What do you feel about awarding journals on writing merits? Do you think that it's wrong to make a judging contest out of what should be a very personal page? Or do you think it's a nice way to recognize good writing?

Have you ever won these kinds of awards? How did it make you feel? Did you ever lose one? Did that make you feel like your journal was less legitimate, or rather, were you encouraged because you were grouped with other journals that you find entertaining and engaging?

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

Answers

I like them.....except the ones where we, the "public", can't vote. i would love to vote for this site and say, "this is the kind of page that is real to me - no gimmicks, no one trying to impress anyone - just a regular, everyday person writing how she is feeling. And I enjoy it." That's what I really think about your page, Pamie and I love reading your stories and I'm happy you got nominated, for whatever reason. I just wish I could tell whoever it is that gives out the awards.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

I know we talked about this on diary-l once, and then there was such a huge fit had by all that I had to un-sub. So, I'll express here.

I think that these awards in specific are lame. In the past, some of the people who have been awarded by diarist.net end up throwing their awards in other's faces when we question how the damn awarding is run. I don't think that will be the case with you, Rob, and Jim (hopefully), but I think it is despicable that when we question who gets to vote, and who almost always gets nominated, etc -- valid concerns if we really have opinions about what goes on in the journalling community -- we get slammed by those who have won before and are feeling defensive.

I mean, remember what happened to Rob when he complained? Petty people got all defensive and flamed the poor guy. Well gosh, shouldn't he be grateful now that they have nominated him? No, I think that he should stick it out and not cave in to the opinion of people who were so adamant about being cruel to him in the beginning.

I have never seen the diarist awards as anything but a conduit for hurt feelings and cruelty towards others. I hope that changes in the near future.

Now, go and look at my journal and nominate me for lots of awards (hee hee)
The Secret Page

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

I really don't mind these diarists awards, even though I don't have a chance in Hell of ever winning one, because it's an opportunity to legitimize ourselves as an artistic medium, which really doesn't take anything away from anyone. Now, I didn't say that the awards do legitimize us. I said that they are an opportunity to legitimize ourselves.

I read the Columbine entry, and she brings up a legitimate criticism, by carrying the the thought process, of the way the diarist awards are currently handled, to a conclusion that was natural for her to come to. What do we mean when we say "Best," "Writing," and "Journal?" Well this is what I think it means, and how I think it applies.

Keep in mind that she only broke down her understanding of what a "journal" is. Consider the labor involved to break down each of our understanding of "writing" and "best," and multiply that by the number of journalers qualified to vote.

So the question, to me, is "Does the majority opinion constitute what's best?" If your answer is yes, well, that is a Communist view, which hasn't done Russia or China a whole lot of good in the 20th Century, and I don't see legitimizing journaling as an artistic medium.

However, if we all go off into our own little anarchies, understanding of what most of us are trying to do gets lost, and I think it's ok for some of us to take action to try and change that.

Instead of dictating values which can only be determined by the individual reader, like the diarist awards, or forming elite committees of minority viewpoints, which the Whitman awards do just fine, but may not provide a consensus of the community, I think it would be much simpler to vote on a top 10, 20, or 100, of journals voted to be the most entertaining. I mean, if you're reading the damn thing every day, you'd be hard presed to say that you weren't entertained. (Of course, this is another option of which I still don't have a Chinaman's chance of winning, but at least I will be excluded more fairly.)

I mean, fair is fair, right?

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

My take on this, both as a writer and as a fan of sites like Squishy, is that online journals should take whatever form their author intends, be of a written form (with whatever multimedia enhancements they see fit) and be updated at least semi-regularly. That's it.

I took my own stab at online journaling with .gina, and that was a complete work of fiction. But within that fiction was all the truth that I knew how to write -- experiences from my own life made their way into the story and despite its shape and characters. it really is a chronicle of my emotions and some of my experiences in Austin, albeit through the guise of a fictional narrative about two people who don't even exist.

The truth versus fiction thing can be important (I work for a newspaper, and I struggle with balancing my creative writing side at home with reporting at work), but I think in the case of online journals, it's about the emotion we can evoke, how we tell our stories and what we can create for the reader. I don't remember who to attribute the quote to, but it applies: "Better the lies that exalt us than ten thousand truths."

