Subject:	Re: U.S. Gov blaming the doomers for what's gonna happen
Date:	1999/07/18
Author:	Paul Milne <fedinfo@halifax.com>
	Posting History

John B. wrote in message ... > > >http://www.itpolicy.gsa.gov/mks/yr2000/y2kconf/papers/paper77fp.htm > >What's going on here? Who's fault is it that the food system is a "just in >time" system? Who's fault is it that your bank only has 1.5% cash reserves? > >It's YOUR fault y2k vendors, survivalist stores, baygen, northern tool & >equip, ASG magazine, nitro-pack food people, mastercard, and above all - all >of the doomers in this group! > >Oops, I guess that includes little old me! > >========================== > >Y2K - The First World InfoWar > > By Alan Simpson > > In the confusion of computer glitches, amid an > environment of political chaos, we must not allow > the perception of the coming Y2K crisis to be used > to damage the economic, nor critical information > infrastructure, nor allow public confidence to be > shattered by lack of political leadership. > > For the past three years or so, discussion on Y2K, > its causes and effects, has been limited to technical > newsgroups, websites and mailing lists. It has been > a boring exchange, with discussions of lines of > code, metrics, obscure computer languages, and > arguments over bios chips, embedded systems > and process control devices. > > But that scenario has changed dramatically, fuelled > by right wing and religious groups, vendors of > survivalist goods and services, and the growing > interest in Y2K shown by mainstream television and > radio. Today the average citizen is blasted from all > sides, with messages of Apocalypse 2000, the > need to stockpile food and water, and the certain > breakdown of essential services, even law and > order. The news networks carry regular features > showing 1960's-like preparations for the electronic > version of nuclear holocaust. > > We are in danger of losing the confidence of Mr. & > Mrs. Joe Public, in our ability to fix the problem, and > ensure critical services are available. We are losing > the "Hearts and Minds" of the American people in > the perception of progress towards a safe > transition. Unmitigated bullshit. Blue smoke and mirrors. They are talking of mere perceptions. 'Perceiving' that things will be remediated properly has nothing to do with successfully remediating. It will get done or not. The facts show that MANIFESTLY it is not getting done. > > Over the past year I have noted a massive increase > in email pleas, from average families seeking > assurances, that things can't really be that bad. Of course they want assurances. Those assurances would lead them to believe that they have no need of preparation. No one wants to prepare. No one wants to expend resources that way. i know that i do not. But that is irrelevant. mere assurances have NOTHING to do with the objective facts. The remediation HAS already failed. > Without any clear message, or leadership from the > Clinton Administration, they are caught on an > information battlefield. Surely, Joe Public asks, if > there was a problem, government would give us the > facts. Congress would be aware of any chance of > an information meltdown. They understand the > issues, don't they? > > Computers are dumb machines that don't have any > influence in the decision making process of > Washington. They do not have legions of neat > suited lobbyists, dutifully ladling out campaign > contributions. If a PC is seen outside the office of a > Congressman, it's more than likely going to the > scrap heap, not to bend his ear, with suitable > lubrication. > > Likewise the programmers, project managers and > IT experts have no voice. They have been shouting > their warning cries for years, drowned out by the > reassurances of the trade associations and > lobbyists of the software industry. > > But it is not government that is leading the public > information battle of Y2K, it is a well organized > group of extremists, with sound commercial and > philosophical goals, utilizing the rumor-spreading > technology of the Internet, and the hunger of the > mass media for disaster stories. Ah yes. ANYONE who recognizes that there is an OBJECTIVE probelm, and a very BAD one at that, is an extremist. But extremism is ONLY defined in relation to the overall public who is doing noithing and NOT in regard to the facts. If 99% of the public is doing nothing, then someone who even stocks up a month of food is an 'extremist'. Never mind whether he ought to do that objectively. > > > > > It is becoming evident that any positive news is the > subject of skepticism, usually met with a flood of > emails onto the mailing lists with, "I met a man > whose wife works for this company, and she spoke to > someone who said that management hasn't a clue..." > > In normal times this is idle gossip, ignored by the > rational man. It is akin to the rumors that the military > had super intelligent Aliens holed up in Area 51. If > they had, the Generals would be billionaires, > running a replacement for Microsoft, not drawing > meager military pay. But as every politician knows, > if you repeat a message, again and again, get > airtime on television, and meet no opposition from > government, then you achieve a self fulfilling > prophesy. > > If you predict Bank failures, keep on suggesting > drawing out $2000 - $5000 in cash over the New > Year, as well as liquidating all assets; you will > precipitate a meltdown of the banking, and financial > system in the United States, and around the world. > There is insufficient liquidity in the modern banking > system, in any country, to allow conversion of > electronic funds, into hard cash. > Yes, this is ALL Y2K is about; mere self -fulfilling prophecies and no OBJECTIVE problem at all. > If every family started hoarding food, it would > fracture the delicately balanced economic and > supply models of the retail and distribution > industries. wrong. If every family would prudently have stocked up over time there would be no problem at all. However when they all do nothing until the very end, what more would you expect, other than panic. This is why I have always said that panic is absolutely inevitable. Not because it is necessary but because most people will refuse to do anythimng at all until it is too late. And then, all those who warned for YEARS to prepare, will be blamed for inciting and fomenting problems. If suddenly, in December 1999, millions > of people started buying up sugar, salt, flour and the > basics, there would be social and economic > upheaval, not seen since the Oil crisis in the 1970's. Of course. And this is exactly why we have said, "DON'T DO THAT!' Start now, a year ago. Two years ago. But assholes like you did not