i've been lurking for almost 2 years now and i seriously question the technical background of so many of you. it seems that so many of you get your info from oprah, springer, or Clinton News Network while you sit on the couch eating bon-bons. get up! if you want to know how safe and professionaly run a nuke is go tour one. talk with the operators (most i know would be happy to discuss the industry), look up the LER's, LCO's, Mishaps, etc... and you will begin to see the light. the only hope for a clean future is a 'socialized' heavily regulated Nuke industry (France has the right idea). go then to a coal fired plant (majority of US power generation) and see what damage is done to the local ecosystem, look at the pollution given off, i'm no tree hugger but it is just awful! then 'you make the call'. before all the flamers get bent, i DO acknowledge the Nuke industry has a disposal problem and clean up problem on decom, but that is it.

TMI: those operators were idiots. they did wrong and now we all must pay the price for thier arrogance. they are the rotten apple in the bushel. but, it made us all take a closer look at ourselves and fix what was found lacking. anyone that compares TMI and Cherblowall(to hell) doesn't even have the basic understanding of power coefficients (pwr is '-', sodium is '+'). the CRUX of the problem.

Y2K: (nucpwr: you're a poly and you know it) (flamers: i'm a gloomer, not doomer) THERE WILL BE PROBLEMS, NO QUESTION. WILL THEY WARRENT SHUTTING DOWN? YES, in a normal world. BUT POWER IS THE PIVOT, CRUX, LAST STRAW, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. VARIOUS LEARNED PEOPLE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE 3 LEGS OR TRIANGLE OF OUR CIVIZ. THAT CONTAIN's POWER, COMM.'S, AND BANKING. sorry! WE ONLY HAVE ONE LEG TO STAND ON AND THAT IS power. PERIOD. WE LOSE BANKING AND COMM.'S WE STILL CAN HAVE OIL, FOOD, HEAT, ETC... IF WE LOSE POWER WE LOSE IT ALL.

The NRC will not let us shutdown and dump the grid. I should say 'they' above the NRC will say STAY UP,SUPPLY THE GRID. Within several months the only thing keeping the grid up and stable will be the "evil" Nuke power plants. When you feel the heat from your vents, have water from your tap, and light at the flick of the switch you will thank the nuclear gods.

one last: you don't see me going to cory h.'s WRP, misc comp yr2000, and the such and spouting off about computers (i'm just a nuc pwrd Pee-Cee wienie) i just sit back and learn, some of you should do the same when it comes to nuc pwr.

cory h.: i look forward to DC WRP's, they are the best. rick: this forum is a community service, i've learned alot.

keepthefaith, johngalt

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Answers

Regarding TMI vs Chernobyl: The crux is -- Operators at both plants were idiots. Operators at both plants committed illegals acts.

Operators at todays US plants are cutting expenses to the point that safety reviews are not being performed before changes are made. Operators are over-working good employees.

Falsification of records still takes place.

This forum just stirs the pot and has no impact on any legal procedings. Concerned parties would do better to spend their time by becoming involved in legal proceedings and feeding documentation to lawmakers.

Some of the TMI idiots still work at TMI.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Johngalt. Thanks for the confirming opinion that the NRC has no intention of shutting down anybody. As I said before, that pretty much takes the "R" out of NRC, and we must just keep:

"fingers crossed, cheeks tight, toes curled, as we look forward to that "E ticket ride" into the new millennium." - - John Anderson, Y2K News Radio.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

This demonstrates the terrible predicament we are in. If we turn the power off, people may die. If we leave the power on, people may die. This would be a very difficult decision even for a non- politician. May God help them to make the best choice... (should it be theirs?) Unfortunately, I don't believe that we have enough information to make the decision. What's bad is that without believing people like Ed Yourdon, the government may not have enough information either. I hope that someday, the American Public will again require access to the truth from their government. Without it, how can we vote? How can we make decisions like this one? Let's make sure that we get the facts after this is all over. Some may end up loosing their lives over this, so we should make sure that it counts for the People in the end.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

The *operators* at Chernobyl were neither idiots nor incompetents. They wanted desperately to shut the reactor down properly, hours before. The supervisor in charge (can't remember his name; starts with a D) insisted on continuing with the test though the reactor was dangerously unstable. The operators took slim comfort in the fact that they could always "scram," and, given the choice of "comply or be fired," went ahead. Unfortunately, the *design* of the Chernobyl plant caused the fatal power spike even as they scrammed.

Be it known that the operators on duty that night died TO A MAN. Only one died instantly; the rest died later of radiation exposure acquired in heroic efforts to save the plant. They died, sacrifices to one manager's ambition -- and a government culture of complacency wrt nuke power.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

How can someone using the name john galt be for anything socialized?

