Do you shoot them, or feed thengreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
I got it about a year and a half ago. One of the questions I had to answer was, how do I protect my preps? At the time I was trolling on some survivalist sites and read about all the ways you can fortify, and bunker down to protect your stuff. It involved sand bags, night vision goggles, long watches on guard, and the willingness to kill you neighbor.
Then it occured to me, rice, beans, and water are easy and cheap to store. Seeds for sprouting will give you the fresh veggies we all need,. Why not prep for your neighbor too? Look around and see how a few bucks of garden seed, and few 100 lbs of cheap food can save not only your life, but your neighbors life.
Admittedly, I have a lot of meat running around here on the hoof, fin, and wing, and water is abundant, but you can live on rice and beans, and most places have water, you may have to work like hell to get it, but there is water.
If Y2k goes bad, you won't make it on your own, that's a given, but with some forthought, and hard work, most will find a way.
-- CT (email@example.com), July 27, 1999
Depends on who your neighbors are. Everyone must bring something to the party. I'm not fortunate to have strong healthy neighbors. They are all over the age of 65 and perhaps this is the end of their life cycle. I'm going it alone because I have to. You may have a lot of meat running around, but there will be a lot of meat eating people running to shoot them down. None of my neighbors can offer me anything, everyone's situation is different.
-- loner (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
All of your nieghbors are over 65? That I don't beleive, but think of the knowlege base there. They have been there and done that. They probably know how to can, know what a cold celler is, and know how to smoke or jerk meat. Think about it, they have lived it.
-- CT (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
Most people I've been aquainted with, are good, productive people, whether they know it or not. I find myself agreeing with you totally. It could be a tough year, but with my neighbors help we may survive. I will still hold the same requirements. A person would need to be agressivly violent for us to pull triggers. I esspecially like your view of the elderly. There knowledge is worth meals and lodging to me. Thanks for some good thoughts this evening.
-- R. Wright (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
I invite you to scan the thread "Let's move on part 3". Similar discussion you might find interesting.
-- Lon Frank (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
I've found that most people dismiss old folks as a waste of space, that is a mistake, you wouldn't believe what you can learn from them, and most of them are really good people. Alot of my best friends are older than me, some much older, I love the stories and the wisdom, totaly priceless.
Have a good one,
-- CT (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
E-mail me ya ole coot...I lost yer addy!!
-- Don (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
I'm in a good situation here, living on a 150+ acre farm, in NJ believe it or not. We don't work the farm, just rent the house. Nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away, on each side. Nothing (another farm) across the street. We all wave to each other, maybe 2 times a year when we see each other. West neighbor has a kid. East neighbor is 60(?)+ year old couple. Would I shoot them??? You've got to be kidding me CT. You're starting to sound like Andy Ray. If I lived in the "city" with hundreds of neighbors in the same amount of space, I would have to think real hard about it. But I don't live in the "city."
But, we're not that far from Trenton. If a bunch of dick-heads drove up the driveway, and deceided to throw a brick thru our window, because we have the lights on, well, let's just say that my police officer housemate wouldn't like it very much. Then again, if they drove up the driveway, knocked on the door and asked for help, I guess it would depend on the status of our stash at the time. We may have to say no. If they drive away, no problem. If they don't, well, life goes on... <:)=
-- Sysman (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
Good to see you, say hi to Zog, and tell him to E me . I've been real busy and doin fine, You still livin with the the nuks in the backyard?
Just started a new job and quite 2, better bucks and hours.
Keep in touch
-- CT (ct@ no.yr), July 27, 1999.
I think you are right.
Rice and beans are VERY cheap. Don't shoot anyone unless they are a physical threat and you have no options..
I'm a Christian. I regard anything terrible (on this scale) as a test from God. I'm not going to try and pass the test by killing someone that needs food.
I think I'm going to buy a few hundred more pounds of rice and beans. What the heck, I can donate it to charity if nothing happens.
-- Bryce (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
Don't discount the ancient ones. My Dad is in his 80s and has returned to university for his Masters in the health care administration field. He has also served in the state Senior Legislature for many years. He has survived cancer and a knee replacement and is still very active and keen of mind. He also volunteers teaching children to read. What have you done lately?
