Free Market Economy: I would appreciate having comments on whether the system of the free market economy is in line with the teaching of the RCC. I personally don't think it is at all. Thanks to all who bother to answer. Luis

-- luis gasser (l_gasser@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999

Answers

Very odd question as it is obvious you have not read the history of the Catholic Church which would clarify this immedialty. Go to Medicci era Italy.

-- jean bouchardRC (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), August 14, 1999.

Luis,

Normally, this wouldn't be the type of thread that would draw my interest, but since you asked for my opinion, here it goes.

First, I'd have to confess that I'd don't know why you would believe the Catholic church's teaching would endorse any particular economic system. I've never equated the teachings of Jesus to align itself with any particular economic or political system. The church in Jerusalem just after Pentecost was in a sense a political monarchy with Jesus as the King and an economic voluntary-communism with the voluntary sharing of property and food. Such a system works great when administrated by those filled with the Holy Spirit which was the requirement of those chosen to be deacons (the distributors of the food) and apostles. But with the world's political and economic systems not being administered by those filled with the Holy Spirit, I'd have to say they all have faults that lead to evil abuses and excess. The interesting thing is that while I am not aware of any TRUE free market economy that exists in the world today, those who are the closest also tend to be the most generous from a charitable giving perspective.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blaznet.net), August 14, 1999.

I think the fact that Christianity is inherently socialist is something that everyone has to consider.

Oscar Wilde wrote a very interesting critique of philanthropy/charity in which he suggested that any act of charity which re-inforced the relationship between the beneficiary and the benefactor was wrong. In an ideal world we would not need charity; it would be a transforming force and would eventually become redundant.

The world's richest countries are run on free market principles(with varying degrees of state intervention). These countries have only gained this position via technological superiority which has allowed them to exploit the people and resources of less developed countries. The wealthy free market economies may be the most charitable, but this charity(all 1-2% of GDP - how generous) is like giving someone's laces back after you have stolen their boots. Cancelling Third World Debt might substantially change the relationship between the world's richest and poorest countries, but this is why none of our political leaders have the guts to do it.

At times like this I am inclined to think about the parable about the rich man who only fed the poor man the scraps from his table... the similarity between this and the world economic order(of which we are all a part) is quite striking. I've tried to rationalize it away, but it eats at my conscience daily.

I used to think that the theory of evolution was compatible with Creationism, but now I know that it is not. A system of evolution involving progress through competition, bloodshed(nature is red in tooth and claw etc), false starts, mass extinctions etc is not compatible with a Creator who has some idea of what he is doing. But this is how the global economic system has come about - rightly or wrongly. True Christianity always struck as a reforming influence; something that would counter the scourges of global capitalism. It's failure to do this has prompted the various conflicts within the Church. Marx's critique of the Church resulted from it's indifference to poverty.

The Church has never been able to hold a consistent position on material wealth. Last summer a former employer bought himself a Porsche. He is a Christian, but had no anxieties about it. I'm not a Christian, but I would have a tough time justifying that purchase to myself if I had the money(just as I find it difficult to justify many of the lesser purchases that I make)...

"He who tries to save his own life will lose it" - does that mean Christians shouldn't use expensive moisturizing creams. I'm serious.

Matters are further complicated by Christianity's conflicting emphases on charity and individual responsibility. We are told to be charitable, yet not to take charity for granted. This has resulted in a dilemma for governments who see a need for social welfare, but don't want to create a nation of freeloaders(this results in "incentives" which run counter to the original notion of charity in the first place). What was the outcome of the Medicare program in the US? I never found out. No government has found the right balance between encouraging citizens to provide for each other, but also provide for themselves.

Economic interpretations of the parables only complicate matters - I won't get into that.

I've written way too much(as usual), but I think its an important question. I disagree with Jean's snap answer - times change, economies change, technologies change - this is something that has to be thought about all the time.

This is not an attempt to justify my own position on wealth/charity etc, because I can't do that. The way I conduct and justify my finances to myself is full of contradictios. Maybe one day I will reach an arrangement that I am happy with, but whatever I decide will always be open to question. When you decide that you can only do so much you admit to yourself that you can do more...

I think the answer to your question is no, but I don't claim that my lifestyle is compatible with that answer.

-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999.

David, thanks for your comment. The fact that you so plainly admit that you would normally not be interested in following a thread on such a topic, tells me that you are actually a good man at heart. In a certain sense you seem to be blessed with a child-like innocence and naivity with regard to this major issue that concerns all mankind.

I have come to the understanding that the global market economy is diametrically opposed to Christian teaching. In spite of all the warnings in the bible to beware of false prophets, heretics, pharisees and scribes, it looks like a vast majority of mankind, and not just Christiand or RC in particular, are follwing them without hesitation. The bible specifically warns us that those who will deceive people will come dressed in sheep cloths, but they are wolfs inside. Doesn't Christ say very clearly that it is impossible to serve two masters? It has to be an either or decision: either God or money. What does Matt4,8-10 or Luc4,5-8 mean to you?

