O T. John F Kennedy's plane was downed by a bomb which explains why it decended at 5000 feet per minute per several articles at

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

http://www.sightings.com . www.sightings.com . He was planning to run for President in 2000 and it was feared that he would win. There were reports of a flash at the time of the crash which were soon withdrawn from the news. The flash even showed up in satelite photos. More lies, coverups, conspiracies. Where will it end? The powers that be are controlling the events. Are they controlling Y2k too or did it get away from them? If the top one per cent controls one half of the wealth, they also stand to incur a big proportion of the losses but should have the resources to buy up what they do not have at bargain prices. The articles also discuss the source of the Kennedy fortune, how Teddy was set up and blamed for the Mary Jo K disaster where his car fell off the bridge and the odd timing of these events which happen on the anniversary dates of previous events. Incredible. They put out the spin that he was considering running for Senator from New York until the from Arkansaw decided to run. It gets interestinger and interestinger.

-- Ray (Ray@bbb.cry), July 25, 1999


An interesting theory, but there was no need for a bomb. JK was a low hour private pilot with one foot in a cast. He was flying VFR over water at night with poor visibility. The miricle is that he even got as far as he did before establishing a death spiral.

For a description of just what was the likely scenario try: http://lights.chtm.unm.edu/~sarangan/aviation/favourites/178.html


-- Malcolm Taylor (taylorm@es.co.nz), July 25, 1999.

Bullshit. Pure bullshit. He screwed up. That's all.

-- shy ann (shy@reallyshy.com), July 25, 1999.

Moral: Don't even think of competing with the old battle ax backing the Communist in Thief.

-- instant conspiracy (ripe@strange.dates), July 25, 1999.

While I don't usually believe in conspiricy scenarios I did find it VERY strange that he was creamated and buried at sea so quickly after the body was recovered.


-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), July 25, 1999.


My cat had kittens yesterday. We didn't know until today, she had kept them out of sight. Y2k related? I think so, and I think the govt. forced her to keep the secret. I agree with you, the govt will go to any....WAIT!... my hair is growing!.....and my phone is ringing!....don't you SEE the conection?

Please, it's hard enough to keep talks about y2k and the preps needed to survive it on solid ground. How many forest will you cut down before you find out that there is not a demon behind every tree?

-- sigmund (wayout@there.com), July 25, 1999.

They got rid of THAT evidence FAST!

-- Injun Joe (InjunJoe@the.cave), July 25, 1999.

JFK's first coffin was thrown into the sea secretly. Did you know that?

-- another "coincidence" (planes@cars.ashes), July 25, 1999.


JFK's PLANE Says Skolnick By Sherman Skolnick 7-25-99

NOTE - Sherman Skolnick will be Jeff's Guest at 8 pm Pacific tonight

What Happened to America's Golden Boy - Pt 4


1. No declassification until 7/22/2029.

2. This is in deference to the wishes of a senior member of the Kennedy family.

3. Also in deference to the order of the national government and in respect to certain foreign intelligence agencies having reciprocal agreements with the U.S.

4. POTUS order and national security findings attached.

5. The recovered aircraft shows evidence of an explosive device having been glued or affixed within the tail luggage compartment.

6. Device was apparently actuated by a barometric trigger. Radio signals not ruled out.

7. Tail of aircraft was dismembered from the plane making it front heavy.

8. Study of radar shows the plane fell in excess of 6,000 feet per minute up to radar cutoff.

9. Satellite images supplied by the National Reconnaissance Office record an outbursting flash from the aircraft just prior to it going into perpendicular descent.

10. Tail structure was dismembered just prior to descent.

11. Recovery of a piece of luggage from beyond the flight path of the aircraft correlates with it being hurtled out of the tail luggage compartment at outburst.

12. Preliminary examination of the aircraft shows residue of an explosive device the Laboratory identifies as being the type used by certain foreign intelligence agencies. Refer to POTUS order and findings.

13. Study of Air Traffic Control and other radio signals shows no Mayday report from the aircraft, explained by rapidity of descent.

14. Investigation and examination has been strictly compartmentalized.

15. A short, perfunctory examination of the recovered bodies was completed. Examination revealed that Carolyn Bessette Kennedy was in third trimester pregnant, the fetus a boy. The four bodies were transferred to a senior member of the Kennedy family. The Bureau was not informed whether the bodies were actually cremated. Indirect advisories report that the bodies may have been shipped in untagged containers to foreign destinations. Reliable assets are to submit reports.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

Kennedy Possibly Given Wrong Info

Sunday, 25 July 1999 21:43 (GMT), (UPI Focus)

NEW YORK, July 25 (UPI) - Federal investigators are reportedly looking into the possibility that John F. Kennedy Jr. may have had erroneous weather information from the Federal Aviation Administration and the Weather Bureau before he started his fatal flight.