I, myself, am quasi-ancient, yet I moved forty wheel barrow loads of gravel this past weekend, while the youngers in the family watched television and went swimming.
Youthfullness is largely attitude to those who can overcome the infirmities of the mortal coil.
-- anon (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
Violence is a last resort, and to be avoided. Just like any OTHER day we get out of bed.
We plan on feeding our neighbors, if they need it. Even the elderly couple next door (who's brains we plan on picking endlessly). In fact, we've even planned on fuel to power the generator to run the O2 machine the old man needs.
Frankly we don't expect our country neighbors to need huge ammounts of help. There is a lot of good common sense around here.
-- Art Welling (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
Sorry to say this, but the neighbors that seem so nice now may end up trying to kill YOU if it means their survival and that of their family. If you don't want to risk watching your spouse and children die (and end up dying yourself!!), KEEP TO YOURSELF after Y2K. Don't be a target!!!
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
(In my opinion) I am surprised when reading most of these responses. I would agree that it is good to help one's neighbor, and others in need. And a bambi here and there can provide fresh meat. But think 3 weeks or 3 months down the road. An extra bag of beans may help a couple of neighbors, but what will you do when the 50th person comes to your door. Unless you have a grain bin, full, there may very well reach a point when you MUST make a decision. Watch my family starve or turn someone away. Also, what if the problems last for over a year. Do you really have enough to feed all who come to your door? And growing your own food? This is a good idea, but the first year, if it is really bad, will bring theives on two feet as well as four feet. And it will take energy to process the food and store the food properly. I don't know if one can rely on this method 100%. Have additional rations stored. They are cheap, at least today.
Regarding the ol brick through the window, don't be naive. Have you ever heard of the wolf in sheeps clothing. I'm sure you heard of the ding-dong in CA that was just arrested for killing those 4. He didn't throw a brick through their window. He knew what he wanted and did what he had to do to get it. Granted, not all people are anywhere near this man's coldness, but we only need be unprepared once and it is over. Remember, you cannot help your family, friends or neighbors if you become the victim. Take some time to think and prepare mentally so when a given situation arises, you act boldly. Always be vigilent.
Regarding making it on your own, I believe that is exactly what you should plan to do. If you have the mental ability and the financial resources, it would be inexcusable to leave yourself vulerable to danger for the purpose of relying on others.
The seriousness of the above is amplified based on the number of family members you have. If you are in a position of responsibility and accountability over others (caring for children and possible other family members) it is imperative that you accept the challenge and do what is necessary to provide for their safety.
-- daryl (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
Great advice, Daryl. It's truly amazing to see how much time and effort people are spending on preparations, only to watch how easily they are willing to throw their lives (and that of their families) away on a very naive (even "polly"!) view of how things will be when TSHTF. Yeah, it would be great if we all banded together in peace and harmony to help our fellow man. But then again, if we really WERE that type of society, we'd never have this problem in the first place!!
If you have something that someone else needs, YOU'RE A TARGET, plain and simple. If you aren't prepared to kill, then you'll most likely die. That's probably the most difficult truth and saddest part of Y2K.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
-- the cascades (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
You can't feed everyone. You can't shoot everyone. Maybe, you can hide from everyone. The only people who can think of feeding their neighbors are those who live in a small (<100) town. Your options are:
Move to the sticks.
Get enough people in your town to join you in prep's to feed yourselves and the rest. (about 10%?)
Hide from everyone.
Make everyone scared to go on your property. (I'm not talking using fireamrs here).
I don't see any other options. Unless it's "fix enough Y2K bugs".
There may be some very hard choices presented to us ahead. I'm trying to figure out how to handle them in a humane manner. I'll let you know what I come up with.
Watch six and keep your...
-- eyes_open (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
I've been struggling with this issue ever since I first got it. I knew it would be practically impossible to survive in the city so I decided to move to a more rural location in the western NC mountains. I didn't want to be too close to neighbors in my new location, but ended up compromising on that requirement because I found a place that seemed to have most of the other things I was looking for. Also, this is a supposedly a very Christian community, and from what I've heard, people here are more prepared in general.
Lately, I have been regretting that I am so close to other people. I live on a small side road with about six other families. I've discussed y2k with a few of them: the couple that lives next door are GI's, but I think the wife is more concerned about it and the husband is just going along to keep her happy. In any event, they are not very prepared right now (maybe for a 1 or 2).
