Just... as part of the Y2K back-drop. Some interesting comments on military response and National Guard usage.

*Sigh*

Diane

26 July 1999

Byliner: Preparing For A Grave New World

http://www.usia.gov/cgi-bin/washfile/display.pl?p=/products/washfile/latest&f=99072601.plt&t=/products/washfile/newsitem.shtml

(By William S. Cohen) (1210)

(Mr. Cohen is the Secretary of Defense. The following op-ed column by him appeared in The Washington Post July 26. COPYRIGHT: 07/26/99 -- Public Domain -- no republication restrictions. Please Credit the Washington Post.)

In recent months, the eyes of the world have rightly focused on the threat to American interest and values in the Balkans. At the same time, we cannot afford a national case of farsightedness that precludes us from focusing on threats closer to home, such as the potential danger of a chemical or biological attack on U.S. soil.

The United States now faces something of a superpower paradox. Our supremacy in the conventional arena is prompting adversaries to seek unconventional, asymmetric means to strike our Achilles' heel. At least 25 countries, including Iraq and North Korea, now have -- or are in the process of acquiring and developing -- weapons of mass destruction. Of particular concern is the possible persistence in some foreign military arsenals of smallpox, the horrific infectious virus that decimated entire nations down the ages and against which the global population is currently defenseless.

Also looming is the chance that these terror weapons will find their way into the hands of individuals and independent groups -- fanatical terrorists and religious zealots beyond our borders, brooding loners and self-proclaimed apocalyptic prophets at home.

This is not hyperbole. It is reality. Indeed, past may be prologue. In 1995 the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo used sarin gas in its attack on the Tokyo subway and also planned to unleash anthrax against U.S. forces in Japan. Those behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing were also gathering the ingredients for a chemical weapon that could have killed thousands. In the past year, dozens of threats to use chemical or biological weapons in the United States have turned out to be hoaxes. Someday, one will be real.

What would that day look like? A biological agent would sink into the respiratory and nervous systems of the afflicted. The speed and scope of modern air travel could carry this highly contagious virus across hemispheres in hours. Indeed, the invisible contagion would be neither geographically nor numerically limited, infecting unsuspecting thousands -- with many, in turn, communicating the virus to whomever they touch.

The march of the contagion could accelerate astoundingly, with doctors offering little relief. Hospitals would become warehouses for the dead and the dying. A plague more monstrous than anything we have experienced could spread with all the irrevocability of ink on tissue paper. Ancient scourges would quickly become modern nightmares.

Welcome to the grave New World of terrorism -- a world in which traditional notions of deterrence and counter-response no longer apply. Perpetrators may leave no postmark or return address -- no tell-tale signs of a missile launch, no residue of TNT that can be traced to a construction site, no rental truck receipts leading to the foolhardy suspects. In fact, their place of business may be a number of countries that are conducting bioengineering under the guise of pharmaceutical research. Penicillin for the poor, or ebola for the enemy? Who is to say, and with what deterrent is America left?

Preparation is itself a deterrent. By minimizing the death and destruction would-be terrorists hope to spawn, we reduce the likelihood they will even try. Yet a chemical or biological strike on American soil could quickly surpass any community's ability to cope.

As part of a federal interagency effort launched last year by President Clinton and led by the National Security Council, the Defense Department is doing its part to prepare the nation for the catastrophic consequences of an attack that unleashes these horrific weapons. Because it has long prepared to face this grim possibility on the battlefield, the military has unique capabilities to offer in the domestic arena as well.

Several core principles are guiding our efforts. First, any military assistance in the wake of a domestic attack must be in support of the appropriate federal civilian authority -- either the Department of Justice or the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Second, an unequivocal and unambiguous chain of responsibility, authority and accountability for that support must exist. Third, military assistance should not come at the expense of our primary mission -- fighting and winning our nation's wars. A special Task Force for Civil Support is being created to ensure that we have the military assets necessary to help respond domestically while still meeting our foremost mission.

Fourth, our military response efforts will be grounded primarily in the National Guard and Reserve. In contrast to their more familiar role of reinforcing active-duty forces overseas, our guard and reserve are the forward-deployed forces here at home. Special National Guard teams are being positioned around the nation to advise and assist communities upon request.

Finally, we must not and trample on American lives and liberties in the name of preserving them. Fears about the military's role in domestic affairs are unfounded, as evidenced by a long history of reasonable and successful military support to communities ravaged by natural disasters, such as fire and flood.

As in the past, any military support will be precisely that -- support. Both legal and practical considerations demand it. The Posse Comitatus Act and the Defense Department's implementing policies are clear -- the military is not to conduct domestic law enforcement without explicit statutory authority, and we strongly believe no changes should be made to Posse Comitatus. Also clear is that the military's unique assets are most valuable when used to supplement -- not supplant -- continuing federal, state or local efforts. This is one of the reasons we are helping to train the local emergency "first responders" in 120 cities under a program mandated by Congress and now being transferred to the Justice Department.

But merely managing the consequences of an attack is not sufficient. We must be vigilant in seeking to interdict and defeat the efforts of those who seek to inflict mass destruction on us. This will require greater international cooperation, intelligence collection abroad and information gathering by law enforcement agencies at home. Information is clearly power, and greater access to information will require the American people and their elected officials to find the proper balance between privacy and protection.

There need be no fear or foreboding by the American people of the preparations of their government. On the contrary, the greater threat to our civil liberties stems from the chaos and carnage that might result from an attack for which we had failed to prepare and the demands for action that would follow.

Mere months before the attack on Pearl Harbor shocked America out of its slumber, Walter Lippmann wrote, "Millions will listen to, and prefer to believe, those who tell them that they need not rouse themselves, and that all will be well if only they continue to do all the pleasant and profitable and comfortable things they would like to do best."

The race is on between our preparations and those of our adversaries. We are preparing for the possibility of a chemical or biological attack on American soil because we must. There is not a moment to lose.

(Mr. Cohen is the Secretary of Defense.)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999

Answers

And add to it...

23 July 1999
Text: Pentagon Release on Defense Department Y2K Compliance

(Y2K problem being treated as a military readiness issue) (1000)

http://www.usia.gov/cgi-bin/washfile/display.pl?p=/products/washfile/ latest&f=99072308.wlt&t=/products/washfile/newsitem.shtml

[snip]

All levels of the Department of Defense are preparing for operations during the Y2K transition period from September 1, 1999 through the leap year date, February 29, 2000 to March 31, 2000.

[snip]

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

This is a whopper, Diane. The implications are staggering...

Anita E.

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), July 26, 1999.

When I told my spouse (who is military) about reading that the FBI was shutting down tours, all he said was "It is starting".

Articles like this one only confirm it to me even more.

Thanks Diane!

-- (cannot-say@this.time), July 26, 1999.

Very interesting, Diane. This piece from today's Federal Computer Week is sort of the Cohen piece's "twin Y2K cousin."

(We already knew most of this stuff, but it's interesting to see it all in one place, and published by FCW. Adds sort of another layer to what Cohen was saying...)

DOD prioritizes Y2K problems -- State and local community assistance takes back seat to military operations

The Defense Department has instructed all military commanders to maintain their units' ability to go to war in the event of widespread Year 2000-related critical infrastructure failures, relegating local community assistance to the bottom of the department's priority list.

Local commanders at military installations across the United States and abroad will be authorized to "undertake immediate, unilateral, emergency response actions that involve measures to save lives, prevent human suffering or mitigate great property damage" in the event of catastrophic infrastructure failures, according to a recent memorandum signed by deputy secretary of Defense John Hamre. But the fundamental message contained in the memo is: maintain 'go to war' readiness. As a result, the lion's share of the responsibility for local assistance is likely to fall on the shoulders of the National Guard, experts said.

"As a basic principle, commanders will not compromise operational readiness in providing support to civil authorities," Hamre said in a memo circulated throughout the department in late February. Except for emergencies, "requests for DOD support will be considered only if submitted through the Federal Emergency Management Agency or appropriate offices of the Department of State," according to the memo.

Likewise, the DOD Year 2000 Management Plan assigns top priority to forces involved in ongoing military operations (see At a Glance).

A spokesman for the Senate's Special Committee on the Year 2000 Computer Problem said that unlike in Great Britain, where reports indicate the military is gearing up to guard banks, power stations and other key facilities, "there currently are no special plans [in the United States] to use the military outside of its normal role," but state governors still maintain their authority to call up the National Guard if necessary. "We don't expect widespread civil disobedience in the U.S.," the spokesman said.

However, several independent experts on state and local Year 2000 readiness recently warned the Senate committee that state and local emergency agencies may not be prepared to respond in the event of multiple, widespread failures that occur in the dead of winter. As a result, the National Guard and other DOD organizations could become, whether they like it or not, key players in civil assistance operations, experts said.