According to Newsweek, pilots calling for an official weather briefing that day were told the visibility at Kennedy's destination was over eight miles, adequate for a pilot flying by visual flight rules.

However, the magazine reports Dr. Bob Arnot, an NBC News medical correspondent on his way to his vacation home on Nantucket, and who flew his private plane over roughly the same route as Kennedy's only 15 minutes earlier, says conditions were different.

Arnot says he could see no land, lights, or horizon as he was flying by Martha's Vineyard. "When I went through that corridor, I couldn't see anything at all. It was murky black," he tells Newsweek.

Unnamed sources tell Newsweek investigators are trying to find out if Kennedy called for such a briefing before he took off from Fairfield, N. J.

Pilots routinely use an 800 number to check with FAA weather briefs before flying.

FAA ? the always truthful FAA, base your life on them?

-- someone to blame (point@finger.somewhere), July 26, 1999.

links worth a quick perusal


liked the comments about visibility being "excellent" at the destination, also the mystery of the missing flight instructor...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

Rush was right--the conspiracy theory's would be coming out of the wood work right after the funeral! John John will go down in history as someone who killed his wife and sister. He lacked experience, judgement, and his physical ability to fly an airplane that he had only piloted one time. I wonder if they tested him for drugs during the autopsy? And, will the autopsy be made public?

-- noconspiracyatall (noconspiracyatall@noconspr.com), July 26, 1999.

Actually, Tech32, I would imagine that the bodies were cremated pretty quickly because of the lobsters & crabs. Imagine what they'd do in a week?



-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), July 26, 1999.


Actually, Tech32, I would imagine that the bodies were cremated pretty quickly because of the lobsters & crabs. Imagine what they'd do in a week?

Yech. I'm not defending the bomb theory here, I have no idea what happened, but people can still be put in a box in the ground. Bodies are dug up and reburied all the time after much decomposition (autopsies, unknown grave sites, Kosovo, etc).

Without a body they can NEVER dig it up and see if the arms were ripped from the body, if they were badly burned, etc. Anything that could prove they died in a bomb blast, has been (according to the press) burned and cast to the seas.

I'm no Kennedy Family expert, but can anyone tell me if ANY other member has been creamated and buried at sea? If it was a family tradition, I might be willing to lean in that direction. But if it turns out that he's unique, well, then let's just say I'll keep an open mind....


-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), July 26, 1999.

Anybody pass grade school math here? 5000 feet per minute is about a mile a minute, which is 60 miles per hour. Duh.

-- A (A@AisA.com), July 26, 1999.


he glided down from 6,000 feet and then went into terminal velocity over the last few hundred, would that fly for you...?

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

Andy welcome back,
but I don't get your question.
Terminal velocity would be more than 60 mph.

If, as I have heard some pilots speculate, that he was disoriented and drove it into the ocean, he could have hit at 180 mph or whatever cruising speed is.

Assuming 60 mph descent rate and 180 mph crusing speed, that means a horizontal speed of hs = sqr(180^2 - 60^2) = 170 mph.

Angle of descent (crash angle) ad = invsin( 60/180) = 20 degrees

-- A (A@AisA.com), July 26, 1999.

Sorry, I was being facetious... :(

If, as I have heard some pilots speculate, that he was disoriented and drove it into the ocean, he could have hit at 180 mph or whatever cruising speed is.

####### Yes I get what you're saying, but if a bomb blew out the rear fuselage then I'm guessing the plane would drop like a stone, in a parabola, wind pressure constantly slowing the forward movement of the aircraft, terminal velocity reached at or around impact, maybe no forward movement at this point. By the way I believe he was assasinated, too too many things do not add up at all here - Skolnick is on the money... #######

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.


Sweetie says JFKJr was flying a plane that was quite a bit faster than he was used to. He didn't file a flight plan or notify any airport of his ETA (even though not required, it's a very basic safety procedure and is hammered into you in any flight training). When he was in flight school Sweetie and his class had to read tons of fatal aviation accident reports as part of their Navy training--the details of JFKJr's accident, as they came out one by one, matched just about exactly those cases of inexperienced pilots becoming disoriented and flying their planes smack into the sea (or ground) at night.

I suspect the bodies were cremated for purely emotional reasons, to thwart any future move to dig them up and check them out, nothing to do with a conspiracy. That family's had enough of conspiracy theories. This would have been a joint decision of Caroline Kennedy (John's next-of-kin) and the Bessett family, nobody else. Maybe they were afraid of some sort of minor Diana-type shrine too. Or maybe the victims had expressed a wish to be disposed of thus. I know I want to be cremated and scattered somewhere, doesn't much matter, I won't care by then. So if I snuff it and they barbecue me and flush me down the toilet, don't suspect foul play!

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), July 26, 1999.

