Hello everyone - I have been very busy making all my preparations for no power etc., but I cannot cope with the defense question. My husband would never agree to having a gun and it would make me really nervous to have one. What I need to know, (and it will seem ridiculous) is whether I could make a pretty good defense from inside my home against people trying to get in. I would be willing to get a pellet gun. I live in Canada and we do not have so many guns here. I wish I knew how to booby trap the property a bit. I am getting extra dead bolts etc. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thank you. Sometimes I feel so afraid I can't breathe. My husband is not a well man. I feel extremely vulnerable, but can't leave the city as I have an elderly mother and other family to care for. God willing it won't come to such an awful turn. When I try to talk to my husband about defense he feels if it comes to that it is hopeless, but I sure don't want to go down without a fight. Sorry this rambles a bit. Just typing this makes me feel so tense!

-- citygirl (citygirl@idirect.com), July 26, 1999

Answers

Ciytgirl,

What is it that you mean by your "husband is not a well man"? Is this physically or mentally? Because if it is mentally, I would by all means then arm myself for it would be MY (and mine alone) decision. If he is physically unable to defend you and himself, then it is up to YOU to defend the farm. Get a knife and wear it on your belt. How about a good spray can of mace? Another thought... if your husband is not well physically, could he be depressed and therefore, be unwilling to fight because of this??? Only you know the answers.

I really think a firearm is the way to go, however. And then, take lessons on how to use it.

-- Mo questions (Maureenls@Worldnet.att.net), July 26, 1999.

My husband is not well physically. He recently underwent quadruple by-pass, and has not recovered full strength. Plus he is 69 years old, 20 yrs older than I.

-- citygirl (citygirl@idirect.com), July 26, 1999.

No one can ever defend a fixed position against a determined enemy. Weapons are not the answer, they can never be more than PART of a defense strategy, and usually the last resort. The bunker mentality is fatal. Your best protection comes from working with neighbors who are prepared for disruptions. You don't need a gun or similar protection, if you are part of a team that DOES have protection. But better than using a weapon would be to never need to use a weapon. If you can't form a physical team with neighbors, build a team relationship with some farther away, and agree to move closer during rough times. Perhaps all converge on one or two adjacent homes, pool resources there, etc. How distant are your family members? What you need to do is figure out what you have to offer such a team, and what kind of people you need to have in it, what they offer, etc. Everyone has something of value, something they can do. Maybe a wealthier person can contribute food supplies, and a team-mate is broke but can do blacksmithing. You figure it out. Either start by cooperating with a couple GIs and selectively invite members who GI, or select people who would be good teammates and get them up to speed on Y2k. You must be able to trust and depend on team members. Cities work against team relationships, by breaking down villages into mobs. To be safe in a city, you need to either get out or make your own little village. See

City Defense

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 26, 1999.

Unfortunately NONE of my neighbours get it. I have distributed Red Cross flyers and all and am weary of trying. Plus the advice here is usually to stop discussing preparations. I have a sister in the suburbs who gets it to a point, but it is heavily populated there too. I have convinced my hubby to get the Berekely Water Filter and am stocking up on rice etc. Perhaps when and if TSHTF I would be able to rouse my neighbours in exchange for at least the water. I certainly can't store enough rice for everyone (DGI family with 5 kids next door).

-- citygirl (citygirl@idirect.com), July 26, 1999.

There's no law that says your team has to be your neighbors. If you can't move them, and can't help them, forget them. You don't have time or money to save the world.

Use the web - ask others in your town to contact you by whatever secure means you can. (I know you can't give your right name here.) Check for community Y2k groups in your area, go to a meeting. Most such groups should be eager to help members network to build local teams.

By the way - the tension is perfectly normal, and you sound pretty normal, too. Early in the get-it process, overwhelming fear and grief is standard. Then you get over it and you spend your time wavering between SortaCalm/SuperTense, ImOk/IveGottaBeCrazy, YoureProbablyRight/YouveGotYourHeadInTheSand. Try to take some time off, do things that have NOTHING to do with Y2k, have a life, too.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 26, 1999.

bw - Boy have you described it correctly! That is exactly how I feel. I work for a local Councillor and am getting a community group meeting prepared for Sept. You would not believe the apathy. The City just insists all is well. So do the local utilities. No one wants to think about this in a significant way. Our police stations can't get funding for generators!!! They are very upset.

(By the way I am actually doing something totally useless and not Y2K related: Taking tango lessons with my brother! I really enjoy them too. Will never use it, but it does take my mind off Y2K for an hour a week. Though... maybe I could teach tango for protection?)

-- citygirl (citygirl@idirect.com), July 26, 1999.

it's too late to reconsider firearms when you're in a pool of your husband's splattered brains and some scumbag doing his best to make you bleed out your ass.guns are the great equalizer.many who've nerer,or rarely encounter violent situations fail to grasp the subtle,yet irrefutable locic of violence.If you don't prepair to resist the bad man,you're prepairing to be a victim.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

citygirl, I'm a suburban matron (too old for the girl part!) and have no one but myself upon whom to rely for help. Family small, scattered, DGIs mainly. Only one who isn't is unto himself. Neighbors DGIs who smirked at my giving them websites and printouts of info from forums, and didn't wish to prepare, see no problems ahead. Church sluggishly coming along, but can't rely on anyone there to help me. You say you are afraid of guns. I used to be too...all my life. Until an assault upon my person taught me the truth that I wish to outlive an attacker! It is amazing how one can go from recoiling at the sight of a gun to learning to shoot it, and to realizing that even as a deterrent, a 12-gauge pump-action shotgun sounds MEAN on your side of the door, as you warn invaders to back off! Someone posted that there is no way in which you can ward off invaders in a defensive position. Perhaps not, but then, you will not know if you are attacked and killed first! You may not have many guns in Canada...but it only takes one to defend yourself.