In fact, a report published this month by the General Accounting Office concluded that only two of the 21 largest cities in the country are fully prepared for the Year 2000 date change. In fact, "relatively few [cities] reported completing [Year 2000 fixes to] water and waste water treatment systems, public building systems and emergency service systems," according to the report. However, the failure of these types of systems "could lead to a breakdown in a city's infrastructure, potentially seriously affecting city residents," the report said.

"There are many in this country who are not able to prepare or care for themselves in an emergency," said Paloma O'Riley, co-founder of the Cassandra Project, a grass-roots organization focusing on individual Year 2000 preparedness. "DOD can say all they want that it's not their charter, but they know that people will be knocking on their door," O'Riley said.

O'Riley, who recently returned from Alaska where she met with military officials from the Alaskan Command headquarters and various National Guard units, said DOD officials there are taking a different approach than the rest of the department when it comes to Year 2000 assistance, proactively offering their help to local officials. "They see themselves as having a responsibility to the community," O'Riley said. "They are the only military group that I've talked to that really sees themselves as having a role in community assistance."

Dusty Finley, Alaska's Year 2000 coordinator, said DOD's Alaskan Command has been "very openly and aggressively" cooperating with local civilian authorities in developing a public outreach program. The Alaskan Command has developed what he called one of the "most detailed operations orders ever" that spells out what the military will do to support Alaska's civilian communities, 90 percent of which are accessible only by air or dogsled, he said. "This is out of character with what we see happening elsewhere," Finley said. The military is "uniquely postured" to help with emergency response, Finley said.

Norman Dean, executive director of the Center for Y2K and Society, said that while some states have decided that they will activate the National Guard, the use of DOD assets is probably more appropriate as a "contingency plan of last resort." However, "the nation does not need additional 'conversations' about Y2K; we need action," Dean said.

"Without the military, the civilian authorities may not be able to assist in a timely manner," Finley said. "It's a cooperative effort, and ultimately it has to be."

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), July 26, 1999.

Yes, and the optimists continue their slumber...

PAPER: INDIA, PAKISTAN WERE AT BRINK OF NUCLEAR WAR

The full dimensions of the recent crisis between India and Pakistan over Kashmir are only now coming to light, the WASHINGTON POST is set to report on Monday.

According to publishing sources, the paper is set to quote senior Clinton administration officials: the latest conflict over Kashmir came much closer to full-scale war than was publicly acknowledged at the time and raised very real fears that one or both countries would resort to using variants of the nuclear devices each tested last year.

The POST'S John Lancaster quotes a senior administration official close to the action: "This is one of the most dangerous situations on the face of the earth... It was very, very easy to imagine how this crisis... could have escalated out of control, including in a way that could have brought in nuclear weapons, without either party consciously deciding that it wanted to go to nuclear war."

Tensions peaked two months ago as Pakistani and Indian forces intensified their fighting over the province of Kashmir -- which both sides claim as their own.

"India, it seemed, was preparing to invade its neighbor."

According to the paper, "President Clinton helped avert that prospect during his widely reported Independence Day meeting with Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who agreed after hours of tense discussions to withdraw the forces that had triggered the flare-up in early May."

Even U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott left the Hamptons vacation scene to stop the potential annihilation.

-- a (a@a.a), July 26, 1999.

'Mere months before the attack on Pearl Harbor shocked America out of its slumber, Walter Lippmann wrote, "Millions will listen to, and prefer to believe, those who tell them that they need not rouse themselves, and that all will be well if only they continue to do all the pleasant and profitable and comfortable things they would like to do best." '

Replace "Pearl Habor" with "Y2K" in the above sentence. Oh those wacky 1941 doomers. They could start a panic!

Anyway, Mr. Cohen brings up a few valid points. We will be facing these threats in the future. Something must be done.

The question is, will it be done with us or to us?

I will be more than happy to buy my own NBC suit and modify my home to act as a fallout/bug shelter so I do not burden the government with the need to protect me. I think we all should prepare. The government can help by providing information on how. They can also design responses to these unconventional attacks for communities to follow. This way they won't need many National Guard response teams. Yes Sir, Mr. Cohen, we ready to do our part.

'There need be no fear or foreboding by the American people of the preparations of their government. On the contrary, the greater threat to our civil liberties stems from the chaos and carnage that might result from an attack for which we had failed to prepare and the demands for action that would follow.'

Why mention threats to civil liberties? Sorry, why mention "greater" threats to civil liberties? Do the measures they plan to take involve altering our current civil liberties?

Guard your civil liberties and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), July 26, 1999.

Thanks Diane and Patrick.

Not exactly the way I wanted to start my week off : (

We've had more than our share of biochem attacks recently here in the L.A. area and the've been scary. Are they hoaxes or tests?

If they're tests to see emergency response time, tactics, gage reaction (especially media reaction), etc., then which side is testing?

I gotta get my family outta here.

Mike

===================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), July 26, 1999.

pshannon,

That is indeed a... Cohen "twin Y2K cousin."

Man, oh man! Y2K... trigger effect? Or just piled higher and deeper on top of what is already about to boil over.

Diane (cafe latte time... relax... relax... and Michael... GET OUT OF L.A.! Course, I'd say that in "normal" times too).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

I particularly liked the phrase....

"Preparation is itself a deterrent!"

-- (snowleopard6@webtv.net), July 26, 1999.

Please re-read again what Diane posted...and let it SINK IN.

Take special note of the following: "There need be no fear or foreboding by the American people of the preparations of their government."

Of that be very afraid. The path to tyranny has been well-paved by this government for over 35 years. As a matter-of-fact, this government is FAR more oppressive than even that of King George the III. Whether real or staged, events on the scale that Mr. Cohen is talking about would bring an abrupt end to the style of governance we are currently used to. The insidiousness of it is that the American Dolts will DEMAND such Statist interventions to allow them to hold onto what material and comforts they are accustomed.

But more than that...shouldn't the question be: WHY are we in this mess to begin with?

In a word: complacency. From John Q. Public right on up to Billy Jeff Clinton. WE are ALL responsible for allowing ourselves to get into this mess!

Which is why we WILL experience a "life altering event" in the near future, Y2K or no.

But on an aside note to the pollyannas, Mr.Cohen writes regarding preparation (and I'm throwing Y2K preps into that statement): "...the greater threat to our civil liberties stems from the chaos and carnage that might result from an attack for which we had failed to prepare and the demands for action that would follow. (anyone now wonder WHY the Gov. is still silent about Y2K?)

I will say that the greater threat to our civil liberties stems from ceding our personal responsibilities to the government or some other group...to fix all our problems.

But my favorite quote of the day, that describes pollyannas and the American public better than anything else I've read: "Walter Lippmann wrote, "Millions will listen to, and prefer to believe, those who tell them that they need not rouse themselves, and that all will be well if only they continue to do all the pleasant and profitable and comfortable things they would like to do best." This of course written BEFORE Pearl was attacked. Did anyone listen? No. And how many DIED there as a result?

Which is why if you live 50 miles from a 7-11 or Burger King...you're toast. Maybe even glow-in-the-dark or microbe radiating toast.

Be afraid people...be very afraid.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 26, 1999.

Yeah, be afraid.

Here's why:

"The Posse Comitatus Act and the Defense Department's implementing policies are clear -- the military is not to conduct domestic law enforcement without explicit statutory authority, and we strongly believe no changes should be made to Posse Comitatus."

That is a lie. The PCA does *not* apply to the Navy or the Marines. Plus, recent decisions and analysis of the act make it *very* clear that in an "emergency", the act is meaningless, even regarding the Army.

Why would the Secretary of Defense promulgate that lie? There are only two possibilities: ignorance, or strategy.

The former is absurd to consider, which leaves us with the latter.

So yes, do be afraid.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), July 26, 1999.

So we don't have to wait until September 1 to see inklings ("The march of the contagion could accelerate astoundingly, with doctors offering little relief. Hospitals would become warehouses for the dead and the dying. A plague more monstrous than anything we have experienced could spread with all the irrevocability of ink on tissue paper. Ancient scourges would quickly become modern nightmares") of what's speeding around the corner, delivered in all its complexity by Agent Y2K.

Thanks for the alert, Diane & PShannon.

We now await the loony fowl squawks about how William S. Cohen, Secretary of Defense, has been infected with the doomer meme LOL

"There need be no fear or foreboding by the American people of the preparations of their government."
If that isn't a bold stark warning of PREPARATION activity soon to become visible!

"Prepare" word used 8 times. Duh. This Forum is for those who see something to PREPARE for, with a definite intractable deadline.

Remember, terrorism is the catchword cover for Y2K. And Y2K will provide the chaos cover for disgusting opportunists.

Time Will Tell, Prepare For Hell

xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), July 26, 1999.

As with so much in this Administration, the need to parse Cohen's statements is in order to understand possible with and withouts of intentions.

First a point: Remember that we are in this mess under Clinton's watch. I don't know about you but I felt much safer under Reagan and Bush, even under the threat of Soviet missles than I do now. Again ask yourself WHY we are in this vulnerable mess.

