If the economy and/or society falls apart, to a greater or lesser extent, and you would like to offer some intelligent comments on how best to put things back together again, it would probably be a good idea to read some books on how such things have been done in the past.

Books about FDR's "New Deal" might be one source; books about the American or French revolution might also prove inspirational. No doubt the Greeks and the Romans, and a number of other societies and cultures from the past, also have some words of wisdom for us.

If you were going to recommend a handful of books to someone interested in this venture, what would t

-- Ed Yourdon (HumptyDumptyY2K@yourdon.com), August 05, 1999

Answers

Lots of good suggestions here. I'll start organizing them into a draft version of a bibliography, which we can continue expanding and revising.

Chuck: do you have a source for the Anti-Federalist papers? I must admit that I've never even heard of them before...

-- Ed Yourdon (HumptyDumptyY2K@yourdon.com), August 06, 1999.

Hopeful,

There is no monopoly on such discussions, certainly not here in this forum. By all means, launch a similar set of discussions on comp.software.year-2000 . If it's lively and substantive enough, I'm sure some of us will wander over and join in...

Ed

-- Ed Yourdon (HumptyDumptyY2K@yourdon.com), August 07, 1999.

Ed:

May I interject a comment (paraphrase) from Robert Heinlein's "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress"?

Let us not be bound by the traditions of the past. NO political solution tried to date has stood the test of time....

Perhaps the franchise should be limited? If so, what would be the best way to limit it? Intelligence, knowledge of current/civil affairs? Money or property? Military/government service?

Let us be guided by those many things that have not worked, and not be too eager to copy them into the future.

-- Jon Williamson (pssomerville@sprintmail.com), August 05, 1999.

Well, actually the first book that comes to mind is one that you recommended.

The Fourth Turning - by: William Strauss & Neil Howe

That book gave me much to think about. I agree with the authors that looking at our past cycles of history can really help us to make sense of where we are now, and give us bearings during a future crisis.

It actually gave me a more positive outlook for my young children's future. Hope that with vision, hard work, and direction the world can actually be a better place for their children than it was when I was a child & young adult.

I'm a gen-Xer, & the world (outside of my family & friends) has just always seemed to be falling apart. This really has never given me very much hope for our culture.

This book has really changed the way I view the world.

So, thank you for suggesting The Fourth Turning, & I recommend it to everyone.

BTW I think your book is a great idea, I don't know how much I could offer, but you bet I will be lurking ;-)

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), August 05, 1999.

Start with the Federalist Papers.

You know, this nation really was a good idea, at one time.

-Greybear

-- Got Freedom?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), August 06, 1999.

Consider John Winthrop's sermon delivered while onboard the the Arbella, "A Modell of Christian Charity." This was were he developed the famous "City upon a Hill" vision for the new land. He finished his remarks with this thoughtful comment that may yet prove prophetic: "If we deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword throughout the world; we shall open the mouths of enemies to speak evil of the ways of God and all believers in God; we shall shame the faces of many of God's worthy servants and cause their prayers to be turned into curses upon us, till we are forced out of the new land where we are going.

-- Susie (susie0884@aol.com), August 06, 1999.

"A Nation In Torment" by Edward Robb Ellis, copyright 1970, 1995. Subtitled, "The Great American Depression, 1929 - 1939" (Recipient of the Friends of American Writers Literary Award and still in print.)

One critique: "Especially valuable to..sons and daughters who have not -- at least not yet -- had to live through a repetition of that terrible trauma." ---Hubert Humphrey

-- Bonnie Camp (bonniec@mail.odyssey.net), August 06, 1999.

Ishmael

By Daniel Quinn We need more "Leavers" and less "Takers" in this world!

-- M Mireles (red_drum@msn.com), August 06, 1999.

Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand: the eerily prophetic novel of big government versus the individual. Explains why government is the enemy of free people.

The Lysander Spooner Reader: it explains why government is an unnecessary evil.

The Probability Broach, by L. Neil Smith: this explains exactly how the American Revolution went off the track and how it should have gone.

Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt: this explains why government intervention harms the economy.

For a New Liberty, by Murray Rothbard: this is a modern explanation of anarchocapitalism.

Alongside Night, by L. Neil Schulman: another dystopian novel of the near future, where an evil government is defeated by brave, resourceful individuals, who set up a free society based on contract.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), August 06, 1999.