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

"Operators" is a generic term for all workers. Managers are operators. Owners are operators. TMI's operator is GPU.

True believers in nuclear power forget that people (some are idiots) run these plants, into the ground (or air).

When an accident happens, you all still claim these plants are safe, "its just the idiots who operate them."

The next accident will give birth to another round of the same BS.

So where was the Nuclear Regulatory Commission during the weeks and months before TMI? How come the idiots weren't corrected? The NRC was helping to cover-up the reactor coolant leak rates. Prosecuting federal attorney's were certain of the NRC's involvement but decided not to prosecute.

The nuclear industry is a trillion dollar corrupt cult.

At least Ontario Hydro's CEO has the guts to say his nuclear division is "arrogant" and a "cult."

And he is pro-nuclear!

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

I agree I'm running out of time to waste on incesant, contentious rhetoric and backstabing diatribe intent on twisting a poster's meaning. However, I humbly submit for your consideration a stroll down memory lane. This was posted March 20, there was a great deal of concern about it at the time, you must have seen it. Give it a read before the Millenium, binge. Hell if I know what a rod worth minimizer does, could make one edgy though.

The Philadelphia Inquirer has an article about the Y2K testing at Peach Bottom nuclear power plant. It's at:

http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/99/Mar/09/sj/JNUKE09.htm

Here is an excerpt of the Inquirer's description of what happened:

"Peco had replaced the rod worth minimizer earlier that day because it found it was not ready for Y2K, the programming glitch that may cause some computers to confuse 2000 with 1900. To test the replacement system for Y2K, plant engineers were supposed to connect it to an external clock and set that clock ahead to Jan. 1, 2000. They had done this successfully in a simulator. But in the real control room, instead of using an external clock, a engineer changed the time on a backup monitoring system computer that was off-line at the time."

"The backup computer locked up due to the date change, and the system automatically transferred to the primary, online PMS computer," the Nuclear Regulatory Commission said in a notice. The engineers re-entered the date command "contrary to procedure," the NRC said, and the primary computer also crashed."

Rick Cowles is also quoted in this article, as well as Peco spokespersons. The entire piece is well worth reading.

-- Bonnie Camp (bonniec@mail.odyssey.net), March 09, 1999

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

i have a few things that i would like to say regarding the people who work in the nuclear facilities and i would also like to explain my position in regards to nuclear power.

we are all born with particular talents and abilities,whether they are highly developed or marginal, and most of us have marked predilections towards one field of endeavor or another.

the ability to truly understand nuclear fission/fusion requires a facility for the higher mathematics and a logical thought architecture that most of us do not possess. this same type of mind is also required to excel in the it industry and like environs.

this particular type of intelligence usually has little tolerance for what is perceived as emotional or irrational responses to stimuli of any sort. since they are aware that a situation is safe or doable they expect others to feel the same.

but, i believe that they are inured to the terrible risks inherent in a nuclear operation due to their proximity and total immersion on an almost daily basis. because they feel as though they are diligent and responsible in their attitude towards their work they assume, sometimes mistakenly, that all others operate in a similar fashion... this is not always the case.

i firmly believe that the majority of the people that work in the nuclear field are good people that truly believe in the safety of nuclear energy.

i do not believe for one moment that the engineers or operators would purposefully jeopardize our lives or the lives of their families if they believed otherwise.

whereas, i agree with rick that this is an amazing technology and if harnessed properly could somehow be most beneficial to mankind, i do not believe that we have arrived at the point in our evolution that this is so.

my thoughts have nothing to do with the intellectual abilities of the engineers and or operators of the plants. where i feel we fall short on the evolutionary chain is our inherent weaknesses as man.

there are safety issues that are slighted in order to maximize on the bottom line, safety is also secondary to the competition that is a result of deregulation, and safety is also secondary to the investors profits.

we, as a race, have not reached the point in our evolution where greed and avarice have been transcended by a responsibility for the common good.

this is not the fault of the engineers and the operators of the plant, and i am not saying that all those in these categories are without fault and do not add to the element of risk involved in the daily operation of the plants. i am saying that the priorities,attitudes, and scruples of the owners/licensees are skewed and, as a direct result, place us all at risk... none more so than the engineers and operators that work in the plants themselves... they are at ground zero.

y2k is no place to take it to the metal.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Johngalt said: "if you want to know how safe and professionaly run a nuke is go tour one. talk with the operators (most i know would be happy to discuss the industry), look up the LER's, LCO's, Mishaps, etc... and you will begin to see the light. the only hope for a clean future is a 'socialized' heavily regulate"

I found the GAO report criticizing the DOE for its regulation efforts quite enlightening. No teeth there either it seems.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/rc99228t.pdf

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

409 wrote "Operators" is a generic term for all workers. Managers are operators. Owners are operators. TMI's operator is GPU.