listen. The panic comes NOT becasue doomers have said that it is necessary to prepare, but because Pollyannas have REFUSED and then ALL OF THEM tried to do it at once because they were so stubborn in the first place. The dommers have said that it is APPARENTthat pollyannas will REFUSE to prepare. It is THAT refusal ITSELF until the very end that will CAUSE the panic. The pollyanna mindset ALONE cause the panic. > Consider the plight of those who are on limited fixed > incomes, or welfare, amid escalating prices and > shortages of essentials. > irreleveant. Sad, but irrelevant. Preparation is necesary an totally unrelated to the condition of any individual. If a scientist says that there is a tsunami coming , it is inappropriate to discuss all the paraplegicswho can not run from harms way. The tsunami does not care. It is coming anyway. The need to prepare is based upon the objective facts and NOT upon who can or can not prepare. Or upon who WILL or WILL NOT prepare. > There are those of course who would welcome such > a catastrophe Ahhhhh yes. Thye old "if they warn about it, the WANT it to happen." ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO > > > > > > The public is becoming increasingly concerned, > and some are on the verge of panic. This is true. And it is exactly what I have said. Your fault, my fault or no one's fault at all, the panic is INEVITABLE. But, guess what. if people had prepared in the first place, a year ago, two years ago, there would be NO NEED to panic at all/ The preparedness would have, in large part mitigated the panic. But oh no. The Pollyannas steadfastly and staunchly advised AGAINST making preparations. Now, the inevitable result of that follishness. Panic. In reality there > is little for Joe Public to be concerned about, for the > hard work of legions of programmers, IT managers > and software companies looks like it is paying off. This is a bold faced lie of the highest order. > The power companies seem to have the power > generation and distribution fixed, as do the > telephone companies, public utilities, and the > critical supply chain providers. Another bold faced lie and utter fabrication. They always rely upon the phrase 'seems to'. It is meaningless rhetoric that allows them to CONTINUE not to prepare CAUSING the very panic that they are wailing about. They are like assholes complaing about burning builings, all the while striking matches and throwing them on oily rags. I say, "seem to" > because we still do not have any definitive oversight > of the critical infrastructure. THAT alone should induce you to prepare, you moron. > > The banks are confident in their smug way that their > systems are ready. But if the public heeds the > advice of commentators on TV, and withdraws a > few months supply of cash during December, then > all the hard work of the bankers will be in vain. BWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA. More of the 'there is no objective' problem crap. Only subjective fears. But even that ought to induce you to prepare, yet, you refuse, making things much worse and then you balme those who warn others to prepare. The > financial system will collapse. One way or the other, it will collpase. Objectively or subjectively. it will collapse. THAT is why it is necessary to prepare. One major bank not > being able to supply as much cash as demanded, > will be lead item on the local news, and precipitate > a run on the banks. > THAT is why it is necessary to prepare. It does not matter WHY people panic. The bottom line is that they WILL panic. > The US economic system is healthier than it has > been for years. Another bold faced lie or a manifestation of unparalleled ignorance. But it is all built on perception. MORE reason to prepare. Any system that is built upon the perceptions of confidence alone, Alone, ALONE, is a house of cards. Lose > that public confidence, that "feel good" aura of a > vibrant economy, and you crash the economic > system, in a nation armed to the teeth, disdaining > government, and being told to hoard food by the > Churches, and even the Red Cross. > Yes, that unorthodo\x and pernicious organization, the Red Cross. Those evil minded morons. Who do they think they are, dealing in disasters for decades and telling people to prepare. Those panic mongers, They WANT disasters to happen. (sarcasm off) > Who cares if the Department of this-and-that will > reach 100% compliance before 2023! You could > chop 60% of the expenditure, staff and resources of > many government departments, and would see an > increase in service and efficiency. The public does > not care about bureaucracy; it expects its taxes to > be used properly, and all services to be available. > Ah yes, the old "we don't need those systems anyway' jive routine. LOL LOL > It does care about electricity, telephones, food, > water and transportation. > > Yet all announcements from Washington relate to > internal government systems! Congressman Horn's > Report Card looks at critical systems in > government. It may have slipped the notice of the > providers of this information, that when government > closed down, due to lack of a fiscal budget, the > country continued to run! And the two bear no more relation than does a chest of drawers does to a balerina. > > > The public is listening to them, and an effective > calming, and reassuring voice needs to come from > government. An effctive calming voice that urges people NOT to prepare when the preparations ARE necessary will kill millions. You are talking about telling the people not to panic just for the sake of not panicking. We need a calming voice that carries > a big stick, and the willingness to knock the critical > information infrastructure into a compliant year > 2000. > This shows a complete lack of understanding. A calm voice is meaningless in an unremediated world. You want calm for calm's sake alone. How convenient. The facts are otherwise. The world remediation effort has MISERABLY and OBJECTIVE **ALREADY** failed. That voice needs to tell people to prepare. The voice you want is one that sings a lullaby and puts everyone to sleep. "There there. Daddy's here. Go back to sleep." And that is exactly why it is going to be so bad and why millions and millions and countelss millions. in the USA. alone are going to die. Paul Milne > Alan Simpson > Broadcaster & Speaker > >=========================================== >xcaliber@net66.com > >Come visit Champaign County Rifle Association: >The nation's most active local grassroots organization. > >http://www.gunssavelife.com > > > >New Burma Shave Signs > >Pro-gun rally photographs (from Chicago 1999) > >Pro-gun counterdemonstration photos and stories. > >See the Illinois Death Clock > >Learn gun safety > >

