Serious question for polly'sgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread |
If you are of the ilk that y2k will be nothing or next to nothing, why in all seriousness do you bother with us doomer people? I mean, if your right, who cares if we spend a little money or bite our nails in nervous anticipation? Don't YOU have things in your life to be doing. Or other topics that you think are REAL(not fake like y2k), that you should be concentrating your resourses on?I kinda understand y2k, I don't understand your motive. This is a serious question, I'm not trying to be a jerk.
-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), July 16, 1999
reppohw rJ eht ro reppohw eht referp I fi ksa elpoep fo stoL
-- orP K2Y (146@2.com), July 16, 1999.
Thank you, Cygnus, for asking a question that's been on my mind quite a bit. Why are these people here wasting their time? Do they just get a kick out of harassing people? I can't imagine going to a site that I had no interest in. Is there a hidden agenda in all this? Or are they just sick people with no life of their own?
-- dakota (none@thistime.com), July 16, 1999.
I thought helping your fellow man to become a beter person was part of life. You know, to try and persuade people not to be so gloomy and sullen about the future.I guess your post is sort of your Declaration of Idiocy, which your entitled to I guess. But don't wonder why people go out of their way to try and debunk the end of the world scenarios. It's only common courtesy. The fact is no one knows what is going to happen, but WE DO know what has already happened. NOTHING!
Honestly, how has your life changed because of Y2K related failures? Not one bit that's right. I'm not the fool who said TS will HTF on July 1, 1999, that was Yourdon, and he was wrong. Those were his words, not mine. FY2000 going to start the panic. Nope, sorry try again. Gee, I wonder how much "wronger" a person can get.
-- (doomers@suck.com), July 16, 1999.
I like milk duds! Do you like milk duds?
-- (doomers@suck.com), July 16, 1999.
If I were the King of the Forest, I would be dating Dorothy Gale from Kansas!
-- (doomers@suck.com), July 16, 1999.
I think it all boils down to anxiety and acceptance.The pollys have convinced themselves that Y2K is a hoax, and that nothing will happen. However, in many cases there's this TINY LITTLE germ of doubt and uncertainty in the back of their minds. In order to justify their choice, and not feel anxiety and worry, they have to try to disrupt those who have accepted the potential for major life- changes and are trying to accept responsibility for their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones.
If the pollys are wrong, their families die. This is NOT a comforting thought to them, I would imagine. So, the Y2K issue divides people as bitterly as the slavery issue in the 1800's, and the abortion issue today.
Y2k is a political issue, a moral issue, a dependency issue, a responsibility issue. In short, it embodies virtually ALL ASPECTS of what makes us who we are. Pollys don't like to have that threatened, as it tends to invalidate thier belief structure.
My opinions only, of course.
-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), July 16, 1999.
I once worked with a fellow named Curtis in a factory in Houston. He lived in Southeast Houston, much closer to the Gulf than I did (I lived about 40 miles northwest of the city and commuted every day).Well, in 1983, we had hurricane warnings. Hurricane Alicia. The darn storm nearly FILLED the Gulf of Mexico, for goodness sakes! So, being the cautious soul that I am, we bought some extra food, filled the bathtubs with water, you know, prepped for a "Three Day Storm".
Well, all this time, Curtis razzed me and rode me unmercifully. He said, "There hasn't been a hurricane hit around here for years and this one isn't going to hit us now".
Folks, Alicia hit Houston like we were looking down the barrel of a shotgun. Broken glass filling the streets downtown. Out my way, 70 miles inland, we had 90 mile per hour winds. Thousands of trees uprooted, many, many people forced to evacuate during the height of the storm.
Curtis was one of them.
He was lucky. No one in his family was hurt. They were shook up, frightened, cost them a lot of money they didn't have.
People, each event is unique. You cannot tell, when flipping a coin, whether the next flip is heads or tails based on what the last 50 flips were. It is irrelevent.
I didn't let "Hurricane Curtis" live down his new nickname for another year............
-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 16, 1999.
CygnusXIFair question. Tough answer.
I think newbies stumbling on to this board need to see both sides of the coin. That's only fair to them.
How many folks have cashed in their 401(K)s, sold their city-digs and moved to the country because of what they read here? Who knows, but if the answer is one, it's one too many.
The ones screaming the loudest about how bad it's going to be are the ones that have publicy stated over and over again that they hate the way things are going now. They're the ones that want to see it all crumble. Milne and North come to mind. North has an agenda, that's no secret. Milne? Well it's tough to take a screaming lunatic seriously about anything at all. But some have, hook-line-and-sinker, 'a' comes to mind.
I'm in the business and see good news every day. And, yes, there are failures too. But failures are part of everyday life now. And the failures are being fixed NOW.
Basically, you need to see both sides.
Deano
-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), July 16, 1999.
!recnac sa ynnuf sa tuoba dna ,orP norom gnickuf a era ouY
-- aENOZirA (Y2KPRO@imbicile.com), July 16, 1999.
SUCK wrote the following, my response in ()I thought helping your fellow man to become a beter person(What makes the way YOU think "better") was part of life. You know, to try and persuade people not to be so gloomy and sullen about the future(I'm not). I guess your post is sort of your Declaration of Idiocy(You're right, asking a polly a question is an idiotic thing..stupid me), which your entitled to I guess. But don't wonder why people go out of their way to try and debunk the end of the world scenarios. It's only common courtesy(Gee thank's). The fact is no one knows what is going to happen(REALLY, I thought you just said I was an idiot for taking the oposite view of you. If no one knows what the y2k outcome will be, and I'm an idiot for believing scenario "a", by that logic wouldn't YOU be an IDIOT too for believing scenario "b"?), but WE DO know what has already happened. NOTHING(I'm not going to list all of what happened, but stuff has-Fool)!
