in that county or even that state. They will just hang up unless we do it en masse.

Do they need a better lawyer? What? Give me a clue? I've been counting beans so long, I'm brain dead.

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), August 15, 1999.

No Ron you are incorrect

They went to serve the dad for building without a permit and then charged the mother with child abuse. Don't put the cart before the horse!

What do YOU really know about this case? You are not there. Have you seen the 37 acres? Is their land right up in the middle of everything? Where did they put the barn? Next to the road? Next to the church? I'm a paramedic and I see and report child abuse at LEAST twice a month. A few times a years I SEE actual children dead from child abuse. Personally I would rather for someone to fight a charge of child abuse than a child die from it. But then again I've seen how ugly it can be. Have you?

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), August 15, 1999.

"I've been counting beans so long, I'm brain dead. "

Finally! A tinfoil admits what we have all known for so long...

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), August 15, 1999.

I think we need more specifics here if we are going to be of help. The child abuse issue is relevant because it will help us to conteract it if we know whats happened. Was it homeschooling that brought on the charges? Too many trips to the hospital? An accident prone kid or something else more vague and sinister?

There is nothing more terrifying than the threat of having your children removed from your care. If this is happening to this family arbitrarily now then we have to consider what the govt. might do "for our own good" down the road.

What if you are all set with your beans and bug out bags. You know you are all set for Martial Law. Just grab the kids and go. Right?

However consider this truly looking-over-my-shoulder paranoid scenario.

Emergency is declared. Shelters set up at all public schools. You are advised to proceed to them immeadiatly for your protection. Well maybe you wouldn't normally go near a shelter except - well - your kids are in there. Under guard to "protect" them. If you want to remove them perhaps (according to the powers that be) you are not acting in their best interest.

Hey, last March people were calling me paranoid because I predicted a reinstatement of the draft and limits on cash withdrawals from banks.

If you want to control a population all you do is hold on to the kids. Or even just threaten to take them away.

Lucid and civil thoughts on this anyone? Flame me if you want but I won't be a damn bit impressed. I have read too much of history to buy the "it can't happen here" line. Just check out the treatment of the Native American population by our own govt and the heinous and callous way they removed children from reservations "for their own good."

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), August 15, 1999.

Once again River, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. History is something I think we all slumber through in school, and even if we don't, applying it to ourselves seems to be a difficult task.

We do need input from the Stitts on this, as well as some facts. I the meantime the powers that be in Michigan should stand down concerning trivial stuff like permits, fees, and animals living on private land.

Bob P

-- Bob P (Rpilc99206@aol.com), August 15, 1999.

Well, not off topic, but on reality. Remember the McMartin pre- school abuse case back in the '80's??

The perpetrators were all vindicated, right? Only FBI Senior Agent in Charge claims that he verified what the children were alleging about the tunnels under the school.

Do a WWW search on Ted Gunderson, FBI agent. I will forewarn you. If you have a conscience, you will be abundantly disturbed.

-- (mass@delusions.com), August 15, 1999.

I've skimmed over the Stit's family threads saga. Too complicated for us on this forum (who can't decide wether a subject is on topic or not without spitting venom at each other)to be any useful help to the Stits family.

Stan should bring this to the attention of 20/20, 60 minutes, Hard Copy etc., and let them sort it out. The story sounds dramatic enough that one of them should be willing to investigate and air it. The publicity this would generate would be a lot more effective for the Stits, as well as our cause for Y2K awareness. IMHO.

-- Chris (%$^&^@pond.com), August 15, 1999.

Our justice system has been disturbing me for the past 25 years! I sent the articles to a number of newspapers, church organizations, politicians and people in high places whom I trust to see this problem for what I believe it to be. I'm not done yet, and intend to bring this to the attention of as many as I'm able to think of. There's little doubt in my mind that various 'groups' militia or otherwise have their eye on this case. They do need to be selective with their causes. The current government has made it quite clear whom they consider to be troublemakers, and that includes any of you cowering in churches waiting for the world to end...determined to buy desert land and hoard gold, bullets and Skoal in your pickup trucks...

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 15, 1999.