-- a (a@a.a), July 20, 1999

Answers

Milne has discredited himself with his anti-government rhetoric, complete lack of discernment, and Kennedy hating posts. Move on.

-- Ponder (this@night.com), July 20, 1999.

Ponder,

If that's so, why didn't you just move on?

-- Prometheus (fire@for.man), July 20, 1999.

No, Ponder, actually Paul Milne is dead on as usual, if a bit rough-hewn in his manner. I understand his increasing feeling that anti-preparation types must be either evil or have undiagnosed intolerances to phenylalanine. (For those not catching this, undiagnosed phenylketonuria results in an IQ of approximately 20). It really looks more and more like this, doesn't it? YIP.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 20, 1999.

Given this load of smegma's Kennedy comments, I'm surprised that even the looney Doomers are supporting him.

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro1@hotmail.com), July 20, 1999.

Perhaps we agree with his Kennedy comments.

-- (pollys@bye.bye), July 20, 1999.

----------snippity----------

We need a calming voice that carries a big stick, and the willingness to knock the critical information infrastructure into a compliant year 2000. ----------snip---------- Allan Homer Simpson wants Cherri to come and kick the snot out of some mainframes?

-- paging cherri (LOL@ROFLMAO.not), July 20, 1999.

"Usual" is a loose term, isn't it, Minnesota?

You'll find that I'm not one to discourage preparation, having followed Y2k for more than three years. In fact, you may be suprised to find that my ideology can be at times more radical than Milne's and along the same lines.

