I believe there are lots of reasons "polly's" visit and post here.

Some are clearly here from the beginning to disrupt. What this gains them, I do not know; but that is clearly their motive and main objective.

Some are here for research. They are interested in the perceived seriousness of Y2K, and desire answers from the "experts." Some of these, I feel, have or are preparing in some fashion for what they perceive to be a milder version of the doomer-predicted catastrophy. They have stated as much in their posts, but as they have committed the unpardonable sin of scientific inquiry, their statements to this effect are ignored in lieu of lambasting and revelric name-calling.

I personally believe, based upon email I received while posting here earlier, that the majority of the people who visit this site never post; but are instead concerned average citizens attempting to ascertain the balance of what to expect and prepare for, if anything. It is for those seeking individuals that my heart reaches. They are the silent pillars of their communities, selfless in their endeavors to protect the innocent.

I believe they are intelligent enough to evaluate the evidence (or lack thereof) and make wise decisions. I believe they realise and distinguish the non-sensical ravings of mad individuals who have been hiding in the wood awaiting one disaster after another that now merely hang their hat upon a catastrophic Y2K scenario. It should be obvious - here, if nowhere else.

Exhibit A is the biased application of the guidelines documented by others. The same bias, critical thinking skills, and extrapolation applied to Y2K thinking shines throughout the enforcement of the guidelines. They see it, and learn.

Exhibit B is the lack of personal responsibility exhibited by the leadership. How many times have they read that if wrong, the leadership will admit their error...post-Y2K and after all the terror they are creating. Mr. Poole's letter states it exactly: The time to adjust one's position is now, when the evidence of the error is fresh and clear. Mr. Yourdon made certain predictions regarding 990701. They did not come to pass. The silent are awaiting the promised response, and should and will base all future judgements upon it.

I have studied the leadership of this movement for two years, and know what to expect. There will be no plain and simple admission of error. The egos involved will not allow it. Any statement made containing the slightest hint of "I was wrong" will be so filled with asterices and footnotes about how this proves nothing about other extrapolations and inflated predictions of disaster as to, on balance, be a statement attempting to prove how correct they were by their error. Watch for similar "logic" on a website near to you soon.

In sum, "polly's" see both the forest and the trees in the upcoming events. We realise the truth of the matter; inconveniences, likely; disruptions, possible but few and sporadic; the balance, another day in the life of society at large (personally, I hold that more damage has already occurred as a result of Y2K testing than will occur as a result of actual Y2K failures 000101 or thereafter).

Some of us are accreditted scientists and engineers - some just people with common sense who realise the interconnectedness of systems and helplessness of humanity in general necessary to fulfill the catastrophic prophecies of some "experts" simply does not exist at this time outside most film studios, science fiction aisles, and the minds of those who hope for such an event - perhaps in a few decades, but not now.

Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 21, 1999

Answers

Andy Ray,

Here's one reason for Polly/Trolls to be here that you left out:

REMUNERATION !!

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 21, 1999.

All the experts have made "predictions," and even set dates for trouble to develop and none of them have come to pass. Why would anyone want to listen to someone warning them about Y2K when the experts have been wrong? The trolls are here making fun on this forum because they see the folly and drival. It's July and the year is half over. The supermarket shelves are well stoced (it was predicted they would be empty), generators are plentiful (it was stated that none would be available until March 2000), the stock market would lose half its value, there would be massive layoffs, and so on and so forth. There's a lot of people making money off the Y2K Scare and those people will retire early while those who jumped on the bandwagon will be left with goods that they will probably never use. Who will be the unhappy ones? You the doomers, because you will feel so foolish for taking the bait. Everything is a gamble and the experts talk like it's a for sure thing. Gary North is hanging in there while your captain has abandoned you. Because the predictions haven't happened the captain runs and hides only to come out of the cubby hole with his finger in the air to test the wind. "Let's start working on the recovery after January 2000." He's bored with warning people, the challenge is gone. He's probably writing another book called "Recovery 2000." The polly's are here because you feed them.

-- wallyB (wallyB@wallyB.com), July 21, 1999.