Cut and pasted from the other thread:

Doubtless, many questions remained unanswered. Kristin, the oldest daughter of Michael and Christine Stitt has internet access through a friend. I have asked her to get online and keep us up to date as well as answer appropriate questions. I think this is best as personal decisions to assist the Stitt family or not assist them will be better decided if the forum members can hear things directly from the family.

Many questions remain in my mind also. One difficulty that I find is in asking the Stitts questions as if they were on the stand at a trial. I want to be compassionate and non-threatening when I speak with the Stitt family, yet there is much I would like to know in order to make a decision about helping them and also to what extent am I willing to make personal sacrifices. I hope, however, to talk with the township and others and get the other side of the story. Then, certain follow up questions may be appropriate.

I think a conversation with Olson would also be appropriate as he is helping the Stitts put together documents, ordinance definitions, etcetera (Christine told me as she did not have some of the documents that I had requested). In fact, once I have more of the story and additional documents, I plan to make copies and forward them to the appropriate news offices, their Congressman and Senator, etcetera. While it might be interesting to have him posting on the forum; this might also be problematic. I think a moderator like Diane or Chuck should make a decision to extend an invitation (or not) to Olson.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), August 15, 1999.

Right On, Chris and Will Continue,

Let's get some light on the subject. Tyranny wilts rapidly when exposed to scrutiny.

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (al@ready.now), August 15, 1999.

Child abuse is SOP in these types of situations - it's all explicitly evident in the Waco Rules Of Engagement documentary ...

The children at Waco were being looked after just fine by their parents when the real murdering child abusers (ATF/FBI and special ops.) came in and burned them all to death.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 15, 1999.

No child should ever be struck by a parent. It is not necessary to achieve good behovior. It is mental illness on the part of the parent from the time when they were spanked...or beaten. If this doesn't stop we will all continue to abuse each other. Child abuse is a lot worse than philandering. I, of course have no idea whether these people beat their children although I hear that the practice is actually encouraged by many Christians.

-- Sand Mueller (smueller@azalea.net), August 15, 1999.

If this was posted before, I missed it:

Bob-Lo Tatler, April, 1998

http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~bclark/tatler_498.html

The school needs help. Under present law, there are only two ways to increase revenue in the general fund: increase the pupil count, or take in contributions for the general fund. Island residents have not been increasing the pupil count lately. [Late news: the two Stitt children are now attending school> total 4.] The school accounting manual has a line for private contributions, from a philanthropic foundation, private individuals, or private organizations. Perhaps weUll have to begin soliciting donations to keep the school going?

And this, from their Feb. 199 issue:

The New York Times had a feature article concerning the Pines School last November 17, titled "Community Struggling for a One-Room School." There was even a picture of Lani White leading the four studentsQChad and Miranda Stitt, Rick Craft, and Michael WhiteQin the Pledge of Allegiance.

Al

-- Al K. Lloyd (al@ready.now), August 15, 1999.

Child abuse charges are a tool that the state uses to destroy a family it has targeted for ruin, for whatever reason.

It's insidious. All you need is a rumour or complaint of abuse from a meddling school nurse, or an agitated neighbor...and WHOOOSH, kids are in DCFS and parents are in a lock-up awaiting psychic-evaluation and court mandated training.

Scolding and spanking children are now considered abuse by many agencies and law enforcement groups.

IT IS NONE OF YOURS OR ANYONE ELSE'S BUSINESS HOW YOU AS A PARENT PARENT DISCIPLINE YOUR OWN CHILD. Unless we're talking broken bones, burns or broken flesh.

Psychological scarring is bullshit. I appreciate the whoopings I got as a kid. They kept me in the straight and narrow. A few of them kept me from killing myself, and a few disuaded me from commiting criminal acts.

You cannot reason with a two-year-old. Time-outs rarely work.

I know SEVERAL families that hold the same philosophy you do Sand that have children.

Without exception EACH AND EVERY ONE of their kids is an unmitigated monster, a violent reactionary, a selfish-demanding-brat, and completely uncontrollable. (My wife works for the school district, and I can attest to this personally).