The most obvious... the Bible. Nations rise and fall, leaders are made and destroyed, legacies of good and evil live on, and Wisdom for the Ages lies within.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), August 06, 1999.

And make sure you ballance with the Anti-Federalist Papers, which are MUCH harder to find but contain a LOT of wisdom.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 06, 1999.

Ed, Call the Supreme Court Gift Shop and ask them if they have a copy of the Anit-federalist Papers.

Thats where I got My copy!!!!!

Gee. You certainly are going to have LOTS of Fun.

Hope you are a libertarian! You certainly will be after you read the Antifederalists.

-- A Maryland Farmer (out@thelandofthefree.org), August 06, 1999.

Good call, M Mireles. Both Ed and I are fans of Daniel Quinn. "Ishmael" as well as "The Story of B" and his soon-to-be-released "Beyond Civilization" would do much to encourage new ways of looking at the world.

Garrett Hardin is my favorite eco-curmudgeon. His take on the environment is not like other "green" writers. His seminal essay, "Tragedy of the Commons" is available here: http://208.240.253.224/page95.htm So-called conservatives, especially, should check out Hardin.

"Steady State Economics" or any of the economic theory of Herman Daly sugggests a viable alternative to both Socialism and Capitalism.

The society painted by Ursula Le Guinn in "Always Coming Home" is the place that I'd like to live after a 10.

Glad to see you're feeling better Ed. I hope this project energises you and contributes to your continued good health.

Hallyx

And this our life, exempt from public haunt, Finds tongues in trees, Books in running brooks, Sermons in stones and good in everything.--- William Shakespeare (As you like it 2:1)

-- (Hallyx@aol.com), August 06, 1999.

1) "Hard Times", by Studs Terkel. This is an oral history of the Great depression, written around 1970. Basically, a lot of different people talk about their experiences during the period, including at least one person who still maintained that there wasn't a depression at all, just a buch of whiners. The Fan Dancer makes an appearance. Alsointeresting: a description of the US Army (led by MacArthur and Eisenhower), routing unemployed WW I veterans who had marched on Washington demanding their back pay.

2) The Sovereign Individual, by Rees-Mogg and ? Davison. Their political view is positively midieval, but they provide a provocative and persuasive vision of a future. One chapter is called The Death of the Nation State.

-KK

-- Kenneth Kutup (Kenny@K.utup), August 06, 1999.

A collection of some of the Anti-federalist papers is h ere.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), August 06, 1999.

Mr. Yourdon,

I just deleted the message that I was going to post here. Why should I use this inferior messaging system? Why shouldn't I get an easily retrievable and searchable copy of my own post? And why on earth do people insist on trying to taking the net private?

The subject that you are trying to cover is one of the most im- portant subjects that anyone could talk about today, and I'd sure like to participate, but I reject this forum. I will stick to comp.software.year-2000.

To Greenspun: Yeah, my email addy is fake. So what? Deal with it.

-- Hopeful (NoMail@fake.net), August 07, 1999.

Aloha Ed, from Kauai! I'd have to sugest the Celestine prophecy.(Expecially the chapter about the struggle for power)by James Redfield,and I can't help mentioning Illusions, by Richard Bach.(Don Shimoda came to my mind when I read your Syonara essay!) Anyways the change has to start within. God Bless you in your new venture! The Force is with you! Aloha, Justin

-- Justin Case (justin case@Aloha.com), August 07, 1999.

Also.. Our Emperors Have No Cloths, By Alan Weiss. "Incredibly stupid things corporate exectutives have done while reengineering, restructuring, downsizing, TQM'ing,team-building, and empowering... in order to cover their ifs, ands or "buts." Justin

-- Justin Case (justin case@Aloha.com), August 07, 1999.

KK,

I have a 93 year old aunt who went through the Great Depression and she doesn't remember it as all that bad, at least for her. The secret, it seems, is whether you still had a good paying job during the period. If you did, you saw others suffer, but not yourself. So, while it devasted a lot of people, others were only mildly inconvenienced by it.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), August 07, 1999.

Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman

-- Doug Platt (dplatt@ptialaska.net), August 08, 1999.

Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman -- Doug Platt

I would add The Market For Liberty by Morris and Linda Tannehill to Friedman's book.