Yesterday, Clinton signed into law the largest setback in this country's history in consumer and individual protection rights. If Andy Ray were right, then there is no way this law would have been necessary. It makes preparedness on an individual or company level absolutely imperative, because there will be no practical resource whatsoever.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), July 21, 1999.

er, make that "no practical recourse..."

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), July 21, 1999.

Ray

You REALLY, HONESTLY, UNSMILINGLY, 100% SERIOUSLY believe I get paid for posting here ?

(And lets ignore the fact that when I post in one of the dull and empty moments which arise during office hours, I'm technically being paid, although posting here is not part of my job description, as I'm mainly supposed to be running a business - and it has nothing whatever to do with Y2K or the opinions that surround it)

But you honestly think there is some black-ops leadership agency paying me to post my idle opinion for the benefit of this forums readers ?

Really ?

How much do you reckon its worth ?

Is it an hourly rate, or done numerically by posting ?

Is it performance related ?

Do I have to declare it as a taxable income ?

and most importantly . .

WHO DO I CALL ?

Please, I ask in all sincerity, every penny helps.

Regards

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 21, 1999.

Closet doomers(CD's)

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), July 21, 1999.

Hey, -- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com, who ever you are, don't recall seeing YOUR handle before. Trolly want a cracker?

YOU can rest assured that SOME folks participating on this forum are remunerated for their activities.

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 21, 1999.

I know this will come as a shock but I don't give a damn why the pollys are here. It is all sturm and dang. Love them, hate them, ignore them - it matters not. This is not like the two party system where we can argue pointlessly and ad nauseum about "Democratic" vs "Republican" positions. Come 1/1/2000 there will be no pollys or doomers just a bunch of folks trying to survive in whatever condition they find themselves in. Give it a rest people. Focus on the real issues. Everything else is only distraction.

Everyone in the country needs to be Y2k literate. Everyone needs to know what an embedded chip is and how its failure could cut your life short. That IMO is why the forum is here and why I am here. I don't know what everyone else is doing.

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), July 21, 1999.

What abject trite bullshit.

You pollyanna asswipes are so full of your own self-importance, it makes one sick. Hubris doesn't even begin to describe you pathetic asshole bullies.

You pollies are here because you are an elitist buch of adolescents who think you know what is best for everyone. You are jealous and afraid. In the backs of your pathetic miniscule minds, the fear of "what if they're right" pops up. And the reason you lash out in moronic fits of pseudo analytical intelligence, is that you pollies can't stand the possibility that some will be prepared, while you aren't. And that's not fair to you.

Like a good socialist, you want to spread misery and mediocrity evenly.

You pollies see neither the forest or the trees, you see only your own self-absorbed egos, on a board that was founded with the express purpose of discussing the ramifications of and preparing for Y2K.

You pollies have many of your own worthless sites dedicated to "debunking" Y2K. But you shit-for-brains cannot stand the fact that there is a segment of folks that believe Y2K is a serious problem, so you come here to "enlighten" us simpletons that are infected with a "doomer meme", because we pose a threat to their peace of mind, and because they have nothing else better to do.

They are elitists. They know what's best for the small family in Iowa that has a root cellar stocked to the hilt in case of a bad Winter or Tornadoes. It's a "doomer meme" that must be stamped out!

I think wally says it best: "The trolls are here making fun on this forum because they see the folly and drival."

This is the true reason you pollyanna assholes are here. Not to enlighten, not to philisophically debate the issues, not to present facts...but to ridicule.

In your feeble minds, Y2K is a dead issue, so because that is the conclusion, EVERYTHING must be spun to make that conclusion self- evident. And you are here on this forum to help us "see the folly of our thinking". Right?

Well fuck all of you pollyanna trolls. You are nothing but snivelling, coniving self-absorbed bullies that employ arrogant hubris and elitism to discourage common-sense. So what if we "doomers" continue to read and post to a forum where some forecasts were not realized in full? What's it to you? Do you pollyannas ridicule a public company because the earnings forecast was off last quarter? Hell no. So fuck off.