As for the awards, I think it's a little arbitrary, but for the people who win, it's a really nice thing. But like any award, the danger is in taking it too seriously and letting it get in the way of the work itself.

o.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

I understand Columbine's point when she talks about pamie's journal being exagerated, but COME ON. When Pamie's being funny, you know she's being funny. It's not like the lines between what's really happened and what was stretched are -that- blurry.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

I think some people take their journals way too seriously.

I see the Diarist.net awards as a way for those of us who write a journal, and know the trials and rewards of such, to recognize those who we feel do it well. I don't think it's necessary to deconstruct the words "best" and "writing" for me to say which journal I look forward to reading the most when I fire up my browser.

I definitely don't think truth or fiction comes into play at all. It's the web. For all we know, Rob is a 600 lb. woman who lives in Norway. Unless you know the person writing in real life, you have no way of knowing how much of their journal is truth and how much is fiction. So I don't think someone like Jim Valvis or Pamie should be punished because their journal is ostensibly more "fictional" than others. The category isn't "Best Truthful Journal".

I haven't been nominated for an award, and frankly, I don't care. It would be nice, I suppose, but it doesn't ruin my day. I really like getting e-mails from readers more, I think. Of course, if I ever did get nominated, I'd probably rescind this whole thing!

I don't get the people who are complaining about being nominated, either. You struck a particular chord in your readers, and they responded in a certain way. Perhaps it was not the way you intended. But are you writing for yourself, or for your readers? Probably a combination of the two, but if it wasn't at least partly for yourself, you wouldn't put the damn thing online.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

I am "just" a fan of journals....diaries...whatEVER. Not a writer. I'm just too fricken lazy to write my own, I guess.....or worried that my oh so charmed life would bore people to death...take your pick. I read 2 journals on a regular basis...and this is one of them. So because you're a comedian, funny things don't really happen to you? You go around making all this stuff up. Ummmm, ok. Could this person be a little bit jealous? Seems that way to me....I could be wrong. That's rare, but I guess I could be. =)

Keep doing things the way you've been doing them, hon....it's about YOU and not someone else's opinion of what a diary/journal/whatEVER should be. I've lead lots of people to "squishy".....and we all love it. I've "lead" them....oh geez...that sounded bad. Oh well....you know what I meant. You crack me up on a daily basis....embellished or not. Lying, my ass.

I think I need a drink.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

Oops!

I just realized that that Chinaman's chance comment I made before was really, really inappropriate. It just occurred to me that there are meanings that could be inferred from it which I had no intention of implying (as opposed to every other day in my life). It's just I was working on an entry at the time and my rant mode carried over, outside of context.

Sorry.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

As one of the journalers who complained, I'd like to speak up on our behalf -- and especially Chuck's behalf, since he's the only other person I know of who complained. I really did think it was dreadful and unbelievable that someone nominated his father's day entry as "best comedic entry." He took the high road, and conceded that a writer who brings out the wrong reaction has only himself to blame, but I think he was blaming himself too much. Anyone who could read that entry as comedy is an insensitive idiot.

As for me, I think it's insane for a journal that's less than a year old and lasted only seven months to be nominated for the legacy award when there are people who've been doing fantastic work out here for four years. In fact, it pisses me off because it makes me think that there is some truth to the idea that the same people just get nominated for everything. I can't see the nomination as a big honor for me, because people must have chosen me out of habit -- if they'd put any thought into what the award actually meant, they'd have voted for Diane or Renee or Shelly or the Gus or Nancy or any of several dozen other people.

That said, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with awards. I'm just not terribly impressed with how these particular ones were chosen.

I like your definition of "journal," by the way, Pamie. In the writing class I just took, the instructor pointed out that a real writer is basically incapable of writing the whole truth and nothing but the truth -- if you're a writer at heart, you're always going to be putting your own gloss on things.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 1999

The reason why I like Pamie's, Georgina's, Kymm's, Beth's journals is because they're interesting and varied - I find virtually all other journals a big old self-indulgent load of rot. So many journal writers seem to be depressed, and they never seem to figure out that by constantly bemoaning how miserable and depressed they are, they feed it and keep it going. And it's boring to read.

I've posted this on Beth's forum - I think good journal writers know they're good because of their reader numbers and the feedback they receive, and so surely an award is irrelevant.

I think the fact that these awards exclude non-journal writers invalidates them instantly. For 'peer group recognition' I'd read 'mutual back-slap'. It's all a bit high school for me.

Pamie - what would be of more value to you - one award from your 'peers', or 100 emails from random readers who have enjoyed your work?