-- Jim Morris (prism@bevcomm.net), August 09, 1999.

The Creation of the American Republic 1776-1787 by Gordon S. Wood is good.

The second treatise of John Locke's (1632-1704) "Two Treatises on Government," entitled "An Essay Concerning The True Original, Extent and End of Civil Government."

The FoxFire series.

Supreme Court opinions prior to the 1930s -lol.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), August 10, 1999.

For understanding how nature's complex systems survive and thrive I suggest "Out of Control" by Kevin Kelly. 2nd recommendation: "The Farther Reaches of Human Nature" by Abraham Maslow......These two books are about how to copy what has worked......Enjoy, Tim

-- Tim Johnson (timca@webtv.net), August 12, 1999.

Mr. Yourdon:

A couple of bibliography suggestions for your consideration:

FICTION:

William Miller, A Canticle for Liebowitz

This is a Science Fiction story about the aftermath of a global thermonuclear war. An Electrical Engineer (Liebowitz) founds a monastic order in what is left of the Roman Catholic church. The mission of the order is to preserve as many books as possible from the destroyed civilization. Liebowitz wisely foresees that after a millenium of a new dark age, these few preserved books will become the basis of a new technological renaissance. Unfortunately, it will also end with the rediscover of nuclear weapons -- but not before mankind has developed space flight to the point where an escape is possible.

If there is one lesson which all of your readers should learn from this book, it is this: Acquire a good home library!

Daniel Defoe, Robinson Crusoe J.R. Wyss, Swiss Family Robinson

The original survivalist stories.

NON-FICTION

Eric Sloan, any of his works

Sloan is one of the best sources for information for pre-20th century tools and techniques. In his books you'll find sketches describing various tools and buildings, and the text will explain how they were made and used. If Y2K ends up being somewhere around a 9 or a 10, this type of information may be critically useful for a while, because we no longer have people in our midst with the skills and knowledge to do things the way they used to be done in the old days.

MacCaullay (sp? & first name?) -- How things work -- also his series of books about buildings: Cathedral, etc.

This is the best author for learning about how things are put together and work, especially large complex projects using old-style low technologies. Along with Eric Sloan's books, these could be of critical importance in a Y2K 9 or 10 scenario.

Roy Underhill, The Woodwright's Shop (& sequil titles)

This is another good author for learning about how things were done in the old days with low-tech tools.

I'll have more for you later

Best regards.

-- Stefan Stackhouse (stefans@mindspring.com), August 12, 1999.

Anything by P. A. Sorokin. He wrote extensively during the Russian revolution, and researched the effects of hunger and calamity on society.

Colin Campbell: The Coming Oil Crisis. One of the biggest effects of a serious y2k disaster could be an interruption in oil supplies. Campbell lays out a series of plausible scenarios about the possible effects of oil shortages. He recommends some changes in oil consumption patterns to help alleviate this problem.

-- Dick Patton (patton@ra.msstate.edu), August 14, 1999.

To counter all the "good Christian bible thumpers" a good selection of rationalist (atheist/agnostic) and alternative (alternate explanations and other religions) works.

"Atlas Shrugged," "The Fountainhead" and other works by Ayn Rand.
"The Case Against God" -- George Smith (but out of print)
"Deceptions and Myths of the Bible" -- Lloyd M. Graham

Zecharia Sitchin's "Earth Chronicles" series. Many holes in his development, and he "converges" on Yahweh from about 2000 BC forward. But his historical analysis, INCLUDING material from the Old Testament, makes a lot more sense than just relying on the bible alone. BTW, most Christians relying solely on the bible, especially the new testament, are like a person who can play chopsticks considering himself a concert pianist.

"The Psychology of Freedom" -- Peter R. Breggin, M.D.
"The Discovery of Freedom -- Man's Struggle Against Authority" -- Rose Wilder Lane
"The Politics of Obedience" -- Etienne de la Boetie
"The Will to Bondage" -- Etienne de la Boetie

Annotated "Alice" ("Alice in Wonderland" -- Lewis Carroll) Martin Gardner
Annotated Shakespeare. (Need annotated because a word defintion then many times has no connection to the definition of today.)

Heinlein. Jules Verne.

