OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The DRAFT is coming back!

Great threads on this in archives.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999

Answers

Caught this on the radio this morning. Something about not being able to recruit enough people anymore with just their incentive programs. Talking about a draft, including females. Where's that link????

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), August 10, 1999.

hey you two! gotta link?

*sigh*

Mike

====================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

Then close the doors and windows. Look for areas where you can feel the draft. Then plug it. This is critical for y2k prep. A draft would waste much energy. Wear warn socks and shoes, cause the draft is usually felt most on the floor.

-- warm and fuzzy (sweater@coat.com), August 10, 1999.

[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

8/10/99 -- 2:15 PM

Congress considers either to REVIVE DRAFT or to abolish S.S.S.

WASHINGTON (AP) - Twenty-six years after the last young American was drafted, legislation to abolish the Selective Service System is quietly advancing in Congress. But a showdown seems certain with lawmakers heading the other way by floating the idea of a return to military conscription to help the currently all-volunteer military meet its recruiting goals.

A provision to shut down the 59-year-old agency, which continues to register 18-year-old males for a potential military call-up, is tucked in a spending bill to be taken up when the House returns after Labor Day.

The House Appropriations Committee approved the agency termination before the August recess with little debate, which surprised many military-minded lawmakers - and the agency.

``There was no advance warning,'' said Lew Brodsky, the service's director of public and congressional affairs. He noted Selective Service survived previous tries to abolish it, in 1993 and 1995.

If endorsed by the full House and the Senate, the move would slash the system's current $24.4 million budget by $17. 4 million in the fiscal year that begins Oct. 1, providing only $7 million for ``termination costs.''

Abolition supporters suggest that, if Congress and the president decide to authorize a return to the draft, the system could be re-established quickly.

Few on Capitol Hill foresee Congress and the president reviving the draft. But there has been a recent increase in demands, particularly among Republicans on major military committees, for at least consideration of such a move.

Rep. Floyd Spence, R-S.C., chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, called the military's recruiting and retention problem ``a desperate situation that keeps getting worse.'' He suggests increased peacekeeping deployments such as those in Bosnia and Kosovo may force Congress to consider conscription in some form.

Reps. Herbert Bateman, R-Va., chairman of the subcommittee on readiness, and Steve Buyer, R-Ind., chairman of the military personnel subcommittee; and Sen. Strom Thurmond, R-S.C, former chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, have suggested a fresh look at reviving the draft.

For now, the Pentagon says the 1.4 million all-volunteer force is sufficient, although it clearly has been losing a battle to attrition.

The Air Force may fall 2,500 recruits short of its annual goal and come up 1,400 pilots short of requirements. The Army may wind up 10,000 recruits beneath its full authorization, and the Navy projects a shortage of 22,000 sailors. Only the Marine Corps, the smallest service that advertises a need for ``a few good men,'' seems capable of meeting recruitment goals.

President Nixon let the draft expire in 1973, and registration was stopped in 1975 under President Ford. His successor, President Carter, reinstated universal registration of male citizens or residents between 18 and 25 in 1980 after Soviet troops entered Afghanistan. Roughly 13.5 million men are eligible for military service should the need arise.

Any effort to revive the draft would be certain to run into ferocious political resistance.

Congress is close to passing the biggest military pay and benefits package since 1981, including 4.8 percent salary increases, future raises of one-half a percentage point above inflation and generous retirement benefits.

Lawmakers said the package should be given a chance to work.

``Congress has done its part. Now it's up to the military to do a better job of retention,'' said Rep. Ike Skelton of Missouri, senior Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee.

Re-establishing some form of the draft, perhaps with a new lottery, where some get called and others don't, could ``destroy public confidence'' in government and revive old complaints about fairness, he said. Retired Air Force Col. Paul Arcari, director of the Retired Air Force Officers Association, said the new compensation package will go a long way toward making military pay and benefits more competitive.

He characterized reviving the draft as ``politically unpalatable.'' Anyway, he said, ``if you do have a draft, you can't get the kind of people you need to work the sophisticated weapons systems of today.''

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a senior member of the Armed Services Committee, has speculated about a possible new draft but now has views similar to Arcari's. No longer can you ``spend six weeks showing a recruit the right end of a gun and send him on his way,'' McCain said.

Reviving the draft would also raise the issue of whether women should be included. Women comprise 14 percent of the military and serve in virtually all except the most combat-intensive units.

The move to ``zero out'' Selective Service was led by Rep. James Walsh, R-N.Y., chairman of an Appropriations subcommittee that oversees independent agencies, mostly to save money without making cuts in other areas, said Walsh's chief of staff, Arthur Jutton.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999.

