Sigh. I was almost finished with this earlier when my browser crashed. Isn't technology great? Now to try to re-construct what I wrote before...

I only recently found this forum. Basically I am a very new "GI". So new in fact that I probably don't even know the full extent of "getting it" is yet. What I know at this point though is that I have a very queasy feeling accompanied by a sense of overwhelm. Throw in a little bit of dread, as well.

I could give a long list of pros and cons specific to my situation, but I will try to give just a few. The major drawbacks are finincial limitations and lack of time. Some of the Pros are that we are already very rural, have a creek and a spring, and usually have at least 2 weeks of food around 'just in case.' A big con that I see is that if we lose power, we lose the ignition and blowers for our heat.

As I said in one of my recent posts on this forum-- not only am a I new "GI", but I realized that it is crucial for me to "GI right the first time." There isn't time or money to mess around with things that don't work.

Yes, I've started stocking up a bit (more than usual) on canned goods as finances allow (which translates to not enough...). And I've been trying to find out information on certain productst that are pricier but might be good to have (water filters, alt powered flashlights/radios, etc.).

I guess there is supposed to be a question in here somewhere. And I guess that would be if you were just starting out with preps and have limited finances, how would you proceed? Also, what products can you recommend because you've used them, found them dependable and durable and view them as _essential_?

I guess I'm also looking for a bit of reassurance-- despite that there may be very little of that to be found and despite that no one knows what will actualy happen. I know my family and I will manage for awhile. But if there are major disruptions lasting into the spring or beyond, well, then, I just don't know what. None of us (in my family) have the skills or resources to make it long term if this actually turns out to be a worst case scenario. I guess I'm realistic enough to realize that-- but it is, nonetheless, an overwhelming prospect.

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), July 12, 1999

Answers

winter -- don't despair and let's use you as a "template" for new RURAL GIs (many of whom have springs, for instance). Start with heat, since you mention it: do you have a wood stove? Can get them quite inexpensively (let's not talk too many specific products and prices on this thread, just "types" of things).

Oil lamps can be obtained inexpensively, kerosene likewise.

Don't worry about long-term, concentrate on getting from 14 days of preps to a month-worth or two.

And so it goes. Is your husband with you? Do you have children?

Let's brainstorm with the other prep forum regulars.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 12, 1999.

Go with real basics, go for volume first and get fancy later. That means beans and rice, with lots of spice and tomato products in cans. Tomato is about the only canned veggie that isn't mostly a starch or bread substitute. Other than that, avoid cans unless you're getting a real good deal.

Water is cheap, but the container might take time. Start scrounging 1-gallon clear plastic containers (not milk cartons). Don't fill them yet.

Built a bugout bag (see Cassandra "soloplan" for a basic list. Start on plan A, B, C. A is living in your accustomed place, with extra food and a way to heat. B is probably a friend or family member who lives out in the burbs. Get them awake - food, water, heat source. C is as far as you can arrange, and less chance that you'll need it. Uncle Fred way up in Northern Minnesota, whatever. Not everyone has an Uncle Fred, so maybe B is all you get.

Read all you can about other people's plans, but start prepping NOW even though you don't have the answers yet. Can't go wrong with the basics like beans and rice, and as you learn answers you'll figure out what else to do.

It's not fancy preps that will get us through, it's luck and the ability to think flexibly, change in mid-stride. Think teams, think walking distance, think portable food, think renewable supply, think like a rabbit not like a lion.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 12, 1999.

Oops, never mind, you're beyond the burbs. Think about people in the city who could be valuable to have around (related to a doctor?), and see if they're up to speed on Y2k.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 12, 1999.

Thanks, Big Dog.

A few answers to your questions. No hubby or kids. Two dogs. A cat. A couple of horses (old). A sister and elderly mother living with, A sister and her daughter are just one set of a handful of the 'nearest' neighbors. About a third of a mile from us.

