Friends -

I have not yet acquired any weapons for defense; my time and funds have been devoted to long-lead items in the Food, Water, and Shelter categories. The garage STILL needs more room for storage. *sigh*

I have recently learned that my late father-in-law left me two rifles: his Marine-issue M1 .30cal and a bolt-action Remington .22cal Model 34. They both look to be in pretty good shape, considering their age, and are certainly in shooting condition. He also left me about 150 rounds for each weapon, along with a cleaning kit for the .22. The man always took good care of his tools.

My question is: how useful and reliable would the M1 be for security and defense? I got plenty of shooting experience in my youth with shotguns and small caliber rifles, but know almost nothing about the M1 except that it was Marine standard issue back in the 50's and possible into the '60s. If it'll serve a good deterrent purpose, I could save some precious preparation funds.

I should note that I plan to spend time at the local range with whatever weapons I have in late August and September. Gun safety and the need to work on skills was hammered into me by a very fine teacher: my own Dad.

Your comments welcomed.

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), July 31, 1999

Answers

Besides using an M-1 rifle in the Army, I also used a Carbine. Man, I liked it because it had no kick! I wonder if they are stil available and what is the cost? Does anybody know?

-- freddie (freddie@thefreeloader.com), July 31, 1999.

you'll spend much less on having a gunsmith than you will on a new prostetic eye and hand.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 31, 1999.

Mac,

Zoobie's cryptic advice is worthwhile. If you think you need a good 500yd rifle keep it. If a tight budget and sincere self-defense concerns drive you, consider trading it for a Mini-14 or such. A Garand in good condition will more than cover the price.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), July 31, 1999.

Whoa! Clarify the caliber of the M-1 before considering advice to trade it! If it is not an M-1 Carbine, but the full powered M-1 that takes the .30-06 cartridge, keep it. It is hard to beat the .30-06 M-1 for range, accuracy, and dependability. The M-1 Carbine is a different matter. It is a short range weapon, but the light recoil may make it just the thing for a possible teenager or wife. The Carbine was originally adapted for officers to use to enhance their self-protection over using the Model 1911 .45 ACP pistol. The carbine chambers a rather puny .30 caliber cartridge with about the power of a handgun cartridge.

Gerald

-- Gerald R. Cox (grcox@internetwork.net), July 31, 1999.

Mac,

If you have the Garand, and it's in good shape, hang onto it, and get familiar with it. It's probably worth 500-800 bux on the market, but you will have a hard time finding something more dependable in a crunch. You will need the 8-rd clips to feed it, so check on having some of those. I think Cascade Ammunition sells some ammunition already in the clips.

Do a search on the web and you can find some good information on your rifle. It will function best with ammunition loaded to mil. specs.

I think you have a great start on your defenses. Of course, there are newer items out there, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are *better*.

keep on keepin' on,

gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), July 31, 1999.

Patton called the M1 Garand rifle the finest battle instrument ever devised. It's a keeper; hang on to it.

In comparison to modern battle rifles it suffers in just one respect: it uses an 8-round clip. It was replaced by the M14 which used the familiar 10, 20 & 30 round detachable box magazines.

Still, the "perfect" personal defense weapon hasn't been invented yet.

-- Wichita Will (gotno@email.com), July 31, 1999.

Mac,

Consider getting an SKS, preferably Russian made. They are a reliable, heavy duty assault rifle that you can drop in the mud, step on, bang it on a rock to knock the mud out of the sites and start shooting again, dang near jam proof. They cost about 200 clams new and mine will do a 3 shot patern at 100 yrds you can cover with a Quarter. The ammo is cheap and the gun don't kick much, is good out to 300 yrds. They come with a sling and a built in cleaning kit. DON'T get the Chiness model, pure junk.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), July 31, 1999.

Without "professional" input, you may be out of your league. Proceed intelligently, and contact a local _quality_ firearms dealer, and or shooting club. You may have a real prize, but one which is inapproriate for your needs. There is local talent available to assist you. Find and use it, wherever you are. Then confirm the opinion, evaluate, and act responsibly.

-- A. Hambley (a.hambley@usa.net), July 31, 1999.

watch the thumb!!

-- eddy (xxx@xxx.com), August 01, 1999.

Mac,

If your M1 is a carbine:

You have a decent relatively short-range weapon (about 200 yards max), given adequate ability on your part to use it to the best advantage. It is light weight, compact, recoils very little and is easy to field strip and clean. Your local library might have a copy of _Small Arms of the World_ which will tell you how to field strip the carbine, or a friend who's familiar with it can show you. It was overwhelmingly popular at one time in many parts of the country due to its light weight and overall handiness. The carbine was designed to replace pistols used by officers and NCOs in World War II. Ultimately more M1/M1A1/M2/M3 Carbines were produced in World War II than any other US military weapon, according to _Small Arms of the World_.

