Paul,

I hesitate to use this forumn as a scratch sheet for debate on our society. I don't know you personaly and I hesitate to email you privately. Since the subject was brought up here, I will continue it here.

To flick the switch or not, is not the answer. I understand you did not ask the question, you responded to a statement as I also did. I would beg you to please consider that the fall of the United States Government is not needed to repair the abuses we suffer from their manipulative/abusive/intrusive/thieving/ hands.

Allow me first to state, I believe you are a true patriot. That doesn't mean I follow, or agree with your posts of a vision of freedom for the common man, in our socialist world. Now allow me to address your post.

You wrote>>" The worst thing that could happen would be to allow the present govt. to continue"

I believe the worst thing that could happen is for us to allow our present govt. employees to continue to do the job they are doing. They have already proved, beyond any doubt, they have no intention of correcting the thousands of frivolous self serving laws they pass every year. They will only continue in this manner until we the people speak up in the booths. To do this we need an education that includes true unaltered history. We need parents and teachers focused on an education that urges internal growth with external responsibility.

You wrote>>"to end a tyrannical govt. people would get harmed and it was still the best thing to do."

Yes I agree that ending the govt. violently will kill many innocents. But Paul, from true grass roots rebellions at the booths no one need be harmed but the megga corporations. If true patriots became involved in all aspects of society, such as school boards, govt. in the community, county, state, and federal levels, this would not be a pipe dream, but a working reality.

Ok Paul, this is the one that pissed me off the most. You wrote>>"If the population is content to live under this tyranny, then they deserve to be wiped out as a result."

You lost logic there for me, friend. If the population is content, than that's the way it is. You are fighting reality. Called a Republic, we still use a democratic method to give leaders the powers to decide the fate of the Republic. If the population is content, then our present form of leadership will continue.

What the population deserves is the kind of education I have previously stated. A misguided population does not deserve to die. They should not be lied to in their education. We should make The United States Constitution 101 a requirement for the right to be called an American, and or claim to be an American. After a true education of the masses, if it is still voted to continue this tyranny,(and I do absolutely agree with your terminology of said govt.), then it may be time to have a flip the switch debate..

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 03, 1999

Answers

There is no fixing this (U.S.) government (or any of them). The U.S. was unique in the history of the world. To the extent that the world was been semi-free for a hundred years (out of the 200 the U.S. has existed) it was due to the U.S.

Most people have no conception of the problems, the decline. Of those that do, most blather about "If we continue this way, we'll lose the republic, we'll soon reach the point of no return, etc." They keep blatting about "all we need to do is to get politically active, hold the politician's feet to the fire, write and call our representatives..." No way. They aren't willing to admit that it's a lost cause. We've already gone over the falls. How long the drop will be, I don't know.

And the kicker is that, after a fall, there is either a dark age or an even more repressive government.

Some things just cannot be fixed, regardless of wishes and good intentions.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 03, 1999.

Mr. Wright,

I appreciate your optimism, but you are dead wrong. The government simply will not allow its power to be diminished.

Our founding fathers knew that the sword was necessary to achieve their revolution. What we need now is nothing short of the same.

Many people feel that the betrayal started with the 16th Amendment (Income tax); or perhaps the 17th Amendment (direct election of Senators); FDR's rediculous executive orders violating every precept of the US Constitution, or perhaps even Abraham Lincoln's extreme violations of his power.

Others believe it started with the Andrew Jackson with the Mexican American war - because he defied the Supreme Court.

However, I believe the American Revolution was hijacked by the Federalists. Hamilton, Jay, and Madison and their cohorts.

Jefferson and Samuel Adams (to name two) were extremely opposed to the new Constitution, but went along with it ONLY AFTER the Bill of Rights was passed.

I would say that Jefferson's fears of a massive federal government has certainly come to pass. It took about 100 years, but it happened - just as he predicted.

Now, in 1999, with over 100 years of egregious Constitutional usurpation, how can we regain the Spirit of 1776?

By eliminating the current Constitution, and BASING a new, smaller, less powerful government based on the Bill of Rights, and state's rights.

Go back to the original Article of Confederation (NOT the Southern Confederacy), with a couple of minor modifications, and we'd have our freedom.

Jolly

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), August 03, 1999.

Yes A, the problems seem so incredibly huge, all faith is lost. Nope, I'm not gonna do it. There has to be a way, or we might as well shoot ourselves in the f##ck##g head right now. We will never beat them with a militia, or a multitude of militias. We may prolong it with guerrilla warfare. The only other answer is education to decisions.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 03, 1999.

Jolly,

you wrote>> "Now, in 1999, with over 100 years of egregious Constitutional usurpation, how can we regain the Spirit of 1776?

By eliminating the current Constitution, and BASING a new, smaller, less powerful government based on the Bill of Rights, and state's rights."

How can we not regain a spirit of 76 by a proper undeceitfull education? Would our booths not reflect this education? Must it be armed revolt? Malcolm X had a speach called "The balot or The Bullet". Very interesting. Can we not try an honest balot before we try the bullet? Must my children live in Beruit to get to Eden?

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 03, 1999.

R. Wright: Say, by some miracle (not gonna happen) that enough people to make a difference in an election got "educated." (Remember, we're dealing with "sheeple" -- and the sheeple did not establish this republic, or the revolution or the articles of confederation prior to that). Think the government is going to allow the actual vote to be the official vote results? It's a piece of cake to program the voting computers to make the results come out as desired, then have the program that fudged the results to erase itself. (Even I could rig an election if everything was done on PCs.)

Think they're gonna accept going back to paper ballots and hand counting? Dream on.

The only possibility I see, and that's almost as remote as anything else, is a scenario as outlined in "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross (see Loompanics.com or Amazon.com)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 03, 1999.

A,

So that's it. It's over. The corp. won? NO NO No NO! I refuse to tell my children, well this is the world, it's a peice of shit, with no hope. I need you (including you Paul) to understand that revolt has and is a topic that is frequently touched by our family. Is armed revolt the easy way?(there is another oxy for us) Is it too much work to diligently inform the masses. Too much to ensure what is taught in our schools is truely historical(what is the truth?) It's a big job, but we could do it, not I, but we could.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 03, 1999.

Mr. Wright,

I think one of the most profound remarks by one of the Founders was "And if they surrender freedom for safety and security...then they deserve neither." paraphrased from Benjamin Franklin I believe.

Sorry to say, I agree with the Founders and Mr. Milne. If the population IS content to live under tyranny for safety, security and a perception of wealth...then they deserve EVERY injustice, scam, swindle, regulation, confiscation, imprisonment and execution the government they consent to live under dishes out to them. They will DESERVE to be wiped-out at the hand of the tyranny they abided because they opposed it not and instead became slaves.

If this public WANTS Socialism and Opressive government....then it behooves us to either change the public's mind and revolt, or leave. But if the desire for Socialism has been perpetrated on the people through subtle lies and favors and miseducation and beguilings and emotional rhetoric...then the leaders have DECEIVED the people and led them into a trap...whereby we have a duty as a free people to resist and revolt...even by violent means in the era of corruption. That is our birthright, our heritage.

The people are ignorant of our true history...they have been lulled into complacent slumber..and led to believe every good thing comes from government, when the reality is, governjment STEALS it from one group and gives it to another for political posture and control.

If the population is content...and you are content with it, seeing the decay and collapse of our national sovereignty, morality, justice and stature...then you are all slaves. Happy to have the shackles about your necks. Uncaring and ignorant that one day those shackles are going to strangle you all. Yes, you will have DESERVED IT- because you did nothing to resist it, and yea even welcomed it.

Contrary to your view Mr. Wright, a misguided population DOES deserve to die, because THEY are the ones who have let down their guard and have lost their vigillance...which we were warned to be ever mindful of.

Vigillance Mr Wright. Being mindful that our freedom is a fragile blessing that needs constant care and wariness of even the slightest possible threat. The Founders knew the threat would come from within government. The lust for power is too great a temptation to resist. They attempted to forestall it with the governing system of checks and balances...all but completely compromised and corrupted over time...and now destroyed utterly by this most evil of Administrations.

We were warned. Even daily we are warned of the fragile nature of freedom and the desire of other nations to wipe out our vestige. But we close our eyes...and listen to the spinmeisters weave. We ignore warnings. We want to hear smooth things, easy things...the things WE want to hear. No, not the Truth.

Just a simple question to make the point that if we are ever to return to the Constitutional intent our Founders wished for us, we need a revolution; Your desire to educate the masses with truth has been pleaded upon and attempted for more than 20 years...to no avail. In fact it is getting WORSE. Because those in power...refuse to vacate. Instead, they insidiously used education to brainwash our people and deny them the truth of our holy heritage. Those that proclaim the need for change are ridiculed, scorned and demouguoged...replaced by those demanding change for the benefit of destroying our heritage further through pointing out the differences and unbalances in the name of "diversity". We are no longer "One People". We are African- American, or Chinese-American, or Italian-American...celebrating our differences in culture in the face of everyone else instead of 'becoming Americans'. Culture is for the home, not for the nation at large.

And for this belief, I am labelled a racist.

Do not be ignorant of the devices your enemy uses against you. We are a hopelessly lost and condemned nation Mr. Wright. This tyranny will grow yet stronger...and the people will CLAMOUR for it! They will be whipped-up and frightened into surrendering what little true freedom they possess for the solace of safety and peace and a continuation of wealth.

We are already a nation of slaves...divided by insidious means along class, race, gender and religious lines. There are not enough of us as ONE body to overthrow this burgeoning tyranny- we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves over ridiculous quibblings of "rights". We have been divided and conquered by wolves in our midst, and soon the bloodletting of the slaves is upon us.

And we the people...becuase of our indifference, because of our complacency, because of our greed, because of our indulgences, because of our unwillingness to judge, because of asuaging our guilt, because of our willful ignorance, because of our abandonment of God and the covenant He struck with this nation's pilgrims and Founders..... this people will deserve to die at the hands of their own enslavement.

And for this....I have no mercy...because we had been warned and willfully chose to ignore it. To nationally indulge in sin for a season...and turn our back on what is right and wrong.

We are already beginning to see the fruits of our enslavement...kids killing kids, and more restrictions and more regulations and more tightening of the shackles about your necks...until to prevent you people from harming yourselves and society...the BOOT will come down on your heads...and everything you think, do and say will be suspect.

You are already slaves....and comfortable with it!!!

I will weep not at your destruction nor your captivity as I have wept already at the incredulity that you will all perish by your own hand.

You have done it to yourselves because of your laziness, your sloth and your unbelief.

We are no longer a Represenative Republic Mr. Wright...we are now a true democracy...mob rule by the manipulation of the media and the politicians. Enslaved to the system they slowly erected around you...and sold you on.