To make a long story short, the husband was over here the other day and we had to go down in the basement. He saw my one year supply of freeze-dried food and some other stuff. His comment to me: "Well now I know where to come if things get bad and we (his family) need a meal."
Another neighbor was completely clueless about y2k. We got talking about it a couple of weeks ago, so I invited him in and showed him a few websites and started explaining about the interconnectedness of things. The light bulb came on for him. We then got to talking about water. Since we live on a mountain, we all have wells that are very deep (400-500'), so you need power to run the pump. I have a generator, he doesn't. His comment to me: "Well, if I need water, I'll just steal your generator."
I know that they were both supposedly joking, but I feel very uncomfortable now. I think it shows the frame of mind that these people operate from. I would never even consider such a response and would never even jokingly talk about victimizing my neigbors.
I am worried and distrustful now. Both of these men are supposedly Christians. I wonder how they would feel if I said, "Well, if I ever get too lonely, I'll just come over and fuck your wife."
-- Clyde (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
You're absolutely right to be concerned, Clyde. If they're considering begging or STEALING now, what will happen when it REALLY hits??
This is exactly the problem I've been talking about. Your neighbors may seem fine when all is well. But when times get tough, and they become desperate, they will come after you.
Your best bet is to MOVE OUT NOW, while you still can. If you can't manage that, get yourself some weapons for you AND your family and make sure EVERYONE is well trained, including the children. Understand that you will very likely need to use them. If you and your family are well trained and ready, they shouldn't be a problem for you. After all, they aren't even prepared for extended food and power shortages, it's doubtful that they will be well armed. Still, don't let your guard down and you will survive.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
When people say to me, "I guess I'll be coming to your house if I need anything," I always respond, "Thinking like that is why I have guns."
Then I wait a moment and add, "I won't be able to help you in Y2K. But I can help you now, by advising you to prepare. So, if you come to me in Y2K begging for food, I am going to ask what preparations you made as a result of this conversation. When that day comes, and you answer, 'I didn't do anything,' then I'm going to turn you away, with deadly force if necessary. Do you understand that?"
I keep a very straight face during all this, and look them right in the eyes, so they know I am dead serious. They usually look pretty shocked. Now, I suspect that people I've told this to still think, "He'll soften up when the time comes," or "He'll set something aside for us anyway."
They are dead wrong. Remember the parable of the ten virgins?
"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
-- Lawrence (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
"I wonder how they would feel if I said, "Well, if I ever get too lonely, I'll just come over and fuck your wife." "
Wow. I LOVE that. Of course Lawrence's answer was better... but... it would be worth saying this just to see the look on their faces...!
-- some jokes (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
scary issue to think about. Depends on how bad/how lomg/where you live. all our situations are different. Here- we've got great neighbors- can't imagine shooting any of them- some GI- some don't- imagine we could all muddle thru though- unless outsiders showed up.
Figure that although we've got stuff such as generators and pv pannels and livestock, etc that others would want- we know how to do too much. that is- those around here who know us would value us more alive than dead- of course that wouldn't apply to strangers- hopefully none would arrive up here .........they'd just want the goods-
the reality is- if TSHTF- lots of us- even the GI's on this forum, just won't make it- if it really got that bad. and not because we didn't store enough water and beans for our families- but because of outsiders and violence and illness we can't fortell and so many other possibilities. Not a pleasant thought- but reality. If you think about it- there are no guarantees in life. and life isn't always fair. We can only try to do our best to prepare for whatever may happen- and help whom we can.
-- farmer (email@example.com), July 27, 1999.
Good points. It is really important to be linked in a cooperative way with our neighbors. Of course, it makes a difference if you are living in a big city or a rural setting. We do need each other, and isolation may preserve some groceries, but also cuts one off from assistance at a critical time.
Falling prey to looters will only happen when the neighbors ignore each other's peril. If looters understand they are taking their lives in their hands by entering a neighborhood, they will usually look for easier pickings.
IMHO, storing basic grains which require some effort to convert to usable food is the best way to provide assistance. Such help will sustain life, but is not an easy meal. Probably no one would bother to steal a bag of wheat, because of the effort required to make it into bread. Likewise corn and soy beans, but they provide excellent nutrition. I really cannot see turning neighbors away. There will be plenty of grain to go around if we teach others how to prepare it.