Parents that excercize discipline, including corporal punishment, have the most well-behaved, loving and caring kids I know.

The violence and disrespect that is endemic in our society today can be directly attributed to NOT ENOUGH ASS WHOOPINGS when the kids got out of line.

Your bold claim that "No child should ever be struck by a parent" should be reserved for your own family, and not foistered upon the rest of us that have well-behaved, loving children that were molded and shaped by many types of loving discipline. INCLUDING spanking.

Spanking is NOT child abuse. Spanking a child to correct misbehavior is love. NOT spanking or disciplining a child is abandonedment.

And yes Sand, the bible is instructive as to the kind of discipline we administer our kids.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 16, 1999.

INVAR,

Thank you, well said!

-- sigmund (sparethe@rod.com), August 16, 1999.

Oh for crying out loud! People who are against spanking (Sand) make it sound like those Whacko Spankers are out there just whomping away while their ill brains are fritzing out. I was spanked a few times (total) growing up. My father would say something, and we learned that he meant business. He was never angry when he spanked us, and he always talked to us before and after. We knew doggone well which line we had crossed over, and it was definitely a motivating deterrent to poor behavior. I had cousins that weren't spanked, and yes, "brat" would be the fitting description. Even as a kid I recognized the difference in behavior and attitude, and those kids did not respect their parents and seldom obeyed them. Individual personality plays a big part. One child may only require a stern look and tone, while that and even repeated time outs will wash over another child like water off a resilient duck. Let's stop stereo- typing the people who believe in spanking and get some balance to this. As to the Stitts, it certainly seems ridiculous to be persecuted over a barn on a 30 some acre property. Not exactly the suburbs. It also seems to be harshly punitive to require what is being foisted on them by bureaucrats who probably have a bee up their behind over the loss of public school revenue. Whoever said in another thread to follow the money was probably right on. I would like to help this family also, but I think it is always wise to gather and validate information first.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 16, 1999.

Thank you Stan, Will and Chris.

Y2KPro, that's about what I'd expect from you.

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), August 16, 1999.

Someone who lived over 800 miles away in a different state accused us of physical child abuse. When those allegations were disproven by physical examination and by talking to the kids themselves, the social worker changed the allegations to mental abuse. All of the people in our lives, school teachers, the kids' Sunday school teachers, the neighbors, all of them were on our side and all of them were totally ignored by the social worker. Our children were removed begging and crying to stay with us. The judge in our case returned them, but we were wiped out financially by the ordeal and our children were harmed while in state care.

Child abuse does exist. However, it's just too convenient for a social worker to pad his case load out with normal people and avoid having to do the real work of investigation. There are no oversight committees to appeal to when a social worker decides to trash you.

-- John (JackJackson50@hotmail.com), August 16, 1999.

mumsie, I'm with you. I've seen more "brats" and genuinely hateful, destructive kids since the "must never spank" mentality hit the talk shows than ever before. My mother's justice was swift and merciless. She "asked" you once to do something, and a second time she "told" you not to do something, and the third time you were spanked. This does not mean that I was abused and had the shit beat out of me.

And I agree that different kids require different levels of discipline. There was an interesting book on this subject several years ago, but is now out of print titled, Permissive Parents- Violent Children. It laid out the situation perfectly. It all begins with teaching respect, and parents being parents, not best friends. The best friend stage is for adult children and parents.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), August 16, 1999.

Gilda:

Since this thread has moved off-topic from child-abuse to parenting and spanking, I'll add that I was one of those parents who didn't spank. Yeah...I felt that violence begat violence. Once I DID slap my son in the face, but it was because I couldn't control MY anger.

I never had a problem with my kids. I raised them on my own until deciding the secondary schools were better in Illinois and sent my youngest to Illinois to live with his father until end of high-school.

I think the discipline problem that you and others have seen with unspanked kids comes from inconsistency on the part of the parents, rather than a lack of corporal punishment. I think it ALSO has to do with parents not giving children responsibility at an early age. There's no reason 2-year olds can't do the dishes, set the table, dust, make their beds, clean their rooms, etc. I've had some good laughs at seeing crumpled-up used tissues lined up in a perfect row on a dresser after a room-cleaning.