There are also alarms which work without electricity, when a door is opened and air pressure changes in a room, which should help to alert you. Someone posted on another forum the "layering" effect, which is what you appear to be doing: placing numerous deterrents that might discourage invaders into trying an easier mark.

It is not an easy thing to face, particularly for a woman either alone or with a physically ill husband. However, if you cannot find a likeminded team to join with, and I don't really know how one finds such a group, having tried unsuccessfully, then you need to do your utmost to stay alive.

May God bless you and yours in the days ahead. Perhaps others will give us both some more good ideas.

-- Insimilar Situation (ImALL@Ihave.now), July 26, 1999.

Tango is good -- those exaggerated moves can be set to "stun" or "kill". First, of course, you'll have to persuade the intruder to tango with you ...

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 26, 1999.

Dear Insimilar Situation,

Thanks for sharing what you did when threatened with bodily harm (...buying the 12 gauge). I still say Citygirl needs to get a weapon and learn to use it for her own PEACE OF MIND. Reactively, her knees will be knocking until Y2K, unless she has a nervous breakdown first. She has lots of stress and many people are relying on her for their safety. PROACTIVELY, the gun purchase (and lessons!) can mean self confidence and a sense of security by her taking the bull by the horn, rather than fearfully awaiting an attack.

Citigirl, what are you going to do?

-- Mo questions (Maureenls@Worldnet.att.net), July 26, 1999.

Citygirl,

I agree with zoobie and insimilar. I was VERY reluctant to purchase a firearm considering my family history of mental illness and one suicide. I thought about mace (effectiveness?) and booby traps (danger to you as well) and non-lethal means of immobilizing attackers.

Bottom line: Anyone threatening you doesn't give a rat's ass about you, so there's no reason to be nice to them. The most cost-effective means of self-defense is to purchase a firearm and enough ammunition to make you feel comfortable.

I would suggest purchasing a firearm (a Remington 870 12 guage shotgun was recommended to me by my local gun store) and training with it so that you are comfortable firing it and being safe with it.

Follow dog gone and lay REAL low before and after rollover. Hope that no one threatening to you attacks you in your home. If they do, threaten to shoot them if they continue. Shoot them, and finish them. Have bug out bags ready to go. You will need to leave after this occurs. Even if the authorities don't come to question you, someone else will be along soon to threaten you again.

I hope to be able to stay in the city, but I will bug my family out with very little notice if I have to.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), July 26, 1999.

By the way - when I said weapons are only part of the answer, I didn't mean to say you should avoid them. I've had various guns since I was 13, and consider them an important part of a total strategy.

I recommend the Ruger 10-22, and you can still find 25-round magazines, if you like. This has zero muzzle flash, you can fire it indoors without deafening yourself, you can fire 25 rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger. It has no recoil, and because it's a rifle you always have two hands on it. Excellent weapon for a beginner, even down to a 6-year-old.

The purists will tell you that it's too small for defense, but 3 .22 rounds are about equivalent to one .38, so 25 rounds of .22 is about like shooting someone 8 times with a .38. And only a complete dolt will press an assault if he knows you have any weapon at all.

Go to a shooting range with a friend who knows guns. Or go on your own - many ranges rent a range of guns. Have them demonstrate a couple for you.

I have a couple nephews who thought they needed an SKS to defend their home, and after I took them shooting with a 10-22, they decided they needed the .22. It's a lot of gun for a hundred bucks or so.

So find out what guns can do for you, then decide for yourself whether to arm yourself, instead of letting your fear of guns make that decision. But even if you are armed, remember that never having to use it is the best possible outcome.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 26, 1999.

Hey Matron - "girl" is in your mind, not in your years. I've seen 90 year old girls.

The 870 is good, but 12 ga is a big weapon. My wife is 5'2", and when she shot my 12 ga it spun her around like a top and we all hit the dirt. If you're not a big citygirl, 12 ga is too much gun.

Any pump shotgun makes a wonderful sound when you chamber it - the sound alone will scare off most. But if you don't kill with the first shot, you won't get a second. You'll be blinded and deafened, and in a state of semi-shock. If you use a rifled slug in it, you'll go thru three or four walls, and maybe a neighbor kid, too. And you can store 500 .22 rounds in the space it takes for 25 shotshells.

Look, try a range of weapons and see what feels right for you. And then practice, practice, practice.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 26, 1999.

Get a clue from nature. Your choices:

1. hide like a baby rabbit. Prepare to board over windows, place junk car in front yard, etc. whatever. Try to make your place, in whatever fashion makes sense in your situaiton, look to be of NO VALUE and to appear that NO ONE IS HOME. As well, you have to make it appear uninviting to others. SOme suggest a sign stating some disease within. If your violent type thug, high on alcohol or other drugs, can read the sign, and cares, then that works too. This is a poor choice of tactics, hiding. People relying on this will almost always be victims, in horrible ways. I'm sad this is the way the world is. Get use to it, deal with it, or die painfully.