Honestly, how has your life changed because of Y2K related failures? Not one bit that's right. I'm not the fool who said TS will HTF on July 1, 1999, that was Yourdon, and he was wrong. Those were his words, not mine. FY2000 going to start the panic. Nope, sorry try again. Gee, I wonder how much "wronger" a person can get.
Normally I don't stoop to this level, but your attack on me was NOT provoked. I made it clear in my question, that I was merely waondering what the polly logic was for being here. Buttmunch!
-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), July 16, 1999.
Dennis I appreciate your attempt to answer this question but it's just not true in my case. I'm actually working on a Y2K project (Deano by the way I've finished writing business continuity plans (did i see you're starting these plans?), if interested contact me at maria947@hotmail.com). I come here not because "In order to justify their choice, and not feel anxiety and worry, they have to try to disrupt those who have accepted the potential for major life- changes and are trying to accept responsibility for their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones. If the pollys are wrong, their families die."Even if there's a ten year depression, my family won't die. I'm confident I know enough about survival and have enough food and camping equipment to ride out the storm (and I haven't done any preps). So I'm not anxious or worried. I come here because I like the easy access to the Y2K progress going on. I come here to find bad news and, guess what, there isn't any. All I see are the old saying and chants repeated again and again. This convinces me that we'll all survive the rollover. I'll be completely convinced in Aug when the GPS EOW is a dud.
I also come here because I'm addicted to the arguements (it's better than watching Springer).
-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), July 16, 1999.
Deano:I LIKE things as they are now. I have a nice job, I have a very sweet new wife, I finished a nasty divorce and got custody of my daughter, my idiot ex is emigrating to the Netherlands, for goodness sakes. Life is good.
I don't know that this darn thing will be bad. I just have a bad feeling about it, based on things I've read. I'm sure that you are telling the complete truth about your area, your company.
I know of other companies (a few) that have finished and disbanded their teams. However, for every tech and engineer I talk to who has any knowledge of their company's current status and says it is great, three say it is dicey, and 3-5 say it is bad.
Now, in all fairness, I work with people looking for a job. I may be seeing a skewed sample. But, it is what I have to work with. The "official" line being given out alone is enough to give me the shakes. Reminds me of Jimmie Carter's "Trust Me". Not then, not now.
-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 16, 1999.
And when I am on good behavior the leaders in the ward give me more time on the computer.
-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), July 16, 1999.
This guy that keeps impersonating me by writing backwards needs a new joke writer - this ones getting stale Mike. I'd complain to a sysop, but they're all Doomers...
-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), July 16, 1999.
Cygnus:Perhaps this will help explain why the pollys act the way they do. It's quotes from a post from the Debunking Y2K forum and it's from their most prolific poster and cheerleaders in response to one of their number complaining about being flamed on this forum.
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum=9 31874834&P=Yes&TL=931816329 . . . Late in the day, to try to keep the "Movement" shored up [Ed Yurdon] began to appear more and more daily. When all failed and he made an ASS of himself in front of the Senate of the USA's hearing with his canned appeal to the families with evoked images of his family,,,,he LEFT.....to count his money. Heller has no status in any "real world" I know so let him play with someone he considers "too moderate" Paul Milne.
. . . That is why I don't post there. When a Steve Heller or a bunch of Children aged 50 can dare assume they can do that with impunity to me, I leave their playing field. That they do it to unsuspecting "newbies" is their intent.
The purpose of the Yourdon board is to "snare newbies". A new set of posts about "Y2k for newbies" has been appearing routinely there for weeks. They are RECRUITING. THAT is clear. Whether it is for ego, money, or political agenda that is their purpose.
Therefore, the goal is the suppression of dissention.
In order to do that they want: YOU to play by their rules and they will decide if you are "worthy"... ELSE: the dreaded "delete". (To which I would use GONG.)
ANY CLAIMS to "fairness" are absurd.
I could (with a substantial grant to pay for the time needed) respond to their idiocies in a detailed scholarly way supplemented by not hundreds but thousands of refs. and URLs. Since several books are in the works about the Y2k Doom Extremism there is no need for me to do that (and I make more money in business so I can't justify the effort anyway.)
BETTER, it is not necessary. We already know that what they have long predicted has fallen apart from "The Iron Triangle" to the "Billions of embedded chips".
What is also NOT NECESSARY......is to "Play their Game", on their turf, with their silly rules vs. normal discourse.
They are not a "Debating Society's Hall" nor Franueil Hall. Not even your local Town Hall.
THEY ARE A "BAR ROOM" and some of them have been DRUNK on Y2k Mis-information/Propaganda/FearMantras for a long time.
Some are VESTED INTERESTS with web sites peddling everything from Gold coins to dried food and recipes for Y2k Survival Meals to "non-hybrid seeds" at FIVE TIMES Burpees' prices for the same species.
Others direct traffic to Hyatt, "Dear Karen" and of course: Loser Wire and North.
Some of the regulars at EY are skilled infighters in the "radical" politics wars where those who play with White Gloves at Academic Teas are routinely drawn and quartered for the amusement of the "faithful" and the re-inforcement of their views.
Try this: they are the VIET CONG of Y2k. Everywhere you go, you see their imprint and their Northian/YoreToasted thoughts.
EVERYWHERE. It even comes out of the mouths of responsible people who should know better. In the same what that the Religious Right forces the "debate" to shift towards their side by continuous pressure of the FEW, the VC of Y2k force US to discuss :
1. "PREPARING" for something whose impacts are barely beginning to become clear. WHY??
2. "Debating" their "We are right, all others are Pollies" TRIPE.