Yeah...we missed an outing to the zoo after my oldest took a crayola to the wallpaper on her bedroom wall. I didn't spank her. I got a bucket of soapy water and a scrub-brush, handed it to her, and said, "Let me know when the crayon is all off. Looks like we can't go to the zoo now." They knew what THEY wanted, and they knew what *I* wanted, and they knew it from a very early age.

Consistency is the key (I think...based on my control group of 3). If you say you'll go to the park once all the chores are done, there are NO excuses acceptable if they've met their end of the bargain. If they don't meet their end of the bargain, again, no excuses to allow them to go anyway. I never nagged, and I never asked twice.

To hear my kids tell it, now that they're almost fully grown, my method WAS a form of child abuse, as I've heard, "Mom...please...just hit me or something, but please DON'T give me that look."

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), August 16, 1999.

There is absolutely no need to spank a child who won't listen. Spanking teaches the child that physical violence is ok.

There is absolutely no need to scream and yell and scare a child shitless with violent words. It teaches a child that such verbal violence is ok.

Actions have concequences, and that is the lesson a child needs to learn, as soon as they start to crawl. The parent must establish limits and boundaries, and enforce them CONCISTANTLY with concequences . No idle threats, the parent must act and impose the concequence. If a child has been parented this way since he's a todler, i.e. sent in his room for having a tentrum each and every time, he knows his parent mean business. When he's a teenager and is tempted to brake a rule, he/she KNOWS the punishment will be imposed, he/she KNOWS that the parent won't bail them out for their bad deed. Example, the teen borrowed the car and was told to be in the house by 11, no ands/if/buts, or the car priviledge will be taken away for 6 months. The kid gets home at midnight, the privilege is taken away for the 6 months. The kid knew the concequence and that there'd be no ands/if/buts. The next time the kid is allowed to get the car, he'll make darn sure he's leaving way in advance to make sure he's in by the curfew even he gets a flat tire on the way. Firmness. Concistancy. And lots of praises and love for good behavior.

I have 3 teens, I've never so much as slap their wrists, but they've always known we meant business. I'm proud of them. They are polite and responsible kids.

INVAR, you're an example who's parents were inconcistant and used physical punishment and verbal threats. The anger and violence you harbor shows in everyone of your posts. Even in your fantasy stories, such as the JBD Saga. This is not a happy and normal way to live, but the cycle can be broken if you're willing to be "retrained" with the help of a psychologist.

As a nurse, I had to say my piece on this.

-- Chris (%$^&^@pond.com), August 16, 1999.

We posted at the same time Anita, and you're example supports perfectly what I was saying.

-- Chris (%$^&^@pond.com), August 16, 1999.

Chris,

You obviously don't have kids.

You are a frigging moron.

And I'll thank you not for your nonsensical idiotic psychological evaluation of me. The fruits of my upbringing, and my ideology are manifest in my beautiful children, business and contributions I make to my community.

You have no clue to what you're talking about. You're just a meddling piece of shit.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 16, 1999.

Don't know the particulars of the Stitt's family situation, but i do know that all too often, if a family or group is "different" than those around them or society in general- child abuse if often used as a weapon against them. In my state, a christian community had all of their children removed by the authorities several years back- and the adults were investigated for child abuse. Nothing was ever proven and the children were returned- it was from what i can tell- merely based on rumors and gossip- and these folks were "different".

It can be dangerous to do things differently in this country- i know of cases where parents have been charged with child abuse for nursing a three year old, allowing babies or toddlers to sleep in bed with them, etc.

A friend in another state let her three year old sit in the car, buckled in his car seat- with the car off and locked- on a nice cool day- reading a book and munching on a snack- while she ran in for something in a store- in a very safe suburban area, car parked right outside the store. The child wanted to stay in the car and look at the book and not go in the store. someone called the cops on her- she got charged with and convicted of child abuse/neglect.!! she is now being supervised by a parole officer, etc- this is a 40 something stay at home middle class loving mom - with a criminal record now!! go figure.....

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), August 16, 1999.