But I'm a student of communication. It's pretty easy to recognize that spewing an anti-government ideology along with "serious" (and I used that term loosely also) Y2k commentary isn't going to win many converts. As you say, his "rough hewn manner" doesn't serve his position well.

As for moving on, Prometheus, if we all were to do so, fine. But ponder this:

Upon discovering a sink hole in the road, what do you do? Move on? Or stop and direct traffic away from the pitfall?

-- Ponder (this@night.com), July 20, 1999.

Some guy with a big stick is NOT going to get the work done. You CANNOT simply Command by FIAT that work get done, you actually have to roll up your sleeves and get dirt under your fingernails. Unfortunately, management has a Tee time...........

Night train

-- Jes' an ol' footballer tryin' for some daylight (nighttr@in.lane), July 20, 1999.

"a"- While you were busy typing away and submitting all these Milne/ Hamasaki csy2k posts, I was responding to you on an earlier thread you had initiated. You probably missed it so let me give you the link...

Link

Based on the length of just this one Milne rant, I think we would probably use up an awfully lot of space here. I dunno...Whaddyathink?

-- CD (Not@here.com), July 20, 1999.

They're all LYING, I tell you, LYING. The media's LYING. The corporations are LYING. The government is LYING. The Utilities are LYING. The Banks are LYING. It's all LIES, *lies*, Lies, lies....[sob]...

There there, Mr. Milne. Come with us. We have a nice place for you. You'll be happy there. You'll have friends, real friends. Come along now...

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 20, 1999.

Milne has hit it on the head! This is exactly the point of my thread Putting Panic in Perspective. I still can't put my exact thoughts into words, but it has to do with the panic being an inevitable part of the problem. Nobody was thinking of panic early on - it's only now that people are beginning to prep, and, yes, panic. The "powers that be" are trying to put a lid on it, thinking this will avoid any panic. The remediation started too late - panic is inevitable. Even if there were no computer problems at all, and you think a panic is likely, then you still need to prepare, whether or not you think is should happen. The attitude toward the panic is the same as it was towards the computer problem 2-3 years ago: It shouldn't be happening, therefore it isn't. When will everyone wake up?!?!?

-- Jim (x@x.x), July 20, 1999.

Milne has discredited himself with his anti-government rhetoric, complete lack of discernment, and Kennedy hating posts. Move on. - Ponder

Totally agree with you Ponder. You can bet many people on this forum also agree with you, whether they've voiced it or not. Heh, talk about Milne fitting a quote...

"What you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say." ~ Disraeli

-- CD (not@here.com), July 20, 1999.

Gawd Flint...there's a whole wealth of information given besides the obvious and usual lies. Get a grip. Milne has ripped Simpson's all too ignorant comments apart as was needed. Flint, by the time you remove your money from the bank (like you have stated is your intention), you too shall be to blame for the failure of a failed system. Ya damn terrorist, religious cultist, right-wing extremist, hoarding, militant fool! (gettin' the picture yet, Flint?)

This problem of the government (right down to the toe-sucking prezzzz) of portraying preparers in this fashion, is only going to get worse and worse. "Don't point at US, go get that 'looney tune' neighbor of yours, who runs his generator 3 hours a day and is putting on weight!"

Tell me Flint, how DO you feel about this character assasination our government is in the process of? Give me YOUR opinion of Mister President's reference to preparers as , "cowering in churches waiting for the world to end...determined to buy desert land and hoard gold, bullets and Skoal in their pickup trucks." He's talking about YOU and anyone else concerned enough to prepare for a crisis the government has so *woefully* neglected! YOU'RE being set up, Flint. Set up for being blamed.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 20, 1999.

uh, Flint, CD...would you like to address the issues of Mr. Milne's post, or are you too engrossed in each other's mental masterbations?

-- a (a@a.a), July 20, 1999.

"uh, Flint, CD...would you like to address the issues of Mr. Milne's post",

I can't really comment on it "a". I haven't read the rant, nor do I intend to.

-- CD (not@here.com), July 20, 1999.

Quick question for ya "a"- Do you have a big poster of Paul Milne taped over your bed's headboard? You know, a poster kinda like that one of Farrah Faucett back in the 70s. Sorry if this is too personal of a question. If so, you don't have to answer.

-- CD (not@here.com), July 20, 1999.

