This One's for Andy...

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Andy jokingly asked me in another of his conspiracy threads about being bothered by a comment he made.

No. your comment didn't bother me. Here's what bothers me:

The idea that tabloids and tabloid TV and tabloid websites in the UK, US and Japan are so popular. That conspiracy theories abound for every topic and so many people, watch, read and fall for them. That 'creating' controversy for the sake of controversy gives people (like you) pleasure. That coy, open-ended questions are posed with sinister motives to elicit emotional responses from people.

That statements like this, at the end of the "thing" you posted insinuating that JFK Jr. was killed in yet another conspiracy, are written by modern-day carnival hucksters to increase circulation to sell advertising:

"The circle of proof is complete. Kennedy's craft intentionally was destroyed in mid-air."

Those are things that bother me.

Senator Joseph McCarthy was a decent man compared to John Quinn - the writer of the nonsense you helped spread.

"At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

-- PNG (Peter Gauthier) (png@gol.com), July 31, 1999

Answers

What really bothers me, is people bringing all of their conspiracy theories HERE! If they want to believe them, FINE, but please don't bring them to this board. I don't want Y2K to be lumped together with aliens, the Illuminati, etc. Surely there are forums for that type of thing. PLEASE find them and post your ideas there.

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), July 31, 1999.

Icke

-- icky (conspiracies@R.us), July 31, 1999.

PNG & Gayla,

I agree. Tabloid journalism taints the serious analysis and discussion of Y2K. No doubt the hucksterism is an obstacle that has turned off many.

-- Bill P (porterwn@one.net), July 31, 1999.


This is an interesting topic. I think in criticising "conspiracy theories" we are painting with too broad a brush. Every event, unfortunately, has to be viewed in its entirety and all evidence absorbed. Since this is too difficult for most people, they retreat to one of the following settings on their cognitive cruise control:

Neither approach is likely to be correct. Take the JFK Jr. plane accident: doesn't seem to be much credible evidence that it was anything other than an accident.

The JFK (Sr) assasination is another story. There is overwhelming evidence that this was a right-wing, high level group hit. Absolutely overwhelming evidence. And I say this as libertarian who despises the Kennedy liberal legacy. Anyway, ask the average American about it - they regard Oswald as the poster boy and patron saint of "lone, crazed gunmen". Every case must be independently evaluated based on available evidence. There is no other responsible position.

-- Ct Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), July 31, 1999.


Gayla,

Andy has previously posted that the reason that he likes to post his favored notions here is not because they are appropriate here, but that here is where the action is.

Ct Vronsky,

While the "magic bullet" of the JFK assassination is as phoney as the dissapearing bullet of the Vince Foster killing, I find it difficult to imagine that a "right-wing, high level group" would willingly precipitate a Lyndon Johnson Presidency.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), August 01, 1999.



Are we ever gonna know? Don't you feel a little bit (or a lot) of our country was stolen from us? Not primarily by the death of a politician, but by the lying and coverup that has likely gone on for 36 years.

What is the resolution point?

Will we know before we die?

What is the starting point again of US history if we were to know?

-- Thirteen (years@November.22.1963), August 01, 1999.


Peter - bullshit. Be an ostrich if you like. Accept, digest and kow tow to the mainstream media view of the world, it's your choice. There is no such thing as a stupid question - and it's fair game to question the death of this man in very suspicious circumstances. Seems to me Peter that you have no sense of decency to blindly accept the media spin over this tragedy.

"You must remember that in the intelligence world, every truth is part lie and every lie is based on some truth. If you try to separate the two, you will only wind up confused and frustrated. If you are an outsider, you will slowly learn that there IS no separation of the two.. ... the lies and the truth are just two of the many sides of the same ever flipping coin. If you are an insider, you will slowly and often painfully learn that sometimes the coin lands by chance, sometimes the way it lands is rigged by you,ll never know whom, and that sometimes there is not even a coin at all.

If you are lucky and work hard, you will find some of the truth. If you are lucky and work REALLY hard, you might find the WHOLE truth...as someone wants you to know it. If you are PHENOMENALLY lucky and really work your tail off, you might even go on to find the REAL truth. But no outsiders....and in fact, very few insiders ever...EVER...learn the WHOLE REAL truth.

All assumptions are wrong."

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 01, 1999.


I've been actively studying a few conspiracy issues for many years now and frankly I often wish I'd never even opened the box. What I have learned, though, is that you eventually may find some truth but don't ever expect it to set you free !