How can change come to such a spoiled and ignorant people Mr. Wright? Change can only come when they collectively realize the state they are in.

And they are being bound in chains....willingly. Yes, they deserve neither freedom nor safety. They sold-out their birthright.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 03, 1999.

Invar,

You were posting as I was responding to A. I value your input. I can't give you a thought out response until tom. Got some work to do yet tonite. Like prince said in the song, 1999 oops outa time.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 03, 1999.

INVAR,

Whew. Now tell us what you *really* think!

There is another option, though it was tried once, the first time the participants were not idealogical consistent enough to pull it off. Also, they decided to start a shooting war. That option is secession.

Now, since I'm sure I'll get called a racist as well, I might say at the outset that the Second American Revolution of 1861-1865 was NOT a slavery issue. It was a states rights issue. In that, the South was true to the US Constitution, and good ole Honest Abe was the violator (in spades [sic]).

A third secessionist movement would certainly invoke the wrath of fed gov. But there have been several threats of secession. The founding fathers said that no one should be forced to be tied to any government if they didn't want to be.

Alaska, who gets reamed more than most states threatens secession occasionally.

Texans also have a streak of sovereignty (sp?) that runs through the Western and South Western parts (NOT S.A. Houston, or Dallas, egad. And I say this as a former resident of that great state).

There's even a mythical "State of Jefferson" that encompasses part of Northernmost California, and Southern Oregon. The last time they threatened to leave those states, but not the US.

Secession is morally superior, and probably the only viable possibility. However it cannot be done at the state level. The states, too, have too much invested in the status quo.

So, I hope Jefferson will secede. Followed by Brewster County, Texas, and then maybe Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho will follow. (Now I *know* I'll be equated with Aryan Nations or some other fascist organization)

If Fed.gov is hit hard enough by Y2K, that may even be possible. It certainly is desirable.

Jolly reads too much history.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), August 03, 1999.

Now your talking!! Wish I had more time tonite, dammit!!

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 03, 1999.

For the last twenty years,(married a lot longer) I have told my wife the usofa will resemble mexico, india or brazil in this next century. I have visited all three countries. And driven thru-out LA, Chicago, WashDC, and Houston. Same values or lack of, just a matter of size and time. But I have hope of a change and it gets stronger every day with the news media and feds handling of Y2K.

-- HistoryBookCollector (fhhh@ghghghg.com), August 03, 1999.

If you want to read a really interesting analysis of how the big welfare states are struggling, and what the future may look like, get a copy of "The Sovereign Individual" by James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Moog.

Its a really interesting read. A lot of the focus is on how cyberspace is changing business and the way money flows, and the effect that has on taxation and nation-states. The bottom line is that big governments are losing power and control, and the genie is out of the bottle; theres no turning back to the past. I personally think big governments are scared silly by the worldwide freedom on the Internet, look at things like China's internet policies, it's illegal to own a modem in Burma, and even our own US Governments attempts to water down PGP and other forms of encryption.

With cyberspace and an e-economy, you don't have to live and do business under a big government. You can locate your business in any one of a number of countries that do not have a confiscatory tax policy, and do business worldwide. People with techinical and business skills will tend to prosper. The downside is that unskilled people will feel it in very negative ways.

The world is changing fast, and looking to the past really does no good in trying to understand what is happening now and in the next few decades. What an interesting, dynamic time we live in!

-- Sovereign Individual (Sovereign@Now.net), August 03, 1999.

"our holy heritage"???????? Civil War over "states' rights"...yeah, the right to keep slaves for the efficient raping of the land to produce wealth and luxury for the powerful few plantation owners. Come on, Invar, this is fantasy. The headline should read "Erosion destroys fertile land as millions are enslaved so a few powerful white men can live in freedom's paradise for a couple of generations." Or how about, freedom loving patriots drive nature loving Indians from their homes so that they don't have to kill them. Southern forests now available for clear cutting."

-- Sand Mueller (smueller@azalea.net), August 03, 1999.

Sand, with all due respect, youi REALLY should go back and read some contemporaneous documentation for the event before you characterize the conflict that way. As a northerner, who has also lived in the south, I became curious and did some research. I didn't have to get real in depth, as the stuff is fairly widespread. I came to the conclusion that my 7th and 8th grade history had had some holes in them and that the conflict was NOT simply a slave vs "free" contest. There were too many other influences, including, but NOT limited to the Yankee Industrialists vs Southern Plantationists.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), August 03, 1999.

-- INVAR,

Right on INVAR!

However..."When the enemy comes in like a flood I will raise up a standard against them."

We win!

aka Mark Hillyard

-- freeman (freeman@cali.com), August 03, 1999.

Invar...You Are Invariably correct sir. I am in agreement and duly impressed. I Thank You. Charon

-- Charon (thatplace@downbelow.com), August 03, 1999.

R. Wright, I applaud your optimism, as others here and I agree that we are in DIRE need of an education that "includes true unaltered history." The teaching of "internal growth with external responsibility" I think belongs to the family, particularly parents, not the State or Federal government and I would not have my personal authority nor those of other parents usurped by anyone. I agree that we must work to change things for the better for our children and ourselves through education but not through a federally mandated system. IMO, and this is not a sole viewpoint, the educational system in this country is in trouble. Of course, though you may not agree, I believe that trouble is because it is a system that has spawned a large marketing audience for commercialism, powerful political ties, and basically, profiteering of all sorts as well as an avenue for directing political idealogy by the dominant cultural/political theme of the day, liberalism. Many abhor the thought of the union of church and state but it seems to me that not many are concerned about the "bedfellows" of school and state. And I agree with Jolly "the government will not allow its power to be diminished." Look at the difficulties that many parents have in homeschooling their children, not everywhere nor in every case, but there are difficulties. Requirements must be met, testing must be done, regulation, regulation, etc, though there are differences statewide. Why? Because the models for our educational system created during the industrial revolution to produce "workers" were learned from the Prussian standards, producing "cannon fodder" as I read it once. Cannon fodder must not think. Cannon fodder must obey. To quote John Taylor Gatto, former teacher and well known advocate for educational change, in an interview he commented about the Prussian schools model, "what they would learn is that someone else told you what to think about, when to think about it, how long to think about it, when to stop thinking about it, when to think of something else, and someone else sets up the secrets." Hardly the kind of thinking required for a revolution, even an internal one. Anyway, my two cents. Enjoyed this thread very much.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 03, 1999.

I cannot let this stand. Sand, you are either an avowed Socialist/ Marxist or you are daft and ignorant.

I'd prefer to use ignorant. Ignorant of our true history, our purpose and how we were intended as a nation. But you, thinking you know better..and feigning wisdom about your points illustrate your utter idiocy when it comes to all things historical in context.

>>>>""our holy heritage"???????? Civil War over "states' rights"...yeah, the right to keep slaves for the efficient raping of the land to produce wealth and luxury for the powerful few plantation owners.<<<"

Slavery itself wasn't even AN ISSUE at the beginning of the Confederacy. The South seceeded over STATES RIGHTS, as they saw the intrusion of the federal government an infringement on their Constitutional rights. Go and read up on it. You don't know what you're talking about...or you've been Liberally brainwashed in a public school or at a Socialist College.

>>>>"Come on, Invar, this is fantasy. The headline should read "Erosion destroys fertile land as millions are enslaved so a few powerful white men can live in freedom's paradise for a couple of generations." Or how about, freedom loving patriots drive nature loving Indians from their homes so that they don't have to kill them. Southern forests now available for clear cutting."<<<<

Your bias and contempt for our heritage is disgusting. You have NO knowledge of what you speak other than Liberal BULLSHIT spewed forth to make us filled with guilt. And contrary to your utter nonsensical bullshit about Indians...they weren't by-in-large "nature loving" nor peaceful. Read the diaries of the early settlers of the 1600's, read the testimonies of entire nations being wiped-out BY OTHER INDIANS. We had a manifest destiny by the hand of God to be given this land...and even the Indians recognized that, despite our many sins against them.

This nation was a birthright blessing from God, and I don't give two shits about your revisionist histories and your lamantable guilt- trips. Much precious blood was spilled so that you Sand could have the freedom to speak the nonsense you did above, and to believe what you do. Have you no gratitude for even that...or are you a total asshole elitist?

Get a clue about history...from the writings of those who lived it.

A real eye-opener.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 03, 1999.

Jollyprez,

In regards to secession.....I like it.

Yes and amen to the TRUTH about the Second American Revolution and why it was fought.

Unfortunately in this militarized police state we now live, the second a county or group of county's seceeded....you would have another Ruby Ridge or Waco multiplied a hundred-fold.

This government (Though contrary to what Lord Rees-Moog asserts, as those in power always tighten their grip when they feel their power slipping) would have state and local SWAT and Marines surrounding these areas while a full-court propaganda machine turned an entire nation against them...claiming they are 'extremists', 'dangerous' 'child molesters', 'racists' and so on.

You have to understand what our evil leaders in Washington understand: you cannot have power and control when there are large elements of rebellion, for rebellion may spread to others that would take-up their cause. So you spin it and snuff it quickly...violently even, as an example to others that would attempt it. If you doubt this, ask yourself why we have been conditioned through political correctness to think alike, and be constrained within boundaries of what is considered "normal"?

Secession IS morally superior...but we are too divided and fragmented a people to even attempt it. The cries of an entire state of people in Idaho at the stealing of their land by the Federal government who imposed severe restrictions on their lands and use...has fallen on deaf ears in the rest of the nation. Just an example.

The reality is...we are already enslaved. We desire it, it is comfortable.

The few like myself and yourself that will stand up in opposition need to realize and accept the fact that you WILL be mowed-down, just as those that took to arms to ensure our liberty have been.

But then why should we be any different?

History does a mind good.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 03, 1999.

I got on my soapbox and spazzed out, forgot to make one other point. There isn't enough time left to wait for that internal growth/external responsibility thing to occur through education of the masses. If y2k causes major social upheaval, and yeah, we can argue whether it will and to what degree on and on ad infinitum, but forget that and say that it does and the government/power system is crippled and topples(I doubt it but not impossible) what's left in the power vacuum? The publically educated masses with their embedded "education" and value system implanted by the politically correct and liberal "critical thinking" educators who have left logic by the wayside? The new tyrants and bullies of our social chaos? I think what we have is an old conflict, the people vs. themselves and the products of their action,(or inaction)our system of government. Who gets to write the new history? The ones who win. I don't know the answer to the next question.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 03, 1999.

Hhhmmm. I have a large hole in history education re Civil War era. Could somebody recommend one book which presents that period factually?