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

Beth, I agree with you on Chuck's entry. And I should note that other people have complained to me, but it was done via private e-mail, not in their journal, so I don't feel right about naming names. I realize that sounds like a huge cop-out, but I wanted to point out that I wasn't only talking about the two of you.

I understand what you are saying about feeling that a recent, relatively short-lived journal being nominated for a legacy award seems to invalidate the work that others who've been around longer have done. But I went back and re-read the description of the Legacy Award, and I still think IYSHSH qualifies.

In thinking about it, I guess it's largely a matter of perspective. Someone who has been keeping a journal for 3 or 4 years may disagree with me. I've only been doing it for nearly 6 months, and reading journals for about 9. IYSHSH was the 3rd journal I read, after Pamie and Kymm. So, I'm coming at it from a totally different viewpoint. I still say that something you wrote struck a chord with enough people that you were nominated. And that IYSHSH wasn't necessarily nominated out of habit.

I think there is a sameness to the awards thus far, though. But I think that could change - it's only the second round of nominations, and if the same sites keep getting nominated time after time, people will get bored and quit voting.

Is the process used the best way to bestow an award? That's a different discussion entirely, and one I'm not prepared to get into at 4 a.m. But I'm interested to hear what others, who have had more sleep, think. Would reader nominations and voting work? How would that be different than journaler nominations and voting?

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

Mmk. writing isn't easy. even when your good at it. writing a sentence that expresses a moment of feeling takes process, thought, imagination and the disipline to actually touch the keyboard or put lead to paper. either way you have created something. now there are those who are proud of ther accomplishment ( and rightfully so) who then band together to share their feeling with those inbued with the same. mabey they now feel like they can add to theri circle or condescend to lift another writer up to their "feeling"- whatever. the point is they aren't doing it maliciously, nor will it chsange the opinoins of those who already appreciate the material without the need to endow it with public praise. one does not have to cancel out the other. infact an award is its own because it may cause in interested bystander to pause read and appreciate.( and why do we write? why do we act? why do we create? ) And perhaps h/s will appreciate it in a quiet profound and private way that allows hm/hr to pick up hs/hr pencil and create. Its just an award. a thought of appreciation for a creation and it will follow those who seek it. jess

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

I looked over Columbine's truth/lies in journals entry, and it made me think of a story I heard about Picasso. It was after WWII and an American GI was visiting him. The GI told him that he couldn't appreciate Picasso's artwork because it wasn't true to life.

Picasso asked the GI if he had a sweetheart back in the States, and if he had a picture if her. The GI showed Picasso a wallet-sized picture, and Picasso asked, "Is she really as small as that?"

That's a story I've always been able to relate to, so Columbine's criticism of truth in journals didn't really make sense to me, concerning Jim and Pamie's journals. It would never have occurred to me to read those works, and think for a second that the writer's weren't being true to their experiences.

I also think that her statement that Pamie was a comedian at heart was not accurate. I don't think anyone is a comedian at heart. I think she's confusing style for substance, and confusing the menu with the meal.

This isn't to say that I don't think Columbine writes a good journal. I just disagree, because, I think, because her brain operates at a different level. Columbine, as far as I can tell, thinks on a level of sensation, with all the fancy-schmansy Latin musical references and hoity-toity Louis XIV Aristo-images, and Pamie, I think, works more from intuition, or as we like to refer in the forum, our inner voice, and the humor in her journal is an outlet for that, and not an end in itself.

(This is part of why I was thinking that the specifics in the diarist awards need to be loosened up. To allow for diversity.)

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

What is the addy to Columbine's article? I am so not up to date with all of these journals. could someone fill me in on it??

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

http://www.inu.or g/scherzi/199907/entry41.htm

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

"Fancy-schmancy," Mike? Oh, you'll pay for that. You know how sensitive I am to charges of elitism ... everything else was acceptable, but that stung.

Anyway, the entry referred to is at http://www.inu.org/scherzi/199907/entry41.htm ... but take it with a grain of salt; I am probably going to write another that amends it today, in the face of Beth's comments and Pamie's and an absolutely lovely email I got from Jim Valvis. (No word from Rob, who is the first person I expected to hear from. Maybe I finally drove him over the edge and he's no longer speaking to me.)

Anyway, my comments about the differences between journals and diaries, and the inadvisability of holding a popularity contest, still stand. I still think that a contest like this encourages the writers to write things they think people will want to read, when what they SHOULD be doing is writing what they want to WRITE.