Murray Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises (for economics)
"Blood In the Streets," "The Great Reckoning," "The Sovereign Individual" -- James Dale Davidson and Sir (Lord) William Rees-Mogg (Economic history analysis and projections)

"The Art of War" -- Sun Tzu (various translatations and interpretations)

"The Law" -- Frederic Bastiat
"No Treason -- The Constitution of No Athority" -- Lysander Spooner
"The Biggest 'Tax Loophole' of All" -- Otto Skinner (www.ottoskinner.com) (Do YOU have revenue taxable income?)
"Secrets of the Federal Reserve" -- Eustace Mullins

Even though Amazon books has hundreds of thousands of books, some of these may not be available through them. Try also www.loompanics.com (Their print catalog is much more extensive than on-line)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 16, 1999.

"The Case Against God" by George Smith IS back in print (paperback). Hallelulah!!

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 16, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr near Monterey, California

Here are the three books in my list for Governmen t... Next Time:

The Anti-Federalist Papers and the Constitutional Convention Debates by Ralph Ketcham (Editor), Ralon Ketcham

Thomas Paine : Collected Writings : Common Sense, the Crisis, and Other Pamphlets, Articles, and Letters : Rights of Man : The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, Eric Foner (Editor)

Tao Te Ching by Lao-Tzu, Gia-Fu Feng (Translator), Jane English (Translator), Lao Tsu

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), September 06, 1999.

William Shakespeare

One of the finest complete collections of Shakespeare's work. It is a must for anyone who would pretend to have attempted to be well-read or have understood the human soul. If you know of Shakespeare's plays and not his sonnets, you will discover a wonderful treasury here.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 06, 1999.

An amazing and deeply moving collection of poems by a homeless orphan and the great G.K. Chesterton.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 06, 1999.

(for above) G.K. Chesterton and Francis Thompson. Hound of Heaven and Other Poems.

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 06, 1999.

(just limbering my fingers now)

Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica (5 vols)

Aristotle, Nicomachian Ethics

Aristotle, Politics

Mortimer Jerome Adler, How to Read a Book

Allan Bloom, The Closing of the American Mind

Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France

C.K., Chesterton, Saint Thomas Aquinas: the Dumb Ox

Will and Ariel Durant, The Lessons of History

Francis Fukayama, Trust : The Social Virtues and the Creation of Prosperity

Francis Fukayama, The Great Disruption : Human Nature and the Reconstitution of Social Order

Friedrich A. Hayek, The Road to Serfdom

Martin Luther King, Jr., Complete Works of -(books, speeches, etc.)

C.S. Lewis, The Chronicles of Narnia

C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

C.s. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

Jacques Maritain, The Person and the Common Good

Jacques Maritain, The Rights of Man and the Natural Law

Claes G. Ryn, Democracy and Ethical Life: A Philosophy of Politics and Community

Joseph A. Schumpeter, History of Economic Analysis

Yves Renee Marie Simon, Definition of Moral Virtue

Yves Renee Marie Simon, A General Theory of Authority

Anne Wortham, The Other side

-- Stan Faryna (info@giglobal.com), September 06, 1999.

I have way too many to suggest, and more to acquire...(sigh)

For something a bit off the beaten path try any and ALL of the Foxfire Books....

I'm with those who recommended "Canticle for Leibowitz", "Always Coming Home"...Anything utopian (a misnomer)...if you can't dream it, you can't do it.

Music...written music,...shoulda put this first. And while you're at it learn to play an instrument and dance.

All Shakespeare, all Heinlein, Asimov, Bradbury, any medical books, horticulture books...Anything historical, as long as you don't conclude that the same old 'war and destruction thing' is the ONLY way.

Keep reading Lovelies....All we have is time.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 07, 1999.

If you are an avid reader, as I am, make sure you have some "escape" books of the genre you like to read. For instance, I am a major fan of fantasy science fiction. The authors I read the most are: Robert Jordan, David Eddings, George Martin, JRR Tolkien, Terry Goodkind, etc... If it goes bad and we do lose power and services, there will be LOTS of reading time available as there will not be much else to do, if there is no electricity, water or gas (I pray every day there will be). Stock up on your favorites now, and as new books come into print, buy them, but don't read them until next year. (this last thought is a major conflict with me, I usually read several chapters of a book as soon as I get it)

scratchin' at the bookcase...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), September 07, 1999.