8/10/99 -- 2:16 PM

REVISITING THE DRAFT

Number of men, 18 to 25, currently registered: 13.5 million.

Number of men drafted into the military for major 20th-century conflicts:

-World War I (1917-1918) - 2,666,867.

-World War II (1940-1946) - 10,110,114.

-Korea (June 1950-June 1953) - 1,529,537.

-Vietnam (August 1964- February 1973) - 1,766,910.

--------------------------------------------------------

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999.

Ask not what you can do for your country, ask how am I going to get mine.

-- cd (artful@dodger.com), August 10, 1999.

Maybe it's because kids don't want to get shot up for a bunch of wogs and political "leaders." As Michael New said "If I wanted to become a mercenary, I would have joined the French Foreign Legion."

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 10, 1999.

Ashton & Leska posted:

Number of men, 18 to 25, currently registered: 13.5 million.

Number of men drafted into the military for major 20th-century conflicts:

-World War I (1917-1918) - 2,666,867.

-World War II (1940-1946) - 10,110,114.

-Korea (June 1950-June 1953) - 1,529,537.

-Vietnam (August 1964- February 1973) - 1,766,910.

- - - - - - - -

Current: 1.4 million all-volunteer force [I wonder if that includes those in the reserves?]

I wonder how those figures compare to the whole population, i.e. the RATE of service.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), August 10, 1999.

Or maybe it's because the last few wars we have fought have been undeclared and therefore, unconstitutional. Or because the LATEST (Serbian) war was not only unconstitutional, it was also breaking the Congressional War Powers Act, the founding treaty of NATO as ratified by the Senate, the Geneva Convention, and the UN Charter. Citizens of this country have a duty to obey the Supreme Law of the Land--the Constitution--not the edict of a tyrant or a king.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), August 10, 1999.

``There was no advance warning''
This is just too peculiar, right before Y2K.
It's not as if the Military doesn't know or isn't preparing!
This is paving the way for a quick return of the Draft.
But there won't be time to train recruits or make it work!

Several threads pointing to this in the archives. Gotta wait til we have more RAM to be able to get into them.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999.

The US is over populated, this will be the goverments way of controlling the population. Think of it in terms of deer hunting, only the bucks are shot.

-- I see it this way (Iseeitthisway@Iseeitthisway.com), August 10, 1999.

Patricia- You go girl! However the only way they're getting ME is to: Drag me away@ kicking and screaming.com

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), August 10, 1999.

They ain't gettin me, no way no how. Patricia, read Queen Of The Damned by Anne Rice.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999.

Congress & the Military are going to use Y2K to have the weeples begging for the Draft to be complied with!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 10, 1999.

Honest, I don't listen to him all that often, but Rush Limbaugh once had a parody about something like the "First Amazon Division" -- and with PMS. Look out!

BTW, alternated definition of PMS: Perpetual Monthly Syndrome

Sign me "politically incorrect."

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 10, 1999.

"You see those guys on that hill over there, ladies? They say you look really fat in those uniforms. Besides, they have chocolate!" And watch the women take the hill...Seriously, women do have a valuable place in the military. That place is NOT in the front lines. And with a quarter-century of military background, I have yet to hear ONE Army woman with any military experience say how much she wants to be in a Dupuy fighting position (for many reasons). If our beloved Pres tries to draft my son, the kid goes to Canada! When Clinton was called he sniveled his way out...lying to a survivor of the Bataan Death March...and not only organized Anti-American rallies, but toured the Soviet bloc nations at the height of the Cold War, when such visits were organized by the commies. My son will not spill his blood down a sewer of a war in which America is neither allowed to win or withdraw from! Can ANYBODY say AIRBORNE?!?

-- Mr. Mike (mikeabn@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

Draft?

Daft!

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), August 10, 1999.

Wish I could say I was surprised. Its exactly what I expected. Damn.

Glad my kids are too young and I'm too old.

Will someone just wake me up when its all over? I don't think I want to watch this anymore.

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), August 10, 1999.

to quote a sci fi author whose name I have just forgotten:

"God is truly an iron"

this proves it. Onde helping of "Irony", to go (North), please.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 10, 1999.

If it passes, the program will include women or will face MASSIVE court challenges and resistance. Somehow, I doubt if it will pass under those circumstances.

Has anyone considered seriously why this is being touted? Overworked military (long deployments, no family there), overwork when at home, shortages of skilled professionals, and an administration who wants to get involved in every global hot spot...

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), August 11, 1999.

NOT TO mention said administration having tried to gut it earlier in its tenure.

C

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 11, 1999.

The only thing I have to say about this is, why the big push to early retire, and out right kick people out in the early 90's

-- grinche (Light_servant@yahoo.com), August 11, 1999.