I don't think that was Flint. Didn't read like Flint. Will Continue, you've been dealing with him longer than me. Did it seem like Flint?

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 20, 1999.

I believe you're right Gordon, although, Milne does have a mystical way of sending Flint into a drooling spin. HAHAHAHAAAAAWHoooooo

I seldom ask a question of Flint, but I would *really* love to hear his view about this. The problem is becoming more obvious each week. Kind of covers their butts with the sheeple, in the event they decide to take any action they may choose to engage in, me thinks. The thing is, Bennett of all politicians, knows better. No excuse. I expect it coming from our quivering, pulsating CIC.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 20, 1999.

So, CD, have you given up? Reduced to just taking cheap shots at the messengers now and not even reading what they post? Hmm. sounds like you've got the Doc Paulie Syndrome. He says he's "tired" of trying to debunk the ever increasing amount of information we present on this forum.

Better eat your Wheaties, guy. The party hasn't even started.

-- a (a@a.a), July 20, 1999.

we must not allow > the perception of the coming Y2K crisis to be used > to damage the economic, nor critical information > infrastructure,

WHAT???? My perception of the power grid will damage it?Hmm, I didn't know I had such awesome power, LOL...Maybe I should try the lotto!

confidence to be > shattered by lack of political leadership

Tell it to Slick Willie and his cigar!To Mr "I did not inhale", LOL...confidence? Geeez and why would we have that loss with such a fearsome leader? hehe...

Simpson, your whining to those who won't buy your fairytales. Jump off that ship, man--save yourself! LOL...

I may not agree with Milnes view of the Kennedys,but that doesnt mean he is not right on target with this posting.

-- River (riverwn@aol.com), July 20, 1999.

"So, CD, have you given up? Reduced to just taking cheap shots at the messengers now and not even reading what they post?"

There ya go jumpin' to conclusions again "a". I'm sorry you take such offense at the fact that I don't read Milne's posts. Maybe if I once again state what I had written above, you will understand:

Heh, talk about Milne fitting a quote...

"What you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear what you say." ~Disraeli

-- CD (not@here.com), July 20, 1999.

Problem is CD, you haven't said anything......yet.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 20, 1999.

I think the CD is scratched, Will, I don't hear anything...

-- a (a@a.a), July 20, 1999.

Gordon, Will Continue, I understand what you are trying to say but lemme tell ya about Flint. After his latest trip he ain't what he used to be no more. Maybe he's undergone some sort of experience. Is he in love maybe? Is he nuts or something? I dunno but what I mean is that despite all of our disagreements, in the past I've reckoned he was intelligent and thorough (unnecessarily so). Weelll, not any more guys. Don't pay too much attention to Flint no more. He ain't no Acid Test. He's more like an "As-Said Test" in that he just repeats what's he's heard somewhere else. Poor Flint, we didn't agree but at least we could engage in some pretty fancy intellectual gymnastics. Not any more.

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), July 20, 1999.

George, you love affair with Flint has finally come to an end. :~) Your friends here knew it couldn't last, but we didn't know how to tell you. Oh well.

IMHO, this one of the best rants we've seen from Milne. He's very smart and quite funny. He's very grouchy, but y2k demands it. I gotta laugh at the maroon who thinks no-one should listen to Paul on y2k, just because he didn't observe the convention which says that out of respect you have to wait a day or two before making jokes about dead celebrities. Insensitivity and brilliance do come in the same package sometimes.

-- number six (longtime@DeadKennedysfan.com), July 21, 1999.

Flint: You are right about the lies, even though you intended a sarcastic response it is actually the truth. The FAA-caught LYING about compliance, the DOD-caught LYING about compliance (twice), Bell South states that 50% of its suppliers that claim 100% compliance-are LYING. The companies that said they would be done by January 1, 1999, leaving a year for testing (which includes nearly all of the Fortune 1000) LIED. The list goes on and on and on and on. So, I guess if someone is wary of the statements of PROVEN liars, if someone makes prudent preparation in times of plenty and urges friends and family to do likewise, they should be put in a rubber room! Like the saying goes Flint "'tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt." 163 days until the clock roll over

-- camel (urafool@sillyboy.net), July 21, 1999.