Old Git,

re-read Skolnicks four pieces on this link


Too many things don't add up here, conflicting reports on the visibility that night (some say excellent (over 8 miles), some say nil), conflicting reports on his flying ability ("only" 46 hours whereas his examiner said he passed everything with flying colours and almost had enough hours logged to be a commercial pilot), the flying instructor, evidence of eye-witnesses seing a bright flash in the sky (just as did witnesses of the TWA 800 flight), conflicting reports whether he made contact on aproach with ATC, the extremely hurried post mortems (not enough time to do three thorough ones), the very fast cremation (no exhumations *here*), etc. etc.

JJ was apparently going to announce he would run for President this fall.

Think about it.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

You can hear Skolnick on realaudio from last night's Jeff Rense show on this link


-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

More "inconsistencies" (OK media lies)


-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

-- noconspiracyatall (noconspiracyatall@noconspr.com), July 26, 1999.

If I just say it a few more times....

Sure looks like this story could go either way. Can't you keep your mind open for TWO possibilities until something turns up?

Gotta admit, fast cremation is a bad idea for conspiracy-theory suppression.

Of course, the question is: For how long? Some of us have been going "Oswald. No. Grassy knoll. No. Book Depository. No. Mechanics team. No. Lone kook. No. Covert op." for a few years now.

Me -- I don't spend much time with it. A night on the Net once a year or so to catch up. Just background noise to life in a strange- enough world anyway. Pulp fiction that ain't quite fictional enough. (You can't turn to the end and see what really happened.)

-- news (th@you.can.use), July 26, 1999.

G'morning Andy. Now, off to that radio show!

-- news (th@you.can.use), July 26, 1999.

He was a Kennedy. He was drunk, coked up and screwin' around with the two sister's when....Oop's who's flyin' the plane.

Just bad humor on my part.

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), July 26, 1999.

Andy you are a raving lunatic.

Months ago I suggested that you seek help, I fear that your current mental state makes that advice ever more vital.

Go find a professional, one who can prescribe the drugs you so desperately need.


-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

Coming from you Unc, I take that as a compliment :) Keep an open mind pal, truth is stranger than fiction, or hadn't you noticed? And as for drugs, I have no need of them when Guinness is still on tap...


2 assassinations, why not 3 for luck?

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

I'm sure this is true! After all, Skolnick is the same genius who deduced that the USS Gonzales had been sunk because (1) it's web page was down; and (2) no e-mail had been received from the ship. Yep, I would believe anything this guy says!!

-- Do You See (how.stupid@you.look), July 26, 1999.

l. Too much plane, not enuff pilot 2. Radar showed he was turning final and RAISED the nose. One has to put the nose down to maintain air speed. More powerful the plane, the steeper the decent. 3. "Had almost enuff hours for commercial pilots license". If you think that qualifies him for airlines, forget it. Commercial pilot is nothing. 4. He was flying VFR...meaning he had no business over water nor flying at night. 5.When he pulled the nose up, he put it into a stall and had not the experience to bring it out. Ever been in a stall with your eyes rolled back in your head and your brain pasted against the side of your skull? You don't call for a mayday!!

Taz...with 3400 hours and ATR under her belt.

-- Taz (Tassie@aol.com), July 26, 1999.

... this flight instructor situation has me a bit *curious*. So I did a search for +Kennedy and +instructor on the Reuters/UPI stories. In case you are interested, here is what I found : -------

Saturday July 17 8:41 AM ET John Kennedy Jr. Plane Is Missing -Reports

Kennedy was on the private plane with AT LEAST THREE FRIENDS on his way to a wedding in Massachusetts, television broadcaster MSNBC and CBS radio reported.

[who was the source for these reports? Not likely reporters from 2 networks just made up the numbers]

MSNBC reported that the Coast Guard had picked up a signal from an airplane beacon off the eastern tip of Long Island along Kennedy's presumed flight path between New Jersey and the Massachusetts island of Martha's Vineyard.

The reports said Kennedy took off from an airfield in New Jersey Friday night. Coast Guard officials were not immediately available for comment. -------------

Saturday July 17 1:54 PM ET Plane Carrying John Kennedy Jr. Is Missing

Believed to be on the missing plane were Kennedy, his wife Carolyn and her older sister Lauren, authorities said.

Reports conflicted over whether a fourth person, a flight instructor, was on board.

A Coast Guard spokesman in Woods Hole, Mass., said an instructor was present, but Conley, coordinating the search from the Langley air base, said an instructor was not believed to be on the plane.

A family spokesman, Brian O'Connor, told local radio in Cape Cod that as far as the family knew, three people were aboard the plane -- Kennedy, his wife and her sister.