No matter what, I will always go by certain basic current observations: slavery is bad and wrong; the environment is suffering rampant abuse; life is not the way it should be.

Whether Y2K changes .gov .system for better or worse or at all will soon be evident. My perception is that many people, although embroiled in the rat race, know on a deeper level that the treadmill is askew and enscrewed.

Interesting times, with that Bump In The Road an incognito POPOCATEPETL about to blow.

3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), August 03, 1999.

Everyone types faster than me. I'm still adressing the original post, haven't even thought about secession yet!! Maybe later.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), August 03, 1999.

When you consider secession don't forget Cascadia ;^) Unique environmental concerns are the driving factor.

-- Cascadians (allaha@earthlink.net), August 03, 1999.

INVAR wrote -------We had a manifest destiny by the hand of God to be given this land...and even the Indians recognized that, despite our many sins against them.----------

Who are the "We" specifically, that supposedly had been given this manifest destiny by the hand of God?

Also, are the millions of new immigrants also included in the "We" or is the manifesty destiny by the hand of God only applicable to white Christians?

Which particular Indians recognized this and what evidence of that do you have?

Please do answer. I'm interested in whether you view the USA as a home for ALL people of different races and religions or somehow as a land that should be run by, and for the benefit of white Christians only.

I sincerely hope that's not what you believe. Please correct me if I have read your writings and misinterpreted what you seem to be saying

Thank you.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), August 03, 1999.

Speaking of secession (sp?) and states, every once in a while the eastern shore of Maryland threatens to seceed from the western shore, or be lumped in with Virginia's eastern shore and Delaware to form 'Delmarva.' The last such incident occurred several years ago when our past governor, the illustrious William Donald (Billy Don) Schaffer made the comment (which leaked out), "The Shithouse of the Eastern Shore." Well needless to say that raised up a stir with local residents.

I can understand all of the comments above and can't really say whether I agree or disagree with any of them. Social relationships are very complex and are never completely understood (witness all the different interpretations of historical events). Spin is constantly applied to events, decades and centuries after the fact. I used to wrestle with philosophical events, trying to picture a 'perfect' world. My first revelation that it is impossible came when I realized that I am seeing the world through my eyes, my ideas and prejudices, my point of view. My 'perfect world' is not someone else's - one size cannot fit all because it's just too complex.

The real revelation came (and to me it's quite simple) when I realized that no matter how many outcomes are possible, only one will happen. So I don't worry about anything now, because whatever happens is going to happen. I know some of you are thinking, "yes, but you can make a difference by doing something different, for example running for office." My response is, "but that's what happens." It's not exactly the same (in my mind) as fate, but close. I can either stomp my right foot now or not stomp it, but I can only do one or the other, and whichever I do, that is what was done - that is what actually happened. Very simple, yet profound at the same time. Well, it's given me inner peace anyway.

To put the debate in Y2K perspective, it can be anywhere from a 1 to a 10 - nobody knows what will happen, but when it happens, there will be only one way that it happens, across the board. Either there will be a chemical plant explosion or there won't. My local pizza parlor will go bankrupt or it won't. Not to make a dichotomy thinking only, either the power will be on continually, blackout for 5 minutes, brownout for 12:43 or whatever. My point is that whatever happens will be the way it happens. Poeple can affect the outcome, but whatever happens will happen.

So regardless of what you think will happen, how will you feel about what does happen?

-- Jim (x@x.x), August 03, 1999.

As Invar and Chuck pointed out, you are seriously misinformed, Sand. States' rights was indeed the catalyst for the War Between the States.

Try to educate yourself before you start spouting off. You and those like you who believe the pap they're served in the media and believe the revisionist history books are the very ones Invar inveighs against.

It should be noted, as well, that most slave traders were Yankees, not Southerners. It should be further noted that when those slave ships arrived in Africa, it was Africans selling other Africans into slavery.

As Mark Twain noted, Sand, "It's better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 03, 1999.

Craig asks valid questions to which I have valid answers.

>>>"Who are the "We" specifically, that supposedly had been given this manifest destiny by the hand of God?<<<"

If your read the writings of the Pilgrims at the time of the Mayflower Compact, and the writings of the Puritans that settled this nation in the 1600's, they viewed their plantations as a "New Testament Israel". They considered themselves Israelites in the Christian sense, bound to the Authority of God in every part of their lives. "We" specifically refers to all those that God has called to enjoy the birthright blessings he promised, but witheld for 1, 460 years from the Israelites. "We" were to be a model Christian nation, with the blessings of God poured out on all who would share and become one with His laws, of which our Constitution is based. Many Indians, including the famous Pocohantas converted to Christianity by observing the suffering of the early Christians who rejoiced in it, and witnessed the miracles performed on the settler's behalf. "We" refers to all whom were willing to submit to the common Laws of the community that were based in the Law of God.

>>>>"Also, are the millions of new immigrants also included in the "We" or is the manifesty destiny by the hand of God only applicable to white Christians?"<<<<

Is it not obvious that "We" included ALL the immigrants that have come to our shores by the measure of our greatness? We were intended by God to be a nation submissive to His laws, thereby receiving bountiful blessings other nations could notice as a witness as to how a nation should live and prosper in the desire they too would emulate those immutable principles of peace, and thus prosper.

>>>>"Which particular Indians recognized this and what evidence of that do you have?"<<<

Many Indian Nations had prophecies and visions that the Great Spirit was giving the land to the "White Settlers". Read their myriad writings. There are Hopi premonitions and Cherokee dreams written down as to the destiny of the "Whites". My wife tells of her grandmother's (100% Chickesaw) stories of their ancestors' belief that the European settlers were to be given the land by the Great Spirit, and that they would be blessed in co-habitating with them. I have a book in mind, but the title and author escape me at the moment. But there are writings and histories of Indians that recognized the hand of God in the destiny of the White Settlers.

>>>>"Please do answer. I'm interested in whether you view the USA as a home for ALL people of different races and religions or somehow as a land that should be run by, and for the benefit of white Christians only. "<<<<<

This nation and its myriad blessings were a fulfillment of a Promise God gave to the grandsons of Issac- Ephraim and Manassah. Our intention as a nation, recognized by the early settlers, was to be a city on a hill, a Christian nation that all would be blessed within. Our greatness can be attributed to the "melting pot" of many immigrants who shed their outward cultures to "become Americans". This principle is no different than the principle God charged the Hebrews with when marching out of Egypt...that if any gentile or Egyptian desire to accompany them...they must become ONE with the nation.

Today that priciple has been bastardized. We no longer "melt" into one people, but we point out and magnify our differences. It is a fatal flaw.

But now since we consider ourselves more "enlightened" and have rewritten and forgotten history...we have fashioned our own morality as to the intent of our nation, and what is right and good and proper. We have decided what is right in our own eyes...ignoring our true history in conjunction with the word of God.

And regardless whether I have close Muslim, black and Asian friends...because I just espoused what I have...I am viewed as nothing more than a racist. So be it. There are Muslim nations, Shinto nations, Buddist nations, and Pagan nations....this was intended as a Christian nation. That's just too bad if you don't like that statement or disagree with it. It is the Truth, whether you accept it or not.

Every immigrant that has desired to come here and experience the "American Dream" and enjoy the wealth and blessings, has been bound to conform to our laws in this nation...which were founded in the Word of God...which is where our knowledge of morality comes from. This nation's generosity comes from no less the Golden Rule...and Christian principles of charity and longsuffering.

No other nation on Earth has been so blessed. Due in part to our obedience to this covenant established in the 1600's...and was our sextant and guide for almost three centuries, until we threw it out in the last 50 years, to embrace a completely alien notion and belief system fostered on us by a few intellectual elitists.

This nation is not "by and for whites". It is by and for those whom love God and are obedient to His statues and laws that we as a whole people may be so blessed. It is by and for the servants of God and to whom sacrificed and shed blood for our freedom. To the victor go the spoils. And that is the way it was, and is and ever shall be.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 03, 1999.

I'm a "Yankee" -- not born in the South, never lived in the South. Only been there for "business" or recreation.
That being said, THE SOUTH WAS RIGHT. LINCOLN WAS A TRAITOR. Like all demagogues, Lincoln latched onto a smokescreen, the slavery issue, to drum up popular support for what was in essence the biggest power grab in U.S. history. Lincoln, with the Civil War (War Between the States), by war, by military power, by killing opposition, established the SUPREMACY of the U.S. Federal Government over the individual state governments. Prior to that time, at least on paper, the individual states were sovereign, THEY granting limited powers to the U.S. Federal Government.

I only came to the realization that Lincoln was a traitor many years after my public (government -- get it?) school "education" (brainwashing) about how Lincoln was such a hero. OF COURSE he was a hero -- to those fond of totalitarian governments.

I would like to see the switch thrown. We are now suffering the death of a thousand cuts.

BTW, secession / civil war? Check out "Civil War II: The Coming Breakup of America" -- by Thomas W. Chittum; Paperback (see Amazon.com)

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 03, 1999.

The dispute over State's Rights, and the economic differences between Northern and Southern states, evolved from, and were exacerbated by the differences between free states and slave states. Without that crucial difference, the War of Northern Aggression would likely have never been.

If you find this statement incorrect, please provide an example of conflict that cannot be attributed to the above.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 03, 1999.

I don't think anyone disagrees, Unc, that the free state-slave state debate wasn't an issue. It was. So were unfair tariff and trade practices and punitive freight rates for Southern entities.

My objection is to the now-prevalent notion--thanks to those revisionist history books--that the war was fought over the issue of slavery. It was not.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), August 03, 1999.

Unc,

The difference in "free states" and "slave states" had very little to do with the economic disparity between the two.

The South in the mid-1800 was an agricultural engine, and the fatal flaw in the financing of the Confederate War effort, which was assumed could be paid for by the major export crop of cotton, which the more industrialized North had put regulation and tarrif upon. The North had twenty millions in poulation and ALL the industry. The South had eight millions, three of which were slaves....with only their agriculture as an export. The South resented the intrusions of the Northern impositions on it's economy and viewed it as blind greed.

Slavery had almost nothing to do with it.

States had already seceeded from the union by early 1861, in which the Federal Government of the U.S. had NOT YET BANNED SLAVERY. Lincoln had not even written his Emancipation Proclamation yet and Fort Sumter had not even been fired upon.

In fact Lincoln had no desire to rescind slavery, but to prevent ANY state from seceeding. He said in his innauguration that he had no intention of "interfereing with the institution of slavery" but that "No state, on it's own mere action, can get out of the Union."

The Civil war needed a propaganda spin-tool to engender nobility to the opressive intrusion of the federal Government on sovereign states.

Lincoln warned in his innaugural speech: "In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The government will NOT assail you. You cannot have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in Heaven to destroy the government, while I have the most solemn one to 'preserve, protect, and defend' it."