In most parts of the electricity Generation industry, operators are the group of people who are responsible for the safe and efficient operation of the plant. Not all workers are operators at all. The operators at a generation site have the duties of starting and shutting down plant, isolating plant in preparation for maintenance, loading plant manually in response to dispatch instructions if SCADA or EMS systems fail, motoring and reporting on plant performance etc.

These are the guys (or girls) who have to know all the safety rules, all the technical details about their equipment, and who have to be able to isolate just the piece of equipments required to be released (both electrically and mechanically), without shutting down more plant than is required.

Operators are often derided by both maintenance and management personell because of their insistance on safe working practices, and when an operator does make an error, it may cost him/her his own life. Yet these are the same people who are expected to perform just as efficiently at 3:00 in the morning as they do at 2:00 in the afternoon.

I am very glad that I am not an operator, (although I was one for some years).

So 409, please don't try and lump managers in with operators. I have met very few managers who know or appreciate just what an operator really has to go through.

Malcolm

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Lawrence Welk: obviously you wouldn't know an 'operator' if he bit you on your a$$. operators are the over worked employees you speak of. we are doing more work with less people, because the bean counters up town just don't understand what an operator does. hum...kinda'like you.

Linda: there is an 'R' in NRC right now. but, the big Reg shift is when problems do happen and King Klinton and his Kronies declare martial law, "for the good of the children of course", and even as stupid as they are, they DO understand that we lose it all without POWER. Mark my words, there will be a declaration of Martial Law, or some semblance of. the Exec. Orders are already on the books.

Reporter: "if we leave the power on people die". Gimmee' a break! do you actually think that i'm going to stand there and watch the core melt? "I'm shutin' her down, baby"! i'd rather roast a crispy critter over the campfire in my living room and crap in the woods than have a Cherblowall in my backyard. do you really think we are all a bunch of mindless zombies in the "Cult of Nukedom". Duh....

L. Cassells: you watch too much Nova/PBS. don't make heros out of idiots! they had so many chances to scram that plant it's not even funny, and to disable protective systems is just asking for trouble. better to scram and be fired than 'comply' and be cooked.

409: "operators is a generic term for all workers", did oprah or jerry tell you that? get a clue. spend one second on a site or talking with a worker and you will feel pretty stupid about your post. OPERATORS are the guys walking around with a clue, gloves, sweat, flashlight, and usually a clueless engineer or manager in tow. BOARD OPERATORS are the ones operating the board with the group of 3 to 5 clueless engineers and managers asking them questions while they are trying to concentrate on something important. TMI was the pivot point and maybe coffin lid for Nuc Pwr. many good things came out of it, but the low level coverup and mishandling by those clueless managers really tainted our image. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU SAID WE ARE A "TRILLION DOLLAR CORRUPT CULT". that boggles the mind...boggle, boggle,boggle....as my head bounces off the keyboard.

Paul Mahar: these are the very bells and whistles (ie... power door locks, and cruise control) that we are going to have problems with on or after rollover. but, we still have the gas pedal, brakes, seatbelts, headlights, etc... to operate safely and effectively, just not efficiently. That is why they will keep us up.

Marianne: i am the biggest chicken around. If i saw anything that put us at risk i'd be squeeling like a pig.

Malcolm: right on!

All: when we start passing out water at the gate for you hungry/thirsty masses cause we can purify our lake water into potable water i bet you all will be singing a different tune.

love, johngalt

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

John, I don't think a rodsworth minimizer is a bell, a whistle or cruise control. I'm not advocating any position here, but for information's sake I've done 30 seconds of research. A "rodsworth minimizer" is: "a computer that checks the control rods in the core and tells engineers which ones are safe to remove in order to balance power distribution. In other words, remove the wrong control rods, which absorb radtiation and control how "hot" the core gets, and the whole shebang goes, uh, "bang," or at least starts to sizzle."

http://www.applelinks.com/articles/1999/03/19990308144237.shtml

This may not be entirely accurate and the potential for mishap from failure of this device may be overstated, I haven't found any further information.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

John, I don't think a rodsworth minimizer is a bell, a whistle or cruise control. I'm not advocating any position here, but for information's sake I've done 30 seconds of research. A "rodsworth minimizer" is: "a computer that checks the control rods in the core and tells engineers which ones are safe to remove in order to balance power distribution. In other words, remove the wrong control rods, which absorb radtiation and control how "hot" the core gets, and the whole shebang goes, uh, "bang," or at least starts to sizzle."

http://www.applelinks.com/articles/1999/03/19990308144237.shtml

Well, what do journalists know anyway?

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999