Now onto parsing: "A special Task Force for Civil Support is being created to ensure that we have the military assets necessary to help respond domestically while still meeting our foremost mission. "

Does he mean like a Randy Weaver/David Koresh situation, or a standoff with foreign nationals with tanks and artillery about to attack The Washington Monument? Respond to what? A suitcase bomb? Will they employ antitank units before or after the suitcase goes off?

"Special National Guard teams are being positioned around the nation to advise and assist communities upon request. "

"Special" Nat'l Guard Teams? What's so special about them? Do communities have to request the "assistance" in writing? Can a community refuse "assistance"? What does "assist" mean in this context?

"Fears about the military's role in domestic affairs are unfounded, as evidenced by a long history of reasonable and successful military support to communities ravaged by natural disasters, such as fire and flood."

I wonder WHY there are fears of the military's use in domestic affairs? Anyone want to hamper a guess? Also, Cohen's use of "historical 'reasonable and succesful' evidence is laughable. We've never had a situation like this before now...have we? Are attacks on our soil now "Natural Disasters"?

"and we strongly believe no changes should be made to Posse Comitatus."

They "believe" no changes "SHOULD" be made. In other words, it's what they "believe" NOW at this moment...but that can change tomorrow. What they 'said" and what they 'meant' are all-to-often in diametric opposites in this Administration.

"This is one of the reasons we are helping to train the local emergency "first responders" in 120 cities under a program mandated by Congress and now being transferred to the Justice Department. "

Yes, the same Justice Department that refused an FBI wiretap request on the Chinese spy who uploaded top secret nuclear weapons programs and codes at Los Alamos, will now be in charge of helping 120 cities respond to disasters caused by "weapons of mass destruction". Ironic...'aint it?

"Information is clearly power, and greater access to information will require the American people and their elected officials to find the proper balance between privacy and protection. "

In other words, you need to give-up your privacy for protection. Soon you will also need to give up your speech, your assembly, your worship and your guns for "protection". Be afraid. Be VERY afraid of this kind of stupid-speak. it may sound innocuous and innocent, but I warn you...anything you give up for "protection" will be a weapon used against you. Ask history.

"We are preparing for the possibility of a chemical or biological attack on American soil because we must. There is not a moment to lose. "

Of course they haven't a moment to lose. Y2K is less than 5 months away, they've sold out our nuclear and weapons secrets for campaign dollars, bombed 2 moslem nations to get a sex scandal buried, waged an illegal war using a defensive alliance in an offensive action, cut our military to the bone and used it for a social-experimental playground, vetoed a plan for a U.S. ballistic missle defense, and pissed-off every single ally and adversary on the planet save England. Of course there's not a moment to lose.

We're sitting ducks....and they now realize it.

Thank you Bill, for signing our Death Warrants.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 26, 1999.

Thanks for the post. That ancient chinese proverb. "May you be born in interesting times" Do you think it meant this interesting ???

-- kevin (innxxs@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

I came back to read Cohen again and it really is a bone chilling "positioning statement". I think Ron is right on the money about this being strategy.

It's starting. What ever IT is.

Kevin, I don't want it to get more interesting than this but somehow I get the feeling my opinion just aint gonna matter : )

Invar, great to read your insight and perspective again!!!

Man...and this is only Monday!

Mike

===============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), July 26, 1999.

Invar, you provided an excellent summary of the accomplishments of the Clinton Administration. How can any Democrat with a shred of integrity support this man? Why were the gutless wonders in the Senate unable to see what was happening when the Impeachment trial was underway? At least the Republicians had guts, but they picked the wrong charges. Was Ken Starr a closet Clinton supporter who deliberately blew the impeachment so they would not try him again on the real charges? Was Monicagate a diversion to divert attention from the real issues, treason etc.? We will regret the day we let this pass. This was not our finest hour. The politicians here are pigmies. What would have happened if they had been in charge during WWII instead of Churchill and the other great leaders? Run Congressmen run (pasted to the front bumper)

-- Ray (Ray@real.sorry), July 26, 1999.

O.K. guys,

Time to do your homework, or "post it if you have it."

What is William S. Cohen's background? Why is he Secretary of Defense? Is he respected by the "troops" who serve our country? Who is he? What does he hope to gain by writing this editorial in the most political newspaper in the country?

An understanding of where he came from and hopes to go may provide us with a clearer "clue" as to the rationale behind this particular editorial at this particular time in this particular place.

Put on your sleuth hats. Mine the Internet.

YOU ARE HEREBY ORDERED TO REPORT BACK HERE!!!! (Hee. Hee.)

Think like a Democrat. Think like a Republican. Think about the upcoming November elections. Think about the run for the Presidency next year.

Having said that,. . ."Yo, Diane."

A spicy find indeed.

I'll be tuning in. . .

:)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), July 26, 1999.

A little blip, courtesy of another poster...

1999 CUES Seminar Series:
Y2K Crisis Management

http:// www.cues.org/99sem_series-y2kcriman.htm

[snip]

...Seminar leader John W. Rendon, Jr., is co-founder and president of The Rendon Group, a global strategic communications consultancy. His client list includes governments throughout the world and numerous members of the U.S. Congress. ...

[snip]

"...In addition, Rendon is a member of the Highland Group, a Department of Defense sub-group working on the public communication aspect of Y2K.

Develop a comprehensive Y2K communications strategy and help keep the hype under control-attend CUES' seminar, Y2K Crisis Management..."

[snip--to end]

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

Well Ray, I'm assuming your questions were rhetorical, but let's crack that egg together shall we?

>>>How can any Democrat with a shred of integrity support this man?<<<

He embodies their pure Socialist ideology which is to be treasured above all else. Not to mention the fact that they just LOVE that Clinton can snide his nose up at the "morallity mongers" in the nation.

>>>Why were the gutless wonders in the Senate unable to see what was happening when the Impeachment trial was underway?<<<

Simple. Remember the budget battle of '95 when Clinton demouguoged Republicans as wanting to cut school lunch programs and feed old people dog food simply because they weren't going to increase the growth rate of spending programs as fast as the Dems? Republicans never to-this-date have recovered from that political blindsiding. You have to remember, Clinton and the Liberal Democrats use emotional arguments to make their case. Most Republicans tried to inform the public with facts. With our dumbed-down TV IQ's today....you do the math, and maybe we'll discover why the Y2K argument has fallen on the same fate. In this society today, emotionalism wins out over logic and fact every day.

>>>Was Ken Starr a closet Clinton supporter who deliberately blew the impeachment so they would not try him again on the real charges?<<<

No, Starr had a pure love for the law. But since it went against Clinton, the amount of demouguoging and public assasination of his character was too shrewd for him to go into more weightier matters without ending up like Vince Foster or Ron Brown, and he knew it. He simply took the path that would keep him alive.

>>>Was Monicagate a diversion to divert attention from the real issues, treason etc.? <<<

Probably. But the American people don't even care about treason anymore. As long as they are fat, happy and hedonistic, they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves. ....but they will...they will. Once the blinding white light of nukes and chemical bombs lay our cities waste. But then, as you know...it's too late.

Another example of why it's ALL our fault we let this nation go to pot.

>>>We will regret the day we let this pass. This was not our finest hour. The politicians here are pigmies.<<

That's a given.

>>>What would have happened if they had been in charge during WWII instead of Churchill and the other great leaders?<<<

We would be enjoying the benefits of Axis totalitarianism, or the Northeast Liberal Establishment would have seats in the American Politburo, whilst you and I wait in line for bread, wondering where our relatives and friends have dissappeared to.

You laugh. That may yet be our future.

Re-read this Op-ed piece by Cohen. Let it sink in good. Something mighty BIG is on the horizon...and it aint just Y2K.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 26, 1999.

This is what Cohen had to say just four days ago about the extent of military involvement and y2k. This was during the Q&A period - DoD News Briefing.

Transcript: U.S. Department of Defense Ready for Y2K

DoD News Briefing
Thursday, July 22, 1999
Presenter: Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen

Q: Are there any contingency plans being drawn up that would involve the military being used in operations domestically in case of civil unrest or discontinuation of services?

Secretary Cohen: As I mentioned in my statement, there are contingency plans dealing with a domestic situation. If a city or town or community suddenly finds itself without basic services, the lead agency would be FEMA. We would act under the jurisdiction of FEMA to respond to any needs that that community might have. So we're kind of a backup contingency planning operation to provide whatever service the civilian authorities would request or require. But that is what we're planning for right now.

Q: Is that under the guidelines of PDD-63?

Secretary Cohen: It would be under the existing guidelines, yes.

Ok, so what has changed since he made that statement just four days ago? Or did I miss something? Or was it because he wasn't asked 'directly' about what the military plans to do about y2k and terrorism?

-- flb (fben4077@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

I found one clue. An "official" clue.

http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/secdef_bio.html

What does it mean?

Well, we know this man has been trained as a lawyer. We also know he is a veteran politician. We also know he was a "player" during the terms(s) of Republican presidents, and currently has a Cabinet level position in a Democratic administration.

