Should "Spiritual Readiness" be a discussion category?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Preparation Forum : One Thread
I placed a post named "Spiritual Preparedness is Essential #1," which was deleted by the SYSOPS moderator. Apparently, I overstepped the boundaries of this forum by starting a thread on Christian spiritual preparation.
My intent of placing a Christian thread on this forum was to fill a perceived void in these preparedness discussions.
I am confident there are those individuals who have strong view opposing Christianity and would have enlightened us with their opinions. However, I'm also confident there are others who would gladly share there beliefs and provide valuable insight on spiritual readiness.
As I review the draft of my post, I believe the rules of the forum were followed. The post is a y2k preparedness issue, I am not a vendor selling products, I used my own handle, IMO the discussion had value, no profane language was used, and the post was not inciteful to be disruptive.
Since when have on-topic, reasonable, healthy discussions on this forum been subject expurgation?
May I suggest that censorship is a dangerous position for the continued value of this forum.
SYSOPS decision is final..............
-- Jeff (Consider@Least.Calm), July 15, 1999
There IS a category below for Spiritual preparation. Sysops? I've been thinking about mental/emotional preparation as well. I just read an article in the NY Times about Japanese suicides on the increase due to the severe recession they've had. (Maybe I'll start a separate thread about it.) I think preparation of ALL kinds is vital!
-- Gayla (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 15, 1999.
I think it is an appropriate topic for discussion. I can use all the preparation help I can get and that needs to include spiritual preparedness, too.
There are intellectual conflicts than can help be assuaged by open discussion on all aspects of preparation.
Being a very recent "GI", I have to admit that some of the y2k scenarios scare me. Ashamedly, I admit that. I have a whole different emotional conflict going on than just trying to start physical preps at this date in the game. I shouldn't feel afraid because I have trust and faith in God (fear not!) -- but yet I am afraid and I don't really like what that says, bottomline, about the extent of my faith.
-- winter wondering (email@example.com), July 15, 1999.
It is sometimes a close call as to whether a particular post is related or not to preps. This is not a religious forum.
If you would like to post on spiritual readiness, please do so, but keep it in the context of specific preparation, not the importance of becoming a Christian and/or the eternal perils of not being a Christian.
For instance, there are qualities of character that may be important to responding to Y2K (patience, courage, flexibility, cooperation, etc). Certainly, you may share aspects of your Christian faith within that type of context. I myself began a thread on the need for flexibility in preparation in which people did so.
This is different, IMO, than creating threads whose purpose is to promote a particular religion (whether Christian, Islam, New Age, etc). I am not necessarily saying you did this, just discussing a general principle.
In retrospect, it may perhaps have been an error to have such a category in the first place, since I can see how easily people could feel that their contributions were not being valued. Again, this is not a religious forum. There are such forums and, as a Christian, I value them.
I would appreciate your giving me a couple of days to reflect on this before making a decision. My inclination is to strike the category altogether.
Otherwise, I will not be responding again to this subject on this thread. This forum is not the place for valuable discussions about "moderating", "censorship" and the like. Please conduct those on the other TB2K forum.
-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 15, 1999.
"Spirit contaigion" is what I've been cogitating on the last few days. The fear that I've been reading in posts of late has made me concerned about the future, how we perceive it & what that perception does to our psyches, and souls -- as a nation and as individuals.
Last year around June the classic forum was pulled off track by references to organized religion, and people were alot more civil to each other in those days. The solution was Pastor Chris starting up his religion & Y2k forum on the Greenspun calvalcade of forums.
I really feel leery about letting the camel get its toe in the tent here. This is not the place for anyone to proselytize, and it's a very fine line. I think it would only lead to friction.
-- flora (***@__._), July 15, 1999.
FWIW, I agree with Big Dog.
While spiritual preparationis the #1 task, this particular boaard to too much of a gold mine to let it degenerate into interscene religious word battles. Which, unfortunately, most discussions on the net seem to do. There are plenty of other place to discuss religion.
I for one want this board to continue as is - there is life saving information here.
Just one guys opinion.
-- Greybear (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 15, 1999.
If I were in your shoes (and I wouldn't take on that responsibility for less than $200k annual salary!) I would find it difficult to handle this issue. Why? 'Cause:
1) There's more to 'spiritual preparedness' than Christianity (and I speak as a Christian since 1980.) (Yes, it includes other flavors of religiosity, including the religions of self-confessed atheists, agnostics, and libertarians -- all of whom can contribute meaningfully.)
2) There are many Christians who start flaming each other! when this kind of topic comes up. And that always ends up in total chaos for the thread's initial thrust.
3) On the other hand until people have put in a LOT of time doing preps (thus indicating by their ACTIONS that they are way beyond the "It'll only last 1-3 weeks, and then thankfully, it'll be back to Fun And Games In The New Millennium.") -- they won't realize the degree to what we're ALL up against it if Y2K turns out bad. It is THEN that Spiritual Preparedness will come to be seen for what it's worth: probably the most important tool in our kitbag.