[now shouldn't it be easy to find out who the instructor was and find out if he is missing or not?] ------------------------

Saturday July 17 11:30 AM ET Plane Believed To Carry Young Kennedy Is Missing

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A single-engine plane which media reports said was carrying John F. Kennedy Jr., son of the assassinated U.S. president, has gone missing off the New York coast on its way to Massachusetts, Air Force and Coast Guard spokesmen said Saturday.

The Coast Guard picked up a signal from an airplane beacon in the water near the eastern tip of New York's Long Island along the small plane's presumed flight path, the spokesmen said.

The beacon emits an audio signal which can mean the plane has crashed, although the beacon can be turned on manually or can go off inadvertently, spokesmen said.

The plane left an airfield in Fairfield, New Jersey, Friday night at 8:38 p.m. (1238 GMT Saturday), said the spokesmen. They could not confirm that Kennedy was on board.

Television and radio reports said the Piper plane, with Kennedy, his wife AND TWO OTHER PEOPLE on board, was due to land on the Massachusetts island of Martha's Vineyard on its way to Cape Cod. [CAPS added]

The weather was hot and very hazy in the area at the time the plane went missing, witnesses said.

``Once the sun had gone down it was hazy black. You really couldn't make out what was up and what was down,'' said pilot Bob Arnot, who flew a similar route as Kennedy at about the same time Friday night.

On the plane were Kennedy, his wife, her sister Lauren and a flight instructor, television broadcaster MSNBC said.

Kennedy gained his pilot's license a year ago and took the instructor because he injured his foot in a paragliding accident a few weeks ago, MSNBC said.

He was flying with a cast on his foot, it said.

Kennedy lives in New York and is an editor at George magazine. -------------------

Saturday July 17 10:05 AM EDT John F. Kennedy Jr.'s Plane Reported Missing

A small, private plane believed to be piloted by celebrity scion and magazine editor John F. Kennedy Jr. has been reported missing, with a search underway today off the waters of New York's Long Island, reports said.

The aircraft was said to be carrying Kennedy, 39, his wife, Carolyn Bessette, and, according to the Fox News Channel, her sister. Other reports said yet a fourth person was on board. Those reports also say the fourth person possibly was a flight instructor and that that individual, not Kennedy, was behind the controls.

[so here, the fourth person is missing and presumed on board.. but still no name!!]

The plane took off from Caldwell, New Jersey, at about 8:45 p.m. (EST) Friday, en route for the tony climes of Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts. But it never arrived. It was reported missing at about midnight Saturday. -----------------------

Sunday July 18, 4:57 pm Eastern Time Toronto businessman says Kennedy needed co-pilot

TORONTO, July 18 (Reuters) - John F. Kennedy Jr., feared dead after his plane crashed off the coast of Martha's Vineyard on Friday, did not feel comfortable flying without a co-pilot as recently as last Monday because of his broken foot, a businessman who met with him last week said on Sunday.

Kennedy, 38, flew into Markham, Ontario-based Buttonville Airport, close to Toronto, last Monday, said Keith Stein, who was trying to assemble a syndicate interested in buying a half-share in Kennedy's George magazine.

``He flew with a co-pilot on this occasion because ... he told me that with his broken foot, he had trouble with the pedals,'' Stein said in a telephone interview.

Stein collected Kennedy from his Piper plane and met the co-pilot, who he said was a flight instructor from Martha's Vineyard. He then drove Kennedy away in his car -- crutches tossed in the back -- for discussions and a lunch meeting.

[so Stein met him.. but we are given NO NAME]

Kennedy was unable to bear any weight on his foot and was not wearing a shoe, said Stein, executive assistant to Frank Stronach, the chairman of Canadian auto parts manufacturer Magna International Inc.

He said he had a photograph taken that day that showed Kennedy very obviously favoring the foot. Kennedy, 38, broke his foot in a paragliding accident recently. ----------

Sunday July 18, 6:14 pm Eastern Time Pilots stop short of calling Kennedy reckless

WASHINGTON, July 18 (Reuters) - Pilots and flight instructors said on Sunday that John F. Kennedy Jr.'s fateful decision to fly to Martha's Vineyard was not necessarily reckless but the odds were stacked against the novice pilot.

Flying over the water at night was mentioned as particularly difficult by the three pilots and three instructors interviewed by Reuters.

While most stressed it was too early to determine a cause of the crash, many cited Kennedy's limited flight time as a handicap no matter what problem may have arisen.

``Low flight time, night time. Everything was stacked against him,'' said Ernie Carnahan, an instructor with Tradewinds International Flight School in Ft. Pierce, Florida. [The reporters DID want to talk to a flight instructor, but instead of quoting Kennedy's instructor, they dig up this guy from Florida. Why? This same quote and another sentence or two from the same guy appeared in several stories.]

In fact, as recently as July 12, Kennedy did not feel comfortable flying without a co-pilot, said Toronto businessman Keith Stein, who was trying to assemble a syndicate interested in buying a half-share of Kennedy's George magazine.