But why is he where he is today, and what got him there?

Anyone wearing a "radar" cap?

:)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), July 26, 1999.

INVAR, said:

First a point: Remember that we are in this mess under Clinton's watch. Blah blah blah Etc Etc Etc blah blah blah

INVAR, its a Republican congress, genius. Can you not at least get the blame distributed correctly? How do you think those EO's got passed? Clinton just stuck 'em in when no one was looking?

It was proven in a Senate court that Reagan and his buddy Ollie North tried to subvert the constitution and run a covert "government within government". Does that not set off alarm bells for you?

And what's this crap about "Cohen trying to make us paranoid?" I think you and Andy are in charge of that. So, let me ask you, when the first terrorist action occurs, you will be certain that it was "planned" by the DoD right?

Singling out the government to blame for this mess is not the solution, at least at this point. It is not reasonable to think the government would just throw up their hands and say "OK - we quit. Anarchy reigns!" Lets try to figure out how to make the best of what is coming down the pike - if its martial law, obey it. Don't be so quick to think that everyday folks like the USNG and USMC are destined to enslave you.

Even if what you say is true, so what? You are just TALKING about it. They are DOING it. Try to be more constructive.

-- a (a@a.a), July 26, 1999.

FM,

Like everyone else in this Administration, Cohen is a F.O.B.

(Not to be confused with S.O.B., which of course our Commander-in- Zipper is.)

More succinctly, he was roomies with Bill and Hillary during Bubbas Rhodes Scholar days, if memory serves. Does I win the Cupie doll?

...or was that Strobe Talbot???? It's so hard to keep track of all the buds and bodies surrounding this mafioso. (no offense to the mob intended here...youse guys run a much smoother and cleaner operation...not to mention that you're not traitors).

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 26, 1999.

Apologies.

I posted right away, with a follow up to my post before I realized others were already responding.

Hot thread indeed.

The question remains, however: What does this man want?

I'm quite certain he put his signature on that editorial.

There is a reason.

:)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), July 26, 1999.

FM...

Biography:

William S. Cohen
Secretary of Defense

http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/about/bios/cohen.html

The same at Defenselink...

http:// www.defenselink.mil/bios/secdef_bio.html

Pretty much the same at NATO...

http:// www.otan.nato.int/usa/cv/cohen.htm

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

Diane,

Reading through your post regarding the Rendon Group, my "first blush" reaction is that this particular PR Firm--if it is indeed serving as a consultant to Cohen's group--has perceived the threat of martial law as having appeared on the "radar screen" of the American public's conscience.

If indeed I am correct (and you know that I ALWAYS reserve the right to be wrong) this editorial could mean that the Defense Department is taking the stance that the "best defense is a good offense."

In short, if certain areas of America experience serious infrastructure disruptions as a result of Y2k, the "powers that be" may be thinking it is better to "pre-condition" the public to the idea of seeing National Guard troops in the street--well in advance.

Having said that, do I rule out anything?

No. I've interviewed too many politicians over the years. LOL!

This was a good find, regardless.

Let's see how it plays out.

'Getting some sleep now!

God bless!

:)

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), July 26, 1999.

Do get some sleep FM.

We KNOW the Rendon Group is also one of Koskinen's P.R. firms.

http://www.rendon.com/

See thread...

Check out the Navy's Virtual Community Conversation on 6/15, and a look at who created the .gov Community Conversation series.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 00106v

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

Diane: Have served in the military for 24 yrs and have maintained contact since retiring, my uneasiness comes from Mr. Cohen's remarks about using our intelligence network and military to prevent attacks on the continental US. He and Mr. Clinton have ruined the military capability we once had. Our intell network is a shambles. How does the President expect to protect this nation within its own borders if he has hamstrung the two most critical items of national defense? Its one thing to play politics with our tax money by using giveaway programs to get re-elected and another to leave this country defenseless. Y2K will look like a picnic compared to what can happen if the terrorists cannot be isolated, found or stopped by whatever method. But then giving away the Panama Canal to the Chinese does show their like of foresight doesn't it?

-- Neil G. Lewis (pnglewis1@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

FM,

Heres a cute little search exercise.

Go to Koskinens web-site and search on the term Rendon Group (Exact word phrase and All Federal Government) and see how many of the links are missing and/or garbled.

http://www.info.gov/ cgi-bin/search_y2k

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

--a,

Okay..let's box. I'll agree on the point that this all happened under a Republican Congress...which by that recknoning, you would have to agree with the fact that the defecit runup in the 1980's was the Democratic Congresses fault, as they outspent the revenue boon to the treasury nearly 3 to 1...RIGHT? But no, you'll continue to probably blame Reagan for that. See, this is how hypocrisy works for you Liberal Democrats. It's okay if YOUR GUYS do the shit, it's just the means to the end, RIGHT? But God forbid if Conservatives or Republicans do it. Hypocrisy at it's height.

>>>How do you think those EO's got passed? Clinton just stuck 'em in when no one was looking?<<<

Why do you think they are called EXECUTIVE ORDERS? Are you braindead? They don't have to be passed by Congress, or reviewed by them. An Executive Order is just that...an Executive Order. Not to mention that many of these questionable E.O's were signed in 1993 and 1994 BFORE the Republican majority there.... But even so, Congress doesn't even read their own legislation they pass, what makes you think they're going to read the contents of an E.O.? That of course doesn't absolve their Constitutional duty as a check and balance...and they are accountable to us the American people. Trouble is --a, the American People don't care.

>>>It was proven in a Senate court that Reagan and his buddy Ollie North tried to subvert the constitution and run a covert "government within government". Does that not set off alarm bells for you?<<<

You Liberals never cease to amaze me. Alway the same stupid argument with no base. There was NO subversion of the Constitution you moron....Ollie North subverted CONGRESS....NOT the Constitution. A Democrat Congress passed the legislation forbidding the arming of the Contras. North circumvented CONGRESS, NOT the Constitution. Go and Re-read the charges against North.

But just for fun and comparison....Reagan and North as you state, giving arms for hostages and arming a rebellion against Communists...as opposed to arming the Communist Chinese with U.S. military rocket technology for ICBM's for campaign dollars. The selling of Supercomputers to a front for the Peoples Red Army for campaign contributions, and the total blind eye to Chinese nuclear secret proliferation and espionage of our most sensitive weapons secrets for campaign contributions to BILL CLINTON...your god. I think that when you question who's INTERESTS were being served under these scandals, I will venture to say that Clinton's interests were merely his own...and to hell with the security of Americans...something Reagan and North would NEVER have even contemplated much less execute. Clintons cares are always just about HIMSELF. Just review his MYRIAD scandals.

Out of morbid curiosity, which scandal is more likely to affect your "children" --a?: The subversion of Congress to oust a Communist presence in South America...or Chinese nukes raining down on the West Coast or Taiwaan?

Which is worse? The subversion of Congress by a Black Ops commander, or the subversion of our Constitution by our President? (Internet tax)

Which is worse? Lying to Congress as a Lt. Colnel, or lying to a Grand Jury as a President?

Which is worse? Lying to Congress on a matter of furthering American interests or shaking your finger at the American People and lying to them?

Iknow..I know...he lied about sex. That doesn't count. But God forbid you lie to a Democrat Congress! That's a hangin' offense!!! You morons are such hypocrites it's sickening.

>>>> And what's this crap about "Cohen trying to make us paranoid?" I think you and Andy are in charge of that. So, let me ask you, when the first terrorist action occurs, you will be certain that it was "planned" by the DoD right?<<<<

Whether genuine terrorism or a 'planned' allowance ala Pearl Harbor...it will all have happened under Clinton's watch will it not? The end result will be the same...dead, dying and suffering. The people will demand imposition of new safeguards and restrictions that will dissolve what freedom we have left, out of fear. The government will inexorably attain powers to "ensure" our security.

Just ask yourself...who benefits from such a scenario? Terrorists trying to make a point? Or others seeking to keep power for themselves?

Paranoid....bullshit. Vigilance is what it would have been called at one time in this country.

--a, you are a disgrace, and an embarrasment to our flag and all who fought and spilled blood to give you the benefits you take for granted. All for the sake of your ideological god.

Shame on you sir.

Singling out the government to blame for this mess is not the solution, at least at this point. It is not reasonable to think the government would just throw up their hands and say "OK - we quit. Anarchy reigns!" Lets try to figure out how to make the best of what is coming down the pike - if its martial law, obey it. Don't be so quick to think that everyday folks like the USNG and USMC are destined to enslave you.

Even if what you say is true, so what? You are just TALKING about it. They are DOING it. Try to be more constructive.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 26, 1999.

On those last two paragraphs in my last post....

--a, you will make a wonderful slave.

As far as "doing something about it"...I'm doing plenty. I'm preparing to be self-reliant.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 26, 1999.

Neil,

Thats partly why Im not as concerned about Martial Law issues.