What to do? Well I say:
1) Let 'em have at it.
2) Monitor the thread closely.
3) When/if it starts getting ugly, jump in and BE JUDGMENTAL -- bounce the jerks. The hypocrites will start howling. But do your job anyway. You'll be issued your Purple Heart somewhere in The Great Beyond. Besides, why do you think we're paying you the $200k/year anyhow?!!
4) There are a couple other websites where 'doctrinal duels' are fought readily. The rejects can go back there.
-- William J. Schenker, MD (email@example.com), July 15, 1999.
Big Dog, I agree with you about this not becoming an issue where someone is proselytizing. IMHO that is unnecessary. If someone wants to become a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or whatever, they are quite capable of pursuing that elsewhere.
When I think about Spiritual preparations, I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of either community (church) preparations, or of emotional and mental preparation. Being at peace within yourself. As winter wondering said above, there is a certain amount of fear, etc. that you have to deal with. I like what David Wilkerson said in one of his books: (and I'm paraphrasing) You may feel fear, too, when things get really bad, but you won't be "panic stricken" like others will be. Why? Because you've prepared. (In every sense of the word.) We've had lots of discussions on gun use and safety. Everyone always says the "key" is to practice and be prepared. I don't think it's any different where your emotional well being is concerned. That can mean different things to different people, but it's something they should think about NOW!
-- Gayla (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 15, 1999.
1. Am NOT interested in any kind of doctrinal dispute.
2. Religion is, however a traditional way to address relationships between people and with God and the world we live in. I live in a physical religious community, and if we didn't practice forgiveness and praying for others, would probably go nuts. In Y2k we will be forced to deal with our neighbors!
Additionally, church has been a proven help for many in troubled times, when many people question the sometimes shallow lives they lead when everything is going fine.
Let's not throw away a valuable tool just because some people have used it wrong in the past. Since I became GI, I have had to learn to use all kinds of tools and skills, and remember ones from the past. As long as we stay in our adult minds and do not succumb to sectarian squabble, this could be a valuable subject.
-- seraphima (email@example.com), July 15, 1999.
Perhaps the subject of "Mental Preparation" would serve better.
To consider the US reduced to what now passes for Third World status, with all of the troubles that entails, while the rest of the world is even worse off, WILL require both mental toughness and flexibility. I, personally, am a very devout agnostic. I find discussions of prophesies, turning over one's troubles to one's Deity (one of my local Y2K committee persons is selling her house because the Lord told her to. OK, to each their own).
Anyway, just a suggestion.
-- Jon Williamson (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 15, 1999.
Pastor Cris Forum
-- rb (email@example.com), July 15, 1999.
Looks like I should have posted my article "God Will Save Me" to this new subforum, yes?
-- MinnesotaSmith (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 15, 1999.
Do you have a link for that? Thanks...
-- winter wondering (email@example.com), July 15, 1999.
Not a good idea. There is enough bickering on the original forum. Post it there.
There might be one or two of you who have something to say, but there are very few people with enough information on the topic of spiritual preparation to whom I would want to listen. Real spiritual prep is a very different matter from religious dogmatizing.
It's a much more serious consideration than food and water, so spare us on this...
-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), July 15, 1999.
As a committed Christian (well, commit, backslide, commit, etc), and a SYSOP, I would WELCOME discussions of spiritual preparedness, of ANY STRIPE, color, form, shape, gender, etc. What I would NOT welcome would be a person who gets his (her) knickers in a twist if one person suggests meditation, utilizing certain objects or phrasings as focusing tools as a form of preparation. Nor would I welcome someone ELSE gwho gets THEIR knickers in a bunch if someone suggests that prayer has only one form, and that is as written in a hymnal, missal, or other "prayerbook".
Since I REALLY don't want to have to interpose myself betwen warring Roman Catholics, Charismatic Catholics, Orthodox catholics, Marinite catholics, and the followers of Father Issac Jogue (first cannonized American Saint for the trivia collectors, served as missionary to the Mohawks in Auriesville, NY)I would rather the whole subject NOT be run up this particular flagpole to see who salutes.
Those of you who are paying attention will note that I have NOT EVEN CONSIDERED the possibility of "discussions" (and BOY HOWDY do I use THAT term LOOSELY) between the rock ribbed biblical Christian fundamentalists and the Crystal (and or White Healing Light Ministry) folks. I am currently living inside one of them and it is INTERESTING in the Chinese manner of speaking! LOL ;-) WHEE!
In closing BD and I will push this one around the block a few times and see what we come up with. WARNING! WE MAY encourage Pastor Chris to open a place on HIS forum for the discussion and link to it. (Never said we weren't wimps, did I??) As your father used to say "We'll see." (Of course I would then go ask Mom, but they always used to agree. Darn!)