But as someone who's currently revising her novel because she's had the fun of writing it and now she wants to fine-tune it to make it more palatable to other humans ... I'm not sure I can fire the first shot about being true to one's concept. On the other hand, that's a NOVEL - that's pay copy. I wouldn't tune a journal entry to make it more interesting to the audience.

This is not the same as the reality vs. embellishment issue. Of COURSE Pamie embellishes and of course you can tell when she's doing it and that's one of the reasons we love her. My error was in thinking, "Gee, it's got to be all truth, all the time ..." which is a good standard for a DIARY (see my comments on the distinction) but not necessarily for a JOURNAL. Heck, even I wouldn't pass my own rule; I put short stories and fairy tales in my journal entries occasionally.

So, box score: I completely retract the "making it up" part, am backing down somewhat on the "playing to the audience" part ... but STILL think the awards are a bad idea. And since I was a finalist, don't assume that was just sour grapes.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

Yeah, but you were a finalist in the "weirdos with journals" category, so it could still be sour grapes. ;-) Just like my complaints could be sour grapes because I was just a finalist in the "aren't you dead yet?" category.

The foregoing was a joke. Settle down.

My last word on the legacy award: think of it this way. If there were a special "legacy" academy award to be chosen by popular vote, and the nominees were Titanic, Shakespeare in Love, and The English Patient, you wouldn't think much of the voting process, would you?

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

Both Mike and I find my entry as a finalist in the romantic category outrageously hilarious. When I asked him what he remembered about the day, he responded, "It was really cold and you were in a huff because you didn't want to be late in seeing the Matrix."

I'm flattered that someone would like my entry so much that they would nominate it for something, but I don't think it has any of the qualities that I would apply to "romantic".

Mike and I are very un-romantic.‰

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

You know, if the category HAD been "weirdos with journals," I'd probably have liked that :) I am indeed a weirdo with a journal, but experimental? I guess "experimental" to me implies that you're really pushing the limits of what a journal is, like if you put up a picture instead of an entry every day, or if you have some fancy multimedia claptrap ... or if you post a piece of fiction every day ... to me Jim Valvis' pages are an "experimental journal."

Anyway, now that I've finished an entry (http://www.inu.org/scherzi/199908/entry3.htm) with my recantation and clarification and all that, hopefully I can let the matter rest forever. Because I'm pretty sure my readers are tired of the subject.

(Ooops! I just took the readers' preferences into account, didn't I? So much for integrity of concept again :)

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

I think the Academy Awards present an excellent parallel in many ways. We can't vote on them -- only moviemakers can.

Remember that Cary Grant never won an Oscar. Nor did Howard Hawks.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

To answer Jackie's question-- nothing can replace the great e-mails that I get every day from people around the world sharing their stories because I've shared mine.

But what we are doing here is writing for an audience. It's for ourselves first and foremost, but by putting it online we are creating an audience. We answer e-mail-- we create an audience.

I do think there should be a reader's choice award as well. There's a whole lot of readers out there that don't keep journals. But if there were one, then I think you'd have a bigger chance of people shouting "popularity contest."

I've never been on diary-L. I don't know most of the voting panel on an e-mail basis. I've never won a whitman. I am flattered that I was nominated, because I'm glad you guys like my writing.

I don't think that journals are in competition in this thing like-- Hey, who's got a better or more interesting life. I think this is a way to say "Here are some great journals. Which of these do you like best?" "This particular entry really touched me. Thank you for writing it."

If people start writing their journals to try and win awards, then most likely the journal will lose its readership. It will stop being honest. And that's what we love most about these journals, isn't it? The fact that you feel like you know these people through the words they use to tell their stories.

I wish that these awards didn't cause such a controversy. I really do.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

Mike and Columbine - thank you for filling me in.

Also, I don't believe Pamie would ever write anything just to please us. I mean come on, she even writes when she doesn't have anything to say. I love reading about Taylor and Lillith and the restaraunt tales with her and Eric "the love God" to all of the little girls.

I know it seems like we demand a lot of you , Pamie, but I think we all would rather have you write for you anyway. I know I enjoy you for you.