-- Yan (no@no.no), August 01, 1999.

From Joe L. Jordan

Here is what we know:

The plane is similar to the old "Cherokee Six" which is a very reliable aircraft. It's counterpart in a car would be a Chevy suburban. It is a pussycat to fly and you would virtually have to force it into a stall.

It was equipped with a radar transponder that would transmit a 4- digit ID code and the altitude to any enquiring approach control radar. That's how they identified the plane and its very rapid descent,5,000 feet in a minute or two(Similar to TWA 800).

The Textron/Lycoming 6-cylinder engine has had some trouble with wrist pin caps coming loose and taking out the engine in flight. Even if it did, the plane could ahve gone into a slow glide and made a soft-water landing.

There was no mayday or voice radio communication indicating trouble. The plane had a 406 mhz satellite distress beacon which woukld have notified FAA at once along with exact latitude and longitude. This device must be activated by the pilot. It is not automatic. This leads one to believe that there was a sudden and catastrophic occurence leaving no time for calls for assistance.

The fact that a severed wheel and a headrest have been retrieved indicate the airframe and cabin are disentegrated. Even if the plane had made a hard-water crash, the wings would have been torn off but the landing gear and the cabin,though crumpled, should be intact. When the Challenger went down, the cabin was intact as were the the bodies.

Although JFK did not file a flight plan, he could have been under close surveillance(as Diana was in her final days) and a plan for his elimination could have been on the shelf waiting for implementation. It is rumored that the NWO will kick in at Y2k and they are slowly eliminating any personages who could rally the country to prevent the takeover.

The rapid descent and no distress call are consistent with a stinger or sidewinder shootdown or an on-board bomb with a descending- altuitude pressure trigger(He was descending and on approach to the yard)

It seems strange that Clinton has not already dispatched Navy salvage vessels which easily locate the wreckage. It is perhaps they are somewhere crashing a similar plane to have "Wreckage" to bring up that doesn't show missile or bomb damage.

This event is very strange. The plane was brand new, equipped with every conceivable device and there was no turbulence, rain or gusty winds.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 01, 1999.


PNG & CT Vronsky,

Glad to see some real "Thinking" Men.

I, for one, applaud your ability to "distingiush" your Media with an Open Mind.

Hope your Preps are going well or DONE.

Father

-- Thomas G. Hale (hale.tg@att.net), August 01, 1999.



Barry Chamish, an Israeli Journalist writes the following about JFK JR. in his article on the assassination of Rabin and the price many have paid for talking about it.

First the excerpt related to JFK Jr.:

So now what do we do about the information coming out on the explosion of JFK Jr.'s plane? The day it happened I wrote that JFK Jr. was doing more than any other American media figure to get to the bottom of the Rabin assassination truth. I reminded readers that his magazine George ran a 13 page expose of the Shabak's involvement in the assassination. I suggested that this was a brave but risky stand.

Then came the tidal wave of data. The FBI Preliminary Report confirming the bomb on the plane and noting the type of explosive was used by certain foreign intelligence services. This was followed by Catherine Crier of Fox TV's The Crier Report, announcing that JFK Jr. was about to meet high ranking Mossad officers to get the full story on the Rabin assassination. Then Maariv ran an interview with JFK's chauffeur, who happens to be Israeli. Then people started noting that Barak was in Washington at the time of Kennedy's finale in life.

So radio shows from America starting calling asking me to investigate a possible Mossad hit. They observe that the chauffeur was in a position to plant a bomb in JFK Jr.'s luggage... That Barak had an interest in preventing Kennedy from finding out the truth of Rabin's murder. And on and on and deeper and deeper.

Will I pursue this line? Is this beyond my intention of reforming my nation and finally reaching the ugly point of wrecking it...Of feeding every anti-semite's wildest fantasies...Of justifying every anti-Zionist diatribe ever written...Of handing our Arab enemies the very weapon they've been seeking to crush us into the sand???????

I've always believed that truth is good by its nature and a lie is bad by its. I've suffered losses by pursuing one truth: what really happened to Yitzhak Rabin on Nov.4/95. I cannot make the same living from my conventional business writing because of Rabin. My family life is much tenser than it would have been without Rabin. A certain segment of Jewry despises me for what I am doing to their view of Rabin's saintliness.