``He flew with a co-pilot on this occasion because ... he told me that with his broken foot, he had trouble with the pedals,'' Stein said in a telephone interview.

Kennedy was unable to bear any weight on his foot and was not wearing a shoe, said Stein. Kennedy broke his foot in a paragliding accident.

Experts failed to agree on whether the turbo-charged six-seat Piper Saratoga was a suitable plane for someone with Kennedy's limited experience.

``It's a faster plane than he trained on. If something gets out of hand it can get out of hand much quicker,'' said Dan Rau, an instructor at Aviation Atlanta flight school.

``I think it was a little bit premature for someone with his experience to fly something that complicated,'' said Carnahan. ----------

Monday July 19 12:39 AM ET JFK Jr Probably Did Not Survive Crash - Coast Guard

``Low flight time, night time. Everything was stacked against him,'' said Ernie Carnahan, an instructor with Tradewinds International Flight School in Fort Pierce, Florida, summing up the feelings of many veteran pilots. ----------

Monday July 19 1:30 AM ET JFK Jr., Wife, Sister-In-Law Presumed Dead

``Low flight time, night time. Everything was stacked against him,'' said Ernie Carnahan, an instructor with Tradewinds International Flight School in Fort Pierce, Florida, summing up the feelings of many veteran pilots.

Monday July 19 6:10 AM ET Delay Placed JFK Jr. at Risk

The pilot who sold Kennedy the Piper Saratoga said he also thought conditions were bad. Hussain Munir said he had returned to Fairfield, N.J., from Martha's Vineyard about two hours before Kennedy departed.

``When I came back to the hangar and saw his plane, I knew he was taking it out,'' said Munir, of Hasbrouck Heights, N.J. ``I didn't think anything of it because I figured he was going with his flight instructor. He seldom flew without his instructor.'' [no name given for the flight instructor] -----------------

Tuesday July 20 3:19 AM ET Cause for Kennedy Crash Sought

``This wouldn't be the first time a pilot has lost control of a plane because of spatial disorientation or vertigo,'' said Larry Gross, an aviation professor at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind. He also is a certified flight instructor with over 12,000 flight hours.

Vas Patterson, a flight instructor at the ATC Flight Training Center in Fort Washington, Md., just south of Washington, said such disorientation may have put Kennedy ``behind'' his relatively fast Piper Saratoga.

``The airplane he was flying was a high-performance, complex airplane,'' said Patterson, who has logged 900 flight hours. ``It was a step up from what he was used to.'' [ here reporters talked to 2 instructors.. but no mention of who Kennedy's instructor was.] ------------

Tuesday July 20 6:09 AM ET JFK Jr. Said To Have Expressed Fear

Also Monday, a flight instructor at the airport where Kennedy kept his Piper Saratoga said the rookie pilot wasn't reckless, and would often leave the airport without flying if he thought the weather was bad.

``He was not a risk-taker,'' said Ed Gacio, an instructor at the Essex County Airport. He did not teach Kennedy to fly, but said he knew him from the airport and frequently spoke with him. [again.. shows the reporters were nosing around, looking for a flight istructor... where is Kennedy's instructor?] --------------

Wednesday July 21 2:28 PM ET Searchers Find JFK Jr. Body, Family Heads To Site

``We call that a graveyard spiral,'' said Ernie Carnahan, a flight instructor of 18 years experience from Ft. Pierce, Florida. -----

Just speculation, but is anyone curious about the fact that Kennedy just bought this plane in April.. from a man named Hussain Munir.. who may have been the last person to see him alive.. and Kennedy was working on an article about a possible comspiracy surrounding the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Link

And did he or did he not have a cast on?

And where oh where is the flight instructor.. alive or dead?

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), July 26, 1999.


You must be psychic knowing JUST how it crashed :)

Perhaps you could explain to us all how TWA 800 went down too...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.


Excellent sleuthing, you realise now that you have gone up in the world as far as Uncle DeeDah is concerned - welcome to the monster raving looney club!

Still, the whole think STINKS.

Hey, y'all believe the minstream media - you all know JUST how much credence they are giving y2k too doncha...


Pass me the pills Mabel.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

Story coming out today says that JFK Jr. was conducting a Y2k test on the plane at the time of the incident. While moving the clocks in his plane foward one of those pesky embedded chips failed and locked up all the controlls on the aircraft. Be ware and be very afraid.

-- Smells fishy (get a life@reallity.com), July 26, 1999.

I honestly don't understand why people give a shit about jfk jr.he appears to have done nothing but ball movie stars.mabe it's because he made his money the old fasion way,by inheriting it.It's like he counts more than the thousands of people world wide who've died since then.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

I would like to suggest that perhaps JJ was not the only person with poor visibility................