2. Flee like a sparrow. Prepare to bug out and put your marbles in that tactic. Thi sis my last resort. With seven children, or you with a husband who is not well, travel is not fast. People relying on fleeing, and are slow, get "eaten". If you're well enough to travel fast, then you should use tactic 3 below. Travel in unsettling times will likely involve cross country travel if roads are closed, or watched by thugs, and in any type of weather. Can you imagine crossing woods and small streams or creeks in winter pulling a cart with young ones or an ailing husband? Won't work. This tactic is limited is scope of usefullness. Prepare a vehicle for extended travel (gas cans, maintenance up to date, maps, tent, portable stove, etc). You can run, but only so far.

3. Fight like a cat, a dog, a Lion, a mouse. yes, I've seen one of our cats catch a mouse and play with it. Cat let the mouse go only to pounce on it again. Cat let mouse go while Cat was lying on it's back. Mouse fell to ground -- and LEPT ON TOP OF THE CAT, SQUEEKING LOUDLY! It got it's head bit off promptly. But it went down fighting. This is a worthy mindset, not a squeemish sob on your back as the 5th thug has a go at you, wiping your blood on your clothes. I have no more pity on those idealistic, naive fools (in every sense of the word) that vote for politicians the take away our guns, that advocate the disarming of people, when those same fools get a dose of their own fruit.

I'm not being nice about this, I realize. But hard reality is coming close and I have lost most of my patience trying to educate people ahead of time. I care a lot about people suffering. But after you get rebuffed the umpteenth time, a person can become calloused to those determined fools getting a bitter, and often fatal, lesson. I hope you're one of these, and I respond because I don't think you are.

Which example from nature will you follow? Which are you equipped with? Does God care about you? Yes! Almighty God notices each sparrow that falls to the earth dead. But God gave each sparrow a set of wings, and beak to fight robbing crows, and expects each sparrow to use those provisions for their intended purpose.

I'll suggest something that I don't know. Perhaps your husband, like many others, refuses to get a gun because that mentally connects him to something he doesn't want to do. He's a afraid. On his back Jim Bowie shot the Mexican solders bursting into his room at the Alamo before dying to their charge, though wounded gravely already. Your husband and you need to be brave, take courage, and face reality of human nature now while you have a chance to do something. If guns are outlawed for you (and you voted for politicians who did away with them over time), then reap your sowing. Otherwise, knives and knives on long sticks (spears) and bow and arrows might help. MACE type sprays are deterents of limited use in a sudden fight with a group of people. There are many sprays that are not very strong on the market, the police have VERY strong ones not sold commercially typically. You have to look hard for good sprays. In the end, a spray makes an attacker very angry with *you* - you need another means of stopping them.

I wish you well. I train my children in the safe, and accurate, use of firearms. Look to the example of our pioneer forebearers. Life will become rough again soon enough and our artificial lives will show like a wornthrough plastic veneer. We play games, and go for walks, and have fun together. But we also target practice together and prepare for dealing with uncivilized visitors that won't go away just because we wish them to.

-- Programmer Farmer (Seven_children@home.org), July 26, 1999.

Thanks for the nice words, bw...it's true...we are only as old as we feel! But a 12-gauge that's 20", made for us small gals, and shot from the waist, can be done. Would rather be deaf than dead!

Also, citgirl, just came from www.y2knewswire.com and read article dated today in which an arch-criminal in prison says that big-time criminals are already planning big-time heists of big-ticket items. However, he says small-time criminals (or I suppose new ones!) will go for the homes. He then says that the big-timers are afraid of going to homes because they might meet GUNS! He says that a gun should scare off attempts at homes. Boy, coming from inside prison, these words really had an impact on my being glad of a gun (or two...in a handgun, have found a .38 to be acceptable to handle.)

-- Insimilar Situation (ImALL@Ihave.now), July 26, 1999.

Correction: I mean to say I hope you're NOT one of those determined fools, and I don't think you are.

.410 guage shot gun with slugs is good. 20 guage not much more recoil ("kick"). Wife and I are 5'8", 150 lbs, 13 yr son, 16 yr daughter - all are comfortbale with 20 guage. 11 yr daughter would do well with it in a pinch, with her experience with .22 rifle. Being comfortable with a gun is BIG factor in how well you defend yourself and family. Ruger 10/22 is great gun to learn with. Rely on 10 shot rotary magazine that are standard - they are most reliable. The 25 and 30 round magazines work fine but all have jams too frequently to depend on. Get "buckshot" shels for the 20 guage and get a "pump" model of 20 guage shotgun.

Practice ! Practice! You will get comfortable with it. THEN, it will be useful and safe in your hands.

If you rely on others to protect you, you are most selfish. You expect others to put their live son the line to save you life while you won't put your life on the line. Because you're "not comfortable" with guns. I've heard that so many times I might scream one day. I hope you or husband don't think this way.

Please, get a gun or two. I know that by posting here you are open and honestly looking for a solution to a need you see ahead. The need is real and the "Great Equalizer" is a gun. It makes a 5'2" mother with 3 children behind her dress the equal of a 260 lb savage man.