More schizoid handling of major issue leading up to 2000:

[ Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only ]

8/11/99 -- 1:24 AM

Washington Today: Congress weighs rival DRAFT-related proposals

WASHINGTON (AP) - It's got to be one of the least politically popular proposals in years: reviving the draft to keep the military from losing its post-Cold War battle with attrition.

But that's just what some military-minded lawmakers are suggesting may be necessary if the services can't fill their ranks due to growing recruitment and re-enlistment shortfalls.

The Pentagon is dead set against any talk of reviving the draft, suggesting the 26-year-old all-volunteer force is a great success, despite current recruiting problems.

Meanwhile, just as talk is growing over whether to revive the draft, the House is prepared to take up legislation that would do just the opposite: terminate the Selective Service System.

``Congress seems to be moving in two directions at once in this particular case,'' Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon observed Tuesday.

The dueling proposals underscore the attention Congress is giving to the issue of military readiness and the difficulties the services are having in recruiting and keeping people at a time of growing peacekeeping deployments and higher-paying private-sector jobs.

House Armed Services Chairman Floyd Spence, R-S.C., calls the military's recruiting and retention problem ``a desperate situation that keeps getting worse'' and suggests returning to some form of compulsory military service.

Reps. Herbert Bateman, R-Va., chairman of the subcommittee on readiness; Steve Buyer, R-Ind., chairman of the military personnel subcommittee; and Sen. Strom Thurmond, R-S.C, former chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, have also suggested a fresh look at reviving the draft. But such suggestions are not receiving wide support.

``I'm concerned about the trends away from public service, both the military and otherwise,'' said Rep. Ike Skelton of Missouri, senior Democrat on the Armed Services Committee. ``The recruiting goals are not being met except by the Marines. But I don't' think that's a good reason to reinstate the draft.''

He noted that the Army had an authorization for 480,000 positions but was down to 469,400.

``That's about a 10,000 shortage,'' Skelton said. ``Do you really want to reinstate the draft to get 10,000 soldiers? I question that. We'll just have to do a better job of retention.''

The Air Force may fall 2,500 recruits short of its annual goal and come up 1,400 pilots short of requirements, and the Navy projects a shortage of 22,000 sailors. Only the Marine Corps, the smallest service, seems capable of meeting recruitment goals.

Skelton and others point to a military compensation package near final passage in Congress that would provide the biggest increase in pay and retirement benefits since the early 1980s.

That includes an across-the-board 4.8 percent pay raise to take effect next January, with additional increases set at half a percentage point above the rate of inflation.

Retired Air Force Col. Paul Arcari, director of the Retired Air Force Officers Association, said the new compensation package will go a long way toward making military pay and benefits more competitive. Arcari characterized reviving the draft as ``politically unpalatable.''

Bacon, the Pentagon spokesman, said the Defense Department is working hard to fix ``recruiting problems, many of which reflect the strong economy. ... The military has to show more imagination and hard work to meet its recruiting goals, and I believe we're doing that.

``We believe that as long as our all-volunteer force does its job well in protecting the national interests, there should not be a need for a national mobilization,'' Bacon said.

[uh, that's the problem, too few spread way too thin to protect national interests, especially infrastructure interests in 5 months] [so the corollary would be, national mobilization, hhmmm]

At the same time, he said, the Selective Service System, which continues to register 18-year-old men for a potential military call-up, ``provides a very good backup, should that be necessary someday.''

A provision to shut down the 59-year-old agency is tucked in a spending bill to be taken up when the House returns after Labor Day.

The House Appropriations Committee approved the agency termination before the August recess with little debate, mostly as a cost-cutting move.

``There was no advance warning,'' said Lew Brodsky, the service's director of public and congressional affairs. He noted Selective Service survived previous attempts to abolish it, in 1993 and 1995.

Rep. Randy Cunningham, R-Calif., has said he'll mount an effort on the floor to restore the funds and save the agency.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------

Do any of you think the terror-word "Y2K" will even be uttered in these proceedings? Will they debate with nary a clue? Disconnect from reality level red, level red, repeat ...

xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), August 11, 1999.

Purely in terms of populations (animal or human), and notwithstanding sociological considerations, the fewer procreating females of any species, the slower the population increase. As a drag on population growth, allowing high mortality among males is fruitless (pun intended).

However politically incorrect he may seem, Garrett Hardin provides a very cogent, logical perspective in his "Limits to Growth" as well as other writings.

Hallyx

"God is an iron." --- Spider Robinson

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), August 11, 1999.

Grinche: Why the big push to early retire, and out right kick people out in the early 90's ? To save on pension payouts.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 11, 1999.

Chuck - the iron thing was by Spider Robinson.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), August 11, 1999.