-- gene (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 27, 1999.
"If you think about it- there are no guarantees in life. and life isn't always fair."
Actually, life is completely UNfair, from start to finish.
Otherwise, gotta agree with what you're saying.
-- not looking (email@example.com), July 28, 1999.
Life is full of decisions every day. Some of them have far reaching consequences. Regardless, we each must live with the decisions we make. Sooner or later, some semblance of law and order will be restored. There will be accountability eventually.
I am expecting to do both - feed some and turn away others (with whatever force becomes necessary). It all depends on the situation at hand. For example, how large has my group swelled to? How much food/water, etc. do I have left for my own family? How large is the group asking for help? Are they sick? Are they capable of doing something to work for it? Do they also need clothes, warmth? Have they been here before? Are they the very neighbors who have been laughing at me for months as I prepare? Etc.
I intend to put up large signs that say something to the effect,
"Do not approach this property without making your presence known and then waiting for acknowledgement. Failure to do this will lead me to believe that your intentions are not good and I will respond accordingly."
I might leave a large bell that they can ring. All unannounced approaches will be considered highly threatening. Yes, we will be watching 24/7 until we can relax.
I do intend to feed as many as I can but I simply cannot, and WILL NOT, allow my family's safety to be jeopardized. I have purchased a little excess food, toiletries, feminine products, etc. for this purpose but when they are gone, that's it.
I read somewhere that you should never feed the same person/people more than once - that makes sense to me. Also, they should work for their meal. I've even heard that you could give them dog food - this accomplishes two things. It provides necessary vitamins, etc. It also discourages them from seeking further help later on. I'm not sure about that one though.
I have a neighbor who has stated that I am way overboard, and anyways, if it gets really bad, he'll just grab a gun and shoot the m***********s across the street and take their food. At least sub- consciously he has already planned on how he intends to get by. I consider him to be my first and primary threat.
I really hope it doesn't come down to lethal force. I'm not sure how far I'll have to be pushed to use it. I do however have the means.
-- tangbang (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 28, 1999.
I do intend to feed as many as I can but I simply cannot, and WILL NOT, allow my family's safety to be jeopardized.
Unfortunately, these are pretty much mutually exclusive. Once you start dealing with strangers or even "friends," you put yourself and your family at risk. Any of them can be armed, any of them can kill. Once you let them into your home, it will be far too late. All your preparations will be for naught. I don't think that's what you really want.
-- (email@example.com), July 28, 1999.
Thanks for the comment. I have considered this and will not let anyone into the retreat. All handouts will be done outside and only after I am confident that they pose no obvious risk. There will be additional people watching my back, both inside and outside. There will be another armed adult in the basement with the children and the bulk of my supplies.
Further, I have two seperate prep stores - one for the family and a second one for outsiders (MRE type food, hundreds of empty water/soda bottles which will be filled from tap water in December, cheap toilet paper and tampons, etc.)
-- tangbang (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 28, 1999.
WOulD It nOT Be bEsT To gIVE a SUrLy stRANGer A fEw cANs oF FOoD?????? HuH??? of COUrsE!!!!! HyenAs!!!!!! If tHE BUmpkiN IS hoLDINg caNS Of fOOd he CAnnOT SHooT BacK!!!!!!!!
-- Dieter (email@example.com), July 28, 1999.
1. I've decided to shoot only when violence is offered or threatened. However there are difficult situations. Suppose a family shows up at gate and just stays there. They don't threatened, they won't move on. Or a pair of 22 year olds who look dangerous. I point gun at them and order them to move on. they refuse and just lie down on ground. I can make things unpleasant, but you see what I mean - situations won't necessarily be black and white. Suppose one of them claims an injury or illness and endures cold water thrown on them in winter weather, or whatever? Sounds mean? If two young strong men showed up, I'd be thinking about how mean they could be to my wife and children. Anyways, I can't shoot everyone I don't like the looks of (will have to answer in a court of law eventually) and I can't play naive pacifist; in between is a lot of unknowns.