You also might want to look at these two Federal Computer Week articles...

Critical Infrastructure Security
JULY 26, 1999
OP-ED
Rethinking critical infrastructure security
By Ari Schwartz

http://www.fcw.com/pubs/fcw/1999/0726/fcw-oped2-07-26- 99.html

Recent "hacks" against Pentagon, Senate and FBI World Wide Web sites have highlighted the importance of protecting computer systems against cyberattacks. Indeed, the digital equivalent of spraying graffiti on agency home pages (and denying citizens access to those sites) is the least of the problems. Critical infrastructures central to our economy and government -- including telecommunications, transportation, and banking and finance -- depend on networked information systems that are vulnerable to attack.

While there is no doubt that the problem of critical infrastructure protection is real, there is cause for concern that the hype surrounding the issue may lead to infringements on civil liberties. ...

[snip]

Perhaps one of the most questionable elements of the government's evolving infrastructure protection program concerns the lead role assigned to the FBI as home of the National Infrastructure Protection Center. Much of the defined purpose of the center is "protective." Yet the FBI is an investigative and counterintelligence agency with potent powers that do not mesh well with the voluntary cooperation of businesses on which the government claims the FBI will rely on to perform its infrastructure protection responsibilities. It would be better, on the grounds of effectiveness and civil liberties, to place elsewhere the infrastructure protection mission and the role of liaison with industry.

[snip--to end]

And ...

JULY 26, 1999
Study calls for reserve virtual IT warfare unit
BY DANIEL VERTON (dan_verton@fcw.com)

http://www.fcw.com/pubs/fcw/1999/0726/fcw-newsreserve-07-26- 99.html

A year-long study completed last week by a senior panel of Defense Department officials recommended an unprecedented expansion in the role the reserves play in national defense, including the formation of a virtual cyberdefense unit to protect the nation's critical infrastructure.

The study, Reserve Component Employment Study 2005, was initiated in April 1998 at the request of Defense Secretary William Cohen and concluded that the reserves are "particularly well-suited to homeland defense missions." ...

[snip]

The new reserve cyberdefense unit "would consist of individuals with information technology skills who could perform their duties from dispersed locations rather than working as a single consolidated unit at a specific training center," the report said. To accomplish their mission of protecting various critical infrastructure nodes, the unit would communicate from existing reserve centers and other DOD facilities across the country that have access to the Secret Internet Protocol Routing Network.

To form the new unit, the study recommended looking for reserve members in regions of the country where high concentrations of IT skill already exist. ...

[snip]

... "A 'virtual organization' [also] could support the Joint Task Force [for] Computer Network Defense," the report said. Cohen established the JTF-CND in December 1998 to monitor and take defensive actions against hackers and other unauthorized users who try to penetrate DOD networks. ...

[snip]

Anthony M. Valletta, vice president of C3I systems for SRA Federal Systems and former acting assistant secretary of Defense for command, control, communications and intelligence, said the concept of using the reserves in this manner is one that the intelligence community has proven works.

"When we did this with the intelligence community, it worked extremely well," Valletta said. "We have a lot of expertise in the reserves that we need to take advantage of." ...

[snip]

However, the idea of establishing a JTF for Homeland Defense also is an idea that some groups, particularly civil liberties organizations, may question.

"The main issue is the Posse Comitatus Act and the limits on military activity within the U.S.," said Mark Lowenthal, former deputy assistant secretary of State for intelligence and now a member of Valletta's C3I consulting team at SRA. "If it is limited to what are clearly DOD facilities, then there should be no problem," he said. "If it steps over that line, then there are some legal issues that have to be addressed."

Other recommendations contained in the report include using the reserves as part of a Joint Task Force headquarters for Homeland Defense, which would work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other civil authorities to coordinate responses to attacks involving nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, and increasing the use of smart card technology to reduce delays in processing reserve members for active-duty assignments.

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

I read this earlier today, and along with Cohen's remarks I am seeing something very scary unfolding here! I have a BAD feeling. Did you ever want to 'not know'?

CDC official on smallpox bio-weapon: Is the world on the brink of an apocalyptic terror-plague?l

The government has announced that it "requires a new smallpox vaccine to deal with the consequences if smallpox were used as a terrorist weapon against the civilian population." That announcement, via the Commerce Daily Bulletin, was the first time the government has asked for smallpox vaccine to be manufactured in over 26 years. The virus is supposed to have been officially eradicated from the face of the earth in 1972, but few believe that it was.

There have long been reports that some countries and terrorist organizations have secret smallpox samples and have been developing the virus as a bio-weapon. The United States currently has only 15.4 million doses of vaccine and last Wednesday the government not only put out a call for a minimum of 40 million additional doses of vaccine, but also said it sought vaccine manufacturers who could "achieve FDA licensure and initiate large-scale production of a new vaccine in the shortest time possible."

The government is finally acting, say observers, because fears of bio-terrorism are now no longer being quietly contained within the intelligence and scientific communities but are crashing into the national consciousness. For example, last week's New Yorker magazine cover story "Demon in the Freezer" gave shattering new facts about the terrorist threat posed by smallpox.

According to the articles' writer, Richard Preston (author of the best-selling "The Hot Zone," about the deadly African Ebola virus) the U.S. government has a classified list of over 11 nations or groups suspected of either already having a secret stockpile of smallpox, or of trying to steal, or buy one. This list includes Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Israel, North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Cuba and Serbia. Also suspected are the terrorist organization of Osama bin Laden and the Aum Shinrikyo sect of Japan which released nerve gas in a Tokyo subway in 1995.

Preston points out that last year "North Korea fired a ballistic missile over Japan in a test. ... Some knowledgeable observers thought that the missile could have been designed to carry a biologic warhead. If it had carried smallpox and landed in Japan, it could have devastated the Japanese population."

The tragic irony is that it is mainly because of the highly effective humanitarian effort to eradicate smallpox during the '60s and early '70s that the virus is now poised to become one of the greatest threats to mankind -- greater perhaps even then thermonuclear war. That's because today, should there be an outbreak, there is barely enough vaccine to keep a handful of the planet's population alive. Incredibly, the thinking was, if technically there's no longer any virus in the world, why keep the vaccine? Therefore in 1990, most of the World Health Organization's store of vaccine was destroyed.

To grasp the danger now posed by a hostile force with secret stores of both the virus and the vaccine, consider that before it was eradicated in 1972, smallpox was estimated to have killed at least 300 million people in the 20th century alone. And that was when much of the world was immunized. The reverse is true today. Immunization lasts only about 10 years, so the vaccine most middle-aged Americans remember getting in grade school has long since worn off.

Since the World Health Organization (WHO) declared the virus officially eradicated, samples of it theoretically only exist in two carefully monitored laboratories, one in the U.S. Centers for Disease Control facilities (CDC) in Atlanta, and one in a Russian virology institute called Vector, situated in Siberia. But, Preston writes, this was "never anything but a comfortable fiction. No one knows exactly who has smallpox today, or where they keep the virus, or what they intend to do with it."

According to Russian defector Ken Alibek who, as Kanatjan Akibeko, was one of the Soviet Union's top bio-weaponeers and the inventor of the world's most powerful anthrax, "Few Americans are aware that they are living under a state of national emergency relating to weapons of mass destruction." Alibek says that Russia kept literally tons of liquid smallpox ready for loading onto missiles aimed at American cities.

Although Alibek left Russia eight years ago, in his recently published book, "Biohazard," he writes of ample evidence, gleaned from intelligence sources and scientific journals, that his former homeland's bio-weapons program has never been dismantled as promised by a procession of Russian leaders through to Boris Yeltsin.

D.A. Henderson, who was the director of WHO's Smallpox Eradication Unit and is now a professor at Johns Hopkins School of Public Health and the founder of the Johns Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Studies, is quoted in the New Yorker as admitting that "the way air travel is now, about six weeks would be enough time to seed cases around the world. An atomic bomb could cause causalities in a specific area but dropping smallpox could engulf the world."

Leading epidemiologist and bio-terrorism expert, Michael Osterholm, reports in "Demons in the Freezer" that conventional wisdom about the ineffectiveness of biologic weapons because of the difficulties of dispersing them on the air no longer holds in the face of recent aerosol-particle technology. Osterholm says he now has sitting on his desk a device no bigger than the size of a credit card that "makes an invisible mist of particles in the one-to-five micron size range -- that size hangs in the air for hours and gets in the lungs. ... If you load it with two tablespoons of infectious fluid it could fill a whole airport terminal with particles."

In the light of these and other recent revelations, WorldNetDaily senior editor Betsy Gibson spoke to Dr. James Leduc at the CDC in Atlanta about how prepared America is for a bio-terrorist attack using smallpox. Dr. Leduc spent over 20 years in the military in the field of virology and bio-warfare defense and is now the Associate Director for Global Health at the National Center for Infectious Diseases.

To read the rest of the article click HERE

The remainder of the article is a Q&A session. Very interesting!

-- flb (fben4077@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

flb thanks.