But the gains are real as well. I have the admiration of the most dedicated Zionists. I enjoy status and respect from the Israelis I most respect. And they always turn out when I lecture. And they take, sometimes, scary risks to find vital documents for me. And there are more and more people like them every day. I can't let these people down.

And I think I will if I pursue the Kennedy line. If the Crier report is right, and if the FBI Preliminary Report isn't fraudulent, then suspicion is going to be raised against Israel. My nation will be put in grave danger by our leaders and their intelligence services. And this time, I don't want to know anything about it.

END EXCERPT

Is Chamish just another disinformist ? I do not know, I tend to think not, but who knows.

NOW the article in its entirety:

From: barry chamish

The Human Price Of Rabin's Truth

by Barry Chamish

My work is a burden. I know too much. I'm paying a price now and it can only get costlier. Three and a half years ago I wrote about Israel from two perspectives: the very positive, glorifying my country's achievements in various trade magazines read mostly by gentiles, and the very negative: exposing Israeli political corruption in my own publication Inside Israel, read mostly by Jews. The idea was to clean up our political system so I would only have to write about our achievements.

Then in November, 1995 Yitzhak Rabin was murdered and I quickly gathered proof that our government told not a word of truth about the real circumstances of his demise. And for this I was vilified in the Israeli media, and twice, ugly protests disrupted my lectures. My family was forced to read front page newspaper accounts of my fictional life: I was a Holocaust denier, a member of organized crime, a follower of Rabbi Kahane (THE number one crime of the Israeli media), and worse.

But I could almost count myself lucky. My partner in Inside Israel, Joel Bainerman, flew to Washington in 1992 to research his book on the Bush era, Crimes Of A President. Before anyone else, he reported on the Clinton/Bush cocaine ring run through the airport at Mena, Arkansas. He was the first to reveal the murder of Amiram Nir, a senior advisor to Shimon Peres and a major player in Iran Contra. He blew the lid off the involvement of Peres and Rabin in all that was Iran Contra: arms for hostages, drugs for money for guns for control.

While in Washington an "admirer" gave him a gift: a necktie. He even fit it around his neck. That very night, Joel's neck swelled so frighteningly that he called his wife to tell her something was wrong. Four months later he had cancer in the glands of his neck which spread throughout the lymphatic system.

Adir Zik is my compatriot in exposing the Rabin conspiracy. Because of his newspaper column and radio show, he reaches far more people than I do. He, more than anyone else, exposed the involvement of Israel's Secret Service, the Shabak, in the murder. Two months ago he called me to say throat cancer was discovered. He would have to undergo immediate surgery. I only hope that he makes the same kind of recovery Joel did.

There are dead victims of Rabin, and there are innocent people wallowing in prison. Arnold and Marilyn Cytryn are two American Israelis who resemble, as Joel noted, "My uncle and aunt." They came to Israel to live free lives as proud Jews and Israelis. Then in 1995 their son Shmuel was arrested and placed in solitary confinement by the Shabak for over four months. To this day he doesn't know the charges against him. We now understand why he went through the torture. In September, two months before the Rabin assassination, he publicly identified the provocateur Avishai Raviv as a Shabak plant. This could not be tolerated, because in November, Raviv played a central role in Rabin's murder, whether witting or not.

So two nice retired Jewish folks, had to undergo an agony few of us can begin to fathom: wondering if their son would survive prison isolation for no crime whatsoever. His "crime" was fingering a murderous snitch.

But he was luckier than one David Newman, who made the fatal error of befriending Raviv. Within a week of Rabin's murder he was dead, a suicide they said. He was the only son of a widow, I'm informed, totally broken by her loss and just too worn down to pursue her suspicions of foul play.

As for me, here I am writing this in good health. I merely have to suffer harassment. I was interviewed by three American radio programs today. My line was cut off in the middle of all three. If anyone tells me it was all a coincidence, I'll walk away. I've had it hearing that statistical impossibility is explainable by coincidence.

For five years my family and I lived in relative tranquility in a place called Bet Shemesh. Then a pervert built a house behind us where there shouldn't have been a house. Every morning at the crack of dawn he would wake us all with the barking of his dogs. No appeal to him would stop the noise. Then he devoted his life to isolating us from our neighbors. Then we were victimized by vandalism, theft, threats and soon police complaints. We are certain he was planted to harass us and the tension did its job on my family in ways that could have broken us up at any time.