And I agree about these stupid awards causing such controversy.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

Geez, Columbine, when I called you fancy-schmansy, I must have been looking at Sir Charles Grandiose by mistake! Why, you're not like that at all! I'd better ring the maid to clean this egg from my face.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

Columbine-

Personally, I don't think studying Latin roots is a good method of determining the inherent meaning of anything, unless you happen to be a doctor or a mushroom gatherer (although I do think you need to know Latin to be aware that "day" is the root of "diary," unless you're in the habit of dropping the "i"s and "r"s from words). However, as I'm sure you're aware, and intend to inform your readers immediately (or "instanter," if you prefer), "journal" has exactly the same Latin root as "diary." Perhaps that is why the words are almost universally used as synonyms. Of course, this doesn't detract from what seemed to be the main point of your entry: that you, like the nominating judges, regard some journals more favorably than others. So do I. And if you happen to come across a revealing Latin root for "personal preference," by all means, let me know.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

I'll just excerpt my journal entry for today:

Do these awards turn journaling into a mean-spirited popularity contest? Are the diarist.net awards... dare I say it... bad?

I started keeping an online journal for reasons of my own. I wanted to be a part of the community. I wanted to keep a record of my life. I wanted to see if I could do it. I wanted the challenge. Damnit, I wanted to go to JournalCon2000. But I would be lying if I said I didnt care who was reading it, and how they felt about it.

Like I mentioned in an earlier entry, I love statistics. I check several times a day where people are coming from, if anyone has linked to me (thanks, Douglas) and how many hits Im getting. I think its half the fun. Maybe Im just strange that way, but I want to have a journal that at least some people read and enjoy. I want validation that I am a decent writermaybe not on the level of some of you out there, but certainly above average (I do know basic grammar, after all).

So I do look for validation. I find it in seeing my notify list get larger, and my readership get bigger... but also in getting mail from my readers that says that something I wrote moved them, or entertained them, or made them think. I realize the diarist.net awards are one way to be validated. I just dont think the diarist.net awards should be the be all and end all of our validation.

Even so, I just know that every quarter, I am going to keep hoping to be nominated. When I dont get nominated, I will be a little disappointed, but Ill think "maybe next quarter" and move on. I get just as excited about the chance to vote and find out who wins. I mean, were not all actors with at least an outside possibility of getting nominated for an Emmy or an Oscar. None of my poetry has come close to being nominated for the Pulitzer. How often do we get to participate in something like this? Its exciting. Its fun. And we should be gracious enough and mature enough to accept it when we are not nominated, even in favor of people we find annoying, or less deserving than ourselves. I am really competitive, and if I can do it, anyone can.

Of course, then I read Robs entry last quarter, whining about not getting nominated. Now I love you, Rob, and I even voted for you in "Best Journal Overall" and everything-- but grow up. I also got a mail from the notify list of a journal that I happen to have nominated. It actually said, "vote for me." I didnt. Neither of these two people acted like paragons of maturity and graciousness. Of course, in a way, we rewarded Robs temper tantrum with three nominations.... So, uh... hey! Why didnt anyone nominate me?! I write better than most of you losers! You know that, dont you?! Have you bookmarked my entries for next quarter? Its never to early to start!

Im kidding, of course. Lets just set good examples for each other, and have fun finding out who wins.

-- Anonymous, August 04, 1999

uh....uh....uuhhh...Huh?...damn...I must have dozed off.
What was the questian?
Never mind.

-- Anonymous, August 05, 1999

Hmm.. (following is an unedited brain dump - read with caution)

Journals and diarists...

Such a loaded topic to begin with. Personally, I don't think many 'journals' or 'diaries' are worth much snuff at all. I mean, it's all well and good that some people want to expose themselves emotionally like some Jennicam Jerry Springer show subject but what really is the purpose?

In some cases like pamie, I mean, she's funny. I had someone actually e-mail me the other day and say she was 'fucking hilarious'. So why do most people read her page? I wouldn't say it's some stalker peeking-tom voyuer type of thing, but more of an entertainment deal.

In many other cases, the 'journal' or 'diary' (can't we just call it a damn homepage?) is a soap-box for the person to express their varied opinion on topics ranging from the Blair Witch Project to the government's decision not to erradicate the smallpox virus, to which looks better, the slamin red nailpolish, or arctic chill?

There are other sites, which try to invoke thought in the reader.. which are purposefully scripted (either from truth or fiction, but it doesn't really matter which - they usually show writing talents beyond most other people's).

Then we get to the 'Jerry Springer' types, which probably comprises a hefty majority of personal homepages out there. I find it amazing just how many screwed up people are out there that can afford a computer. They all have bipolar disorder, can't have sex, or have too much sex, are manic depressant, and have attempted suicide at least once. I would say that they are looking for help, but more and more it just seems they want attention.. the freakier the better.