To 'excuse' these indicators as being delusional would imply the American public is nothing more than a mass of 'consumers', wait a minute........we ARE nothing more than a mass of consumers, shucks. :(

It's always best to wait for someone else to tell us what to think about something, isn't it? Much easier than thinking for ourselves and running the unacceptable risk that we might be wrong. I really wish the media would tell us what to do about Y2K, it's nearly August 1999! I'll go check CNN, be back later..........

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 26, 1999.

Sounds to me like the Kennedy's need to retire to their bungalows if they are to stay alive. They just can't seem to take the hint that the angel of death is knocking at their door. Too spooky for me.

-- spooked (spooked@spoooooky.com), July 26, 1999.

Epitaph for John, John: In the immortal words of a famous American, Forrest Gump, "stupid is as stupid does." Bubba

-- Bubba (Bubba@Bubbbbba.com), July 26, 1999.

I used to fly small airplanes. What happened to JFKJR was unfortunately a common type of accident that even experienced pilots fear. He was flying at night, no visual reference to the horizon. He was watching the "ball", which seemed to show the plane was straight and level. Yet his airspeed kept increasing. That confused him, because the centrifugal force of the slow bank he was unwittingly making kept the ball level and the seat of his pants firmly in ther chair. The natural but wrong response is to pull the nose up to reduce airspeed, next thing you know, high speed stall. It takes about 4,000 feet to recover from a stall, he only had 2,500 feet in altitude, bye-bye. I never flew at night, but I flew in white-out snow conditions, it will scare the bejesus out of you. Airplanes are unforgiving of error, and inexperience is the great killer of pilots. There is a saying, "There are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots". Flying is not a macho thing, the best fliers are cautious, meticulous people who take few risks and are not easily rattled in scary situations. I actually chalked up more hours in the air than Kennedy, but I wouldn't have tried to take any passengers because I wasn't secure enough to be responsible for anyone but myself. I flew over cornfields alot, so people on the ground were safer. What happened was sad but very predictable. No bomb theories need be invoked.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), July 26, 1999.

This is sooo much BS.

Use your grade school math and it shows this story to be nonsense.

Radar showed JFK's plane descending at a rate of 4,700 feet per minute which figures out to be a verticle speed of roughly 53 mph.

A free falling object will fall at a rate of roughly 120mph which is 10,560 feet per minute.

I find it hard to believe that the NTSB is releasing ANY information until their investigation is complete - but

If the tail section had separated prior to impact with the water, it could have happened from the aerodynamic stress of trying to pull the plane's nose up at too high of a speed. All of this is speculation anyway. I do not know what the manuevering speed of the Saratoga is, but I would guess it to be somewhere in the 110-120mph range. The VNE (never exceed) of the craft is probably close to 200mph.

Let's get back to why our coffee pots are going to crap-out due to Y2K and leave the Kennedy family alone.

Yours in COBOL... Dino!

-- (COBOL_Dinosaur@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

No, bombs don't need to be invoked. Planes crash all the time... just like Sec. Brown's plane, right? All I know is there is a string (to put it mildly) of accidental deaths and "suicides" littering the Klinton's career path and any "accident" that so conveniently benefits Mrs. Klinton's bid for power is subject to intense suspicion in my book. Do you think Hillary would have stood any chance running against Kennedy in New York? Hmmmmm? Do you think she would have had another opportunity for power while hubby was Pres? Phil

-- Phil Morris (patrickhenry7@hotmail.com), July 26, 1999.

Hmmmmmmmm.....cremation and burial-at-sea in 24 hours of the dicoveries of the remains.......

....no time to check and verify if there were .45 caliber bullet holes in their heads.

I guess they learned how to plug leaks much more efficiently after Ron Brown's plane crash in Bosnia.

Nothing exixts anymore but spin and bullshit....which leads to more unanswered questions...which leads to more conspiracy theories.

-- Curiouser (.@ndcurio.ser), July 26, 1999.

Here's my addition to conspiracycentral.com :-)

His magazine going bust, JFK Jr. wanted another job. Probably wasn't going to run for President, but for Senator. Teddy has a lock on Mass., so Jr. was going to run from New York. But Hillary regards that as her turf. Since she is really the brains behind the Klinton presidency, she had Jr. offed. Think that will "fly"?

Not that I don't believe in conspiracies. When "they" (government or minions) destroy the evidence, like the building in Oklahoma City that McVeigh supposedly blew up, I get suspicious.

-- A (A@AisA.com), July 26, 1999.

I find it hard to believe that people will so readily believe that Y2K is being covered up, but Kennedy crash was just an "accident". It certainly looks that way if you remove just about every original statement that was made about this crash. Where is the mysterious flight instructor? Did you know there was a posting on a MSNBC bb from an FBI agent Steven McCraw in NYC stating "accident's" possible links with Bush campaign people, and requesting information from the public. A third Kennedy assasination would really be a surprise?