I would have it headspaced (not expensive) and inspected by a competent gunsmith, obtain an adequate supply of magazines, ammo and a few spare parts (extractor, firing pin, ejector, hammer, sear and springs for the above) and carry on. I would have a minimum of 1000 rounds for the carbine and a half dozen good magazines.

Magazines and spare parts are relatively plentiful and relatively inexpensive compared to some other types at present. I recommend you stick to the 15-round magazines- the 30-round ones were made for the M2 selective fire version and are not quite as reliable. Ammo is somewhat more expensive by comparison to some other calibers but availability is good. I suggest you get new-production commercial ammo and stick to the 110-grain soft point bullet. Get a single box 'off the shelf' first and make sure your individual carbine will feed it OK. If you have feeding problems make sure it is not the magazine that's responsible. If problems persist, go with GI-style hardball (full metal jacketed bullet) or get a good 'smith to work it out.

The .30 Carbine round is anemic in comparison to other rounds used in US service rifles/carbines. It launches a 110 grain bullet at 1970 feet per second. Zeroed at 100 yards it hits about a foot low at 200, according to the ballistics tables. This should tell you to sight in a bit high (3" or so) at 100 yards so you'll be hitting higher at 200 with the same sight picture. This is a good practice to follow with any center fire rifle used for general defensive purposes- the military refers to it as 'battle sight.' The .30 Carbine is not legal for deer hunting in at least some states because it is deemed under powered for the purpose. It will kill deer given careful shot placement from ranges inside 100 yards or so. I would remind detractors that there are graves all over the world filled with targets of people using carbines. It would not be my first choice but one could do worse.

If your M1 is a Garand (M1 Rifle as opposed to M1 Carbine- always be sure to make the distinction):

Congratulations- your father in law left you a treasure, assuming you have the willingness and ability to learn to use it properly. It is unlikely that much will be out of order with either an M1 Rifle or an M1 Carbine that has been properly cared for, even though either might well be fifty years old or more. Even so, I would have either one of them headspaced by a competent gunsmith (not a complicated or expensive operation) to make sure all was as it should be. At the same time the 'smith can perform enough of an inspection to assure you there will be no untoward problems, and check for things that might need attention. The only major problems with old military weapons are apt to be worn or abused bores in the barrels from being fired a lot or not being cleaned adequately after using corrosive ammo (US military ammo prior to 1952 had mercuric primers), and wear on moving parts. In the M1 Rifle the gas system will require inspection from a knowing eye as well. My Garand is a WW2 veteran (six digit Springfield serial #) _and_ a Korean War veteran, was rebarreled in 1956 (when I was 3 years old) and still shoots better than I can hold it.

Again, either find a copy of _Small Arms of the World_ or an experienced friend to teach you how to field strip your Garand.

You will need a supply of the eight-round en bloc clips for the Garand. They are relatively plentiful right now- a bunch of them must have been put on the surplus market within the past couple of years. I would get enough of them to 'clip up' at least 1000 rounds (that's 125 clips). The clips can be reused, if you can find them after the first use. The clip will spring clear of the rifle when the last round is fired with a distinctive "tinngggg", leaving the action locked open ready for another clip to be loaded. Needless to say if anyone hostile and experienced is in close proximity to you and hears that noise, they'll know your rifle is down for a couple of seconds. You should get good at loading if you are going to use the rifle 'as is.' The eight-round clip is not necessarily a disadvantage. You should not plan on taking on hordes of attackers single handedly with any shoulder weapon. The M1 Rifle gives a good shooter a significant tactical advantage in range and power, and you should plan to stay mobile if engaged in order to use that advantage fully to hold assailants at bay. Experienced people will immediately use fire and maneuver in an encounter, and you cannot afford to be pinned down and maneuvered on by people who know what they're doing no matter how you're armed.

The M1 Rifle is chambered for the .30-06 cartridge. This particular cartridge name means that it is a .30 caliber, and it was adopted by the US military in 1906 (thus the -06). The cartridge has also been used in the 1903 Springfield bolt-action service rifle, the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), the Johnson rifle and light machine gun, and several variations of belt-fed Browning machine guns in US service through the years. It has been a popular sporting rifle cartridge the world over for decades. It is a powerful and accurate round when launched from a good rifle, and a good Garand qualifies overwhelmingly in that respect.