So clearly, the immediate issue was not slavery, but secession, which all states in the Confederacy did BEFORE Lincolns innaugural.

Slavery was a side issue used as all marketing tools are used. Though slavery be an evil institution...that in itself was not the cause of the civil war.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 03, 1999.

Leska wrote:

Hhhmmm. I have a large hole in history education re Civil War era. Could somebody recommend one book which presents that period factually?

Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men: A History of the American Civil War by Jeffrey Rogers Hummel

-- Jim Morris (prism@bevcomm.net), August 03, 1999.

INVAR,

I was not saying that Lincoln's desire (or lack of desire) to free the slaves was the cause of the war, nor was I saying that trade and tariff issues did not contribute to the friction between North and South. I was saying that the huge differences between the states, and most of the disputes between them, had as it's basis the difference between states with an economy based on capitol spent on improvements to infrastructure and industry, and states with an economy that had it's capitol tied up in slaves. Also, the slavery issue DID cause a lot of direct friction between North and South, most decidedly when debating whether new states entering the Union should be allowed to be free states or slave states.

These differences grew more distinct as the decades passed, and by the time Lincoln was elected the differences were vast. And yes I'm well aware that many of the Southern States had decided to withdraw from the Union before Lincoln was sworn in as President.

The influx of immigrants benefited the North in terms of it's superior population. Since that is where the higher paying industries were located very few new arrivals headed south. This situation too can be traced back to the decision of the south to use slaves in an agriculturally based, poorly paying economy.

I stand by my thought that the differences between North and South evolved from, and were exacerbated by, the differences between slave states and free states, and the economic and social differences inherent in those differences.

As a side note, the worst invention for the continuation of slavery was: The Cotton Gin! Eli Whitney's (sp?) invention made cotton a much more valuable crop, and hence doomed the south to relying on slaves harvesting one major crop for it's economic well being.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 03, 1999.

And regardless whether I have close Muslim, black and Asian friends...because I just espoused what I have...I am viewed as nothing more than a racist. So be it. There are Muslim nations, Shinto nations, Buddist nations, and Pagan nations....this was intended as a Christian nation. That's just too bad if you don't like that statement or disagree with it. It is the Truth, whether you accept it or not.

So, Invar, all you have to do is say that YOUR truth is THE truth, and if we don't like it, well, too bad we are so ignorant as to not believe the way you do.

That's the trouble with christers (as opposed to Christians, Invar) They think they know everything.

Pardon me for not reading the same history books as you did, but MY history lessons tell me that the United States was originally settled by Europeans (immigrants at the time) who wanted FREEDOM of religion, not one more DOGMA, such as you are preaching here, Invar. Just because you tell us that YOUR god is the ONE god doesn't make it so.

I don't claim to be an expert at history or the constitution, but can you please show us where it says that this nation was founded to be a christian nation?

Thanks, Invar

I've had lots of discussions over the years, Invar, on many topics. Religion is one of these topics. Some people can benefit from discussions; they are the ones who are willing to consider all sides of a discussion. Others cannot benefit from a discussion, Invar, because they are too rigid in their beliefs, and refuse to recognize that they may NOT know everything.

Which are you, Invar?

You say that

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), August 03, 1999.

Thank you, Jim Morris.

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), August 03, 1999.

In answer:

Paul, I hesitate to use this forumn as a scratch sheet for debate on our society. I don't know you personaly and I hesitate to email you privately. Since the subject was brought up here, I will continue it here.

(You may e-mail any time you wish.)

To flick the switch or not, is not the answer.

( Then you misunderstand the question)

I understand you did not ask the question, you responded to a statement as I also did. I would beg you to please consider that the fall of the United States Government is not needed to repair the abuses we suffer from their manipulative/abusive/intrusive/thieving/ hands.

( unquestionably it is. Our rights have been utterly abrogated and the courts have miserably failed in their DUTY to protect us from the 'stealthy encroachment' of the fedgov.)

Allow me first to state, I believe you are a true patriot. That doesn't mean I follow, or agree with your posts of a vision of freedom for the common man, in our socialist world. Now allow me to address your post.

You wrote>>" The worst thing that could happen would be to allow the present govt. to continue"

I believe the worst thing that could happen is for us to allow our present govt. employees to continue to do the job they are doing.

( Same thing)

They have already proved, beyond any doubt, they have no intention of correcting the thousands of frivolous self serving laws they pass every year.

( You're getting warmer, except for ONE thing, The 'laws' that they pass are not MERELY frivolous. They are not MERELY unconstitutional. The matters upon which they even consider to pass laws are WHOLLY not under their purview (sp?) in the first place. Let me give you an example. The consitution is NOT a document that the Government dictates as it's will upon us. It is OUR will upon THEM. They are ORDERED by US to do ONLY certain things on our behalf. ONLY things which we have PERMITTED them to do. However, ove r time, this has been perverted into them doing anything that they wish as long as enough legislators vote for it. This is NOT the purpose of the constitution. The Constitution was to severly limit federal authority over the states and the citizens. This is no longer the case. We are Federal subjects. We are tyrannized. We are enslaved. )

They will only continue in this manner until we the people speak up in the booths.

( No, duh. But the citizens are utterly ignorant. They are ineducable. It is too late. You don't like hearing people recognize and say that it is too late? think that is terrible? Patrick henry did not think it was too terrible to utter, and I quote..

"Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves.

Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne!

In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope.

Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave.

If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston!

The war is inevitable -- and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come. "

Sometimes, you have to be brave enough to recognize that it is too late, and that mere 'hope' that things can be reconciled is self- delusion and fantasy)

To do this we need an education that includes true unaltered history.

(LOL LOL To be administered by whom? Public schools? Public schols funded by the government will explain how the government itself is perverting our liberties and freedoms? Please, sir, you are too naive for words. )

We need parents and teachers focused on an education that urges internal growth with external responsibility.

( LOL LOL LOL Too late. We have a grossly immoral country growing more immoral every day by leaps and bounds. And nothing will change that.)

You wrote>>"to end a tyrannical govt. people would get harmed and it was still the best thing to do."

Yes I agree that ending the govt. violently will kill many innocents. But Paul, from true grass roots rebellions at the booths no one need be harmed but the megga corporations.

( Please, such blather is absurd.)

If true patriots became involved in all aspects of society, such as school boards, govt. in the community, county, state, and federal levels, this would not be a pipe dream, but a working reality.

( If pigs had wings they would fly. your 'hope' is an absurdity in the face of reality.)

Ok Paul, this is the one that pissed me off the most. You wrote>>"If the population is content to live under this tyranny, then they deserve to be wiped out as a result."

You lost logic there for me, friend. If the population is content, than that's the way it is. You are fighting reality.

( No, tyranny. tyranny accepted by the masses is no less tyranny and no less acceptable.)

Called a Republic, we still use a democratic method to give leaders the powers to decide the fate of the Republic.

( No we do not. You have an UTTER and fundemental misunderstanding of our government. The people DELEGATED some of their authority to the fedgove to do SPECIFIC things. They have WILDLY overstepped those bounds and are now an unrecognizable band of blatant criminals.)

If the population is content, then our present form of leadership will continue.

(Benjamin Franklin said quite succinctly that those who waive their freedoms do not DESERVE them. If the population is content, then they are MY ENEMY. They are NOT Americans. They are THIEVES who steal from my liberty. Just because they were born on this continent makes them NO friends of mine. Make no mistake that I regard them as ENEMIES. The reason: My rights are GOD GIVEN. They assent to taking from me what has been given to me BY GOD HIMSELF. I am very JEALOUS of what God has goven to me. And anyone who tries to take it is a thief of a GIFT OF GOD and is therefore my ENEMY, born on this continent or NOT)

What the population deserves is the kind of education I have previously stated.

( On the contrary, They DESERVE nothing of the kind. They had a RESPONSIBILITY. They failed. They DESERVE their fate for failing in their civiv duty.)

A misguided population does not deserve to die.

( AWWWWWWWWWW. Poor misguided population. It's always the poor misguided so and so. Always the bleeding heart liberality for the poor misguided citizens but noit a word about their abrogated RESPONSIBILITIES. They HAD a responsibility. Fathers had the RESPONSIBILITY to teach their sons as I do mine. They failed. And now, the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons.)

They should not be lied to in their education.

( your point? The fact is they have and they believe it. They are at enmity with me and with anyone who values their God given liberty more than PEACE with those who would go along with the theft of God Given rights.))

We should make The United States Constitution 101 a requirement for the right to be called an American, and or claim to be an American.

( All well and good. Too late for that now.)

After a true education of the masses, if it is still voted to continue this tyranny,(and I do absolutely agree with your terminology of said govt.), then it may be time to have a flip the switch debate..

( Let me know when you have woken up to reality and will stand by my side, happy to load my gun.)

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 03, 1999

-- Paul Milne (fedinfo@halifax.com), August 03, 1999.

I guess Mr. Milne and I are kindred spirits.

But this is a response to jumpoffjoe...in which I am pained to even dignify his ignorant post with a reply.

>>>"So, Invar, all you have to do is say that YOUR truth is THE truth, and if we don't like it, well, too bad we are so ignorant as to not believe the way you do."<<<

Firstly, you are correct, but let me clarify: it is not MY truth, it is the Truth of God revealed in scripture, and the truth of history as written by those whom lived it. Yes, if you don't like it...tough beans.

>>>" That's the trouble with christers (as opposed to Christians, Invar) They think they know everything."<<<

Though we see in part and through a glass darkly...the truths of God and of our history are self-evident. I know and accept uncompromisingly, the things which I have studied and proven. So I know and believe what I have proven...which you wrongly intepret as my being a "know-it-all"

>>>"Pardon me for not reading the same history books as you did,.."<<<

Obviously. You were no doubt educated with revisionist bullshit at the hand of our illustrious Public School System, or your history teacher was woefully inadequate. Read the history yourself. READ the writings of those who lived and forged this nation. Don't take Scholastic's word for it.

>>>"but MY history lessons tell me that the United States was originally settled by Europeans (immigrants at the time) who wanted FREEDOM of religion, not one more DOGMA, such as you are preaching here, Invar.<<<<"

Ummmm sir , you are ignorant of WHY the first comers came here from England and Europe. Bullshit revisionist history brainwashed us to think that the Pilgrims and Puritans came from England to escape forced religion. That is a spun false hood.

According to the writings of William Bradford, John Robinson, John Winthrop, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather and a host of other Pilgrim, Puritan and Quaker settlers of the 1600's, they left England because the Church of England had become corrupt and slothful in their views of religion. They therefore wanted to return to a more pure life of religion as intended by scripture..and thus SEPARATED from the Church of England whereby they were regarded as fanatics and persecuted as the "separatists". In other words....they seceeded from the union of the Church of England, and fled here to practice their calling and worship in purity.