It is understood that no church indorses any particular economic system, but the fact that not even the RCC expresses its consern and stern warning is defenitely chilling.

I specifically asked you for your comment on this issue because I wanted to show you how difficult it can be for us humans to tell god from evil and how much we have to try to make full use of the cardinal virtues in order not to be easily misled.

One last reminder to you with regard to your statement on "economic voluntary-communism": communism, as you know, is a relatively recent phenomena in human hsitory. Only after the age of enlightenment had the individualization of the masses sufficiently progressed in order to allow for communism to come into being. No ancient society could possibly ever have been practising communism, simply because society was simply not yet sufficiently frgamented. In some ways we are now fortunate enough to witness the individualization process in society having progressed to a point that communism is no longer possible. It has faded away with the increasing individualization of society (and not because of Reagan or anybody else). The important thing however, is, that the communist doctrine specifically excludes the xistence of a God. Therefore Jesus and his followers could not have possibly practised some form of "voluntary communism". Absolutely impossible. I would again appreciate having you further comments on the main economy/bible issue. Strictly no politics please.

-- luis gasser (l_gasser@hotmail.com), August 16, 1999.

Jean, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, is it? Not for me and you shouldn't subscribe to it either. It doesn't do you honor. Why do you find my question very odd? I suppose you have read what Matthew had to say. I fully agree with him. The global economic reality has become a menace to all of us, and the fact that we all have come to depend on it for a living, should be reason enough to take this issue seriously. Why is the RCC not warning anybody? Have you ever given this some consideration? I would really like to know your opinion on all this.

No, I have not read the history of the Catholic Church, neither do I see any possible connection between the Medicci and the free market economy. I am referring to the present day reality, not the past.

-- luis gasser (l_gasser@hotmail.com), August 16, 1999.

Matthew, thanks for your valuable comment. Your surely are a man of good will. I fail to understand why people in general and Christians in particular find so little interest in this issue. The bible refers to it all the time and does not stop warning people of the false prophets, the heretic, the pharisees, etc. It is so extremely precise in its statements on this very issue, that one can only wonder why there is so much silence out there. Does the RCC not consider such issues worthy of serious consideration? May be there will be some more comments coming in.

As to your question regarding Christians and the use of expensive moistrizing creams I believe 1Kor10,23-33 will give you the answer on that.

I am afraid you misinterprete Christ's statement on "winning or loosing ones life". Those who are warned that they will loose their lives can only be the ones who have failed to come to a correct understanding of the human nature. As long as the human being falls victim to the tendency inherent to its nature (I have come to identify this tendency with the original sin) to identifies itself with the body it will be totally subjected to the laws of matter. This failed identification of the human being will keep it busy with trying to satisfy it physical needs and desires. The more energy it puts into this vain task the more will new desires arise, and so on and so forth. In the end there will only be utter frustration and confusion and only death itself will be able to bring this vicious cycle to an end. Life will be lost in the sense that this path will only lead to mounting frustration and confusion. As a matter of fact the whole of the global economic system is based on this disastrous misconception of human nature.

Those who win their lives can only be the ones that succesfully identify with their true nature, which is spiritual, thus braking free from the original sin. They will no longer be subjected to the "law of the flesh" and they will find peace and joy in their life. This correct identification of the human being with its true nature overcomes the limiting dimensions of time and space and it re- installs unity with God.

I am absolutely convinced that even if only those who claim to be Christians come to put God's teaching into practise, the global economic system would collapse instantly. Why is the RCC not bothered about it?

-- luis gasser (l_gasser@hotmail.com), August 16, 1999.

Luis - Your line of though is very much likened to my own in this area. My referance to the Medici period was to point out the banking system of the time which has in part come forward in western society.

For myself I am amn who is termed pre-Antioch as I believe in the community aspect sharng all wealth so none go hungry. As a Franciscan I was touched deeply as a boy with St. Francis confronting the Church on this very same issue.

Sadly as we are aware the human animal is a frightened creature seeing to it's own needs. C.S. Lewis termed this sub-human love being the utilizing of another for ones needs and leaving a husk behind.

My life is very simple honestly for once havng been weel to do I came to see the futilty of it all. I very much agree with your observation on serving two masters.

I currently in a situation of being offered a good job with excellent pay and becoming deeply involved in my parish with a suicide/intervention programe which will pay nothing. I feel should the programe be implemented I shall refuse the job and carry on as monies no longer attract me. I hope I have answered you question (s).+Peace+

-- jean bouchardRC (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), August 16, 1999.

Thanks, Jean, for commenting. How about accepting the well paid job offer and donate the money to charity. You would then do your share in keeping the common illusion alive, that if only there is enough money available all problem can be solved. What a deception. Anyway, I wish you good luck and God's blessing for your work with the suicide-project. I am sure you are fully aware of the fact that a suicidal tendency in any society is always an expression of a society having gone astray.

-- luis gasser (l_gasser@hotmail.com), August 17, 1999.