-- Chuck, a night driver (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 16, 1999.
when the shtfan. there will be no athiests in the foxholes.sharing HOPE is not offensive, it,s part of life. & will be a major issue in y2k.hope in your creator,regardless of perception.y2k will bring the stark-reality' that we are not in control.
-- spirit'soul'body. (email@example.com), July 16, 1999.
I don't think this topic can be dealt with in this format in any tolerable way. The spectrum of opinions is so broad, and emotions (sadly including anger, fear and hate) are too deeply embedded in this. (This has been mentioned above, I know.) We don't need any more polarization than we already have on board.
Specific fora already exist for those committed to any of a variety of belief system. If you can't find one that suits, it's easy enough to open one on this incredible MIT/Greenspun website.
-- Tom Carey (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 17, 1999.
Winter, I previously posted that article on the main forum. It is in the "Uncategorized" section of the Archives. You can also find it on Hyatt's forums (www.michaelhyatt.com). Search for "MinnesotaSmith" at least 30 days back (at this writing) and you will bring it up quickly enough. You can also E-mail me directly and I will send it to you gratis & ASAP. Lastly, my new site administrator is busily redoing my website (including posting the articles my old administrator wasn't getting to), so it will soon be on my website. Yours in preparation.
-- MinnesotaSmith (email@example.com), July 17, 1999.
Chuck, how do you live inside a discussion? :-)
Although I agree that spiritual preparations are the most important and overlooked, I also agree that here may not be the place to discuss them. Pastor Chris' forum is a good place for Christians, and I've noticed several non-Christians are posting there lately, too. As long as they're not trollish, Pastor Chris doesn't seem to mind. I'll even start a thread, for those who wish to contribute.
is the address, for those who want it.
-- Tricia the Canuck (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 17, 1999.
BD and Chuck
IMHO Religion should be left for the closet, as I believe Christ mentioned. (Any one know the location in the bible?). It is just to great a risk to disrupt the forum. Possibly not at this moment but in the future with differant posters.
On the classic forum I am trying to suggest that Decker, Flint and others not use religion and Y2K in the same message. Unfortunately for them I enjoy it.
Now there could be away to focus on the spiritual side with out the religious attitude but it would take disipline and unlikely in my mind. The only way one would do it is at an individual level with no referance to any faith or group.
Look for the meaning of Y2K in your life and pleasures - pain and what ever that it brings. Meaning and religion can be interchanged.
-- Brian (email@example.com), July 19, 1999.
Dear Everyone: A SOLULTION FOR "SPIRITUAL READINESS"--- our grassroots group is floating the topic of INNER PREPAREDNESS. Since we are a group of catholics, jews, atheists, presbyterians, evangelicals, born-agains, baptists, methodists, buddhists, druids and new agers--this leaves alot of room to navigate our inner landscape and belief system. Call it Prayer--meditation--stress management....Ultimately we all have the same FEAR; safety, survival. TO get hung up on the LABELS and categories of this sub-forum KEEPS us all SEPERATED. Y2k is bringing us TOGETHER. Inner-Prep is ESSENTIAL: it may be the only tool we have in the end. If we are all driven to our collective knees by some y2k event (threshold and event different for each individual), our beliefs come right into our face. Best to prepare before hand. INNER PREP is right next to my rice, beans and candles.
-- Janet Kroboth Weber (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 19, 1999.
yes, spiritual/emotional preparation is vital. it should be part of everyday life anyway. just as long as people are not pushing brand X religion in their posts. i also make a big distinction between spirituality and religion.
i pray every day, and you better believe y2k is on my list and has been for a couple of years. but i won't even bother to mention where i go to church, or even IF i go to church, as i believe it's irrelevant to this forum.
-- jocelyne slough (email@example.com), July 19, 1999.
I decided to wade into this discussion and add my 2 cents worth.
Last year Gary North had a general discussion forum that was taken over by a group of Christians and who would not allow anyone to express anything different than their particular brand of Christianity. Mr North eventually closed down the forum because of the relious wars. The forum was then picked up by a Christian group and was open to the public until recently when it became members only. I was also on a preparedness listserv that was taken over by a group and if you didn't agree with their point of view you got major spam personally and slammed on the listserv. Needless to say I quit.
I would hate to see this happen on this forum.
I agree that "mental preparedness" or "inner preparedness" would make sense. Like many others I am always searching for ways to help me deal with things. Yes, there are many alternatives that may make some people uncomfortable because of the connotations that are associated with them, but if they work for some people why not?
This would take some serious watching by the moderators and everyone would have to be careful to explain things in terms of their belief or experience and not present it as the only way or the best way. Personally I would not want to take on the responsibility and I think I am pretty open minded.
Moderators, whatever you decide you have my support.
-- Beckie (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 19, 1999.