3. Wasting our bandwidth with every piece of manure they try to pass off as "information" amidst the legitimate posts and THEN...demanding that we "prove" they are WRONG!!!
4. Wasting everyone's time with endless repeats of the same DISCREDITED "theories" from JoAnne's Effect "proving" the Y2k doom is justified to "time dilation", "billions of chips", "not enough time" all the way to the Road Signs for the NWO/UN patrols come the take over.
I find the "demand" for "all others" to play by Roberts and other established debating structures to be the MOST OFFENSIVE THING the Pit Regulars do. They are using the most obvious of the Nazi and Communist Cell techniques: DO IT TO THEM BEFORE THEY WOULD DO IT TO YOU.
(I think it fair to say that I have learned to play their game far better than the Creature "a" can play with me. Today's feeble attempt of his follows.)
They do it to all dissenters from the "Party Line" and the few corrections to one of their own comes only because they know there are watchdogs lurking and waiting to pounce either there or at Biffy/De=Bunk (and elsewhere). (Sidebar, its rather curious that the flow of interchange is greater from C.Sissy2k to EY's Pit than the other way. In fact, there are probably as many posts from De-Bunk y2k on EY if you subtract CREATURE "a"'s daily dozens of repeats from "Citizen" Milknee. ))
Frankly, I am proud to say that the day after I mirrored post after post of their own denegration of the moderates, the Yourdon forum announced that they would split into two.
Mostly I merely C&Pasted their own words and that was enough to get the job done (aside from a few comments in the subject line).
Now, as I predicted even before Yourdone&Toast left, the solid clay of the board is dissolving into the mud it has been made of and soon will dissolve away. They can't build anything "solid" on Quicksand. NEITHER COULD YOURDON and so he left.
I admit to using THEIR tactics on them. And my defense is simple:
NO ONE HAS TO PLAY BY THEIR "RULES"??
If I go to "debate" someone at a University, I would happily comply by Robert's and the assorted rules of the road.
At the Flying Pig Society Propaganda Board (that is what Ed Yourdon's forum has been since the beginning), there is no attempt to "moderate" anything.
There is no Michael Kingsley or William F. Buckley to call "time outs".
cpr
Here's the complete thread:
Most Offensive Y2K-Related Statements: A Nomination (Mr. Decker) (12-Jul-1999 17:52:09)
Consider the source. (MN) (12-Jul-1999 18:02:49)
Re: Most Offensive Y2K-Related Statements: A Nomination (W0lv3r1n3) (13-Jul-1999 08:44:29)
Sorry. They are the "most offensive" for content,overall breadth and depth, and pure vile. Why should ANYONE..play by THEIR ***RULES***?? (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 10:07:14)
I guess that its about methodologies (again) (W0lv3r1n3) (13-Jul-1999 11:14:08)
Actually, there is a body of thought that there is far more to it than you may want to believe. (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 12:42:19)
Re: Actually, there is a body of thought that there is far more to it than you may want to believe. (W0lv3r1n3) (13-Jul-1999 13:04:15)
Re: I guess that its about methodologies (again) (Doc Paulie) (13-Jul-1999 16:34:58)
ATTN: CREATURE "a@a.a": Most Offensive :MASSIVE GOV'T CONSPIRACY COVERING UP "JO ANNE EFFECT" IN 64 NATIONS?? 64?? MUST BE THE N.W.O., RIGHT?? (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 09:21:45)
Press Release: CREATURE "a" (formerly known as a@a.a) GITS OutingsR Message. Starts Debunker Headline Service for Y2k Viet Cong Doom Zombies (cpr) (13-Jul-1999 11:07:38)
-- xxx (xxx@xxx.comxxx), July 16, 1999.
Some pollies just CAN'T get it - Take Y2K Pro... PLEASE!!Ba-dah-Bing! (cymbal crash)
-- Y2K Prototype (2@641.com), July 16, 1999.
I also come here because I'm addicted to the arguements (it's better than watching Springer).-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), July 16, 1999.
Maria - nothing personal but this is more truth than fiction for alot of posters on both sides.
But what gets me is the disconnect between the end of the world and the end of your paychecks. Polly types don't look at this aspect. That Y2K could get personal.
-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 16, 1999.
well PRO. when i bitched about being mis-repped. you thought i was copping-out. i told ya, what goes around-comes-around.oh the price of fame.everone get,s a turn-in-the-barrel.what-a-WHOPPER.
-- poor-PRO. (dogs@zianet.com), July 16, 1999.
This is coming from the man who could'nt spell cat if you spotted him the c and a.
-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), July 16, 1999.
According to CPR,>Heller has no status in any "real world" I know
That's because his "real world" is a mental institution. If you don't believe me, visit his "Bunk Board", which is composed mostly of his own messages to himself; the rest is from a few choice lunatics and cretins. As for me, I have a fair amount of status as a programmer (and a writer). If you don't believe me, you're welcome to tak e a look at my resume. I haven't seen his, but I somehow doubt it is comparable.
-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), July 16, 1999.
I should be so lucky as to have Y2K cause serious disruptions. But sorry, folks, I don't think it's going to happen. I'll be stuck pounding this dreadful computer for a living until doomsday. I suppose that makes me a Pollyanna of sorts.I'm with Maria - I lurk here hoping to read someone going off the deep end; it's not dissimilar to going to the Oregon Country Fair to watch the hippies (which I did last weekend - a better show than here, let me assure you...)
This forum is not the height of weirdness, though. That distinction belongs to the Christian-only forums associated with Y2Kfood. There you can hear not just about the impending martial law and devious plans of the President to declare himself king, but about relationship of all this to Satan and God's judgement - there, folks aren't bashful about praying for disasters of biblical proportions to show all their friends and neighbors who's really got a hotline to El Queso Grande. Here, y'all are pretty much on the sane side. (Discussions of Bill Clinton aside - for those of you under 30, I remember liberals in the 80s predicting that Ronald Reagan would roll the tanks when his term was up...)