They WANTED harsh dogma to be instilled in every aspect of their lives. They didn't want freedom FROM religion as many falsely believe today...they wanted the freedom to PURSUE religion without intrusion by the Church of England.

And if you consider me preachy...tooo bad. The truth need be told, even if you want to stop up your ears and cast it out. I don't give a damn.

>>>" Just because you tell us that YOUR god is the ONE god doesn't make it so.<<<"

I understand and accept the fact GLEEFULLY that you and I do not acknowledge nor worship the same God.

>>>"I don't claim to be an expert at history or the constitution,<<<"

Then why post your drivel and ignorant ravings on a post that delved into our history and the foundational pinnings of our Constitution? You claimed "My history teaches....." which I proved was unadulterated nonsense of opinion...not fact. History is not what your opinion of it is...history is WHAT it is because of fact and event (regardless of the fact that the victors write the history).

">>>>but can you please show us where it says that this nation was founded to be a christian nation?"<<<<

No, you need to research it for yourself. Go to the Library and read the writings of the folks I mentioned above. THEY, who founded the colonies and established Christianity on this continent, and read what those that WROTE the Constitution had to say about God, morality and sacred honor in the execution of our Laws. Those that founded this nation and forged it from the wilderness wrote and testified as to the intent God and they had in mind for this nation.

>>>>"I've had lots of discussions over the years, Invar, on many topics. Religion is one of these topics. Some people can benefit from discussions; they are the ones who are willing to consider all sides of a discussion. Others cannot benefit from a discussion, Invar, because they are too rigid in their beliefs, and refuse to recognize that they may NOT know everything."<<<<

Sorry again dude. I do not play the elitist game of "Show your intelligence by demonstrating your open mind" crap. I do not compromise my beliefs. I do not subscribe to "gray areas". Life is black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. Too bad if you don't like that stand. God commands we judge, contrary to the modern definition of what is considered the most "heinous" sin - being judgement. God says " I set before you life and death, therefore choose life that you and your descendants may live"." Notice that there are only two options...gray areas not being one of them.

There is truth. Truth being of God. Not my truth, not your truth...just truth. I don't care if you accept it, or believe it or not. It remains regardless of what you or I think or opine.

I gan give a rats ass what you or anyone thinks or opines about me or what I believe in. I frankly don't care. I state my belief boldly with no apology nor retreat.

You can accept it, or shun it. I don't care. It remains regardless.

You just need to pray for eyes to see and ears to hear.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 03, 1999.

INVAR,

You wrote>>"They will deserve to be wiped out at the hand of the tyranny they abided because they opposed it not and instead became slaves"

" a misguided population does deserve to die"

I take it you agree with the death penalty.[g]

My mother was born in the Appalachia's, (need I say more?), in the late 30's. She worked her way out by the late 50's. She moved to Pa., where she met my father, and together they worked their way from a small apartment, to owning their own small home in the suburbs, picket fence, the whole 9 yrds. She always paid her taxes, fed, state, and locals. She blindly supported every deceitful move said govt. did.

You would have this tenacious, hard working, loving person shot?!? In your own words you condemn my mother to death. Your words>>"Because they are the ones who have let down their guard and have lost their vigillance"

Can u say civil war INVAR? Who should I shoot at, the fed who robs me, or the person who wants to shoot my mother for ignorantly supporting the fed? I think Franklin would roll over in his grave if he heard a "patriot" shot my mother for her ignorance.

You wrote>>"Vigillance Mr. Wright. Being mindful that our freedom is a fragile blessing that needs constant care."

Truer words were never spoken. Here I can't agree with you more. This statement IMO stands right with The Sermon on the Mount.

You wrote>>"We want to hear smooth things, easy thingsThe things we want to hear."

I propose INVAR, that YOU want to hear the smooth easy things. Do you not offer a smooth easy solution to my mother's ignorant apathy? Yes INVAR, you offer the final solution, Hitler's solution. If you don't agree, shoot it.

I ask you INVAR, will you suffer internally, allowing my mother to live, trying to teach and promote the struggle of light in this Babylon, or will you suffer eternity by shooting the problem.

In your fanatical patriotism (I do strongly support patriotism) please remember who washed the feet of the sinner, and who stoned them. Major difference INVAR. This has nothing to do with elitism, or the support of, this has everything to do with the fight against the ignorance of the "tried and true" method of shooting the problem.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 04, 1999.

(for educational purposes only)

For history is to the nation rather as memory is to the individual. As an individual is deprived of memory becomes disoriented & lost, not knowing where he has been or where he is going, so a nation denied a conception of it's past will be disabled in dealing with it's present and it's future. As the means to defining national identity, history becomes a means of shaping history. The writing of history then turns from a meditation into a weapon. "Who controls the past controls the future," runs the party slogan in George Orwell's 1984; "who controls the present controls the past."

Excerpt taken from: The Disuniting of America by: Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., 1991

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), August 04, 1999.

Mr. Wright,

What you just responded with was utter horseshit.

Where, in ANYTHING I have ever posted on this forum since last year suggested SHOOTING a helpless, hard working person like your mother? You're a sick bastard to even suggest that. I made it no secret that those seeking to help themselves to my generosity in the event of civil chaos would be shot, or those seeking to harm myself or family receive same treatment. Never have I remotely suggested we just shoot everyone because they have become fat and apathetic.

What I do mean, is that if our people, including myself, my mother, your mother, your cousins are brought to ruin because of the myriad sins this nation has levied of which I have already laid out in detail on this thread...then it is well-deserved. If North Korea or China nukes the West coast...then we deserve it, for allowing our elected officials to make deals of death at the expense of our national security. If Y2K causes a complete financial and infrastructure collapse resulting in the deaths of millions, then we will deserve it...because no one would heed the warnings or prepare to survive by themselves without the gods of this age.

NO ONE I've ever heard or read, and myself included Mr. Wright is suggesting we murder your mother because she is perhaps an apathetic American, oblivious to our history and our plight.

What I am saying is....well, have you ever heard the saying: "Now they've made their bed of roses...and must therefore sleep in it"?

THAT's what I'm saying Mr. Wright. Don't you dare accuse me of suggesting anyone shoot someone for just being ignorant.

>>>"I propose INVAR, that YOU want to hear the smooth easy things. Do you not offer a smooth easy solution to my mother's ignorant apathy? Yes INVAR, you offer the final solution, Hitler's solution. If you don't agree, shoot it,"<<<<<<

Abject and unadulterated bullshit you asshole!!!!! There is NOTHING, I REPEAT NOTHING which has grieved my heart more than watching this country slide into the pit of apathy, debauchery and slavery. I take no delight in the hardships to come, as I will have to suffer right along with the apathetic millions who have brought the misery on.

The only "final solution" I ever suggested was for the nation to change its heart, repent and turn back to God - or face the full measure of what we have sown over the last 40 years of debauchery and complacency...for which I was excoriated and ridiculed.

>>>>"I ask you INVAR, will you suffer internally, allowing my mother to live, trying to teach and promote the struggle of light in this Babylon, or will you suffer eternity by shooting the problem"<<<<

I have no power over whether your mother lives or dies. It is only by her own hand in preparation or that of God that will decide that. As far as teaching and promoting the struggle of light....these people don't want to hear it. They have hardened their hearts and are filled with self. They will reap what they have sown.

>>>"In your fanatical patriotism (I do strongly support patriotism)"<<<

Fanatical? I guess the Founders and the pilgrims would be considered 'fanatics' by your standards. I count myself in good company.

>>>"please remember who washed the feet of the sinner, and who stoned them. Major difference INVAR. This has nothing to do with elitism, or the support of, this has everything to do with the fight against the ignorance of the "tried and true" method of shooting the problem. "<<<<

Once again, this is horseshit. I'm not suggesting we shoot anyone. What I see is the nation shooting itself in the head for our embracement of ideologies hostile to our freedom. As far as your comparison of this problem to Jesus washing the feet of the Disciples to those that saught to throw stones on the condemned sinner...more scriptural misunderstanding.

This passage IS NOT an exhortation NOT TO JUDGE. We are charged with judging. Judging right from wrong, good from evil...to judge fruits. Jesus wasn't telling them not to judge her...it was proven that indeed she was an adultress, but that in their self-righteous desire to enact the letter of the law, they needed to look at themselves to see whether or not they measured up to the law. You also must understand that that episode was a test by the Pharisees and Scribes to trap Jesus into acknowledging their superiority in handing down the Law.

Also notice he did not remove any other consequences that may have befallen her from the affair...she was simply spared the death penalty because the others so eager to enact the penalty for breaking the Law, did not put themselves into the same picture. He told her to 'go and sin no more". I guarantee you that if she did, and was caught...the consequence was her death by stoning. She received a warning.

In the context of this nation and your mother, the consequences of the apathy and hedonism of our nation being fully warned and ignored, will rightly deserve the consequences we have stored-up for ourselves.

That does not mean I'm planning on shooting your mother, unless she comes crawling into my house with a ravenous band of thugs.

Shame on you sir, for suggesting I intone genocide. What idiocy.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

Yes, the mother, too, if she says to the Feds "I've 'played by the rules; I'm a good little sheep' -- and INVAR hasn't and isn't -- he's a 'hoarder'. It's not 'right' that he has all that food and I have none. Since I'm a 'good' person, I would never rob INVAR, myself, personally, but you, as government 'need to do something (i.e., rob him for me).' "

The sheep are long overdue for whatever misfortune comes their way, even those so-called 'good people'.

-- A (A@AisA.com), August 04, 1999.

INVAR (gundark@sw.net): AMEN. I wish I had time to say more. Excellent words! Regards, Rich

-- R. Geldreich (richgel@voicenet.com), August 04, 1999.

My...I'm amazed at how the original topic moved along to discussions of Lincoln and religion.

I have only one question and it is to INVAR: Last summer, I believe, there was some discussion on a political board regarding the different versions of the bible. I was somewhat surprised to find so many varieties, as I was only familiar with the St. James version. If you think it not too personal, would you be so kind as to relate the version you choose for reference? If you DO find the question too personal, feel free not to respond or simply state that I'm getting too personal.

-- Anita (spoonera@msn.com), August 04, 1999.

INVAR

Ummmm sir , you are ignorant of WHY the first comers came here from England and Europe. Bullshit revisionist history brainwashed us to think that the Pilgrims and Puritans came from England to escape forced religion. That is a spun false hood.