IF, a BIG IF, that mother HAS a gun, it's loaded, and she knows how to use it safely and accurately, and it's the right gun. But ANY gun is better than NO gun.

Programmer by day, Farmer by night, Protector of my wife and children always (to the best of my abilities, as God allows)

-- Programmer Farmer (Seven_children@home.org), July 26, 1999.

InSimilar,

Right, use whatever you're comfortable with.

Good point about shooting from the waist. If you're in a defensive situation, that business about bringing the gun to your shoulder is NOT what you want to do. Keep the gun low, so's to not obstruct your view. Keep your right hand tucked at your hip, so the barrel isn't halfway to the bad guy. And once you get to the point where you've aimed a gun, don't *threaten* to shoot, just shoot.

Citygirl - if you go to a range, hip firing may violate their rules. Ranges are often for aimed fire only. Find someplace to blast away in the woods. Set cheap cookies in bark cracks on fallen trees and shoot from the hip. It's surprising how quickly you can get good at this. Or walk along a path and pick out rocks and stuff ahead of you, and pop off rounds at them. Keep moving and aiming at different targets. Always know where your misses and ricochets are likely to go.

You might even find that this is a terrific way to let out your Y2k stresses!

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 26, 1999.

CityGirl,

Get a gun. If you or your husband can't wrap your head around the idea of owning a 'weapon', try thinking of it as owning a tool instead.

If you need to dig dirt, you get a shovel. If you need to bang nails, you get a hammer. And if you need to defend yourself, you get a gun (AND you practice, practice, practice...)

PS - The 10/22 is about as far away as you can get from owning a 'weapon' while still owning a valuable 'tool'.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), July 26, 1999.

Thank you all for your frank answers. Programmer/farmer, thank you for being brutally honest. Your post had great shock value to me and I can appreciate your frustration when people will not defend themselves. I will never go down without a fight. My question was how? Now I must seriously consider everything that's been said and do some research. I have no idea about our gun laws, but I am going to look into it. Perhaps you can appreciate how difficult this jump will be for me.

-- citygirl (citygirl@idirect.com), July 26, 1999.

Citygirl,

We're all doing a lot of thinking this year that wasn't on the radarscope last year. Hang in there.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 26, 1999.

Good luck, City Girl. We all wish you well.

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 26, 1999.

Citygirl,

In order to protect yourself and your family you must have a plan with several contingencies. Firearms are just one option.

Programmer/Farmer has something that no gun nor any other tool can provide. P/F has a ruthless desire to live. For the situation you expect to face, you too must have this RUTHLESS desire.

As far as mace type sprays go, you can make some very potent mixtures with chemicals and cleaning materials available at the super market.

Develop a plan. Arm yourself. Decide that your life is worth the fight.

Good luck,

-- Tom (nomail@nomail.com), July 26, 1999.

Don't overlook the option of a good dog or two.

-- Land Sharks R Us (prepared@home.com), July 26, 1999.

citygirl,

Lots of good workable ideas up above. If you check the NRA's webpage you will be able to get an idea of your state's requirements for gun ownership, and any other restrictions.

Be sure to find a good course in safe handling and use. Worse than not having a gun in a pinch is having one and shooting yourself or the wrong person. I think that in town, a shotgun will be safer for your neighbors. Even the lowly .22 will go through most residential walls, although it is quiet and easy to shoot.

IMHO if you get a dog (and I think it would be a great idea) keep it inside. The barking of the dog is a deterrent in itself. Outside, it may be poisoned or shot by thugs.

There are lots of defensive measures you might take, but some of them could expose you to expensive litigation if they cause injury or death. Booby traps and landmines are illegal anyway, so don't go there.

Even if your neighbors DGI, don't write them off. I don't know where you are living, but here in the Midwest we take a dim view of anyone harming our neighbors. I suspect there are folks in your neck of the woods who feel the same way.

Remember, criminals are basically cowards. That's why they prefer the darkness. If they perceive that you are armed and ready to resist, they will go elsewhere. Check out the information on natural disasters at http://members.aol.com/keninga/index.htm

blessings,

gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), July 26, 1999.

Neighbors that don't get it now may be more understanding as the power blackout goes into its seventh or eighth day. here is a story I wrote about life in a "worst case infrastructure crash" in an urban Kansas City, Missouri neighborhood (it's a real neighborhood that I was living in at the time).

Old Ways, New Ways

Robert Waldrop

-- robert waldrop (rmwj@soonernet.com), July 26, 1999.

If you shoot and kill anyone in front of your home, you will live to regret it. Attackers are never alone! Their buddies will come back later when you're asleep, and throw a "Molotov Cocktail" on your roof and up in flames goes your home and all your preparations!

If you do not want to kill, consider using a power water gun and put some Tabasco Sauce in the water. However, what ever you do to protect your home, there is a danger that they will come back and torch your home! I don't know what the answers are, except that if you kill or hurt someone, they will come back to get "even". You may want to stay up all night for several nights to protect your home!

-- Y2K ready (Y2Kready@aol.com), July 27, 1999.

Citygirl,

Remember to do your research and do it quickly. Make sure that you are physically comfortable with your firearm. Once you make your choice, practice, practice, practice. This is the only way to become emotionally comfortable with your firearm.