-- Gia (laureltree7@hotmail.com), July 26, 1999.

And Senator Inhoffe's propellor "fel off" a few months ago after he took billyjeff to task over treason -

hmmmmm pattern here, Ron Brown... hmmmmmm

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.


Your mind is playing terrible tricks on you. Seek proper counseling soon, I beg you! You seem like a nice enough fellow, but I am worried about you! Please Andy, please seek medical help.

The lunatic is in my head

The lunatic is in my head

You raise the blade, you make the change

You re-arrange me 'till I'm sane

You lock the door

And throw away the key

There's someone in my head but it's not me.

And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear

You shout and no one seems to hear

And if the band you're in starts playing different tunes

I'll see you on the dark side of the moon

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

I'll have to side with the skeptics on this one. Stupidity is so much easier to explain than conspiracy.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), July 26, 1999.

Dogs of war and men of hate
With no cause, we don't discriminate
Discovery is to be disowned
Our currency is flesh and bone
Hell opened up and put on sale
Gather 'round and haggle
For hard cash, we will lie and deceive
Even our masters don't know the web we weave

One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world

Invisible transfers, long distance calls,
Hollow laughter in marble halls
Steps have been taken, a silent uproar
Has unleashed the dogs of war
You can't stop what has begun
Signed, sealed, they deliver oblivion
We all have a dark side, to say the least
And dealing in death is the nature of the beast

One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world

The dogs of war don't negotiate
The dogs of war won't capitulate,
They will take and you will give,
And you must die so that they may live
You can knock at any door,
But wherever you go, you know they've been there before
Well winners can lose and things can get strained
But whatever you change, you know the dogs remain.

One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world ... One world

-- Dogs of War (saw'em@rice.stadium), July 26, 1999.

This is hilarious, all kinds of folks on this forum see government conspiracies in road signs, white jeeps, any and every government announcement about Y2K. No matter what an official says, he is *lying*. They accuse the government of lying, spinning, planning a NWO takeover, lurking on this forum and even worse, constructing concentration camps for hoarders, etc., Yet they cannot possibly accept even the idea that this plane crash may have had a darker side.

Frankly, I don't think it was anything but a series of mistakes. I'm just amused at how quick people are to jump on conspiracies when it suits their craziness, but when someone else suspects a cover-up, or conspiracy, then of course, *they are CRAZY, this wasn't a conspiracy*!

By the way, I was married to a pilot at one time, and he and other pilots all said that this type accident happens to the experienced, as well as to inexperienced pilots. Forrest Covington is correct about that. I also went along a few times when he was helping friends flying at night (he was also an instructor, and I saw how easily some became disoriented at night, and this wasn't over water.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), July 26, 1999.

Uncle DeeDah,

One day you will kow-tow to me on your kness and beg forgiveness for your faith in the gubbmint which has shat on you...

Just keep an open mind - ok? This story has only just begun.

BTW I was at the premiere concert of the Floyd's Dark side Of The Moon at the Rainbow Theatre (in North London, alas no more), with Soft Machine as the back-up band singing "I'm A Believer" (which your not Unc :) ), after the lead singer broke his back diving into an empty swimming pool or something like that...

Those were the days...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.


I fear that you misunderstand me. I say that to you from a caring and loving heart. I worry about you friend, it is not meant in an evil manner.

Come for a visit here some day, we will get piss-ass drunk together, and your kind, caring Unc will set you straight.

In the meanwhile, check under "Mental Health" in the yellow pages.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), July 26, 1999.

The REAL "Kennedy Curse" is that Ted is the only survivor.

-- kozak (kozak@formerusaf.guv), July 26, 1999.

"the sun is the same in a relative way but you're older shorter of breath and one day closer to death...."

"in my rearview mirror the sun is going down sinking behind bridges in the road I think of all the good things that we have left undone And I suffer premonitions, confirm suspiciouns Of the holocaust to come..."

"if you didnt care what happened to me i didnt care what happened to you we would zigzag our way through the boredom and pain occasionally glancing up through the rain wondering which of the buggers to blame and watching for pigs on the wing..."

"if i go insane, please don't put your wire in my brain..."

"if I were a good man, i'd talk to you more often than I do..."

"you gotta be crazy, gotta have a real need you gotta sleep on your toes when you're on the street you have to be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed; then moving in silently downwind and out of sight you've got to strike when the moment is right without thinking; and after awhile you can work on points for style like a club tie, firm handshake, suddenlookinthe eye and an easy smile; you have to be trusted by the people that you lie to so that when they turn their backs on you you get the chance to put the knife in..."

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), July 26, 1999.