So, for the record, I'm not at all *against* those who choose to prepare. I really don't care if you sell everything you own and move to a shack in Arkansas or Montana with a ton of bulgur, 10,000 rounds of 7.62 and 800 rolls of Charmin. Hey, knock yourselves out! Have fun with it! I already live on a homestead-style farm and have a self-sustaining livestock operation going, so all this "survivalist" stuff is not a novelty to me - as I told some folks over at garynorth.com, disasters and all are not the reason to go rural - do it to improve the quality of your life. I'd love to have more time to devote to my gardening, canning, livestock operation, home tanning and all that, including using my PC as a chopping block for chickens. But frankly, I don't think Y2K will be that kind to me.
I probably won't even get 2 weeks off to catch up on my reading by the woodstove during daylight hours. I have a terrible fear that BPA will keep the hydroelectric power going and I'll have to come to work on Jan. 3 like everyone else.
Still, it makes a nice daydream.
Sigh.
JZ
p.s. I don't mind signing my name and real address on posts - what are you anonymous folks afraid of?
-- Jeff Zurschmeide (zursch@cyberhighway.net), July 16, 1999.
Cygnus: Don't waste your time thinking about the Y2K pollyannas. The world is full of stupid people; we just have more than our share here. Anyway, they'll all be dead by this time next year.
-- cody varian (cody@y2ksurvive.com), July 16, 1999.
BTW, an example of the weirdness I've found elsewhither:"Well, I'm coming out of the closet! Yes! I DO want society to fall apart. I want to see blood running in the streets! I want to see lawyers and politicians and bureaucrats starving and crying. I want to see every single person who works for the UN unemployed. I want to see the entire fractional reserve banking system wrecked beyond redemption...
...So, I hope it's bad, really bad. Let it come! The warning has been given and anyone who cared to listen has had the chance to prepare and get out of the way. I will be so glad to see Justice done for once that I won't even mind doing without air conditioning. "
See, this guy goes on at some length with his laundry list of complaints about all the people around him, but the things he chooses to list in his first paragraph are the things he *really* wants to see - and they pretty much involve the humiliation (and death - unless he plans to blow up a blood bank or the national supply of feminine hygiene products) of all the people he doesn't like, so he can feel righteous.
Now *that's* weird.
This is all over at y2k.entrewave.com, by the way.
JZ
-- Jeff Zurschmeide (zursch@cyberhighway.net), July 16, 1999.
Oh, my.You know that I don't go to the debunking forum....so reading the material xxx posted by "cpr" is truly astonishing to me.
Astonishing....that cpr's followers who continually trot out the "meme" theme haven't been able to see the deliberate manipulation that cpr is performing...
Astonishing....that any intelligent person can read such "enlightened" thought as: "The purpose of the Yourdon board is to "snare newbies". (cpr)"
Astonishing.....that the language of propaganda, which cpr has mastered (i.e, comparing this computer forum to "VIET CONG"), is used with such abandon...
Astonishing.....that anyone can read this hysteria and actually believe that it is coming from an unbiased and rational source....
Astonishing....that anyone could believe such an ego-inflation as "I could (with a substantial grant to pay for the time needed) respond to their idiocies in a detailed scholarly way supplemented by not hundreds but thousands of refs. and URLs. (cpr)" -- without ANY proof of such a "scholarly" effort nor "thousands of refs".
These are not the writings of a normal, healthy individual who is simply seeking to persuade readers that his point of view is the correct one. He's not just presenting supportable evidence that he has "more accurate facts", or "greater inside details" of The Truth.
He is using denigration, distortion, half-truths, and outright lies to support an insupportable position all the while maintaining that he is under vicious attack by this forum (a little touch of paranoia there, perhaps?). He attributes all this to Ed Yourdon, the man who, according to cpr, gives us all our orders (get yours, yet?).
Is it possible that cpr might actually be a terribly, sadly sick individual? From his writing, we can see that he has a powerful obsession to silence those with whom he disagrees, by any means -- he even has applauded the hoax perpetrated by one of his followers.
This is a man who doesn't understand honesty.
This is a man incapable of insight into his own impulses.
This is a man without personal honor.
This is really sad.
Anita Evangelista
-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), July 16, 1999.
'us doomer people' ???This whole thread smells like troll (with one or two exceptions, and you know who you are /-)! What a delight! Just what I needed before attending the 70th birthday of good friend.
TanKs,
-- Uhmm... (jfcp81a@prodigy.com), July 16, 1999.
Your question is valid. The answer is as well. Suppose Y2K is bunk. If so, your question can be asked of doomers.pollytroll
-- pollytroll (polly@troll.com), July 16, 1999.
Cygnus:Here's an answer at least as serious as your question--
If only you doomies were capable of real thought, you'd realize that those you call 'pollies' are doing you a tremendous favor. Imagine if we weren't here, and a rational outsider were to stumble on this forum. That outsider would find nothing but nightmare fantasies, expressed using language and thought processes that elementary school was supposed to cure.
So whether you recognize it or not, a few reasonable voices here treating y2k as worthy of mature consideration provide the leavening that permits this forum to rise above the 2-dimensional paranoid wasteland it would be otherwise.
A couple of other comments about cpr. Without question, his diatribe contains several grains of truth. What's ironic is that these grains are buried in *exactly* the same kind of ranting the doomies inflict on this forum. Funny how easy it is to see the mote in cpr's eye, while overlooking the boulder in our own. I'd bet there are some here who couldn't see these parallels if they tried, not that they're capable of making an effort, of course. If you're utterly convinced that y2k will bring catastrophe, I suppose some of the regulars here only look infantile. If you don't share this fixation, these same people (as so well pointed out above) look positively demented (as *well* as infantile).