If we are wrong about the whole thing, so what? If we're wrong, we lost out on buying other stuff, learned useless manual skills, realized the fragile nature of our infrastructure and fiat banking systems, and spent an inordinate amount of time spouting foolish advice to digital friends.

I know plenty of folks that make bad investments all the time, lose their asses in gambling, and make risky investments to get rich quick. Why is preparing and advising others to prepare for Y2K, and the belief we may go "Milne", worse than the follies of everyday life?

If we're wrong about it all....what's it to you?

If we're right....you die, as you will deserve to.

But you're all here to play childish play yard bully games. Wally has accidentally posted the truth.

Do what you want with your own scalps, but quit telling us what we ought to do with ours.

In other words, in a language you moron pollyannas can understand: fuck off. We're sick of your shit.

-- (pollies@suck.com), July 21, 1999.

I can tell you why I'm here. Urging people to prepare for Y2K is morally reprehensible. Here's why: Y2K seems to be a problem that could actually happen, even to people who don't normally live prudently. Therefore, they might make some preparations, even some that they can't afford. When Jan rolls around, unless the world completely ends, things will get back to normal someday. (We all believe that, I think.) Then, all that stored food, all that good prep will go out the window. What will happen to those people when the next hurricane, earthquake, winter storm, two-weeks-without-electricity-because-of-snow (or heatwave) comes around, and all their preps have been ditched because Y2K has come and gone?? They will be worse than before. Or what if the rollover isn't serious?

Those people will never be convinced to prepare for anything again in their lives. The morally responsible action is to prepare not for Y2K, but for an emergency that might happen next week, or not until 2003.

I personally think the real problem will be a severe recession (Y2K caused) in late summer or fall. I think Ed is going to start saying about the same thing (my wild guess). But if people are urged to prepare for Y2K, that means Jan, and they won't be ready for July. So I repeat, DO NOT prepare for Y2K, become more self-sufficient for ANY emergency, and don't say oh well, it was all for nothing when Jan 5 rolls around.

Ray, If there's ANY way you can get paid for posting here or anywhere, how do I sign up?

-- walt (walt@lcs.k12.ne.us), July 21, 1999.

The Pollyannas are here because you keep feeding them....YOU MORON!!!

-- SIUYAYFM (NOTaPolly@reality.com), July 21, 1999.

Walt, those amoung us who seek the truth will never be paid except for the warmth that we feel from sharing and helping others.

Those that are here at the behest of others and with the intention to DECEIEVE for what ever reasons may or may not be remunerated !!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 21, 1999.

Andy Ray's take on Y2K seems a bit more pessimistic today on this thread than on his recent "predictions" thread:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0012gt

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), July 21, 1999.

Ray

1) If you dont recognise my "handle", then you havent been spending much time on the forum lately, (I think Diane would confirm, this is not my first posting here by any means . . she sees them, she just prefers not to answer them).

2) Who are these paid government plants ? You have any backup for your claim ?

3) Who's paying them ?

4) Can I join in ? Cuz I wouldnt mind a few spare bucks, so long as I just have to post my own personal opinion (like I always do) and not someone elses mantra (Like many others seem to over on your side of the extreme . . Its systemic . . the code is broken . . theres no time . . its an NWO plot . . black helicopters . . Klinton . . et al)

Seriously now. Back up this accusation, otherwise its just a guess isnt it ? And if you think about it logically, not even a very good one.

Of course, if you REALLY want to know my motives for posting here, either dig out one of my past posts where I spelled it out, or ask nicely, directly, and I'll repost for you.

Regards

W

-- W0lv3r1n3 (W0lv3r1n3@yahoo.com), July 21, 1999.

>>I can tell you why I'm here. Urging people to prepare for Y2K is morally reprehensible. Here's why: Y2K seems to be a problem that could actually happen, even to people who don't normally live prudently. Therefore, they might make some preparations, even some that they can't afford. When Jan rolls around, unless the world completely ends, things will get back to normal someday. (We all believe that, I think.) Then, all that stored food, all that good prep will go out the window. What will happen to those people when the next hurricane, earthquake, winter storm, two-weeks-without-electricity-because-of-snow (or heatwave) comes around, and all their preps have been ditched because Y2K has come and gone?? They will be worse than before. Or what if the rollover isn't serious?