*Sigh*

Time to chill out.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

INVAR: I meant that EO's have been passed by SEVERAL ADMINISTRATIONS, not passed by Congress. Can you deny that? But I agree - the people do not know, do not care, and do not understand. Much more interested in old flicks of John John's childhood.

I'm not a democrat. And I'm not a republican. I was a campaign worker for Perot before he blew his political brains out.

Regardless of how you spin it, Iran-Contra, Watergate and several other Republican scandals WERE MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN LYING ABOUT A MARITAL AFFAIR. Are YOU braindead?

Supercomputers, missiles, warheads, blah blah blah. The SAME SHIT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES. Just substitute Space Shuttles, satellites, milling technology, etc. Wake the hell up. These things don't happen because Clinton wills it to. They happen because the free enterprise system allows it.

Do you REALLY think that voting within the left/rightwing framework will change the system substantially, or prevent the PTB from manipulating the world effortlessly? If so, YOU are the moron.

Cohen is just doing his job. Certainly there are classified plans that the public is not privy to, it goes without saying. But these folks are generally incompetent, not sinister. In private, they're probably scared SHITLESS of what's going to happen. Unlike you and I, these guys will be in the hot seat when the party starts, and I can tell you that they're not looking forward to it.

And STFU about me being an embarrassment to the flag. My father lost the use of one hand in Korea, soI know all about spilled blood, son.

The world is crazy, yes. But its more complex than you can admit, INVAR. Don't be confused by trying to weave a pattern from every coincidence and conspiracy theory you come across.

-- a (a@a.a), July 26, 1999.

Just FYI - on Art Bell tonight:

7/26/99 Mon/Tue: William J. Olsen Expert in Presidential abuses of power via the Executive Order. Some folks feel with the callup of military forces and police units for January 1 Y2K possiblities, it sets the stage for martial law to be declared in America on Jan 1. Website: www.wjopc.com

I've never heard of him.. or heard him speak, so can't vouch for the quality of the show... just looked like it might be interesting to those reading this thread.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), July 26, 1999.

--a,

Your ignorance is overwhelming. I don't know it it's by choice or if it's simply obliviousness on your part.

>>>Regardless of how you spin it, Iran-Contra, Watergate and several other Republican scandals WERE MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN LYING ABOUT A MARITAL AFFAIR. Are YOU braindead? <<<

It wasn't about an "affair" --a, it was about lying under oath to a Grand jury, Perjury and Obstruction of Justice BY THE PRESIDENT...the Chief LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER of the U.S. I don't give a shit if he lied about playing cards in the Oval Office...He LIED. To A Grand Jury....something you and I go to prison for.

>>>Supercomputers, missiles, warheads, blah blah blah. The SAME SHIT HAS BEEN HAPPENING FOR DECADES. Just substitute Space Shuttles, satellites, milling technology, etc. Wake the hell up. <<<

Bullshit. Pure unadulterated bullshit. The same shit HAS NOT been happening for decades. We have NEVER sold our national soul and security for money before...even under Democrat Presidents who had more patriotism and character than the entire Clinton Administration put together!!! And --a, Space Shuttles, Sattellites and milling technology won't blast a few million folks to atomic dust if used aggressively against the people you got the technology from. So stuff it.

>>>These things don't happen because Clinton wills it to. They happen because the free enterprise system allows it.<<<

No, they don't. They happen because folks and corporations with no standards or morals circumvent security and safeguards for power and wealth.

>>>Do you REALLY think that voting within the left/rightwing framework will change the system substantially, or prevent the PTB from manipulating the world effortlessly? If so, YOU are the moron.<<<

No, I think like Jefferson, that we need a revolution to get this country back to the basic framework of the Constitution. We need a national repentance and a return to God. None of that is going to happen because of complacency...so the status quo has nothing to worry about save Y2K.

>>>But these folks are generally incompetent, not sinister (how do you know?) In private, they're probably scared SHITLESS of what's going to happen. Unlike you and I, these guys will be in the hot seat when the party starts, and I can tell you that they're not looking forward to it.<<<

Ummmm I don't think so. Right now, they're in the driver's seat...and I'm sure they will do what it takes to stay in the driver's seat, not the hot seat. The hot seat will be for the scapegoats that the Administration will blame for the conflagration. The Doomers, the Republicans, The White Separatists, The NRA, The Militias...etc., etc. BTW, I have recent Administration history to forecast that scenario.

>>>And STFU about me being an embarrassment to the flag. My father lost the use of one hand in Korea, soI know all about spilled blood, son.<<<

Did you fight it and lose blood? Got news for you son, most 60's generation flower power Marxists were raised by parents that fought and were wounded in WWII and Korea. That generation REBELLED against their "oppressive" parents man! Which planet you on? Read David Horowitzs' "Radical Son". I don't give a shit if you had relatives in combat or not. Do you honor what they fought and died for? If so, you wouldn't be saying "Presidential lies about sex...no big deal" "Nukes for cash...no big deal". "Lying to Congress about arming freedom fighters against Communists....THAT's a big deal."

>>>The world is crazy, yes. But its more complex than you can admit, INVAR.<<<

No it's not. It's good versus evil, as when time began. Simple. Same shit has been going on for 6000 years of human history. There's nothing new under the sun.

>>> Don't be confused by trying to weave a pattern from every coincidence and conspiracy theory you come across.<<<

Not confused. See it very clearly. Those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.....

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 26, 1999.

All right, all right! Let's not argue about who killed who....

-- Monty Python (teamwork@USA.com), July 27, 1999.

wow..."a" and INVAR knocking heads again...seems like old times... oh...Andy?

-- forum regular (being incognito@tby2k.com), July 27, 1999.

Monty,

Are we talking about the myriad stories killed to keep a political career afloat...

...or the 8 to 30 million who may be killed by expanding clouds of neutrons, fireballs or smallpox dropped by friendly Russians, Jihadists or Chinese?

Inquiring minds want to know.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

Holy cow.....this has GOT to be one of the best threads in weeks!!! (thanks to Diane, pshannon and others) I haven't been able to get on the net much for the last few days (damn farm)! I dearly admire both INVAR and 'a'. (please let them never forget their 'common' vision, which IS why we are all here, remember?) This heated debate has my mind jumpin' rope! I must admit, that in my heart (notice, not head) INVAR proves his points, hands down. The time has come to abandon left and right. When faced with Civil War, there will only be right and wrong, good and evil. The grey areas will get left in the dust, to be discussed in future history books, long after WE have been returned to the soil. Our actions will have spoken much louder than words. We must conduct ourselves with honor, patriotism, courage and faith.

Once martial law has been invoked, when will it cease? At what point will the American 'pubic' finally decide they can resume taking responsibility for themselves? They haven't been doing that since deciding to abandon and sell off the family homesteads. Those days are mere memories that exist in nursing homes or have been taken to the grave years ago! I don't see the ability of 2000 elections, that scares the hell out of me!!! The power play has been clear in my mind, since last August. Clinton has taken every step I imagined he would, in the pursuit of *his* end game plan.

There is no doubt in my mind, the current administration is and has been evil for their adult lifetimes. The agenda is crystal clear and it's head will begin spinning around spewing green shit any day now! The war will follow shortly after TSHTF with martial law in place. Just how far will those intrusted with keeping the peace (by both the gov as well as the public) be willing to go? At what point will these men and women begin asking themselves which side is 'right' and which side is 'wrong'? If faced with foreign threats, we at least stand some chance of acting as a whole, calling ourselves American's and behaving like a team. It appears quite obvious that this is the intention being set up by Cohen and others (for quite some time now). The blame game. They will blame 'foreigners' and then start passing out the red, white and blue pom-pons. All the more reason for us to continue harping about Y2K, of course, that makes us "TERRORISTS"! Do you get it? Can you SEE it?

I personally give WJC full credit for ripping my nation in two. Devide and conquer! Opposite sides of left and right, have now become unwilling to *even* speak with each other, and I'm right there as well! MISTER PRESIDENT has both sides windin' up like Popeye, just lookin' for a nose to land on! What a worm. By the time 'some' of his supporters figure it out, could we be looking at Revolutionary War? Only if our armed forces get a clue! Who knows, it won't be pretty, that's for sure. We study the Constitution with our children, in our home! It will be far more important to know and understand than some of the crud they teach in the public school system.

Be aware and afraid, be very afraid.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 27, 1999.

BTW.....as far as *I* am concerned, this is THE only aspect of Y2K left, worth discussing. That makes it a hotter subject than Y2K itself. To continue asking ourselves 'if' Y2K is going to occur, is dumb beyond belief! It infuriates me, as a matter of fact. "How bad will it be?" Who the hell cares, once martial law has been put into place by a Marxist administration? Get a clue.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 27, 1999.