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 16, 1999.
Your question is valid. The answer is as well. Suppose Y2K is bunk. If so, your question can be asked of doomers.pollytroll
-- pollytroll (polly@troll.com), July 16, 1999.
Another valid question
I got into Y2K after the Quebec Icestorm and Industry Canada said that it would be a picnic compared to Y2K. Happy to say that it does not look to be the case but it never hurts to make sure you are ready for the quirks of life.
-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 16, 1999.
FlintCPR doesn't have a mote in his eye, he has the state of Texas in it.
-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 16, 1999.
In thinking about Cygnus'question, I asked myself; why do I come here?Hmmm. Let's see...
First and foremost, I am interested in the psychological effects of Y2k. Then (in no particular order)...
I want to determine who I can, and cannot "trust" to speak the truth about Y2k. (I visit many forums)
I want to discover/read the latest "hot off the press" Y2k information.
I want to see this information run through a meat-grinder, as that is useful to me in forming my own current opinions.
I find entertainment here. At times I literally laugh out loud at some of the comments made on this forum. I also enjoy the challenge of trying to determine who among the regulars here are cowardly using anonymous "handles" when flaming others. (I envy the fact that the moderators "know".)
I abhor schoolyard bullies who pick on people who are too meek (or who aren't even present) to defend themselves. I get a certain satisfaction in occasionally exposing the bullies and BS-artists for the scum that they are.(BTW Jeff, just curious... did Paul Milne author that post you spoke of?)
I agree with what Deano said: "I think newbies stumbling on to this board need to see both sides of the coin. That's only fair to them". (My contributions towards encouraging Rob's newbie guidelines stemmed from this)
I'm sure if I cared to I could come up with a few more reasons, but that oughtta be enough for now.
Perhaps some of these reasons might apply to your question Cygnus?
-- CD (not@here.com), July 16, 1999.
>Is it possible that cpr might actually be a terribly, sadly sick individual? From his writing, we can see that he has a powerful obsession to silence those with whom he disagrees, by any means -- he even has applauded the hoax perpetrated by one of his followers.It's not only possible, it's undeniable. His rantings should be an embarrassment to anyone with any grasp on reality. The fact that he has even a couple of hangers-on is a sad reflection on exactly how close to unconsciousness you can go and still use the Internet. Luckily, his diatribes are insane enough that no one with any sense takes them seriously, so no innocents are likely to lose their lives by believing his "Y2K hoax" stories.
-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), July 16, 1999.
According to CPR,>Heller has no status in any "real world" I know
That's because his "real world" is a mental institution. If you don't believe me, visit his "Bunk Board", which is composed mostly of his own messages to himself; the rest is from a few choice lunatics and cretins. As for me, I have a fair amount of status as a programmer (and a writer). If you don't believe me, you're welcome to tak e a look at my resume. I haven't seen his, but I somehow doubt it is comparable.
-- Steve Heller
Steve- I found this on the Russ Kelly site where he is listed as one of the experts...
. B.Sc. (Physics,Chemistry,Biology), M.A.(Mathematics), Businessman,Dallas ..programs in 9 languages has been working with Computers for 20 years..
(Actually, this looks like a rather condensed summary. I have seen him post his qualifications elsewhere, and to be honest, they were quite impressive.)
Hope this helps
-- CD (not@here.com), July 16, 1999.
>Is it possible that cpr might actually be a terribly, sadly sick individual? From his writing, we can see that he has a powerful obsession to silence those with whom he disagrees, by any means -- he even has applauded the hoax perpetrated by one of his followers. It's not only possible, it's undeniable. His rantings should be an embarrassment to anyone with any grasp on reality. The fact that he has even a couple of hangers-on is a sad reflection on exactly how close to unconsciousness you can go and still use the Internet. Luckily, his diatribes are insane enough that no one with any sense takes them seriously, so no innocents are likely to lose their lives by believing his "Y2K hoax" stories.Steve- Substitute the name cpr with the name Milne and you have summed up the way many many people feel about him.
-- CD (not@here.com), July 16, 1999.
Okay, if we're going to compare resumes, here's mine. I defy anyone to claim that CPR's credentials to write about Y2K are better than mine.
Steve Heller P.O. Box 63 Sulphur Springs, TX 75483 stheller@koyote.comAuthor of Optimizing C++ (Prentice-Hall, 1998), Who's Afraid of More C++? (AP Professional, 1998), The Java Training Guide (AP Professional, 1997), Who's Afraid of Java (AP Professional, 1997), Introduction to C++ (Academic Press, 1997), C++ Training Guide (AP Professional, 1997), Who's Afraid of C++? (AP Professional, 1996). Efficient C/C++ Programming: Smaller, Faster, Better, 2nd Edition (AP Professional, 1994), a June 1995 Main Selection of the Small Computer Book Club.