Where am I going with all of this? Hell if I know.

Oh yes, awards.. that's right.

What makes a good personal homepage? We seem to all focus on the writing. Fine. That's a good start.

Now, as way of example, pamie's writing is funny. She may not have a novelist's talent, or a poet, but her entries read like screenplays. You can feel the emotion in the words, the sentences.. the inflection of a voice turning from sarcasm to irony to actually being able to visualize the hand reaching out, 3-D towards the pizza guy with the money (beware the hand! the hand ! the hand!).

That's good writing.

The popular 'rant', well, its quality is much like this message I'm typing now. It's disjointed. It doesn't have much underlying support for its arguments. It requires clarification later (or retraction). It may be interesting to read from the perspective of seeing what someone is so pissed about, or in the exercise of having fun pulling it apart.

But it's (most often) not very good writing.

Typical 'journal' and 'diary' homepages.. well, from a voyueristic perspective they may be interesting.. but many times the writing is immature, it has no voice.. it's just more useless information allowing people to live vicariously, or cheap entertainment like Walker, Texas Ranger. I'm captivated by some of them because I can't believe people that fucked up really exist.

http://www.anthology.net/ (all archives are now gone - she took them down) Was a cross-over type journal/thing. Alexis would talk about her personal life, but also she did it in a very talented way.. it was almost like prose. Compared to (no offense) columbine (from what I have read of it - very minimally), columbine is more just words put on the page. (I would assume this is because writing well is a job for her, and the homepage is a place she can clear her head).

Columbine might be entertaining or interesting from a topical point, but it's not great writing. It's somewhat dry.

I don't think I've made my point here, but it's as close as I'm going to get on this befuddled subject right now.

As for my homepage, the (sort of) daily entries I sometimes try to make some point through prose, sometimes I just blab. Deeper in the site, I use it to keep me working on writing poetry and short stories. And the site exists for me to work on my web skills. Otherwise, I try to entertain the people that may happen to swing by.

I don't get the whole 'community' thing and I don't have anything against journals, diaries, or exhibitionists. It's just that you seem to be trying to legitimize something (journalists) in the context it doesn't belong (creative writing).

It doesn't take talent to create a following for your homepage. That's easy. It takes talent to entertain an audience. That's much harder.

-- Anonymous, August 05, 1999

There has been a lot of discussion about whether awards inject an unwanted element of criticism and competition into the online journal forum. Just an observation: criticism and competition apparently exist even without the awards. Witness all the folks running around talking about whose writing is good, and whose writing sucks.

Who asked you, anyway? I know that if someone publishes something on the web they've opened themselves up to the criticisms of strangers, but I don't understand what compels those strangers to say things like, "Rob isn't as good a writer as Pamie and Jim," or "I'm a better writer than half of those losers," or "Columbine isn't all that great a writer." I mean, who cares? Didn't anyone teach you people manners?

Explain to me how this sort of crap is helpful or useful in any way. If Pamie put a script online and said, "Tell me how to make this better," then she'd be asking for your constructive opinions. I suspect she still wouldn't find it useful if the comments were along the lines of: "Well, it's better than Diane, but not as good as Chuck," but at least she'd be asking for the critique. If Jim posts his short stories and you have legitimate comments or suggestions about the structure or prose, then maybe he'd be happy to hear from you. Again, I doubt it would do him much good if you just wrote and told him he wasn't as good as Alex Massie.

I like awards. They make the recipient feel good. Hooray for awards. But a pox on unsolicited and useless criticism offered for no good reason. ("It's just my opinion" isn't a reason. You can have lots of opinions and still be an asshole.)

-- Anonymous, August 05, 1999

The problem with offering examples to make a point is that you inevitably insult someone who takes it the wrong way.

Concerning criticism of people's websites; the question posed was about awarding journals/homepages on writing merits. This would seem to indicate some type of quality in writing. As such that journals are not professional writing (newspapers), or technical writing, this leaves creative writing.

On the basis of creative writing you have people who just write, and then you have people who use language, images, concepts, and ideas to evoke response and emotion, on purpose. I say 'on purpose' because I wish to disqualify people with homepages who are simply a new flavor of exhibitionist that wishes to shock to evoke a repsonse for attention.