Good luck and best wishes.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), July 27, 1999.

Well, you've gotten some interesting stuff, here.

I like Farmer's attitude, but I don't find it necessarily selfish to divide defense responsibilities. I think it's perfectly ok to leave defense in the hands of another team member, if you have problems with weapons. (This might be religious, physical or emotional limitations.) Medics don't carry weapons; their contribution comes in other ways. Post Y2k, a doctor is probably not going to pull sentry duty. But it is NOT ok to get a free ride. Whatever you contribute to your group, it has to be worth their efforts to defend you.

On the whole, it's better if each person can defend himself. It's foolish to think that in rough times the police will be able to help. If we have enough trouble that people need these weapons, then the police are going to be totally swamped. You will certainly be more valuable to your team if you can handle weapons, which are truly just another tool. If your team needs to split up, you'll be vulnerable without your defender(s). And knowing that you CAN defend yourself is a real eye-opener, it liberates you from some fears. Women are trained, I think, to be more passive than is healthy, and can take care of themselves as well (often better) then men. My wife can nail gallon jugs from 25 feet, hip shooting, with her 2" S&W .38. I'm REAL respectful, ma'am!

Y2kReady is correct. If you shoot one, the others may be angry, and will certainly guess that you must have something worth defending. And there you are, with an unknown number of baddies out there in the dark, and you huddled inside waiting for what they might do next. They can leave one behind to wait for you to come out, while they go knock off a couple other places. That's why I said weapons were only PART of a strategy. The last thing you want to do is shoot someone, because it opens up a whole new range of problems. But personally I DO want to be able to do that, given the need, and having weapons gives that option.

You CANNOT hold a position against a determined enemy. But if you have some cooperating neighbors in adjacent houses, those baddies out there are in a crossfire, and they'll get un-determined real quick. One soldier in a foxhole is probably doomed, but a company dug in to foxholes can be immovable.

One of the dangers of having weapons is that it breeds rashness. A boy with a gun on his hip swaggers, and gets himself into dangerous predicaments. Gang members don't live long, because they make stupid moves when armed. Even with a weapon, you need to think like a rabbit. There is always going to be someone out there who is better armed, and hungrier. And by the time they get to you, they may have knocked off a dozen houses, know exactly how the homeowner will react, know when to bypass a home they can't invade. You don't get to practice - you have to defend yourself correctly the first time.

As an exercise, go outside and walk around your house. Look at all the places where you can stand, without being seen from inside. Imagine how fast you'd have to move in and out of the inside rooms and halls, to look at all of your yard. Look how easy it would be to create a distraction at one end while a buddy enters by a window at the far end. Your home is built for enjoyment, openness, and not for defense. Predators will see your house's blind spots real fast, as infantry learn to find cover in a six-inch depression.

For choice of weapons, here are a few things to consider. Everyone has a .22 and will either need or have ammo, so your having it means you'll be able to barter for ammo, or trade ammo for food. It's not perfect, a little light. I mention it here because (as Farmer says) it's great to learn with, and I expect you want to buy just one. I have one because I may have up to five nephews moving in, ranging down to six years old, and I want them to be part of the plan. It's the gun I wish I'd had when I was a kid. Ok, I'm STILL a kid!

Whatever you choose, make it a real common caliber. In shotguns, 12 ga is the equivalent mainstream choice. 16 ga is harder to find, 20 even harder, .410 the hardest. This might severely limit your bartering. A wildcat-chambered rifle may be absolutely perfect for mule deer at 200 yards, but next year it will be pounded into the ground and used for a fence-post. There will always be .223, .765, thutty-thutty, .22, 9mm, .38, .44, .45, thutty-ought-six and the like. .22 is also innocuous. If there are any gun confiscations post-Y2k, the .22 is the most likely to be left in your hands.

You really do need to practice. .22 ammo is about 2 cents a shot, pistol larger calibers run about 60 cents each, don't know the prices on shotshells. You can use up a lot of prep money on bullets. For center-fire calibers, expect to spend as much on ammo as you spend on the weapon itself. I and nephews put about 1500 rounds through my 10-22 for familiarization (and have had no jams with big magazines) for about $30. You can do lots more practicing with a .22.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your decisions.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 27, 1999.

A useful tool to get help from neighbors, once they do realize there is a problem is canned airhorns, the kind used at soccer games. Inexpensive, several can be given out to notify neighbors for help. Many people who are DGI are still anxious about safety issues even now, and may be responsive to this idea. Where I live, we all carry whistles, too, and have extra whistles in the laundry room, etc. As apartment dwellers, we asked for and got better security; more fire extinguishers, repaired fencing , close the gate at night. Those of us who walk dogs carry those big black flashlights at night.

Neighborhood watch and getting to know neighbors are usefu. Look for a natural leader, someone preferably with military experience, who can start to work with neighbors to address security concerns. A lot of people are already frightened and know nothing about y2k, and would appreciate setting up buddy systems to check in NOW on a regular basis for health concerns and so forth. There may be some GIs lurking who don't want to let anyone know they are preparing but will eventually show themselves.

Home defense, whatever methods you undertake, will be a lot stronger if you have neighbors you know. Trying to make friends and allies out of scared, confused, harassed, hungry people is a lot harder.

-- seraphima (seraphima@aol.com), July 27, 1999.