According to the writings of William Bradford, John Robinson, John Winthrop, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather and a host of other Pilgrim, Puritan and Quaker settlers of the 1600's, they left England because the Church of England had become corrupt and slothful in their views of religion. They therefore wanted to return to a more pure life of religion as intended by scripture..and thus SEPARATED from the Church of England whereby they were regarded as fanatics and persecuted as the "separatists". In other words....they seceeded from the union of the Church of England, and fled here to practice their calling and worship in purity.

Forgive me my silliness, but how is that so terribly different? Did the Pilgims come to America to enjoy the freedom to practice their religion as they saw fit, or not?

And if this is true, (which it is) why should your own rather narrow definition of "proper" religious morality be subjected upon unwilling participants?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 04, 1999.

Anita,

It's not too personal a request at all. Because of improper translations of words and phrases from the Hebrew and Greek into the various English versions we have of scripture....I am referencing pretty much all of them, to get to the closest meaning and intent written in the original language. I use the KJ version, the New King James, The Revised Standard, The Moffat translation, the Inductive Study of the American Standard, Naves Topical, Strongs Exhaustive Concordance with Greek and Chaldee dictionaries, Greek and Hebrew lexicons, various biblical history encyclopedias and even Catholic Encyclopedias (though I'm not Catholic). The only translations which I avoid and conside poor are the NIV (New International Version) and The Book, which is crap because of the great liberties they took to put our modern morality into the text.

Seeking truth is like panning for gold. In my study of scripture, it's kind of like checking out various newspaper stories of the same event to get to the most accurate depiction of the story.

Unc,

We spar again.

Contrary to popular revisionist history, the Pilgrims, Puritans and Quakers were not PURSUED by the Church of England to be forced into doctrinal compliance as the Church of Rome had been doing. The Church of England had become a lazy, slothful, complacent, watered-down church used by the Royals as a tool to further political ambition and endearment of subjects. The Pilgrims and Puritans decided to SEPARATE from them to practice a much stricter religion and worship system. They even still considered themselves subject to the Anglican Church as their Soveriegn, provided the Church repented and changed, whereby they expected (early on) to return to the fold.

And Unc, I'm not forcing my religious views on anyone, I'm merely stating them. No different than the Pilgrims and Puritans themselves that didn't FORCE their beliefs on anyone...but if you wanted to be a part of their community, then you WILLINGLY subjucated yourself to their beliefs and practices, that they would be ONE BODY and MIND, and thereby survive and prosper.

If you don't like my views or beliefs, fine. Not my problem, I'm not in the business of converting anyone...that's God's business. I'm merely stating boldly my beliefs and convictions openly...take them or leave them, I don't care. But I would encourage all to not take my word for what I wrote, but to research it and prove it for yourself. THAT's where real conviction comes from. Most folk don't even bother to ask why they believe what they do, or what they've been taught.

God said to "Prove all things....hold fast to that which is good".

So that's exactly what I did, and why I state what I do unapologetically. Find out where our traditions both religious and historical come from...and what was meant and intended from the writings of those that lived the history you are studying about.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

Excellent points by many. I will join the ranks by reminding everyone, that we citizens have always and will continue to have a serious responsibility toward the events that unfold within our own government, as the potential for serious disruption draws near. It IS *OUR* government, after all. At least that was the original intent, we lost it and it must be reclaimed. Y2K *may* afford this possibility. This responsibility has been criminally ignored by the citizens of this great land, for FAR too long. Stupid shall get exactly what STUPID has ignored. Some of us are unwilling to swallow this bitter pill any longer. As events unfold, Americans may choose to unite in an effort to correct these crimes or they may decide to sit back from the safety of their homes and allow those with more courage to persue the needed corrections *for them*. There will be no other decision made, which would fall 'in between'.

It's one thing to watch a war from the safety of your recliner, TV tray before you. It's quite another when the battle is raging up the street from you. There will be ONLY two sides to this conflict. Those who will defend the Constitution and those who have different ideas or no spine whatsoever, who will not. No grey area. No political parties. Americans or not. Patriots or not. In or out. Up or down. Right or wrong. For the MANY amoung us who love to blather about all the different shades of grey which fall between black and white, a decision must be made to lead, follow or get out of the way.

The only 'innocent' people in this, are children and even children know right from wrong. *ALL* others are active, responsible participants who must take full credit for the current state of their 'garden' and begin to weed and cultivate their dying plot, in order to provide for the 'innocent'.

The vote is as broken as the code. The time has come to take full responsibility for our mistakes. I pray we shall act as Americans, united, and I KNOW I am not alone in feeling this way! May those who share this view, hold tight to the determination, wisdom, strength, courage, honor, ethics, valor, dignity, and moral character that they will be called upon to display in the months or years ahead! Thank God for the Patriots amoung us and God bless this country!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 04, 1999.

Excellent and Amen Will.

I only fear there are no patriots anymore...just self-absorbed, conditioned wards of the state that will be led to loathe those that DO pursue our birthright.

Americans are in a "consuming" not "fighting" mood.

Don't expect what you rightly have hoped for.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

"I do not play the elitist game of "Show your intelligence by demonstrating your open mind" crap. I do not compromise my beliefs. I do not subscribe to "gray areas". Life is black and white, right and wrong, good and evil."

These hilarious assertions crystalize Invar's contracted, bigoted, painfully stupid mindset all too aptly.

Priceless!

-- Celia Thaxter (celiathaxter@yahoo.com), August 04, 1999.

Thanks for sharing Celia. You have joined the ranks on this thread who have provided an excellent example of why our government is stockpiling cases of Vaseline in Mt. Weather.

I suppose we won't be counting on you. Keep that recliner warm, sister!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 04, 1999.

Thanks, Will Continue, I'm delighted to contribute. In fact, I'm absolutely in stitches. I relish observing a foul-mouthed racist hang himself by his own patent buffoonery. Invar is a bullying mountebank whose stupendously circumscribed cries make for high comedy.

Or am I simply the victim of..."scriptural misunderstanding"?

-- Celia Thaxter (celiathaxter@yahoo.com), August 04, 1999.

Celia,

"Bigoted, painfully stupid mindset" huh? Well thank you. You prove just how divided and stupified we are as a nation.

You self-ascribed elitist scum just HATE anyone with convictions. It really burns you doesn't it?

I find your like repugnant and a disgrace.

You will make a great slave.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

INVAR wrote:

You self-ascribed elitist scum just HATE anyone with convictions.

Pot, please meet Kettle.

-- anti-INVAR (hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 04, 1999.

Yes, Mr. Kettle. Amazing that you people equate an immovable belief due to conviction as hypocrisy.

One more thing Celia,

It must feel wonderful for you to get on your elistist intelligencia soapbox, and laugh in the face of one whose beliefs match those of the Founders and Settlers of this nation.

You might as well spit on their writings and scoff at their feeble- minded bigoted beliefs...and stamp underfoot the scriptures while you're at it decrying with high humor those that take it seriously. Take solace in knowing you are not alone, as most Americans probably agree with you, and will willingly join you in proclaiming their hatred and ridicule of my beleifs. Good. I stand in good company.

This is because you hate the truth I posted above, and it BOTHERS you that anyone can be so immovable in their arguments. You place honor and value on how much a person is willing to compromise and accept ALL thoughts and viewpoints as long as they agree with your convoluted views. Hypocrisy of the highest order, your type of scum are the MOST intolerant of all. Just look how you people react when someone posts something that isn't politically correct or accepted mainstream thought.

Because you hate what I openly state...you ridicule and persecute me to elevate your debased ideology without challenging one point or historical fact I posted above.

Go ahead and laugh, ridicule, scorn and decry. It makes the judgement about to come down on your heads all the more justified.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

INVAR,

You are one of the reasons I own guns. Your way is the one true way - there can be no disagreement. Your OPINION'S are not OPINION to you, they are TRUTH and all who disagree are worthy only of judgement and damnation - or worse.

To me, you sound just like the left-wing loonies that think they know how everone should live.

And yes, you are a hypocrite. You claim to be a Christian but you are one of the most foul-mouthed people on this forum. I'm sure Jesus would approve of your methods...

-- anti-INVAR (hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 04, 1999.

Oh give it a rest already!

Based on what you just wrote, you would gun down the Pilgrims because they held an immovable doctrine of beliefs, and you're sore because in order to abide with them you'd have to adopt those beliefs.

I don't give a rats ass if you agree with my ideology or not. You don't live under my roof, so you can believe and do whatever your heart desires so long as it doesn't infringe on me and mine....which is why I own guns.

You are free to pursue your beliefs and practices and state them as much as I am free to do the same. And without compromise. You disagree with mine, and I yours...oh well.

But I will point out for you hypocrite, that of the myriad religious posts on this board from Jews, Buddists, Catholics, Bob Dobbs, Wiccans and Zen Masters...NEVER have I ridiculed, scorned, laughed at or debased their beliefs as "cultish", "Bigoted", "Intolerant", "Racist", or any other such derrision such as you and Celia and others do mine. I may disagree with them, and point out my belief or understanding...but NEVER have I slammed their beliefs as you have slammed mine, simply because you think they are intolerant.

>>>" To me, you sound just like the left-wing loonies that think they know how everone should live."<<<<

It 'aint what I think. It's what God thinks that decides how I should live. I know how God intended us to live...but we aren't a theocracy now are we? You can live and do however you so desire, you have that freedom. That doesn't however rescind my right to decry what is clearly sinful and just plain wrong though either. For God commands us to: "Cry aloud, spare not, lift your voice like a trumpet and declare to the House of Israel the sin of My people".

What you cannot stand is that I am so cocksure about my convictions...and am unwilling to be either silent, or to accept others' views as correct if they fall into opposition with mine. Oh well, too bad.

>>>>"And yes, you are a hypocrite. You claim to be a Christian but you are one of the most foul-mouthed people on this forum. I'm sure Jesus would approve of your methods..."<<<<

How ignorant you are. According to Roman and Jewish Record (Josephus in particular) note that Jesus Himself was considered most foul mouthed and disrespectful of the Sanhedren and the Pharisaical leadership of Palestine. Essentially He was set-up and crucified for His cursings and debasements of the Jewish leadership of Jerusalem...because He was attracting a large following of poor and commoners. The Second Temple cleansing wherin He threw out the corrupt moneychangers was the last straw for them.

What cursings come from my posts are no less than those cursings of Christ in scripture...as he called things what they were. He called the Pharisees Hypocrites, snakes and demons, he called Satan what he was...so spare me on what you consider is a "good" Christian. Our modern version of Christianity has absolutely NOTHING in common with the First Century Church except in name only. And I can care less if you're offended by that statement....research the history to see whether or not what I said is so.

And for posting these convictions...the flames will grow on me yet hotter.....