The M1 Rifle has the best iron sights ever put on a rifle (same type is on the M14 as well) for a shooter who will learn to use them to their full capability. By comparison with some other types the rifle is heavy and long, but given the recoil generated by the .30-06 this is not a disadvantage. A good 'smith can give an M1 Rifle a truly great trigger pull (if it doesn't have a good one to start with). It is fitted with solid sling swivels that, used in conjunction with a good shooting sling, provide a rock-solid platform and accuracy out to almost incredible ranges (service rifle matches are shot at up to 1000 yards). Most shooters, me included, cannot shoot up to this rifle's capabilities. That doesn't keep me from trying.

Ammo is widely available at present, both recent commercial production and ammo loaded from "pulled down" military components. That is, military ammo that has reached the end of its storage life is salvaged for its usable components (case and bullet) and reloaded. A box of 20 rounds of .30-06 ball or AP from pull-down components is about $5, truly a bargain. Were I you I would get as much of the AP (armor piercing) as possible, simply because it uses a heavier bullet than ball and will shoot better at longer ranges. The commercial ammo is likely to be much more expensive. I've been satisfied with the Talon brand pull-down I've shot recently.

Oh yes- do be careful when manipulating the M1 Rifle- it bites. It's necessary to push down the follower with a thumb while holding the bolt back with the edge of the same hand when closing the bolt, and you have to be sure to get the thumb out of the way quickly. My issue rifle in ROTC bit me once when I was gently picking a thread from a cleaning patch off the follower with a thumb and forefinger, so I speak from experience.

As for the Remington .22, get the 'smith to look it over at the same time. Again there should be no problems with it but it is cheap insurance. Always remember to use good eye and ear protection when shooting, and be safe above all else. And remember- amateurs talk tactics, experts discuss logistics.

Good luck,

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), August 01, 1999.

"amateurs talk tactics, experts discuss logistics. "

Lee, could you expand on this?

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), August 01, 1999.

Biker,

You mean I wasn't long-winded enough already?

That's one of many military truisms I've heard bandied about for a long time. You've probably heard a similar one, "an army marches on its stomach." It has a lot to do with the realities of war and with the way armies are actually made up. A lot of people think everyone in uniform is a front-line hard charging soldier. Actually the ratio is about ten cooks, bakers, accountants, truck drivers, mail orderlies, supply room clerks etc. to every trigger puller. If you hear or read the term "tooth to tail ratio" that's what's being talked about. There's a lot more tail than tooth in any modern army, and no matter how good your tactics are if your logistics (supply and support) fail you're toast.

What I meant in using it here was that the time to get the stuff you think you'll need for the next year or decade or forever is rapidly running out. I meant that one of the biggest threats inherent in y2k is the failure of our accustomed just-in-time delivery system, and it's time to be ready to do without it for a while if necessary, or pay the price. A Garand is a pain to use as a single-shot, for example, and without those cheap little sheet-spring clips that's exactly what you have. If you need some, get'em now while you can. Ditto anything else you're likely to need really bad to keep some critical function going. With spares for stuff that breaks or wears out or uses up. For example, it's not too likely you'll need a spare Dutch oven, but without a lighter or a box of matches you'll have to find an inventive way to start a fire to cook over. Think ahead, think hard, and think well.

Before Lewis and Clark started out on their expedition into the unknown American wilderness in 1804, they had a lot of planning to do, and a lot of that involved logistics. One of the relatively minor things they did was to make their gunpowder containers out of lead. They had to carry powder, and they needed lead for musket balls, so they combined the two. Each container melted down to cast enough musket balls to be fired by the amount of powder it contained. That's a demonstration of the kind of ingenuity and forethought I mean- not tricky, but practical and useful.

Regards,

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), August 01, 1999.

Don't give up on those old weapons! If they worked in the past, they will still defend you now. I have a wonderful claymore (replica Scottish sword) that has very nice balance. An M1 would be a good choice for relatively open country. The carbine version for closer-in work.

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), August 01, 1999.

I can't weigh in much on this subject except to mention my grandpa warned me about the "M1 Thumb" when showing me his Garand many, many years ago..... As others have already mentioned - WATCH OUT - practice makes perfect I suspect!

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), August 02, 1999.

Hi Mac!

I own several of the Garands mainly for collectors purposes, they are a truly excellant weapon. For defense purposes one should consider other alternative sources if funding is availiable, however this weapon will be useful as long as you have the required ammo and clips.

Listen to Lee about this weapon, he knows what he's talking about! BTW- Lee, I agree completely with you concerning the logistics angle. I find myself using an old patrol analogy when doing preps. Remember SMEAC?

Situation.

Mission.

Exeucution.

Administration and Logistics.

Command and Signals.

The importance of our logistics will never be more crucial than next year. Great responce to Mac's questions!