Dear Citygirl,

I really have no advice that you probably haven't already heard. But I will make a few comments that might be of some use to you.

1. Don't underestimate the damage a good sharp kitchen knife can do to someone who is trying to attack you. Many thieves are bottom feeders and they can't risk any type of injury because that would put them at the mercy of their peers. Therefore the sight of a sharp knife in the hands of a person who is not afraid to use it will sometimes change the mind of someone who has picked you at random. Knife wounds are very serious and anyone who has lived on the streets has seen what a single knife wound can do to a person and what the end results are. Therefore, if you have no other weapon, don't forget about your trusty kitchen butcher knife.

2. Mace and other sprays do not permanently damage a person but mace is not effective against someone who is on drugs. A better choice would be Pepper Spray which is sold at most K-Marts and Wal-Marts. If possible, try to find a pepper spray at 10% strength or higher. Read the package label and try to find one that is effective at 12 feet or further away. You don't want to get too close to the person you are trying to discourage. (Pepper spray is also effective against stray animals.) If you spray someone they will be in really bad shape for about 30 minutes and during this time you will need to figure out how to get them out of your building and back into the streets.

3. The best solution is a semi-automatic shotgun. For a woman I would recommend the 410 gauge or the 20 gauge in a short 18" or 20" barrel. Buy 00 Buckshot which has proven itself to be a very effective man stopper (killer, that is). Don't shoot someone with tiny pellet shots. You will just make then mad. If your life depends on the outcome, use the 00 Buckshot. The downside is what to do with the body when you have finished. If your attacker wins, he won't care what happens to your body. But if you win, you will have to have a reasonable plan for moving the dead body to another location. I pray that it never comes to that, but you need to think this through ahead of time.

That's all I have to say about weapons. Concerning the safety of your house and the fear you feel, I will mention a short Bible verse even though I know I ain't suppose to: "If God watcheth not over a city, then the watchman watcheth in vain." To the extent possible, trust in the Lord. But don't forget to use common sense also.

May God Bless.

Grandpappy

-- Grandpappy (Grandpappy@old-timers.hom), July 27, 1999.

There is a somewhat related thread over on the classic forum titled "Do you shoot them or feed them."

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00190B

Having read both these threads (plus some similar in the recent past), and then also in the context of what can be likened to riots at the recent woodstock '99 (supposedly because pretzels cost $4/ea, etc...), I am filled with conflicting emotions.

I am thankful that I am rural. I hopeful that we are rural enough to not be bothered. I realize, of course, that this may not be the case. I even thought about going in to detail about how far from the nearest unincorporated town, then small city, then major city. How far of the main road. That the "newest" neighbors have lived next to us for 27 years. That the ambulance got lost trying find our place once and the coroner got there first. That kind of stuff. Because I wanted someone to say, "You'll probably be alright." But I know no one can say that and that there are no guarantees.

Quite frankly, I don't know what to do or not do about it at this point. There's more I would write, but I just can't at the moment. Thank you.

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

citygirl, it is a very simple question, really. There are four possibilities...1)You will not be armed and will not need to be. 2) You will be armed, but will not need to be. 3) You will be armed, and will need to use it. and 4)You will not be armed, and will need it.

Which of these situations is the most frightening to you? Having a gun you may or may not need, or not having a gun, and standing before an armed criminal, wishing you had the means to defend yourself and your sickly husband?

That said, let me add that your fear and your husbands of guns, is similar to my fear about rollercoasters. I could not bring myself to ride one until I was nearly 30. It was then that I realized that there were 7 and 8 year old children mounting the ride with GLEE and loving every minute of the ride. Similarly, my 9 year old son fires our Ruger 10/22 WITH EASE and is not scared of it in the least. Indeed, he BEGS me to take him shooting regularly.

-- Copycat (dobbie@coastalnet.com), July 27, 1999.

I live approx. 4 miles from a low crime held (so I've been told) jail/prison. I have a 6 yr. old son & 8 yr. old daughter, my husband & me. We recently purchased a 12 & 20 rifles, we start our 8 hr. lesson on 9/4. I work for a gen. contractor & have made wood window coverings painted white to match my curtains, in case someone wants to throw a gas cocktail through the window, I've purchase carpet wood strips that have the nail coming through it & plan to install in on the top half of my fence in case someone wants to hike over our fence etc.I say the above just to give some clue of my situation, ie action When they decide to open the jail doors cause they can't feed them, & the guards aren't getting paid, we plan on protecting our children & ea. other when the above start walking into town. We feel all alone & not doubt we'll find out how many of us will come together, when the going gets tough. Take the above peoples advise, before you run out of time and it's too late. Judy

-- Judy Tillotson (JUDYMARYE@aol.com), July 27, 1999.

bw,

You CANNOT hold a position against a determined enemy. But if you have some cooperating neighbors in adjacent houses, those baddies out there are in a crossfire, and they'll get un-determined real quick. One soldier in a foxhole is probably doomed, but a company dug in to foxholes can be immovable.

I've mentioned this in other threads and never got an answer. Are the goals of a Y2K raid really the same as a traditional attack on a fixed position? I have no military experience but it seems to me that in a traditional attack the goal is to kill the enemy and take the ground they are holding. In a Y2K scenario, the goal is going to be to get the supplies. If you burn down a house you burn up the very same supplies you were trying to get at in the first place.