Education Shimer College, Mt. Carroll, IL: BA, Natural Sciences, 1971 Hardware Intel 80x86 family, Motorola 680x0, Zilog Z80, DG Nova, DEC PDP-10, HP 9845, National NS32081, MOS 6502, and others System Windows NT, MS-DOS, Unix, TCP/IP, Windows 3.x, Environments and others Languages C++, C, 80x86 Assembler, and others Specialties Systems level programming on microcomputers. Object oriented design and implementation. Excellent written and oral communications skills, including technical documentation. Recent projects include writing a high- performance interpreter for numerical calculations, implementing prototypes of possible future software products in C++, and writing a program to generate real-time quotation updates for NASDAQ market makers. Publications "OMNI: One Person's Language". Computer Language, 1(December 1984), 58-62. "Design Your Own Language". Computer Language, 3(January 1986), 61-63. "Megasort: A Distribution Sort". Computer Language, 4(November 1987), 63-68. "A Double Cross for MASM". Dr. Dobb's Journal of Software Tools, 13(October 1988), 46-52, 87- 99, 148. "Extensible Hashing". Dr. Dobb's Journal of Software Tools, 14 (November 1989), 66,69-70, 116, 120-121. "Grey Skies, Frowning at Me". Computer Language, 8(May 1991), 131-136. "Making a Hash of Your Data". Computer Language, 8(August 1991), 47-52. "Sneaking into Windows". Windows Tech Journal, 1(March 1992), 38-43. "From C to Shining C". Computer Language, 9(June 1992), 38-45. "Galloping Algorithms". Windows Tech Journal, 2(February 1993), 40-43. "486 Cache Detection". Dr. Dobb's Journal of Software Tools, 18(June 1993), 48. "Windev for Windows NT". PC Techniques, 4(Oct/Nov 1993), 84. Efficient C/C++ Programming: Smaller, Faster, Better, 2nd Edition. Boston: AP Professional, October 1994. "Do You Need an Interpreter?" PC Techniques, 5(Dec/Jan 1995), 87-91. Who's Afraid of C++? AP Professional, June 1996. "Compilers? Who Needs 'Em?" VB Tech Journal, 1(Mar 1995), 43. "Virtually Limitless". NT Developer, 3(June 1995), 12-18. "Career Development in the 1990's and Beyond". American Programmer, 9(January 1996), 31-35. "Some Problems with Java". Web Update 1(October 1997), 13-31.
Biographical See Who's Who in the South and Southwest, Data 1999-2000 edition.
Experience
1998-present Associated Solutions, Inc. Dallas, TX Principal Engineer
My major role is to develop the C++ infrastructure for the new generation of character recognition products of this small system integrator, as well as algorithm development and optimization of these new products. I am also responsible for staff technical development in C++ and object-oriented programming. 1984-present Chrysalis Software Corporation Plano, TX President I am the president and chief consultant of this small technology company. The primary business of this company at present is the writing of books on programming, specifically tutorials for beginners in C++ and Java.
1995-1996 Financial Sciences, Inc. New York, NY Analyst My major role was to design and implement new infrastructure for the C++ developers in the company, as well as upgrade existing infrastructure. Recent examples include the creation of a set of classes for exact numeric calculations and the simplification and improvement of the database access toolkit. I also led a weekly seminar on advanced C++ programming.
1993-1995 Reuters Information Technology Hauppauge, NY Technical Specialist Recent projects included editing a compendium of "best practices" for corporate software development and reimplementing existing data access technology as an OCX, as well as leading the investigation into SOM/DSOM and CORBA technology as a possible future direction for their software development. Other duties of my position included attending and writing up seminars on various technical topics and implementing prototypes of potential future software products in C++ and other languages. I also led a weekly lunch time seminar on advanced C++ programming.
1993 TCAM Systems, Inc. New York, NY Consultant I designed and implemented a real-time Unix C program to monitor NASDAQ trades for market makers participating in the SOES system, and automatically update their quotations in order to reduce the impact of unprofitable trades. To aid in the debugging of this program, I wrote a custom memory-allocation library that supports detection of memory overwrites and memory leaks, two of the most common and difficult to detect bugs in C programs.
1991-93 Systems Strategies, Inc. New York , NY Senior Consultant I designed and implemented functional equivalents for Unix streams pipes, shared memory, and interprocess/intermachine communication functions on Windows NT; the objective was to port several large, multitasking systems to Windows NT from Unix, connecting to a Unix server via TCP/IP. On previous projects for this employer, I developed similar facilities for use under Windows 3.1, and ported the Unix programs to AIX on the IBM RS/6000.
1989-91 Liberty Computer Systems Westbury, NY Director of Research and Development
I designed and implemented, in Turbo C, an RS- 232 transaction processing system, which supported up to 6 terminals on a 80286-based server. I wrote the great majority of code in the system, including data compression and error- detection code, and supervised the design and implementation of the rest of the project.
1987-89 ICM Services, Inc. Great Neck, NY Product Manager I wrote a completely new set of C string functions to include length checking on all string modifications and the ability to handle strings containing null characters. Other routines I wrote for the ICM standard function library include functions to manage keyed random access files and a completely user-definable screen handling package. I ported this library, which consists of about 750 Kbytes of C source code, to the Tandem C compiler and the Turbo C compiler. I also wrote a data compression program based on arithmetic coding, which reduced a SWIFT file of over 700 Kbytes to slightly over 200K. I provided technical leadership and supervision of software development for their next generation of electronic banking systems.
1986-88 Spencer Organization, Inc. Westwood, NJ Consultant I designed and wrote, in 68000 assembly language and a 32081 macro language of my own invention, floating point hardware drivers for APL. The resulting throughput of more than 30 Kflops for double precision arithmetic at the APL level compared well with compiled FORTRAN on the VAX 11/780, using the BYTE floating point benchmark.
1984-87 Sperry Corporation Great Neck, NY Consultant As Trident test coordinator, I supervised a team of five programmers testing real time 68000 and AN/UYK programs for the control panel of the Trident navigation subsystem. In addition to my supervisory duties, I wrote two utility programs in Turbo Pascal. The first was a full-duplex intelligent terminal emulator for the Sperry PC, which operated at 9600 baud and included features such as keystroke capture and replay, either single-stepped or continuous. The second was a configuration management program which allowed comparison of developers' code with the code captured in the software vault, thus enabling automated isolation of differences and tracking of versions. On earlier projects for this client, I wrote a program design specification for the Pascal version of a "bootstrap media generator", and coded a significant portion of the program.