Total nonsense - as the other pilots in this wasted thread have said. I don't have Taz's qualifications, but I have flown VFR night flights over totally darkened terrain in what was considered "partly cloudy" 5 mile visibility. It is REAL easy to convince yourself that you are either headed straight down or straight up when in fact the wings are level. JK had no business flying in the manner he chose - almost suicidal IMHO. A flight instructor was supposed to go with him but cancelled for family reasons. The flight was supposed to go during the day but the sister-in-law was late. Like many tragedies, a compilation of small mistakes leading to a large one.

Now focus real hard, this society has decided to take off into the dark in a very complex craft. Some of the important sub-systems ARE going to fail soon. It has foolishly ignored experienced pilots who have urged greater caution. And guess what, you are onboard staring into the darkness. Ready?

-- RDH (drherr@erols.com), July 26, 1999.

Don't do it Andy - its a setup! Think of all the opportunities the evil Deedah would have, as you were getting "piss-ant drunk" as he says, to infiltrate your mind and body with the heinous poisons of truth. He may even have a stash of the notorious Devil's Weed that Paul Davis has alerted us to be on the lookout for when dealing with his type.

If Deedah is REALLY as concerned of your mental welfare as he says, he would unleash the assassins on his own self, so that his vile tormenting of your great brain might cease.

But the Yellow Pages might be a safe bet.

-- a (a@a.a), July 26, 1999.

from the link referenced at the top of the thread:

178 Seconds to Live

How long can a pilot who has little or no instrument training expect to live after he flies into bad weather and loses visual contact? Researchers at the University of Illinois did some tests and came up with some very interesting data. Twenty student "guinea pigs" flew into simulated instrument weather, and all went into graveyard spirals or rollercoasters [a tribute to the U of I flight training program??]. The outcome differed in only one respect - the time required till control was lost. The interval ranged from 480 seconds to 20 seconds. The average time was 178 seconds -- two seconds short of three minutes.

Here's the fatal scenario. . . . . . .

The sky is overcast and the visibility is poor. That reported five mile visibility looks more like two, and you can't judge the height of the overcast. Your altimeter tells you that you are at 1500 feet but your map tells you that there's lcoal terrain as high as 1200 feet. There might be a tower nearby because you're not sure how far off course you are. But you've flown into worse weather than this, so press on.

You find yourself unconsciously easing back just a bit on the controls to clear those towers. With no warning, you're in the soup. You peer so hard into the milky white mist that your eyes hurt. You fight the feeling in your stomach. You try to swallow, only to find your mouth dry. Now you realize you should have waited for better weather. The appointment was important, but not all that important. Somewhere a voice is saying, "You've had it -- it's all over!"

You now have 178 seconds to live.

Your aircraft feels on even keel but your compass turns slowly. You push a little rudder and add a little pressure on the controls to stop the turn but this feels unnatural and you return the controls to their original position. This feels better but now your compass is turning a little faster and your airspeed is increasing slightly. You scan your instruments for help but what you see looks somewhat unfamiliar. You're sure that this is just a bad spot. You'll break out in a few minutes. (But you don't have a few minutes left. . .)

You now have 100 seconds to live.

You glance at your altimeter and you are shocked to see it unwinding. You're already down to 1200 feet. Instinctively, you pull back on the controls but the altimeter still unwinds. The engine is into the red and the airspeed, nearly so.

You have 45 seconds to live.

Now you're sweating and shaking. There must be something wrong with the controls; pulling back only moves the airspeed indicator further into the red. You can hear the wind tearing at the aircraft.

You are about to meet your Maker; you have 10 seconds to live.

Suddenly you see the ground. The trees rush up at you. You can see the horizon if you turn your head far enough but it's at a weird angle -- you're almost inverted. You open your mouth to scream but. . . . . .

. . . .you just ran out of seconds.

Think about it before you press on into marginal weather.

-- a (a@a.a), July 26, 1999.

Are you guys yellow pages sales reps or what?

You miss my point. I agree with you all about disorientation when one loses visual data - horizon, lights on the ground etc. - I'm not argueing with that.

I'm saying read the Skolnick pieces, there are 4 of them, relate this information to what you know about just how far certain groups will go to ensure their power base, put the pieces together.

There's a lot more to this story IMHO, too many things don't add up here.

LOL DeeDah and a, very droll the pair of you :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 26, 1999.

9 out of 10 participants on a y2k (largely paranoid against government) forum call it an accident. Good work, boys!

I KNEW you could do it _clean_ this time.

(Uh... you _did_ do it. Didn't you? Boys? Boys?)

-- The Powers (th@.be.over.you), July 27, 1999.


I just heard that Jr. is alive and well at Disney Land. Vince Foster was really the pilot, Monica and Paula were with him. Lordy, Lordy, I think after y2k I will stay away from you guys. I would like to live thru it all. You all have already gone into serious meltdown.

-- Breath of Fresh Air (stuffy@inhere.com), July 27, 1999.

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