Linda,

Thanks for the heads up on the Art Bell radio shows Executive Orders, Martial Law and Presedential Decision Directives discussion topic with William J. Olson, P.C. It was quite interesting to say the least. (Still yawning from such a late nite). More info on his web-site...

http://www.wjopc.com/

The search term for the day, over at the United Nations web-site and for pending legislation in the U.S. Congress this year is... Global Biological Assessment.

If I can dig up what a caller alluded to, well, lets just say, it will shift *some* of the focus of the Y2K game.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Just a quick point Will;

The ONE thing that is just a tad more detrimental to our freedom than martial law is.....

...Well, reread what Mr. Cohen says in Diane's post that started this thread.

The only difference is the insidiousness involved. One will be welcomed by a suffering public glad to be put into the shackles of slavery...the other, will wipe out entire populations preceeded by excruciating suffering...shackles or no.

So which do we prefer?

I think however, we shall be getting both of them. One as a solution to to the other.

It's all over now but the wailing.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

Thanks for the link Diane...you gopher you. This goes directly to the section under Martial Law:

http://www.gunowners.org/prespower.htm

Haven't digested it yet, just scanned it. Very informative indeed. Amazing how easy it is to take freedom away under various guises.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

Sorry 'bout that. Let's try that one again shall we? It's here in case I befuddle this attempt: http://www.gunowners.org/ prespower.htm

http:// www.gunowners.org/prespower.htm

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

INVAR & Others

We need to stop arguing about who got us into this mess, and be Unitedcitizens working together to muddle our way through this mess.

United we stand, divided we fall.

The survival of our Republic is far more important than 'who killed who'.

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

I heard an interesting (true) story about missionaries in China. Several Pastors of different denominations were imprisioned together. The Chinese officials really didn't care if they were Catholic or Protestant, they were Christians.

It turns out that while in prison together their differences meant nothing. They prayed together & shared whatever memorized verses they could.

My point is that if the day ever comes that we do need to fear the tanks in our streets (which I am not really sure has arrived) it won't really matter who we voted for. What will matter is citizens being united. We have more power as a people than we even imagine, but we allow ouselves to become divided over every issue imaginable, from race to abortion to enviro political issues etc.

This polarization is IMHO is far more dangerous than ten Clintons or whoever we percieve our political enemies to be.

One of my fears is that the enemy is ourselves.

Diane,

Sorry for veering so far OT. Thanks for posting your 'find'. Yesterday it left me speechless. Today I will search for any tid bits I can dig up. Thanks again to all contributors to this post.

Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long & hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival.

-- Winston Churchill May 13, 1940

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

See also...

O.T Pilots quit over Anthrax shots

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0018wZ

Or...

http:// www.cbs.com/flat/story_171532.html

Pilots Quit Over Anthrax Shots
Military Flyers Fear Reaction Caused By Vaccine
Key Units May Lose Up To Half Their Pilots
Pentagon: Vaccine Is Safe
LOS ANGELES

Monday, July 26,1999 - 08:19 PM ET

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Deborah,

No problem. I was in shock yesterday too.

INVAR and "a"

I'd tend to agree. While the discourse is "interesting" frankly President Clinton et. al. IS and WILL BE in "charge" during Y2K.

Done deal. So arguing about whether or not "it should be so," is pointless, IMHO. Just keep the eyes wide open and connect the dots.

Figuring out how communities and individuals can quit being bi- partisian, and can instead come together for a Y2K "common cause" seems more on topic to me.

A mid-point is the only nexus that works. (It's also transparent).

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

BTW,

I havent read these yet but... over at the GAO there are some reports...

GAO: Recent Reports (Arranged by Title)

http:// www.gao.gov/new.items/newtitle.htm

PDF files...

Combating Terrorism: Analysis of Federal Counterterrorist Exercises. NSIAD-99-157BR. 60 pp. June 25, 1999.

http:// www.gao.gov/new.items/ns99157b.pdf

Combating Terrorism: Analysis of Potential Emergency Response Equipment and Sustainment Costs. NSIAD-99-151. 9 pp. plus 6 appendices (15 pp.) June 9, 1999.

http://www.gao.gov/ new.items/ns99151.pdf

Combating Terrorism: Issues to Be Resolved to Improve Counterterrorism Operations. NSIAD-99-135. 28 pp. May 13, 1999.

http://www.gao.gov/ new.items/ns99135.pdf

Combating Terrorism: Observations on Growth in Federal Programs. T- NSIAD-99-181. 19 pp. plus 1 appendix (2 pp.) June 9, 1999.

http:// www.gao.gov/new.items/ns99181t.pdf

Combating Terrorism: Use of National Guard Response Teams Is Unclear. NSIAD-99-110. 27 pp. plus 4 appendices (21 pp.) May 21, 1999.

http://www.gao.gov/ new.items/ns99110.pdf

Combating Terrorism: Use of National Guard Response Teams Is Unclear. T-NSIAD-99-184. 13 pp. June 23, 1999.

http:// www.gao.gov/new.items/ns99184t.pdf

And dont forget the GAO Y2K reports...

Year 2000 Computing Crisis
GAO Reports and other GAO Publications

http://www.gao.gov/y2kr.htm

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Diane dear,

Wasn't arguing over whether Clinton "should" or "should not be" Prez during the rollover. Of course his Administration will be running the show...thiat's why we NEED to keep our eyes open. Tyranny always rushes in during times of upheaval.

I was pre-emptively pointing out where the responsibility for the frightening revelations in Cohen's piece lie, and how we got there. I fear too many targets will be painted on the wrong folks for simple political expediency.

Deborah,

Will respectfully disagree with some of your points which I did take to heart, but understanding how and why we're in this present situation is instructive to how divided we already are. No amount of pleading or platitudes by anyone will change the reality of how folks are going to react to things when they erupt.

"United we stand, divided we fall."

Yes. But we are already divided, and have been slowly pulled apart for the last 35 years.

"The survival of our Republic is far more important than 'who killed who'."

Do we "have" a Republic anymore Deborah? With all the town meetings and poll news, we are closer to pure democracy (mob rule) than was ever intended by the founders. And as a point, if this republic no longer resembles the nation we once were, and turns into the Socialist State I fear it turning into, who cares if it survives? Freedom is lost.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Granted. This is exactly WHY when hard times come a knockin', we are gonna go bezerk. You saw the rioting at Woodstock '99. Times now are good Deborah, what do you think they are going to do when times get tough? Do you think talking about it will solve the divisions? And aside from Satan, who do you think has faccillitated the divisions among us? Hint: who coined the modern political use of "extremist"?

And yes Deborah, we are divided over many political issues, precisely because we as a nation have turned from God and have determined for ourslves what is right and wrong, and moral and unjust. We are divided for political expediency, for power and control. Divided and conquered by those whose careers are the power of public service.

Polarization as you put it, is dangerous when the populace is divided. I will point out that this nation was forged under political argument and debate. But the goal was the common-good under the Law of God, not the laws of man. Today the law of the individual and HIS RIGHTS are more important than everyone else's rights.

I know where you're coming from Deborah, and you're fundamentally right. The problem is that we are far past the time for talk and persuasion. The fruits of the last 2 generations will be sown in the fires of tribulation soon upon us. If you look at those fruits Deborah, they are rooted in complacent selfishness...the handwriting is on the wall.

Ther is no solution except we turn back to our Creator in repentance and change...and I'm afraid it's too late for that.

"One of my fears is that the enemy is ourselves. "

Absolutely the most profound, truthful and accurate statement on this entire board.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

http://reagan.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike/document-11.3.1998.1.html

US Martial Law Coming? Cohen Predicts Army Will Patrol Streets Army Times "Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection," says Defense Secretary William S. Cohen The nation's defense chief told the Army Times he once considered the chilling specter of armored vehicles surrounding civilian hotels or government buildings to block out terrorists as strictly an overseas phenomenon. But no longer. (snip)

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Cohen's piece is REALLY Alarming! Bet 99% of population will never read or hear about it. But everybody will be stuck with the effects. Smallpox vac was only good for 10 years? Anthrax vac may not be safe? Potassium Iodide not available and nuclear plant meltdowns/war are "at the brink?"

He said "religious zealots ... brooding loners and self-proclaimed apocalyptic prophets ..." More invective swipes at those actually concerned about *HIS* apocalyptic essay.

The Powers That Be are positioning themselves for more than the usual hypocritical manipulation and turf/funding grabs.
THIS IS BEYOND BAD NEWS and conditioning the masses to psychologically accept drastic curtailment of 'normal' life.

This is a real warning that TEOTWAWKI will in fact hit us!

Anybody who is not scared and preparing is brain dead.

-- alarmed (cohen@adrenaline.shoot), July 27, 1999.

INVAR,

My heart weeps in agreement with you. I, like you have been given eyes to see.

I believe that you too are fundamentally right.

I have yet to give up hope for mercy.

I don't believe it's ever too late. I have not forgotten the million men on their knees in Washington D.C. & neither has God.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Well Deborah and Diane you've cracked the crystal ball.

-- wondering no more (hopes@shattered.Y2Knacht), July 27, 1999.

alarmed,

That is exactly what I thought.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Agreed Deborah.