What purpose does is served, making jokes of dead celebrities, Number Six? As you say, insensitivity and brillance (debatable) may go hand in hand, but not without a good dose of arrogance in this case. To wit, what is gained, other than the perpetuation of a barber-poled ideology?

-- Ponder (this@night.com), July 21, 1999.

Arrogant? You mean like those with powerful names, who don't believe the rules should apply to THEM and are willing to put the lives of others in danger, in the process??????

Is there a family name that anyone can think of where this level of arrogance may apply? Hmmmmmmm

I'll give you a hint,to ponder....it begins with the letter........

Kennedy. Ponder THAT.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 21, 1999.

Will:

Though my father worked for JFK, I'm not Kennedy fan. Frankly I don't see the fascination with them at all. I suspect Ted Kennedy should have served time for manslaughter, but that's another matter.

But ponder this: When Milne says the "biggest shame was that there was three empty seats", you have to wonder what the make of a man is that wishes people dead. Is this spoken figuratively? A joke, maybe? Doesn't appear that way. What it is is indefensivible commentary.

Oh, his commentary is vitriolic because he wants to get people's attention. Oh, he's saying substantially preparations are in order. Oh, he just wants to save as many lives as he can. Oh, he's really a kind and mild-mannered individual in person.

"The greatest shame was that there was three empty seats."

Oh, whatever.....Enough of this. Hope you guys ride the transition well. Good luck and Godspeed.

-- Ponder (this@night.com), July 21, 1999.

"Surely, Joe Public asks, if there was a problem, government would give us the facts."

Now, most reasoned people know we aren't being given all of the facts. It is the existing paradigm of our time. We are spoon fed, a little at a time, real facts along with a whole lot of mis and dis information. Count on it.

One thing that has bothered me for some time now is, when y2k hits and there are disruptions, perhaps some in great magnitude and others in lesser magnitude (but, perhaps it has not come to our neck of the woods yet), what makes you think we will get the straight scoop then?

If media control is in effect now to assist in reducing common knowledge, thereby reducing reactions, then why wouldn't it be employed to stave off a local bank run or a local shortage of xyz product? Just in case you didn't know, it ain't 1929 anymore. It's a whole new paradigm.

I invite differing opinions.

-- Glober (globe-ular@bigfoot.com), July 21, 1999.

Glober, my opinion does not differ with yours in any way. Allow me to say that *THE MAJORITY* (as usual) have completely missed the main point of this thread. This tends to happen with many of Milne's posts.

The POINT being made here, is that those of us most concerned about the ramifications of this problem, who have taken prudent, determined measures of defense and preparation, based upon common sense, the facts available and the calendar, are being SINGLED OUT TO BLAME FOR THE OBVIOUSLY *WELL KNOWN* FACT THAT THE RESULTS OF THIS FAILURE TO REMEDIATE WILL RESULT IN DISASTER!!!!!! This is not *NEW* news by any means. They've known it too. They've had access to think tanks, for godssake, while the rest of us had to figure it out on our own. They ignored their responsibility to ACT and now are making a ludicrious, feeble-minded attempt to shift the blame onto those of us who HAVE taken action.

What a bunch of unmittigated butt wipes. It makes me want to grab ropes and hunt down their worthless, ignorant, Hollywood tap-dancing, phoo-phoo spewing, pulsating peckered, full pocketed, agenda seeking, treasonous, blue-blooded, cold blooded, chicken necked asses.....and hang them from the nearest tree. Ex-cuuuuuuuuuse ME.

I'm mad as hell, and not gonna take it anymore. Clinton, the FBI, Janet Reno, deJager, AND NOW BENNETT.....can just suck my ass until it sluffs off!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 22, 1999.

AND THAT GOES FOR *ANYBODY* ELSE WHO SLEEPS IN THE "SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY" CAMP. WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP! ROPES AND TREES WILL BE YOUR SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECIES......................#$%@*%!!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 22, 1999.

That's good Will, just be careful not to lynch all of us who have a pulsating pecker.

-- number six (Iam_not_a_number@hotmail.com), July 22, 1999.

If you're worthy of making future contributions to the gene pool, I won't even take size into consideration, kay? Farmers tend to look at things a bit differently....we breed *STOCK*, unlike the majority of society!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 22, 1999.