Oh well.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

"The vote is as broken as the code"

Accurate and succinct. Thanks WC.

-- DaveW (dwood@southwind.net), August 04, 1999.

I can't help but wonder which side the 'word patrol' will take. Any other special interest groups care to weigh in? How about the Humane society? I believe the term 'rat's ass' needs further investigation. Do any of you messenger assasins have an actual view on what we may be facing in relation to Y2K and our current ruling dynasty?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 04, 1999.

Your statement, INVAR: Contrary to your view Mr. Wright, a misguided population DOES deserve to die, because THEY are the ones who have let down their guard and have lost their vigillance...

So you apparently don't believe you should shoot R. Wright's mother personally; you merely think she "deserves to die". Not a lot of difference there, in my mind. To you, she's guilty because she has not had the "fortune" of having been converted to your highness's version of religion, politics, history--indeed your personal reality.

You seem to think that there is some sort of righteousness in being able to perceive all things as either "black or white". Let me tell you something INvar, people with small minds sometimes get big boosts for their big egos by believing that they have finally SIMPLIFIED life, religion, politics, and all other aspects of life, which can seem so complicated to us mere mortals, into BLACK AND WHITE. It's so easy to know everything is you merely "run in circles, scream and shout when in doubt" or when someone who is willing to examine all sides of an issue disagrees with you. Yes, INVAR, there really are many perspectives to most complicated situations. Too bad your mind is too simplistic to consider more than the one you have decided is god's will. But you don't know god's will; you only know what you have heard or read about god's will. Or, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you sit at god's left hand, and receive all your information directly. Right.

You say, "This nation's generosity comes from no less the Golden Rule.." It may surprise you to know that the golden rule is my credo, INVAR. I'll restate it so you won't think I have been duped in this by my public school education: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I suspect you will find fault with this, as your bible was written by god himself, and mine was written by some "revisionist asshole". Nevertheless, is the meaning close enough for you to accept? To me, what the golden rule means is don't lay your TRIP on someone else. Live and let live. If a mexican immigrant wants to celebrate the El Dia de Los Muertos, fine, as long as they don't drag me down there to the cementario against my will. I even support letting narrow minded bigots such as yourself write simplistic bigoted bullshit, as long as you don't personally go out shooting people, such as Wright's mother, my mother (another person denied access to your great wisdom) and all of the other members of the human race who happen to disagree with some or all of your ravings.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), August 04, 1999.

jumpoffjoe......Is Mrs. Wright willing to take her share of responsibility for the state of our current government? Is the Mexican immigrant an American or does this person simply want access to our perks and privileges as American citizens. My brother and I play the bagpipes in full regalia (regimental, no less). WE ARE AMERICANS. My children speak English and I have no intention of petitioning our government (State or Federal) to provide Gaelic instruction in our public school systems. There is not ONE SINGLE member of my family who would not put their lives on the line for the preservation of this country's constitution, many, many have and I do not see this tradition ceasing in the future. There are many immigrants aside from those who have arrived in the past 10 years, in this country. Grow up. Many of them have a far better understanding of what this country *truely* stands for and the foundation it was built upon, than peons like you and some of the others who have chimed in on the 'kill the messenger' bandwagon!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), August 04, 1999.

INVAR wrote:

Oh give it a rest already!

I could say the same to you, INVAR.

Based on what you just wrote, you would gun down the Pilgrims because they held an immovable doctrine of beliefs, and you're sore because in order to abide with them you'd have to adopt those beliefs.

If they tried to force their beliefs on me, then yes, I would shoot them. Just as I would expect them to shoot me if I tried to force my beliefs on them. But we're not talking about Pilgrims, we're talking about YOU.

I don't give a rats ass if you agree with my ideology or not. You don't live under my roof, so you can believe and do whatever your heart desires so long as it doesn't infringe on me and mine....which is why I own guns.

Thank you for your permission. I feel so much better now.

You are free to pursue your beliefs and practices and state them as much as I am free to do the same. And without compromise. You disagree with mine, and I yours...oh well.

Oh, you are rich! You want to state your opinions and ridicule others when they disagree but when they fight back your cry "Oh give it a rest"!

But I will point out for you hypocrite, that of the myriad religious posts on this board from Jews, Buddists, Catholics, Bob Dobbs, Wiccans and Zen Masters...NEVER have I ridiculed, scorned, laughed at or debased their beliefs as "cultish", "Bigoted", "Intolerant", "Racist", or any other such derrision such as you and Celia and others do mine. I may disagree with them, and point out my belief or understanding...but NEVER have I slammed their beliefs as you have slammed mine, simply because you think they are intolerant.

I never said that you did ridicule peoples religious beliefs. But you do call people "elitist scum" (among other things) when they don't agree with you. And you sure don't like it when it's thrown back at you. :-D

>>>" To me, you sound just like the left-wing loonies that think they know how everone should live."<<<<

It 'aint what I think. It's what God thinks that decides how I should live. I know how God intended us to live...but we aren't a theocracy now are we? You can live and do however you so desire, you have that freedom. That doesn't however rescind my right to decry what is clearly sinful and just plain wrong though either. For God commands us to: "Cry aloud, spare not, lift your voice like a trumpet and declare to the House of Israel the sin of My people".

BWAHAHAHA! Oh please! Here we go again with your "they're not my opinions, they're gods truth." Spare me. You can scream that B.S. to the rafters but it aint gonna wash with me.

What you cannot stand is that I am so cocksure about my convictions...and am unwilling to be either silent, or to accept others' views as correct if they fall into opposition with mine. Oh well, too bad.

No, what I can't stand is that you are a hypocrite.

>>>>"And yes, you are a hypocrite. You claim to be a Christian but you are one of the most foul-mouthed people on this forum. I'm sure Jesus would approve of your methods..."<<<<

How ignorant you are. According to Roman and Jewish Record (Josephus in particular) note that Jesus Himself was considered most foul mouthed and disrespectful of the Sanhedren and the Pharisaical leadership of Palestine. Essentially He was set-up and crucified for His cursings and debasements of the Jewish leadership of Jerusalem...because He was attracting a large following of poor and commoners. The Second Temple cleansing wherin He threw out the corrupt moneychangers was the last straw for them.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh yes, I think I do remember Jesus using words like asshole and bullshit in the bible. And calling people that didn't agree with him "elitist scum". How forgetful of me - Thanks for straightening that out! :-D

What cursings come from my posts are no less than those cursings of Christ in scripture...as he called things what they were. He called the Pharisees Hypocrites, snakes and demons, he called Satan what he was...so spare me on what you consider is a "good" Christian. Our modern version of Christianity has absolutely NOTHING in common with the First Century Church except in name only. And I can care less if you're offended by that statement....research the history to see whether or not what I said is so.

Yep, he called them assholes and elitist scum and other profanity... You are incredible!

And for posting these convictions...the flames will grow on me yet hotter.....

No, the flames come because you are a hypocrite.

Oh well.

Oh well, indeed...

-- anti-INVAR ((hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 04, 1999.

Well said, jumpoffjoe.

You stated it far better that I ever could.

-- anti-INVAR (hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 04, 1999.

"I am INVAR, I fear and hate / I am what once made this country great."

Is that thin screeching sound hot air excreting from your holey hucksterism, Invar? In your Bible, intolerance is a beatitude.

Why not spare us the fradulent inanities and go peddle your stumpy fanaticism where the sheep will swallow it wholesale.

Any thinking person can see right through you, Invartebrate.

-- Celia Thaxter (celiathaxter@yahoo.com), August 04, 1999.

Though I am not exactly a big INVAR fan, I will agree with his point about one thing. Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites, and yes, in those days, calling a Pharisee a hypocrite was about as bad as you could get.

The interesting part is, that Jesus called them that because they kept the letter of the law, while missing the spirit of the law. You see, they KNEW what God wanted, they were cocksure and full of conviction about this.....hey, wait a minute, why does that remind me of something. Hmmmmmmm.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 04, 1999.

Mindblowing idiocy out there...truly.

So Mr. jumpoffjoe Thought Police, because I think that those that suffer and are destroyed because of our national malaise, that is equivalent to pulling a trigger? Please. Don't embarrass yourself further.

If we are nuked, bio-bombed or collapse financially and culturally due to our blind greed, avarice and carelessness...we are all collectively responsible as a people charged with the duty of maintaining our republic. Yes, your mother and my mother included.

As far as the reply posts of Celia and Anti- above...pearls before swine. You are all too ignorant of history both biblical and national to even continue debate.

Get a clue on history from those that wrote it, before you even spew your ignorant bullshit as intelligence here. You know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of what you speak other than your blind tradition.

If I'm a racist, bigoted, intolerant hypocrite, because of my views in your opinions, then fine. So be it. Amen.

The exact same things were said of the early Christians and the early settlers of this nation.

I'm in good company.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

Quick correction Unc,

It wasn't a matter of KNOWING what God wanted....they put more stock and emphasis on the tradition of the Talmudic laws than in the plain law of scripture. They put Talmudic law into place to keep Judah from going into captivity again. They "improved" the Law so that no one could possibly break the Commandments and statutes of God.

The Pharisees and Scribes of the Sanhedrin that were the Roman/granted civil authority in Judea at the time of Christ, prided themselves on seeing the execution of the Talmudic Law, which was much more burdensome than the Law found in the Septuigant [sp?]. Which is why Jesus went bezerk saying "Woe to you that set aside the Commandment of God in order to keep your tradition!" (Mk 7:9)

They were convicted of their own tradition and their own place in power...NOT the Word of God.

Big dif Unc.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

INVAR: This is an interesting thread and I see good points being made in more than one direction. But what you must realize is that it's not the 1700's anymore. Now, if you prefer to actually return to the living conditions of the early settlers, y2k just might afford you that opportunity. However, the majority of folks on this forum would like to see an alternative way out, with as little bloodshed as possible. Now, you've heard me argue the logic behind the "tribe > city-state > nation > world government" progression before, so I'm not going to belabor the point. What I will say though, is that Uncle Deedah and the others here have valid points: we cannot go back. We must go forward. When the Puritans that you speak of were confronted by unlivable repression in England, they didn't try to go backwards, they chose to create something new; something that could adapt to the changing influences of modern society; something that could be driven by the economics of a free market and the politics of a democracy.

My point is that if you look to the past for all of your answers you will come up short. We must evolve our thought processes in order to avoid species extinction - there is no other way in this day and age when we have the population and technology levels as high as they are now. One way or the other, this planet will not have nuclear weapons in 100 years.

-- a (a@a.a), August 04, 1999.

INVAR wrote:

As far as the reply posts of Celia and Anti- above...pearls before swine. You are all too ignorant of history both biblical and national to even continue debate.