So we moved and it turns out our new neighbors are listening at our windows, photographing us, spreading rumors etc. etc. And we just don't know why. I'm no saint, and am a product of America circa late Sixties. The neighbors appear to be snooping to find a moment when they can publicly humilate me and my family. My wife is at a loss to explain why we have been putting up with exactly the same neighborly mischief for four straight years.

And I'm not even mentioning the opened and lost mail, the passport that couldn't be issued, the men with cellular phones standing in the street outside our home at 3 AM, friends who keep their distance because of perceived danger, the sudden difficulty in knowing who to trust...And worst of all, the feeling that the stakes could be raised at any time.

Because I have established a reputation, as Haaretz wrote on its front page recently, as "the leading researcher of the Rabin assassination conspiracy theory," people, at great risk to themselves put powerful documentation in my hands. In the past two weeks I have received the army records of Rabin's bodyguard Yoram Rubin, his driver on the night of the murder, Menachem Damti and of the State Pathologist who lied about Rabin's wounds, Dr. Yehuda Hiss. And I received a copy of Dr. Hiss's banned report, with all its lies and accidental, shocking truth intact within. When added to my hundreds of pages of police reports, hospital records, court protocols, private testimonies, I have built an airtight case that the convicted assassin did not do the deed.

The problem is I know who did. In February 1996, journalist Yehoshua Meiri told me who did it and why. I arranged to have his claims videotaped. So certain was he of his information, that he tracked Joel down in England to let him know the facts. Meiri insisted that Peres organized the murder with the connivance of the French government and secret services. He said the Americans and British were furious and unless Peres abandoned his French allies "all Hell would break out here." Which is just what happened as Israel was bled by suicide bombers within a week.

Yet, for a long while I followed the wrong trail, to America. The evidence I had gathered proved Rabin was rebelling against his American controllers during the last two months of his life and that Ehud Barak had made sinister alliances with the same gang at the Council For Foreign Relations that was becoming progressively less satisfied with Rabin's independence. It looked like a motive for murder, but I had to admit that new information pointed to France.

A French journalist, Pierre Lurcat, reminded readers in his Jewish student paper, that President Mitterand had once faked his own assassination in a scandal that haunted him his whole career called the Observatoire Affair. The sympathy which arose from the phoney murder attempt vaulted Mitterand's career to the top. Lurcat claimed Peres and Mitterand discussed how to do the same thing for Rabin to save his failing peace process with the PLO. Pierre told me, "I was only using my logic, I had no solid evidence. Then the authorities came down so hard on me and the newspaper that I surmised I got it right. I was a law student at the time, I'm an attorney now, and the French media turned me into a lunatic."

Then I was reminded that Peres ally, the secretive French media mogul, Jean Frydman financed the rally where Rabin was murdered. And that Shabak chief Carmi Gillon spent the night of the assassination in Paris. And then there was that bizarre incident in early 1996 when Jacques Chirac went bananas in the Old City of Jerusalem. Peres had sent Yoram Rubin, everybody's prime suspect as Rabin's downfall, to guard Chirac. His French bodyguards informed him who he was and Chirac ran to the nearest reporters nearly crying that he did not need Israeli bodyguards. That he'd feel safer with Arab guards protecting him.

People ask me, "Why are you still alive?" more than "How are you?" Until now I've answered, "Because I know who did it and I'm not saying." Well, now I'm saying it. I'm on the trail to France. If I'm on a hit list, it won't make a difference anymore. It's murderama time in this world.

As a result of my Rabin work gaining credibility in certain informed circles, I am sent the lowdown on other political murders. For four years now the world has slept while William Colby decided to abandon his hot dinner and take a final canoe ride, while Vince Foster chose to crawl on his back so his suit would fill up with carpet fibers and then shoot himself in a park, while Sonny Bono hit a tree and his body lay unnoticed on a busy ski trail for three hours, while the only FBI agents to die in Waco were four former Clinton bodyguards, while Ron Brown felt it would be a swell idea to shoot himself in the head then land in Bosnia for dramatic effect, while a surviving stewardess and air traffic controller decided to follow him to the great beyond a few hours later, while French police just couldn't locate that sneaky Fiat Uno which waited for Diana's car in the tunnel, while a Clinton intern died in a Starbucks holdup where no money was taken, while the President felt impelled to rush back from a holiday to Washington on the night his pretty adviser to the deaf met her demise, and on and and on. Clearly, it is a rather fatal idea to get to know the President from too close up.