I know SEVERAL families that hold the same philosophy you do Sand that have children. Without exception EACH AND EVERY ONE of their kids is an unmitigated monster, a violent reactionary, a selfish-demanding-brat, and completely uncontrollable. (My wife works for the school district, and I can attest to this personally).

I cannot recall ever being seriously physically punished by my parents. I consider spanking to be child abuse, although I do not support the sort of witch hunts that are currently undertaken in the name of "preventing child abuse". Please do not over generalize as to the results of "progressive" education and rearing; I am a product of such, and do not fall in any the categories mentioned in your message.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), August 16, 1999.

Steve, I only described the kids of permissive and passive parents that I have known or know personally. I have a relative who currently only uses time out, and those kids have been more disruptive than any other kids at family get togethers. Their "discipline" always drags on and on, and hasn't seemed very effective. The father is a wonderful father in other ways, and we have never criticized his choices in parenting. I agree that anger and discipline should not be mixed. If I find myself angry, I know it is time for me to take a "time-out", then try to deal with the situation. Parents who understand spanking use it very seldom. If a child draws on the wall with crayon, that is just a foolish childish thing and the appropriate response is to have them wash the wall. If a child was rough housing and breaks something, they should do chores and pay some kind of restitution to replace what they broke. If you draw a line in the sand, and the child puts a foot over saying, "Yeah, so what are you going to do about it?" Then a swat or two administered calmly works wonders. (And in my case growing up, very seldom has to be repeated.) My point to the non-spankers is, do not stereotype the people who believe that on certain occasions it is an appropriate and effective tool for discipline.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 16, 1999.

I'm with you, INVAR. This is typical socialist bullshit: characterize your political enemies (in this case, christians standing in the way of globalist state-socialism) as craven psychopaths, who beat their kids just for fun (or as some twisted religious sacrament). You can see it with the recent daycare shootings: lonenut=aryan nations= all christians = anyone who doesn't agree with this association. One nut pops off and we all have to listen to commentators questioning the 1st and 2nd Amendments, openly asking whether we have "too much freedom for our own good." Or the NPR bint who framed Littleton, etc., in terms of "the public saftey vs. our WORSHIP of individual liberty."

Soon ALL children will be raised by the government from the start - if they can take them away on a whim now, why not prevent all this suffering in the first place by never allowing parents to raise them at all?

Freeman

-- Freeman (free@large.ccp), August 16, 1999.

Child abuse is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone seems to have their own opinion. We have our own way of disciplining our daughter (now 6 yrs) it involves asking, warning, and consequences. The later being restrictions, removal of the 'privileged items', and occasional spankings. Consequences are always followed up with a quick talk or a long discussion as to why things happened as the did and confirmation that she is still loved and what she did was bad, not her. But this is what I wanted to mention. When we moved to Arkansas 2 yrs ago (from California) my sister-in-law warned us about spanking in public. She said, watch out, someone will turn you in. I didn't really believe it until it happened! After a behavior problem at a public laundry mat, my husband used his preferred 'first attempt' method of discipline---the walk and talk. He carried her out of the building for a walk and had a talk with her. Since she wanted to go back and play, she threw a fit. Within a minute or two there was a group of "biddies" watching from the parking lot. Someone called the cops. I had a cop asking me questions inside the laundrymat, my husband detained and being questioned by another cop at one of two patrol cars. Then I had to identify him as my husband. All this and he never laid a hand on her in a spanking manner. And to show you how fast this came down, it was maybe 15-20 minutes, start to finish, from when he walked out that door until it was all over. Just a bunch of over reactionaries. Now some of you whiners will say they probably thought she was being kidnapped, oh come on, get real. Besides, that group of women could have approached him and asked what was going on and was the child ok. Can you imagine what might have happened if I wasn't also there at the laundry mat?

-- Wary mom in AR (mom@AR.com.), August 16, 1999.