2. I have made many preps to feed neighbors. It won't be chineese takeout, but it'll be nutritious. Sounds good, right? But there are a lot of messy details. How to serve in the winter north? Allow them in the house? Like a camel in the tent? all at once or by appointment? And what about "emergency" need for a toilet by a family waiting outside. Too many people inside and we lose control or at least have a great risk of dangers. I will not trust neighbors at first at all. They'll have to prove themselves and that just takes time - lots of time. The issue is, the mechanics of feeding people. Putting a bell at gate is a good idea. A better idea is a bell on fornt porch or at least a ways form the gate and arope going to the locked gate. then the bell can't be easily stolen. pranks in a crisis are no pranks.
3. If things are worse then we hope, the charity food runs out, and then how do we turn people away? Or do we share to the last meal? I'm not inclined to that; I prepared for my children and that food is not available except to one set of friends with a simliar commitment. I prepared life insurance for their provision - I don't want that money given to others who could but didn't prepare by paying the premiums. Anyways, after the food runs thin, how to cut it off?
4. Maybe lots of the questions don't matter. Maybe there will be government food welfare distribution centers such as high schools and people can be referred there for fingerprinting and branding. Maybe with our gross lack of hygiene we'll have an epidemic apart from any biological attack and our neighbors will die, or from radiation sickness. (We have enough KI for our family, but stocking up for others gets real expensive real fast.) If we share the KI we make the whole effort of little or no effect. But maybe lot's of these situations won't come up and we never have to deal with them. Perhaps these are vain imaginations.
5. I'm almost sick of suggestion still made sometimes of having people work for their food. In wintertime, especially up north, there is little work to be done in garden and i won't be keen to having neighbors work in the house or in farm structures where I can't keep an eye on them. digging latrine holes of graves or the like goes only so far. One idea I had was to feed those that did helpful work for the elderly or for the community. I'm at a loss what to reward. And if I do, "who appointed me boss to decide who got food and who didn't?"
Well, it's my food, but we live in a socialist country. And many of those dear old people are the prime instigators of this fall. I'll bet a good portion voted for Lyndon Johnson, and for socialist democrat politicians. And their parents supported FDR in his socialist works. They still do! I listen to their opinions and inwardly cringe. Well, the move to a socialist nation has been going on and there are few who truly support personal responsibiliy and personal freedom. They worship the government instead of the Creator, and this is especially true of older people in my experience. How am I going to help them and not be overwhelmed by a communistic society?
"Let's pool our resources!" This means, THEY all pool MY sacrifices and share in them. Oh, I have a low view of human nature. perhaps I am more honest with myself about my own nature that I can see it more clearly in others. I don't know. I expect a crisis to bring out the best in a few people and the worst in most. And I don't expect that I can predict who will demonstrate their best or worst. I'll likely be surprised if history is a good teacher.
I'm not giving up. I have made thousands of dollars of preps for others, in addition to my own family (since I started a very long time ago). I don't how to handle all of the likely situations, let alone the possible ones, but we need to discuss general principles that apply to many situations, and to consider the details.
One principle is to not serve them "cake". Give them bare necessities like rice and vegetables, or oatmeal with no sweeteners. Then if they are more inclined to rely on you only in the honest more needful time. And serve them food outside or in unheated shelter (garage? shed?) rather then in the home. Set up a outhouse of a Sears camping toilet for use outside in some privacy behind tarp. That encourages them to work on their own house setup, biulding their own outhouse or whatever.
Another principle, I think, is to not let people into the house except for emergency medical care. And then to keep them formally or informally "covered" by an armed family member. We've seen small glimpses in other's expereinces here that neighbors won't hold to rightful principles of conduct in a crisis. In the crisis we might well be shocked by their behavior. After a deed is done, it's too late to be shocked and do anything about it. We will assume no one can be trusted at first. We still will live with these people for years after this is over, so we don't want to go into "bunker" mode, and point guns at neighbors coming for help. But neither do we want to be foolish. There is a balance between extremes, and considering the long term helps to keep balance.
Long post. Hope, despite typos, that this helpful in stiring some thinking and discussion. I learn form others and refine my views and plans from others here.
-- Programmer Farmer (Seven_children@home.org), July 28, 1999.
Maybe I should alot of bells!
As far as working for food, there will always be snow to shovel, wood to split, etc.
I like the idea of making the needy work for the infirm, elderly, etc.
-- tangbang (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 28, 1999.