Unless you're going up against a real military unit (ie, well armed, trained and well supplied) the definition of 'determined' is going to be fluid to say the least. The more likely scenario is a bunch of cold, hungry and untrained guys trying to steal your stuff. Y2K hits in the middle of winter and they're not going to be ABLE to hang around and wait you out like a real military unit would.

Any thoughts on this from some folks with military experience?

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), July 28, 1999.

citygirl,

My line of thought follows that of copycat. Been on this earth nearly 40 yrs now, and up 'til now I never fired anything bigger than a 22 rifle. But my thinking on this issue, which falls in line with just about everything else I've done in relation to Y2K, is pretty simple. Better to have and not need than the other way around. Being prepared to use extreme force is not the same as using it. It is better to be in the position of being able to decide not to use it than regretting that you cant.

I have never been into guns in the past, but in light of the possible outcome 5 months from now, I decided that I needed to change my tune. My brother, who works for a local penitentiary and is already a gun owner, along with another friend who also owns, took me to the local shooting range. I was VERY nervous for that first hour, knowing that what I held in my hand had to potential to end anothers life if I were to make a mistake. In fact, I initially felt that this whole idea was a terrible mistake, and had just about decided to give up on it. Thankfully, my brother was very understanding about my culture shock and helped me understand what I was feeling. As others have said, the more I understood how things worked, the more comfortable I became. Probably the most scary part was that I might *accidentally* hurt someone since I didnt know what I was doing.

Since that initial day I have returned to the range several times and rented different models to see what works best for me. I have also become more comfortable that I am making the right decision  the decision to give myself as many options as I can. I dont like the thought of having to use a weapon against another person, but if I had my druthers, Id rather be on the closed end of the barrel.

My best wishes for you as you try to make this difficult decision. My suggestion is to actually try a gun out before you make your final decision - it may not be as bad as you think.

Another thing I try to remember is all of this Y2K mess is my "perspective" and roots. One thing I think that will put many of us at a disadvantage when facing the baddies is that we are so used to thinking in terms of what is right or proper. We are used to playing by the rules, whereas those on the other side have a different set of rules  basically do what you can get away with. When I get out of my civilized mode of thinking and kick it into survival mode, it becomes more clear to me that having the option to fight fire with fire is probably not such a bad idea.

EM

-- Eyell Makedo (make_do@hotmail.com), July 28, 1999.

"When you're dealing with death face-to-face, there are no rules. It's all about survival" - Jesse Ventura

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), July 28, 1999.

Thank you everyone for your advice. I have made my decision and it is not to get a gun. Before you flame me, let me explain. First of all that is just not the Canadian way. The overwhelming majority of people here do not own guns. I have lived in a big city all my life and have never been attacked; most of us have never even seen a gun; I know no one who has one, although I do know of two or three people who have rifles at their cottage up north for hunting. I'm not saying they do not exist, but they are rare.

Our gun laws are stringent. I could not even obtain a handgun as this is a restricted weapon and I would have to show why I need it. I would have to get a rifle. I know this is so offensive to you in the States because part of your constitution is the right to bear arms, but it is not part of ours and we have all lived always in this way of thinking. It has not served us badly.

My husband and I have given this careful thought. We have learned a lot from you. We plan to get the water gun for filling with hot pepper, and we have the usual crow bars and kitchen knives around the house. We are going to get loads of rice and beans so we can feed most of our neighbours who will then hopefully band together with us to face whatever is coming. We are getting the Big Bereky for water filtering plus filters for a year's supply. Also, I have recruited my brother to come to my home to help if TSHTF. That is just a start - I am going to try to rally more people, especially on our street. I like the idea of the street becoming a village.

I feel surprisingly serene with this decision (for the moment anyway).

I just cannot see myself killing someone and then having to bury the body or flee from my home with an elderly husband and mother in the middle of a Canadian winter because his relatives will come to pay us back. Flee where? If it's that bad the roads will be totally blocked.

Programmer/farmer, I will be like that mouse - I will fight like a lion - I have faced down two vicious snarling doberman dogs without fear and won - and I will trust in God for the rest. I have had the great fortune to lead a very sweet, happy, cultured life. Now I guess if I have to the pay the piper I still have been more fortunate than most.

The world post Y2K sounds horrible. If it's as bad as you think, no one can survive in the city, gun or no guns. I think sometimes death is not the worst thing.

Good luck and thank you all again for your kind advice. I hope I can continue to post to seek advice about preps.

Thank you.

-- citygirl (citygirl@direct.com), July 28, 1999.

Someone suggested getting a dog. My plan is to go to the animal shelter, TAPE some ferocious stuff, and keep a tape recorder by the front and back doors.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), July 28, 1999.

Oh - I forgot - I do have a dog (he's little but has a deep ferocious bark) - and I'll tape some dog noises too, plus big dish out back with "killer" on it or something.

-- citygirl (citygirl@idirect.com), July 28, 1999.

Actually the crowbar sounds like a good idea. I keep one under the seat of my truck just in case. In the hands of someone not trained in knife fighting it is probably as deadly than a kinife and certainly has more range. One good hit to the skull with those (sharpened) edges and they're out.