I was in child protective services for a number of years investigating child abuse allegations. I agree with Anita there is never a reason to hit a child. I also have to say, it is not that easy to remove a child from parental custody. Laws vary, but in most states a peace officer and not DCFS has authority to remove on an emergency basis. If a peace officer does not take custody right away, DCFS has to go through the county atty, and get an order from a judge to do it. Then there is a hearing with all parties represented. I guess allegations could be made spuriously but who is pressuring the judge to sign an order? It is too easy to say "Conspiracy" about this. All of the false allegations I ever got were part and parcel of ugly custody battles.

And INVAR, you don't know what you're talking about when you say there is no such thing as psychological/emotional abuse. The sad thing is that many judges also hold this notion and so kids are left defenseless in circumstances of extreme deprivation, even with elements of torture. What do you call a father who gives his 4 year old enemas for his own pleasure. Where does that fit in the law,can't PROVE sexual intent, no injury has occurred...read the law, do some research or shut up. I used to look forward to your posts. Glad you let your true colors shine.

-- (notthat@easy.com), August 17, 1999.

Are the Stitts children being fed everyday, do they have running water and bathroom facilities in the home, do they have clothing to wear, and is the home clean and free of garbage and debris on the floor? I see it everyday in my line of work. Dirty diapers strung all over the floor, cat and dog crap on the floor, dishes piled high in the kitchen, cockroaches and ants everywhere, the stove has never seen an SOS pad, the kitchen floor is a mud floor because it's never been mopped, the children are running around in a diaper that hasn't been changed all day, no shoes and no clothing, and their hair has never seen a hair brush. There's no daddy in the house, and fat mama is laying on the couch with a cigarette in hand and a coke in the other. It doesn't matter if these kids have never been spanked before or whether they get a proper education, because they will become what their parents are. This is one instance out of many that I witness on a regular basis. So what is child abuse? Obviously the CPS thinks this is normal and not a form of child abuse. There's more to the Stitt story and I hope 20/20 gets a hold of it because some real light will be shed on it.

-- handyman (handyman@nailingitdown.com), August 17, 1999.

What about the kids who get raped while in State custody? Anyone here spent time in juvenile detention or know someone who has? Foster homes? It's out of the frying pan into the fire. The State does an ABYSMAL job of caring for children once it "rescues" them from parents who spank or use harsh language with their kids. Yes, of course there are some real child abusers and that's who the state-sponsored child-stealers should be bothering, but parents ARE robbed of their kids for merely spanking them, it happens every day. And you people know it! You simply can't risk telling your child to "go cut a switch" as has been done for hundreds of years in Western culture.

OUR CHILDREN DO NOT BELONG TO US ANYMORE; EVEN IF THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TAKEN YET, THEY ALREADY BELONG TO THE STATE. WAKE UP!

Anyone see the PBS show "Precious Children," written and produced by chinese-american Mona Locke, wife of Governor Gary Locke of Washington State? It's all about what a great job the Communist Chinese do in raising and teaching their kids, and how we should strive to be more like these enlightened Communists. You state-sponsored child-stealers would have loved how teachers who've been taken in by Chinese government show-schools are coming back and spouting collectivist slogans to parents and administrators: "we should take the emphasis off the individual and place it on the group," etc.. Yes, a socialist America, with a State empowered to act as everyone's parent, could only be brought about by killing millions of unenlightened, backward resistors (mostly christians -ugh!- like the whackos at Waco), but we must think of the children...

Freeman

-- Freeman (free@large.ccp), August 17, 1999.

-- (WhoGives@shit.com), August 17, 1999.

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Notice that those who have supported the illegal (immoral and dictatorial) actions of the city in this matter have driven their actions off-screen, while focusing your attention on the unsubstantitated and self-proclaimed distraction created when "they" cried child abuse.

The power of the state in this llittle affair is shocking: a school job is removed because a family changed from government school to home schooling (hey - that saves tax money!), and apparently the teacher who lost their job (hey - that saves more tax money!) goes on a personal vendetta using their "good ole boy network" to harrass and threaten a family trying to protect itself.

The latest? Now, instead of increasing the tax basis of their property by raising a barn and various animals, the state is forcing them to destroy the barn and get a permit kill the animals. Thus lowering the tax evaluation and contributing unwanted trash into the local landfill! Trash that will only need to be replaced again.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), August 17, 1999.

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