*sigh*

So be it, INVAR.

I bow before your big brain and higher intelligence.

If only I had studied more in school! Damn! ;-)

-- anti-INVAR (hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 04, 1999.

--a,

You speak of the past as though it is some great evil. We are supposed to learn from the lessons of history that we might not repeat the mistakes...is this not so?

I have no desire to go back to the hard life of our early forefathers. The toll on life was incredible. Lifespans were generally in the late 30's.

I'm not suggesting we go backwards, except to know from whence we came and how far removed from the original intent of liberty we are, lest we forget and take for granted the very blood, sweat, sacrifice and tears of those that forged this nation.

Is all change and adaption of the last 50 years good? Where are our dependencies? What is our present foundation? With the birth of technology and convenience, has our society not become more complex and dangerous? Is there not greater evil in the form of weapons that can eradicate most of mankind? Moving forward without hinging that growth on our foundational underpinnings and intent can lead to destruction.

Which is what we are faced with today. Be it Y2K civil collapse, the Chinese, Osama Bin-Laden, N. Korea or another crackpot terrorist.

We don't look to the past for answers...we look to the past to know our heritage and our purpose, and if possible avoid the mistakes that led to hardship.

Evolving thought processees is not a reality. We are plagued with the same problems that those civilizations were plagued with 6,000 years ago: greed, jealousy, envy, strife, lusting, anger and malice. Our technology just makes the fruits of man's problems more dangerous.

There is nothing new under the sun.

God is the same yesterday today and forever.

Just because we change, doesn't mean history, scripture or definitions of condition should.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

INVAR

Is all change and adaption of the last 50 years good? Where are our dependencies? What is our present foundation? With the birth of technology and convenience, has our society not become more complex and dangerous? Is there not greater evil in the form of weapons that can eradicate most of mankind? Moving forward without hinging that growth on our foundational underpinnings and intent can lead to destruction.

Which is what we are faced with today. Be it Y2K civil collapse, the Chinese, Osama Bin-Laden, N. Korea or another crackpot terrorist.

Proof positive, in your own words, that we, as Americans, need to find common ground. Bickering over what parts of which religious book is to be the ruling morality maker does not further that goal. One of the great lessons of the Second World War is that there is strength in diversity united towards a common goal. I suggest that we should revisit that idea and in so doing, make this a better country, rather than straying from it, and tearing ourselves apart.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 04, 1999.

Unc,

Granted and Amen.

But I will offer that we are divided PRECISELY because of the politically correct ideology that points out diversity and celebrates it in the face of everyone else. Diversity is NOT our strength, being ONE people with ONE goal and purpose under God is.

That does not mean giving up or watering-down your individual beliefs or culture. Those you keep strong in your community and home.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

INVAR wrote:

[snip]Diversity is NOT our strength, being ONE people with ONE goal and purpose under God is.[snip]

But you can't define what that will be for the rest of us, INVAR. Nor can I. Therein lies the problem.

The fact of the matter is that we ARE diverse.

You're just gonna have to deal with that fact. :-/

Your contempt of those who disagree with you won't make matters any better for you.

And finally, you may find this hard to believe but I do wish you well.

Sincerely,

-- Done with this debate (formerly anti-INVAR) (hypocrites@pot.kettle.black.com), August 04, 1999.

wow, I just found this thread...missed it initially I guess. I'll have to print it out to read everything. Anyway, regardless of point of view, the fact that the debate can occur is something to be cherished : )

Before I read everything one point jumped out at me.

Invar wrote in response to the following snip...

>>>>"Which particular Indians recognized this and what evidence of that do you have?"<<<

Many Indian Nations had prophecies and visions that the Great Spirit was giving the land to the "White Settlers". Read their myriad writings. There are Hopi premonitions and Cherokee dreams written down as to the destiny of the "Whites". My wife tells of her grandmother's (100% Chickesaw) stories of their ancestors' belief that the European settlers were to be given the land by the Great Spirit, and that they would be blessed in co-habitating with them. I have a book in mind, but the title and author escape me at the moment. But there are writings and histories of Indians that recognized the hand of God in the destiny of the White Settlers.

It's true that Hopi actually had prophecies regarding Manifest Destiny and the White settlers. I'm not sure they appreciated the fact that the White man came nor am I sure that they ever intended on "handing over" the land nor that they ever "recognized the hand of God in the destiny of the White Settlers."

The fact is that Indians weren't Christians and therefore this premise is a little arrogant. I believe "Mother Earth" and the "Creator" would be terms the Indians would use. Others, more in the know, correct me please.

Getting back to Hopi Prophecy. You should do some research into the current age we are entering. It's called "the Purification".

We may well have had "Manifest Destiny" but according to Indian philosophy, no one ever "owns" the land. It'll be here long after we stop walking this earth. And, in the end and with the "Purification", you can understand why it is that the Indian perspective is motivational. They are "waiting" for the return of their ancestors. They are a very patient people. The Hopi Prophecies alone go back long before the White man ever settled on this continent. In essence, they say our rise and fall long before we ever got here.

Talk about shivers up the spine.

Great discussion. I love to read and learn based upon the perspectives shared and there is such great knowledge here. I have serious questions as to if we truly live in a representative democracy anymore. I think a little revolution is actually long overdue and it's always puzzled me that people can think about our country as if it will be a perpetual entity in time.

Thanks for all the different views.

Mike

===================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), August 04, 1999.

Invar,

you say, "If I'm a racist, bigoted, intolerant hypocrite, because of my views in your opinions, then fine. So be it. Amen.

The exact same things were said of the early Christians and the early settlers of this nation.

I'm in good company."

Perhaps some of the early Christians and early settlers of this nation WERE racist, bigoted, intolerant hypocrites. Does that give you some kind of perverse satisfaction that you are similar to the worst of them?

As for "As far as the reply posts of Celia and Anti- above...pearls before swine. You are all too ignorant of history both biblical and national to even continue debate.", I'd say that in this case it is more like "pearls cast BY swine."

Once again, rather than try to defend your indefensible hate mongering, you accuse your advocates of being too ignorant to debate you (the All Knowing INVAR)

Will Continue says, "jumpoffjoe......Is Mrs. Wright willing to take her share of responsibility for the state of our current government?"

I can't say that I know Mrs. Wright, Will. But I do believe that probably about 85% of the people in this country don't have a clue what's going on here, and their only crime is not being informed. We each do what we can. Many people are not capable of understanding what's going on. Many who think they ARE capable of understanding really don't, because we rely too much on what we see on TeeVee. That does not mean that they deserve to die.

Is the Mexican immigrant an American or does this person simply want access to our perks and privileges as American citizens.

That's a very interesting question, Will. First of all, what do you mean by the word "American"? There are a large number of people who would take offense, not that you'd care, maybe, about the attempted monopolizing of the word to mean a citizen of the US. "America, which comes from Amerigo Vespucci (I know, another one of those damned foreigners). Vespucci is said by some to have landed on the coast of South America (note: this does not mean Florida) in 1497, making him the first European to have reached the American (note: this does not mean United States). Others dispute the date, giving this credit to John Cabot who reached the coast of North America (note: this does not mean Minnesota) a week later. (Note, INVAR, this is another GREY AREA!!!!!--in the lives of us mere mortals, it is often difficult or impossible to prove exactly what THE TRUTH is. Who's to say who was the first to set foot on the American shore (note: this does not mean Jersey City)

Assuming, Will, that by "American" you really mean "U.S. Citizen", I would say that the hypothetical Mexican to whom you refer is either a U.S. citizen (if he has passed his citizenship tests), a legal immigrant, if he has done the paper work to live legally in this country, or an illegal immigrant (if he has merely slipped across the border).

My brother and I play the bagpipes in full regalia (regimental, no less). WE ARE AMERICANS. My children speak English...

I submit that, first, even you, Will, might be inclined to move here from mexico if you wanted to improve your lot, and didn't feel enough patriotism towards your country of origin to stay there with less oportunity than you might find here, and, second, it sounds like you believe that English is the original language of this country,and, therefore, anyone who wants to speak a different language is "unamerican". I believe that there have been many different languages here before English, including Spanish in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California, which were all a part of Mexico (unless I've been misled AGAIN by my public school education, INVAR) before being seized by force by citizens of the U.S. So, Will, your bagpipes and English only speaking ability don't buy you much preference in my book. We were all here after the Indians. I don't personally believe INVAR's far fetched theory (sorry INVARS, I momentarily forgot that you are always right) that the Indians recognized our white superiority, and willingly let us exterminate, relocate, and humiliate them.

and I have no intention of petitioning our government (State or Federal) to provide Gaelic instruction in our public school systems. There is not ONE SINGLE member of my family who would not put their lives on the line for the preservation of this country's constitution, many, many have and I do not see this tradition ceasing in the future. There are many immigrants aside from those who have arrived in the past 10 years, in this country. Grow up. Many of them have a far better understanding of what this country *truely* stands for and the foundation it was built upon, than peons like you and some of the others who have chimed in on the 'kill the messenger' bandwagon!

My children also speak English, Will; so does one my older grandson; that doesn't take any great talent. Some of them also speak Danish or Spanish, which does take a bit of work.

Will, why do you call me a "peon"? I've been called many things, but a peon I am not.

These immigrants,to whom you refer as "other than those who arrived in the last ten years"--Will, do you think they are "Americans"? Are they somehow different than those immigrants who arrived two, three, or nine years ago? We're all human beings (except for INVAR, who is suspected of being a god), and we're all in this mess together. No one gets out of here alive.

JOJ

--

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), August 04, 1999.

>>>"Perhaps some of the early Christians and early settlers of this nation WERE racist, bigoted, intolerant hypocrites. Does that give you some kind of perverse satisfaction that you are similar to the worst of them?"<<<

I count it gladness to be compared with the "worst" of them, as their "worst" by their own writings and definitions would be considered our BEST.

By today's modern PC environemnt, the Pilgrims and Puritans that settled here would be branded all of the above heinous diatribe, and would have been scorned-ridiculed and driven from our shores or to prisons by militarized ATF agents for being "intolerant white separatists".

By that standard of today's idiocy, this nation would have never become what it has.

Yes and please continue to spit and urinate on our nation's heritage and foundation. It is a beautiful testimony against you people that have been so spoiled by wealth and plenty that you have forgotten God and your roots. This thread is a perfect witness to the abject ignorance, sloth and outright rejection of the history and Divine foundation this nation has enjoyed.

Please continue. It solidifies every reason given as to why all who will suffer in the coming hardships will have deserved every bit of it.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), August 04, 1999.

WOW!! I love you people when it get's going, it really get's going. Even you and Paul, INVAR. Got too, too much work to do right now.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), August 05, 1999.