When his bloodlust wasn't satisfied at home, he helped conjure up some excuses abroad. The hapless bombing of a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan just didn't do it for him, so a futile exercise against Iraq settled him down for a few days. But the thirst to kill just kept coming back to its master, so a phoney humanitarian war in Kosovo helped calm the nerves. Next on his list is Israel, and my leaders will do all they can to help him out.

There is murder in the air in Israel. Former Interior Minister Arieh Deri suffered a loss a while back, when after his wife's adoptive mother refused to sign an affadavit testifying that she gave him all the money he was accused of stealing from the Israeli Treasury, she was run over by an employee of one of his cronies. Rabin's Deputy Defence Minister Motta Gur committed suicide because of his cancer. Only his doctor told reporters his cancer was cured. Two of Rabin's bodyguards also committed suicide. One of them Yoav Kuriel, did so by shooting himself in the chest seven times. A very persistent suicide.

And I found this out because friends of the person who prepared his body for burial contacted me. To prove the story was accurate, I was faxed Kuriel's death certificates. He died of nothing and no one identified his body. Now did I really need to know this? All I intended to do was investigate the murder of one human prime minister and before I knew it, I was tracking down serial killers. Jewish serial killers. In my country. One may be living next door to me.

During the Yom Kippur War, I looked at photos of Israeli prisoners of war in American news magazines and became a Zionist. I vowed to do my part for my people. I moved to Israel, joined the army, fought in a war and defended my country. And now I'm gathering indisputable, unarguable proof that the leaders of the country I risked my life for are tangled up in murder, either promulgating it, or covering it up.

So what's an honest Israeli journalist supposed to do? Most Jews would say, cover it up like everyone else. If you don't, you will endanger Israel's security. That may be true in the very short term, but over time we won't outlast the moral rot. The behaviour of my leaders has nothing whatsoever to do with Judaism or Zionism as the Israeli people understand it. They have to be exposed and purged. Then the good Jews will set things right. That is precisely the view of hundreds of thousands of my fellow Israelis and their support, I receive dozens of letters of encouragement on a good day, is why I have carried on this far.

So now what do we do about the information coming out on the explosion of JFK Jr.'s plane? The day it happened I wrote that JFK Jr. was doing more than any other American media figure to get to the bottom of the Rabin assassination truth. I reminded readers that his magazine George ran a 13 page expose of the Shabak's involvement in the assassination. I suggested that this was a brave but risky stand.

Then came the tidal wave of data. The FBI Preliminary Report confirming the bomb on the plane and noting the type of explosive was used by certain foreign intelligence services. This was followed by Catherine Crier of Fox TV's The Crier Report, announcing that JFK Jr. was about to meet high ranking Mossad officers to get the full story on the Rabin assassination. Then Maariv ran an interview with JFK's chauffeur, who happens to be Israeli. Then people started noting that Barak was in Washington at the time of Kennedy's finale in life.

So radio shows from America starting calling asking me to investigate a possible Mossad hit. They observe that the chauffeur was in a position to plant a bomb in JFK Jr.'s luggage... That Barak had an interest in preventing Kennedy from finding out the truth of Rabin's murder. And on and on and deeper and deeper.

Will I pursue this line? Is this beyond my intention of reforming my nation and finally reaching the ugly point of wrecking it...Of feeding every anti-semite's wildest fantasies...Of justifying every anti-Zionist diatribe ever written...Of handing our Arab enemies the very weapon they've been seeking to crush us into the sand???????

I've always believed that truth is good by its nature and a lie is bad by its. I've suffered losses by pursuing one truth: what really happened to Yitzhak Rabin on Nov.4/95. I cannot make the same living from my conventional business writing because of Rabin. My family life is much tenser than it would have been without Rabin. A certain segment of Jewry despises me for what I am doing to their view of Rabin's saintliness.

But the gains are real as well. I have the admiration of the most dedicated Zionists. I enjoy status and respect from the Israelis I most respect. And they always turn out when I lecture. And they take, sometimes, scary risks to find vital documents for me. And there are more and more people like them every day. I can't let these people down.

And I think I will if I pursue the Kennedy line. If the Crier report is right, and if the FBI Preliminary Report isn't fraudulent, then suspicion is going to be raised against Israel. My nation will be put in grave danger by our leaders and their intelligence services. And this time, I don't want to know anything about it.

end



-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 02, 1999.


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