But what I don't understand is why so many people think its ok to fight someone with a knife, etc. but not a gun. Do you think youre gonna give them one little cut and they'll back off? Not likely. So either way you are forcibly inserting a piece of metal in their body to incapacitate and maybe kill them. What's the difference? (except for possible legal consequences). And the gun is so much safer.

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), July 28, 1999.

Biker is right - if you allow for using a knife you are better to allow for a gun. Even a .22 rifle. Hey, they're fun to plink with!

Citygirl - I do not think Y2k will be the end of the world. No way. I expect a 7,8,or 9 as most likely situation, but any case life for most (many) will go on. Bosnia has seen cities aflame worse than Y2k with the bombings and full scale war. City people (some/most) can and did survive. Preparing increases your chances.

Also, I drill into my children that we will ahve to live with our decisions after Y2k. There will be courts of law (whether the same or new ones), and wanton murder or reckless endangerment will be held to account. Our responses to our neighbors will live with us forever. This is hard. On day one we will not know if the disruption will last for a day or a month or a year. But we must bear in mind the consequences of our actions. I am loathe to shoot someone, and it will be in accordance with our laws for self defense (reasonable fear of immediate threat to life); but I will shoot. But shoot my neighbors? I cannot see this. We put in a $4000 handpump well capable of "watering" the rural neighborhood, and stored over a thousand dollars of rice, dried vegetables (bulk: 877-925-4040), and wheat (we grind flour ourselves and have non-electric propane ovens to make lots of breads). But violent thugs must be planned for. They don't have to be armed to do us grave harm and malicious damage to these preparations.

I am a Christian - probably the most conservative one you're likely to meet in your life, if we met. If you are truly reborn in your heart (spirit), then there is a peace that comes from being in God's will. May you be in that peace now with your decision. There is also a false peace, based in denial and self-deception, but from reading your posts I doubt that of you. God's peace to you. If you are not truly saved (and being religious or attending church isn't being saved), you've got a greater problem than violent thugs to deal with.

I've never laid awake at night for even a minute with any concern over Y2k, or wokeup in the night from it, even though I assessed Y2k to be a 7-9 in January 1997. Trusting God, and having good reasons to, is mighty good.

Programmer Farmer

-- Programmer Farmer (Seven_children@home.org), July 28, 1999.

The answer is no. Not for long. You should really consider options to bail out now.

Whether you decide to stay or not, you should consider reading this great booklet on basic marksmanship brought to you by Uncle Sam's finest.

the link is here:

http://www.artrans.com/rmsg/mfm.htm

The publication is: FM 23-35 - COMBAT TRAINING WITH PISTOLS & REVOLVERS

Don't be fooled into thinking your little .22 cal would stop anything but a squirrel. Perhaps a marine corps sniper would have a good chance from a distance with a good scope, but you'll be a sitting duck.

Shotgun, and sidearm minimum. Consider an assault rifle such as the SKS.

Now GO and DO time is short.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 29, 1999.

"we will have to live with our decisions after Y2k. There will be courts of law"

Another good reason to move to the country. If you have to do something illegal, there are less likely to be witnesses.

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), July 29, 1999.

I suggest you buy a tazer. It is a 9 volt battery operated shock gun that will basically knock down someone for a few minutes. It sends 2 wires with a harmless probe at the end of it that is more effective than a gun. It wont kill them and they won't remember what happened to them. There is a second opportunity to use it for point blank contact with the terminals of the gun itself.

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), July 30, 1999.

I am not getting a gun. Answering evil with evil doesn't seem like a right idea to me.

-- Another CityGirl (metoo@roochick.com), July 30, 1999.

Another city girl - will you still feel that way while they're raping you?

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), July 30, 1999.

It is indeed heartwarming to see such high moral values, respect for human life and dignity and consideration for life's downtrodden masses as some of you are displaying here. Unfortunately such elevated thoughts are wasted on those who do not share them, and there are quite a few individuals who demonstrably DO NOT share those values. I sincerely hope none of you who are afflicted with such major blind spots as to discount the presence or ability to do harm of this sort of person never encounter one in the flesh. If you do, let me humbly remind you that there are no victims- only volunteers.

A gentleman by the name of Clint Smith runs a repected shooting academy. One of his tenets is, "If you look like food, you will be eaten." Some of you appear to be buffets, and you should not be surprised if company comes for dinner.

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), July 31, 1999.

aaaarrrrrggggg!!!!!!.........MY ASS!!!....MY ASS!!!!....I'M BLEEDING!!!......BLEEDING!!!! WHY DID THEY KILL HIM!!!...HE WAS SUCH A GOOD MAN......WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT CANADIANS COULD ACT IN SUCH A VIOLENT AND UNTIDY MANNER!!!.....MY ASS!!!!!

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 31, 1999.

To another citygirl...You said...

Answering evil with evil doesn't seem like a right idea to me.

Can you please explain to me why defending one's self is evil?

-- Copycat (dobbie@coastalnet.com), July 31, 1999.

If you live alone, and you want to be a victim that's your choice I guess. But if you live with your family or close friends, don't you have an obligation to protect them at all costs?

Isn't it terribly selfish to protect your precious conscience, rather than your families' lives ! <\i>

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), July 31, 1999.

I said OFF !

-- biker (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), July 31, 1999.

self defence never requires an apology.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), August 07, 1999.