Semper Fi!

-- Ex-Marine (Digging In@home.com), August 02, 1999.

Well, now that Mr. Lapin is posting here I'm redundant. But, if you need en-bloc clips try the Gun Parts company. They have a nice catalog that includes lots of parts for those old war horses. They even have manuals. If you don't shoot, pick up Col. Coopers "The Art of the Rifle". The book tells you what you need to know to be a rifleman. It also has a picture of an M1 garand on the front with a proper military style sling. That's the kind of sling you want to get. And the book tells you how the whole system ties together. I wouldn't consider a rifle complete without a sling that allows you to loop up. Word around the gun shop is that the M1 Garand can suffer from a bent operating rod if you put in a heavy bullet. I would chase that rumor down to make sure. Anything not heavier than the military issue rounds should work.

Hope that helps

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), August 02, 1999.

Gad, is this a great forum or what? Many, many thanks to all contributors to this thread, and especially to Mr. Lapin. Your collected wisdom is much appreciated.

I should note the M1 is the Carbine and not (unfortunately) the Garand. Father-in-law did leave me five full clips, along with four boxes of FMJ rounds.

I'll have a smith take a good look at both weapons and we'll go from there. It sounds like I may want to acquire something with a bit more "heft" and have some of the smaller members of my clan train on these two pieces.

Will definitely be wary of the "M1 Thumb". Many thanks.

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 02, 1999.

Mac...

Since the M1 is a carbine, I would suggest looking into a hunting rifle as a next weapon. Savage and Ruger make some inexpensive bolt- action rifles. IMHO, that would be the next purchase...

Good Luck,

loungin' on the porch...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), August 02, 1999.

Mac,

The carbine is still a nice legacy. A couple of points I forgot (duh) earlier: first, don't do any harsh cleaning, sandpapering etc. just yet, until you find out what company made your carbine. It might be worth more $$ to a collector, if in good or better original condition, more so than just as a shooter. Obviously not likely given the millions of them that were made, but you never know... . Look at the receiver at/under the rear sight, or at the barrel just behind the front sight (abbreviated there) for manufacturer's information. Just so you'll know, here's some production numbers from various manufacturers- (hope this formats OK)

Winchester---------------------------------- 809,451 M1 (17,500 M2, 1,108 M3)**

Inland Manufacturing Div., General Motors- 2,625,000 total all types**

Underwood Elliot Fisher----------------------545,616 total**

National Postal Meter------------------------413,017 total**

Rock-ola Mfg. Corp.--------------------------228,500 total**

Quality Hardware-----------------------------359,662 total**

Standard Products----------------------------247,155 total**

Saginaw--------------------------------------739,136 total**

IBM------------------------------------------346,500 total**

Obviously the rarer ones are more valuable, given good to excellent condition and no modifications. There seems to be a soft spot in a lot of people's hearts for Rock-ola marked specimens.

Second, get some extra magazines for it and don't leave them all loaded all the time- some magazine springs get 'tired' if left compressed for long periods of time (though some seem not to- I don't like to take chances). With more than one set of magazines you can rotate them periodically.

Finally, anything worth shooting with a .30 carbine is worth shooting more than once. Once you get the basics down pat, learn to 'double tap' or fire two rounds as quickly as you can do it accurately.

Oh- and if there's anything on the front receiver ring, under the operating rod, _except_ US CARBINE CAL. 30 M1... well, if there's anything other than that it might not be good for anyone else to see it.

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), August 02, 1999.

Will definitely look into a hunting rifle (.30/06 or .30/30).

I locate no info of any kind at the M1's receiver at/under the rear sight, nor at the barrel just behind the front sight. What appears to be a serial number just behind the rear sight. Letters "SW" on the left side of the safety.

I'll take a good long look at it under a strong light and see what other info, if any, may be on it.

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), August 03, 1999.

Mac,

May I make a suggestion to look at .308 (NATO 7.62X51) when you look at hunting rifles? It is the same caliber as the M60 machine gun issued to every battalion in the US armed forces. Ammo is plentiful, and cheap. When you buy the weapon, buy 500 rounds of military ball ammo, and practice, practice, practice.

The ballistics of .308 is very similar to 30-06.

If you have your heart set on 30-30, a perfect 150 yard caliber, get to know someone who has access to reloading capability. The cheapest I have found 30-30 ammo is around $15.00 for 20. The good hunting ammo is about $20.00 for 20. 30-06 is very similarly priced.

You can buy 500 rounds of .308 military ball for about $100.00. The hunting rounds are comparably priced to 30-30 and 30-06.

Just a thought. Good luck.

watchin' it rain...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), August 03, 1999.