1984 Citibank CBT&EG Melville, NY Consultant I designed and wrote a token-threaded interpretive systems programming language on the Apple ][e, which was used in the conversion of a large multitasking real-time communications program for home banking from IBM PC C to the Apple. The implementation consisted of approximately 6000 lines of assembly language.
1982-84 New Language Associates New York, NY Director of Software Development I conceptualized, designed, and coded a new computer language and application programs in that language. This system consisted of approximately 18000 of Z80 assembly language and approximately 5000 lines of code written in the language itself, including the word processor originally used to produce this resume. Advanced features of this language included rapid compilation (4000 lines/minute on a 4 MHz Z80), extremely compact code (a 1000 line program compiled to approximately 8 Kbytes of object code) and a rich variety of intrinsic operators and data types, including arrays of variable-length strings stored in virtual memory. This project also included approximately 2000 lines of 68000 assembly language coding.
1978-82 Micro Corporation Philadelphia, PA Director of Software Development I designed and coded DATAMASTER, a comprehensive data-base management system for small business and professional applications. This system consisted of more than 200 Kbytes of code in BASIC and Z80 assembly language , about evenly divided. More than 300 copies of this system were delivered.
1976-77 Quotron Systems, Inc. New York, NY Senior programmer/analyst I designed and coded, in structured macro assembly language, real-time information processing systems for commodity exchanges.
1974-76 General Instrument Corporation Towson, MD Assistant Director of Research and Development I designed and wrote utilities (text editor, directory sorter), real-time communications programs (error detecting and retransmitting tape transmission program), and advanced text processing software. I also participated in the design of a transaction processing system specified at 200 transactions/second against a 13 gigabyte database; my contributions were in the areas of network configuration, hardware and software selection, language specification, and vendor interface.
Other projects Participation in design and implementation of a hierarchically ordered information retrieval system allowing multiple simultaneous access and update by key, sequence, and ownership orderings. Market research and development of commodity account calculation and other software for programmable calculators and personal computers. Design and implementation of an order entry, inventory control, and sales analysis on CALL/360 timesharing, and conversion to CDC 6400 timesharing. Analysis, design, and coding of actuarial and other insurance-related systems.
-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), July 16, 1999.
It doesn't matter if YtwoKwannabepro is a woman or is gay. Either way "IT" is still a pussy. Did you miss your Happy Meal again today????
-- jaime estrada (beseme@dedo.net), July 16, 1999.
Steve,Quite impressive. Heartfelt thanks for killing this thread!
Sincerely,
-- Uhmm.. (jfcp81a@prodigy.com), July 16, 1999.
You're quite welcome!
-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), July 17, 1999.
Mr. Heller,A few points... one, have a professional edit your resume. Frankly, it is not very well done. I know I a career development pro who might be willing assist you as a personal favor to me. Let me know.
Next, posting the resume, in toto, did effectively kill the thread. A link will suffice (and you'll have the added benefit of appearing less egocentric.)
Finally, we have a number of people on this forum with IT expertise. In fact, forum founder Ed Yourdon wrote a number of IT books. With your background, perhaps you can tell us what hardware and software systems will fail on rollover. I would find this useful information as might many on this forum. If you choose to speculate, fine, but do make sure differentiate between and "educated guess" and systems where you have "hands on" knowledge.
Please do not assume your claimed background in IT creates expertise in other areas. You are just another layperson when it comes to discussing the potential impacts of Y2K... though I imagine your hubris leads you to feel otherwise.
Regards,
-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 17, 1999.
less egocentric? have a professional edit your resume? -- read your own words decker -- you are just another layperson when it comes to discussing the potential impacts of Y2K -- apply advice to your own situation -- try to be more humble too -- laughter
-- dear (decker@abby.advice), July 17, 1999.
People assume I am arrogant, in part because of my writing style. (You know, capitalizing the first word of a sentence, using puncuation, etc.) In point of fact, I have been polite and readily admit that I am not an IT professional. Y2K is far too complex for any single discipline to claim mastery. What fries my onions, however, is to read IT guys who think their knowledge of IT makes them historians, economists, sociologists, political scientists, pyschologists, etc. I have worked around many IT pros. In every IT shop, I find a few folks who think they ought to be running the business... and the known universe. I am smart enough to know that I am not a programmer. Is Heller smart enough to know he isn't an economist?Regards,
-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 17, 1999.
"I know I a career development pro." I not a career development pro but I willing to help you too Steve, only not personal favor, okay? I do be cause I want do."A link will suffice (and you'll have the added benefit of appearing less egocentric.)" He do know about egocentric, Steve. He a ego development pro.
"Finally, we have a number of people on this forum with IT but do make sure differentiate between and "educated guess" and systems where you have "hands on" knowledge." Yes Steve, do make sure differentiate between who have and educated guess on resume fixups and who have and hands on knowledge and who don't know what the hell they talking about.
"I imagine your hubris leads you to feel otherwise." Mr. I A Career Development Pro can also say he a great hubric. In fact, he the King of Hubris. He a hubris development pro.
Good ol Decker. He a thread development pro too.
-- I a (humility@development.pro), July 17, 1999.
I don't spend my waking hours trying to persuade Poole, Decker, et al. that they should be preparing because of possible infrastructure problems next year. I figure they're old enough to make their own decisions. Live and let live, right?Yet they try so fervently to persuade me (and many others) that anyone making preparations for some interruption of services is seized in self-destructive folly, insisting that problems, if any, will be trivial. (I hope that turns out to be so!)