I just think the army of men on their knees before God needs to be around 60 million...not just one IMHO...and I know God is no respecter of persons, but I think as a nation so blessed, we have an obligation to do so.

Pray that somehow that happens BEFORE TSHTF, not while we're wallowing in it.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

Thanks Deborah,

Was trying to find the Army Times stuff. Your link...

US Defense Secretay Predicts Army Will Patrol US Streets

US Martial Law Coming? Cohen
Predicts Army Will Patrol Streets

http://reagan.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike/document- 11.3.1998.1.html

[Fair Use: For Educational/Research Purposes Only]

Army Times

"Terrorism is escalating to the point that Americans soon may have to choose between civil liberties and more intrusive means of protection," says Defense Secretary William S. Cohen

The nation's defense chief told the Army Times he once considered the chilling specter of armored vehicles surrounding civilian hotels or government buildings to block out terrorists as strictly an overseas phenomenon.

But no longer.

"It could happen here," Cohen said he concluded after 8 months of studying threats under the Pentagon microscope. Free-lance terrorists with access to deadly chemical and biological bombs are "going to change the way in which the American people view security in our own country," he predicted in a Sept 10 interview.

Cohen is calling for the government to step up its efforts to penetrate wildcard terrorist organizations. "It's going to require greater intelligence on our part -- much greater emphasis on intelligence gathering capability - more human intelligence, and it's going to take more technical intelligence," he said.

But using the U.S. military in a domestic law enforcement role would require revisions to laws in force for more than a century, cautions Shreveport attorney John Odom, Jr. "You can't do it from the Defense Department side unless Congress dramatically revises the Posse Comitatus laws." said Odom, a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve and a reserve Judge Advocate.

"The 1878 law specifically prohibits the use of the military in domestic law enforcement unless authorized by Congress or the Constitution and does not wllow for military intervention through action by the Secretary of Defense of even an Executive Order from the President," Odom said. We're trained from the first day of Judge Advocate school to think of Posse Comitatus !!! said Odom. "If Secretary Cohen is suggesting that the Department of Defense be involved, it may be part of a legislative package, but it will not happen unilaterally without a lot of folks thinking long and hard about it."

Cohen said terrorism would be a top priority in 5 new areas he plans to focus on now that he has wrapped up his first defense budget, the quadrennial review of the military and a new 4-year defense strategy. Other goals include modernizing the military, improving troops housing and other benefits, streamlining the defense bureaucracy and shaping new military relationships and contracts across the globe.

See also...

Army Times (search under Military information at your fingertips)

http://www.armytimes.com/

(You can see summaries of the full-text documents but need to be a subscriber to access).

Weekly News Reports

http:// www.armytimes.com/news/news.html

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

And dont forget this link...

Midnight Crossing: Calling all "Big Brain" Y2k Debunkers: Debunk this!
FROM THE JULY, 1999 ISSUE OF AIR FORCE MAGAZINE:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0013HA

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Thanks Diane,

I thought this snippet was interesting....Cohen said in a recent speech that the military is treating y2k like a war, keep that in mind while reading this Kosovo piece...humor me.

http://www.conservativenet.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike /document-3.30.1999.6.html

Albright and Defense Secretary William S. Cohen, who blitzed the networks Thursday, are doing more than pressing the administration's line in time of war. They are demonizing the opposition and carefully controlling the flow of information as part of the all-important battle for public opinion. And they are doing so in a relative news vacuum created by the Serbian expulsion of most Western journalists and the lack of television pictures from the Balkans war zone.

(snip) "It's been effective in the short term," said Marlin Fitzwater, the Bush White House spokesman during the Persian Gulf War. "The problem is they didn't start the communications until the bombs started falling. That's not enough time to convince the nation of a course of action. But it's helpful because it convinces people to give the government the benefit of the doubt."

(snip) War is "easier for people to understand if there's a face to the enemy," Fitzwater added, invoking such leaders as "Hitler, Ho Chi Minh, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic."

(snip) Tensions between the media and the military have flared periodically since the Gulf War. Smith, the retired general, said military officials feel "a mistrust and a distrust" toward journalists, some of whom they regard as "clueless."

(snip)

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Okay Diane, you've sufficiently scared the crap out of all of us with your excellent news collating skills for the last two days.

How 'bout something on the lighter side, say sewage spills or a chemical plant leak?

Or for a breather, how's about articulating canning esspresso or bottling Mocha Lattes?

Something I know we will definitely be needing by March.

If not, will Tequilla suffice?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

LOL, INVAR.

Yes... it IS latte time.

;-D

What's really "funny" is I just occasionally pop around to the USIA site to see what's up, and I'm usually looking for just the Y2K stuff.

My intuitive sense was pushing me to "check it out" and that Cohen headline just sort'a lit up and popped off the page.

*Sigh*

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

Deborah,

If you haven't already, go study the Rendon Group web-site. It may "explain" your concerns.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 27, 1999.

BTW, SySops- Seen any of these IP addresses around?

Issue Dynamics Inc (IDI2-DOM) 919 18th Street, NW 10th Floor Washington, DC 20006 US

Domain Name: IDI.NET

Domain servers in listed order:

NS1.ABS.NET 207.114.0.130

NS2.ABS.NET 207.114.0.140

NS2.DN.NET 206.197.81.10

NS3.DN.NET 206.197.81.11

NS.DIGEX.NET 164.109.1.3

Or now that I think about it:

(The) Rendon Group, Inc. (RENDON-DOM) 1875 Connecticut Avenue NW, Suite 414 Admin Dept. Washington, DC 20009 US

Domain Name: RENDON.COM

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.PSI.NET 192.33.4.10

NS2.PSI.NET 38.8.50.2

I'm not sure I really want to know...

-- anonymoose (wellwh@dya.know), July 27, 1999.

INVAR, I have a question.

Is everyone in the government sinister and evil? Are there any government agents or employees that have noble motives and good intent? How can you tell the difference and be so sure? What percent fall into the sinister category and what percent in the benign?

And another, if I may:

How would you have prevented the current situation, ie threat of biological terrorism, from arising if you had been the president of the US? If you could not have prevented it, what steps would you be taking now to combat it?

-- a (a@a.a), July 27, 1999.

--a,

as this thread is about worn-out...I'll start a new thread with your very excellent questions and we can debate the Geopolitical Canvas Y2K will be painted on....

...See you at the top.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 27, 1999.

Some csy2k responses, Re: ** Cohen, Sec of Defense, Turns Mega-Doomer **

>Those behind the 1993 World Trade Center bombing were also gathering the ingredients for a chemical weapon that could have killed thousands.

Actually, the WTC bomb was *supposed* to be a chemical weapon. If it had burned instead of exploded, thousands would have been killed.

-- Hopeful

--------------------------------------------
So if preparedness at home is so important, why the hell did they slap an executive order to ban the importation of gas masks and NBC protective clothing to prevent civilians from purchasing it on the surplus market in the USA ??

Me thinks thou does protest too much Mr. Cohen...

-- Wu Li Grandmaster

--------------------------------------------
First of all, the Secretary is setting up for a military takeover, in the name of "we're here to help you".

Then he is setting up for a massive invasion of everyone's privacy in the name of getting ready ...

I think many are already afraid of our government; and I would guess that many more simply don't trust it.

Everything in this piece is just a big apologist argument for take over of whatever Constitutional rights that haven't already gone down the drain.

-- starrin

--------------------------------------------
Wu Li - EO's banning the importation of gas masks and NBC protective clothing are aimed at increasing the power of the government. By requiring private citizens to obtain protection from the government by prohibiting, or at least making it extreamly difficult, the private citizen from obtaining its own protection from non-governmental sources, the government increases the private citizen's "need" for the government, thereby increasing the government's power (with a similar decrease in the power of the private citizen).

The government spin, of course, is to prevent the "bad guys" from obtaining protective devices or clothing, thereby decreasing the ability of the "bad guys" to causing harm.by making them vulnerable to the harm they would impose on others.

Regards, Paul Thomas Ivy

--------------------------------------------
xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), July 27, 1999.

BOTTOM LINE Whew!! After two boxes of paper and 3 print catridges, I got this thread printed out so I can reread it tonight. But....I have one comment to make and it is not a fore or an against a.. or Invar. But.... if you were told that the town down the road had small pox discovered in it, would you not be hoping that SOMEONE/AGENCY would quarantine it??? And if you found out that YOUR town had an outbreak of small pox, would you not try and escape it by leaving the area? Even if it meant running or circumventing road blocks?? Its a catch 22. On one hand you will lose rights...on the other you lose life. I think you will choose the latter.

Taz

-- Taz (Tassie@aol.com), July 28, 1999.

BTW, in case anybody is interested, I haven't seen this posted here yet. The original article, on the Washington post site:

http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-07/26/014l-072699 -idx.html

Jon

-- Jon Hylands (jon@huv.com), July 29, 1999.