Creative writing, by its nature, is intentional. There is a point, a plot, and/or a structure to it.

As for being helpful or useful.. well, that really wasn't the topic of this particular discussion. Someone opened up the can of worms by trying to classify journals, through their content. Part of their content must include style.

The fox jumped over the dog. I watched him do it.

The sly fox, taking opportunity in hand, lept in a streak of brilliant red and orange over the dog, who recoiled in surprise. A smile passed over my lips; I had always secretly rooted for the fox.

See, there is a difference. The first example is what the majority of journals out there do. They just plop down. The writing is dry. But, hey, that's their own perogative. Some people get off on being able to read into other people's lives anyway, so these journals are still popular. Also, it may be more for the owner than for the audience. If it helps the owner clear their head, fine. That is a noble purpose I wouldn't fault or knock. But I still won't call the writing good.

The second example is creative writing, meant to be entertaining for an audience, either intentionally or unintentionally. But is has more substance to it, for lack of a better descriptive at this point in time.

And as for unsolicited and 'useless' criticism; as soon as you put something in the public forum, you are soliciting. Criticism is only useless from your own perspective. And perspective is everything.

-- Anonymous, August 05, 1999

But that still leaves the question: what impulse causes someone to offer the criticism in the first place? I don't care about the journaler's perspective; you have to be a little thick skinned to post a journal in the first place. But what makes someone offer the criticism in the first place, when the criticism is just "I don't like this; x isn't as good as z," etc? I mean, you don't walk up to people on the street and say, "You're ugly; she's prettier than you are; that shirt doesn't match those pants," do you? And if you did, wouldn't you be an asshole?

-- Anonymous, August 05, 1999

Latecomer to the discussion...interesting stuff here and lots to absorb. I've been very interested in all the entries about these awards, and finding myself agreeing with everyone of them, pro and con.

I DO like that they are out there. I like the crit list, I like Metajournals, I like discussing these things in all sorts of ways, so I am not one to cringe at the idea of the awards as yet another way of examining what this journal stuff is all about.

But as far as I can see, the only one of the diarist awards that is specifically about quality of writing is the Writing award... the one that has been garnering the most discussion here. And I can't see any one of the three who are finalists there not qualifying for that one.

The rest of the awards are for various elements that have more to do with the ability to evoke a certain tone for the reader than they do about writing, and I think you can be very passionate and make those readers feel right along with you, or present an idea in a way that makes someone think without the writing itself being all that exceptional.

And that seems pretty relevent to what journals are, to me.

The awards are just another way of being able to acknowledge that. "I read this two months ago, and it's still dancing around in my head...just wanted you to know that."

It makes me feel good to be nominated... makes me feel even better that the other nominees with me are so wonderful that I don't care who wins - that I'm tied up with them in any way whatsoever. And if I didn't get nominated, it wouldn't matter - I've enjoyed reading all the other entries, and the fact that I haven't found a single one where I'm thinking "why the heck is THAT here?" says that, for me at least, they are choosing well.

That there are others out there that would be equally as good and belong on that list is also a fact, but the only way I know to make that happen is to nominate, and vote wholeheartedly... get a large enough mix to choose from that it's impossible to narrow them down.

I believe there is a heck of a lot of GOOD stuff being written in these journals, and I don't see how increasing the acknowledgement of that is a bad thing.

That said the competitiveness that has come out each time saddens me. How can we compete? I write my life and thoughts, you write yours. Acknowledgement of any of it is a validation of all of it, to me.

All that said, the email I get is much more important to me than any award ever could be.

lessee, tossing my comments in on other things raised, trying to do it all by memory...

I feel exactly as Beth does about the Legacy award.... I don't understand why I'm there. I understand a bit better why Beth is there because I think short time or not, she was very inspirational in a lot of other folks getting started. But Al is the only one of us three that even comes close to really belonging in that particular category.

The "overall" nomination.... I'd be lying if I said it doesn't give me tons of feel good points... but I do not fully understand what it is. I am often told "you're not the best writer, not the best designer, but there's something about it..." I don't know what it is, either but I know there are many other journals I feel the same way about, and that's why I think there is something apart from writing (or design, or having a super-exciting story to tell) that goes into a journal, and it's some attempt to acknowledge that, even if we can't exactly define it.

The only awards I am really *comfortable* with are the entry awards... they are narrowly defined. They tend to go to a better variety of people, because ALL of us have those moments where it all comes together for us. And I reallllly wish Chuck wasn't on that particular list with me, although the entry itself was profound.