I cannot understand why they bother. Could it be that something is causing them anxiety?
-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), July 17, 1999.
Tom,I think one of the sadest things about these Amateur/Professional Trolls are the techniques they use to confuse folks !!
The good thing is that ns a relatively short period of time MOST folks catch on to their doublespeak.
Ray
-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 17, 1999.
>>A few points... one, have a professional edit your resume. Frankly, it is not very well done. I know I a career development pro who might be willing assist you as a personal favor to me. Let me know. I can't say I've ever had any complaints about my resume; in fact, I've had people comment that it was "as strong as a field of garlic". It's also off the topic, which is what my qualifications are relative to that of CPR.
However, I rarely turn down free professional services, so if your friend is interested in "improving" my resume, by all means forward it to him or her. >>Next, posting the resume, in toto, did effectively kill the thread. A link will suffice (and you'll have the added benefit of appearing less egocentric.) My qualifications were being compared unfavorably to those of CPR, who I'm sure has written some programs during his career as a real-estate salesman. Therefore, I decided to set the record straight. >>Finally, we have a number of people on this forum with IT expertise. In fact, forum founder Ed Yourdon wrote a number of IT books. With your background, perhaps you can tell us what hardware and software systems will fail on rollover. I would find this useful information as might many on this forum. If you choose to speculate, fine, but do make sure differentiate between and "educated guess" and systems where you have "hands on" knowledge. I have not attempted to claim that I know which systems will fail. What I do know from 30 years of experience in IT is that most large software projects are very late and buggy when released. In the current situation that we face, this suggests the extremely high probability of failure of many systems simultaneously or nearly simultaneously. The possible consequences of this are horrendous; therefore, the prudent course is to take precautions against failure of major parts of the economy. Adding the wildcard of embedded systems failure makes prudent preparation even more important. >>Please do not assume your claimed background in IT creates expertise in other areas. You are just another layperson when it comes to discussing the potential impacts of Y2K... though I imagine your hubris leads you to feel otherwise. With the exception of my understanding of the complexity and difficulty of managing large projects, I guess you could call me a lay person. But since that is the crux of the problem, I don't mind pointing out the potential hazard to people who know a lot less about that subject than I do.
-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), July 17, 1999.
Thank's to all who responded.
-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), July 17, 1999.
Please do not assume your claimed background in IT creates expertise in other areas. You are just another layperson when it comes to discussing the potential impacts of Y2K... though I imagine your hubris leads you to feel otherwise.Mr. Decker,
The same can be said of many Y2k experts predicting doom (Yourdon etc.)
This shoe easily fits on the other foot, my good friend.
-- JAW (clueless@pollyanna.com), July 17, 1999.
Honestly, how has your life changed because of Y2K related failures? Not one bit that's right. I'm not the fool-- (doomers@suck.com), July 16, 1999.
I like milk duds! Do you like milk duds?
-- (doomers@suck.com), July 16, 1999.
If I were the King of the Forest, I would be dating Dorothy Gale from Kansas!
-- (doomers@suck.com), July 16, 1999.
Dianne and all, Im usually the last one to endorse censorship, but this fuckin idiot should be identified. Pollies will be pollies, but this creature is deplorable. Sorry bout the french.
The friggin moron wrote: Honestly, how has your life changed because of Y2K related failures? Not one bit that's right. I'm not the fool
Oh shit, this asshole pisses me off. This is most likely some 17 year old pin head who, as we know, has no clue. Yo pin head, when do you think year 2000 will come about? Might that be at the year 2000? Duh! Go back to tour video games (or Barbie dolls) shit for brains.
-- Mike (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), July 17, 1999.
Mike:Almost surely these posts are from at least two different people. You should be aware by now that anytime someone makes a heretical observation, someone else steals their handle to put stupid words in their mouth.
So who are you saying should be expelled -- the polly who observed (correctly) that y2k hasn't yet affected our lives, or the doomer moron who stole the handle to make him look stupid?
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 17, 1999.
Flint buddy, you live! Kool.Either you misinterpreted my words or your just kickin' up dust. Pollies DO contend that y2k has not effected our lives (wrong, wrong and you know it Flint), and want to perpetuate the belief that y2k will NEVER significantly effect our lives. Thats pollie 101. As for stealing handles.gonna have to trust the forum to do whats right.
Happy to hear from you.
-- Mike (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), July 18, 1999.
"Mike: Almost surely these posts are from at least two different people. You should be aware by now that anytime someone makes a heretical observation, someone else steals their handle to put stupid words in their mouth."Flint----------
Thanks Flint, but I put more than enough stupid words in my own mouth. No need for outside help.
BTW, what the heck is a "heretical observation"?
-- huh? (midwestmike_@hotmail.com), July 18, 1999.
"Thanks Flint, but I put more than enough stupid words in my own mouth. No need for outside help. BTW, what the heck is a "heretical observation"?"MidwestMike- You happen to be one of those few people who I initially don't care for, but the better I get to know them, the more they grow on me. Sometimes you crack me up. If by some chance you're ever in my neighborhood, I would love to meet you at the local waterin' hole to tip a beer or 2.
-- CD (not@here.com), July 18, 1999.
Mike:OK, y2k has affected some of us quite dramatically, to the extent that we've put in the time, money and effort to monitor and prepare for eventual impacts of those bugs. Impacts of the bugs themselves, however, have yet to be felt. So to qualify the observation: those who haven't paid y2k any attention at all have yet to be affected at all.
A "heretical observation" is one made by a heretic -- a nonbeliever that Big Bad Things are sure to befall us. The observation assumes these things won't happen, which we all know isn't true, because we're much more accurately tuned in to the future, aren't we?
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 18, 1999.