Anyone who discards his preparations because January 1st isn't a big disaster is an idiot. Idiots don't prepare. Therefore, the number of people who can be harmed by preparing for Y2K is zero. Don't worry about it.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), July 21, 1999.

Oh God... now we have a "pollies@suck.com" to offset the "doomers@suck.com"... Grow up...

This form of juvenile crap really "sucks"...

waterin' the bush...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), July 21, 1999.

Hey Wolfie, you commented:

"Of course, if you REALLY want to know my motives for posting here, either dig out one of my past posts where I spelled it out, or ask nicely, directly, and I'll repost for you."

Wolfie, lighten up, if you don't think the Federal government along with major corpotations aren't out there SPINNING their version of y2k, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in.

Here's an article that might help you UNDERSTAND, well on second thought probably not !!

Fed's Plan y2k Spin Control"

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 21, 1999.

walt: You say you think Yourdon will be changing his prediction to a severe recession by this fall. Hmm. That must be why he said yeterday that he was "growing more pessimistic by the day" huh?

Dumbass.

-- a (a@a.a), July 21, 1999.

Why pollys are here.

(1) To try to prevent banks runs.

(2) For some advanced warning on when the runs would start so they can withdraw their own money in time.

Me, I'm a poor slob. I never have more than a paycheck's worth of money in the bank anyway. I've just been spending a little extra at the grocery each week for about six months now.

-- (not@a.polly), July 21, 1999.

a,

Same thought I had when I read walt's post...

-- Nabi Davidson (nabi7@yahoo.com), July 21, 1999.

Response to Why "polly's" are here, IMHO

RE:getting paid for posting polly replies and disrupting this forum. If nobody is doing this why do find it difficult to post this answer? Is SAIC on your paycheck?

-- Ann Fisher (zyax55b@prodigy.com), July 22, 1999.

They're here because they're the same kind of people who, even before no smoking ordinances were enacted, went up to people in restaurants and said, "Your filthy cigarette smoke is bothering me," cough, cough, when it wasn't. Now we have ordinances, they go up to poor benighted smokers, banished to the parking lot, smoking in the rain, and say, "Don't you know smoking is bad for you, hnnnh? But they drive big vehicles that pollute more air than smokers ever did.

They're the same kind of people who say they'll cover for a co-worker, then find some way to tell the boss he slipped out to buy a card for the nearly-forgotten wife's birthday. They're those folks who see you left your car lights on and don't tell you. They believe only techies should be allowed to use the Internet.

It's nothing to do with Y2K, that's just the way they are. If there weren't Y2K, they'd be disrupting a French cooking forum, telling people all that cream and butter is bad for them and they're killing other people by encouraging them to eat it.

They're interfering, nasty little busybodies who can't resist trying to run other people's lives--mainly because they have no success running their own.

-- Chicken Big (preparing@means.no.panic), July 22, 1999.

a & Nabi: Actually I didn't mean he would change his tune, but would add to it. "Along with", not "instead of". Didn't his post say something about let's start to think about what we can do after Jan? Watch, I think he'll start adding that to his take.

-- walt (walt@lcs.k12.ne.us), July 22, 1999.

The fact that doomers believe a government would sponsor people to type misinformation to a bulletin board on the internet should be proof positive of the mentality present. I can add nothing to that claim to further strengthen the polly argument.

Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 22, 1999.

Wow, chicken big. Let me guess, you smoke (or are a stronger supporter of smoker's rights), a co-worker said he'd cover for you and didn't and you eventually "got caught", you left your car lights on one time and feel the need to blame someone other than yourself, you happen to love butter and cream (I do too) and resent anyone telling you it might cause medical problems (I could care less what medical experts say), and you don't like anyone to disagree with your half-witted demented (my words) outlook on life. How'd I do?

BTW I don't fit any of that description.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), July 22, 1999.