I too would like to see a "reader's choice" award along with the others. And for SOMEONE to 'splain me what an Experiemental Journal is. (I get this idea it's like a Calvin Klein commercial... dunno what the heck they're talking about, so it must be art!)

Oh. This babbling mess wouldnt be complete if I didn't toss in my own personal rant on these things... after the very first round, people were saying the 'same journals' always get nominated. I never heard of a sample space of ONE before. I would like it very much if people would give it time to build before drawing that conclusion. If it turns out to be the case, I'll leap right in there with 'em, but lets not jump the gun, ok?

-- Anonymous, August 06, 1999

Xeney, *now* I remember why I miss the cit boards in sacramento so much! You have such a way of EXPLAINING things that makes me literally go "YES!! That's EXACTLY IT!!"

The whole criticism thing is *kind* of what has been playing around in my head, since these discussions erupted on your and this forum.

I guess my whole opinion is *WHY* does there have to be awards. Why do we have to say who is better than who. And I whole-heartedly agree that the competition is there, whether the awards exist or not; I am just extrememly grateful to not be aware of any of the criticism that may or may not have been directed at ME.

I have FAR too many journals on my bookmark list - I want to read EVERYONE'S... and I guess it's just a personal pet peeve that SOMEONE'S feelings are inevitably going to be hurt because they didn't get nominated, or if they did, they didn't win.

And I guess I really am a hypocrite, as just last night I was saying to someone that someone's writing really was unreadable - but mainly that was grammatical, puncuation issues.

So anyway... I don't really have anything all the substantial to offer, but I do think that the Academy Awards analogy was pretty good.

It could turn into that, really!!

Pamie, can I write your acceptance speech?!

"Just to have been nominated, along side these great people, was an honour!"

Maybe not.

-- Anonymous, August 06, 1999

I wouldn't ordinarily point this out, but Rich's two examples of how to write about a fox jumping over a dog do, indeed, illustrate two sorts of writing, one of which is good, and one of which is bad. Specifically, the first version is direct, strong, to the point. The second is purple prose, virtually unreadable in long stretches. Not recommended. See, "creative writing" doesn't necessarily mean good writing.

But then, that's just my two cents. Unlike Rich, I wouldn't think of generalizing it further. :-)

-- Anonymous, August 08, 1999

I like Pamie's journal.

I like Columbine's journal.

I like Beth's journal.

I like Lynda's Journal.

I even, on occasion, like Rob's journal.

That's all I have left to say about the Diarist Awards.

-- Anonymous, August 09, 1999

Sorry for being a latecomer into this discussion, but I just discovered it today. I've read all the responses and the whole thing has given me a lot to think about. As someone who dosen't have an online journal, I personally think it's rather elitist that only a certain group of people (i.e. those who do have online journals) can vote on them. I would love to be given an opportunity to express my opinion on which journals I like best. To get a little off the subject, I happen to write fanfiction and I will admit that it feels good to have your work validated by others, so I can understand the reason why the awards exist to begin with. I just don't like the voting process, :D .

But barring an opportunity to vote, I will say that I don't agree with the idea that there is only one standard of good writing on which to judge, which is what a few other people have stated before. If everyone had the same standards, there wouldn't be so many books or magazines published every year, nor would there be over 1,000 online journals. Everybody's opinion on what makes a piece of writing good is pretty subjective. I have looked at a few journals with high readerships and couldn't get into them at all, while I have been touched and enlightened by journals that are considered obscure. However, I would never be immature enough to inflict MY personal standards on others. Just because I happened to have thought one person's writing was terrible dosen't mean other people feel the same way. We're lucky to live in a country which freedom of speech is our birthright and that we even have the opportunity to argue about what makes a piece of writing good. People in restrictive societies aren't this lucky.

Lady V

-- Anonymous, August 10, 1999

well, as a kind of hack journaler, i wouldn't mind it if someone were to bestow any sort of honor like that. not that anyone reads my journal anyway ( http://www.angelfire.com/mn/lithium213 ). the journalers that would say that theirs is too personal i find are the type that mostly contain bad poetry and nothing even remotely funny. the reason i like pamie's is because she has a sense of humor. i never take awards too seriously, anyw

-- Anonymous, November 10, 1999

Know what I think?

I say just leave Pamie alone. Let her write. Who cares what it's intended for!

-- Anonymous, November 16, 1999