One of the first things I bought was 2 oil lamps and 4 bottles (48 oz) ea. of lamp oil. Not kerosene. Found out that supposedly they will burn for 1-2 hours per ounce of lamp oil.

Worried about the condition of the spring. When we were kids we used to drink right out of it. Nowadays concerned about contamination, etc. Also it's got a huge 'moss' growth. So we can boil-- but it might be good to have a filter around if we run out of LP for the stove-- which is electronic ignition, but I've been able to light the burners at least with matches in past power outages. Not sure about the oven-- am guessing it is possible. But at the time I couldn't get it to light and was worried about the gas (LP) building up.

We don't have a wood stove. Or wood. :-( But, I have a list of things I am looking into, and will put that on as well. These are some things I know nothing about. Where to install one? How much wood is needed? Those kinds of things.

As I mentioned in an earlier thread "warmest place in a house with no heat", when we grew up it was in a farm house without insulation and only on LP 'space heater'. So it was cold, but we managed. I don't know how much of an impact that one heater made to the house. Heat would be nice... but. .. I guess the pros on this side is we have lots of warm clothes, blankets, coats, etc. But will look into the wood stove idea-- thought the cost might have been prohibitive.

Thanks.

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), July 12, 1999.

winter wondering:

If you spend a few hours here looking at the good advice here, you'll find all the basics. I would say the main thing is to plan using what you have/can easily get. For instance there are fairly simple propane heaters you can get. If you have a propane tank (say the typical 500 gals, which can last a long time, used wisely) --- I would concentrate on that and forget the wood. On the other hand, if you have a ready wood supply and a place to put a wood stove you can get a decent plain stove for $150 + about $50 for the pipes to outside. But if you haven't used wood before, theres an awful lot to learn.

If you think through what you need and whats the best way to get it (shelter,heat,water,food, then maybe self-defense) --- you'll be miles ahead. Don't just run out and spend money. Water can be stored, gotten from a uncontaminated well with a handpump, or gotten from the spring and disinfected by boiling five mins. or using bleach for the chlorine.

What I'm saying is that there are MANY ways to "get prepared". Think it through and choose whats best for your situation. Nothing wrong with starting with extra canned soups/food, bottled water, toilet paper, salt/sugar/flour, and soap from the store every time you shop. I still am picking up some extra of those things weekly.

Although some will disagree, I don't think you really have time to try to convince others --- it'll only hinder/discourage you and take up more energy and time than you (we) can afford.

Been at it 7 months myself with a ways to go yet.

-- Jon Johnson (narnia4@usa.net), July 12, 1999.

You are in luck! This new prep forum will help immensely, but take the time to go into the archives and concentrate on the basics first...shelter, food, water etc. I know the overwhelmed feeling well. Start with what you can. For instance, we bought a Pur Water filter and some water purification tablets (for mobility back up) while we save for the Berkeley (our ideal choice). Lamps are nice, but you could just go to bed early. Not freezing is even better. Think...save your life... then your lifestyle. Do you live near a Costco or Sam's Club? You are supposed to be able to at least order 55 gallon water drums from Sam's for around $23.00. Check your hospital locally to see if you can pick up a used 55 gallon barrel that held only saline solution for dialysis. Get an affordable (read...obtainable soon) wood stove, then sell and buy a better one later if you can. Figure out how to live/survive in the most basic way, make those your first priority acquisitions and changes. Do you have things you like but could live without and replace later? Sell them and get what you will need to survive. I agree that you don't want to waste alot of time trying to convince others, but some minimal effort could pay off greatly if the one you convince works together with you. I don't see survival as a "loner" kind of scenario. Print outs of quotes from "official" government sources are helpful. You know, that good old trustworthy and take care of us all government. The advice about rice and beans is good. Get some now, with some spices to soup them up. Don't pay primo grocery prices for the spices to soup up the rice and beans. The archives will save you bucks if you devote some time to sifting through them. Take time to really "think" winter...be sure you analyze your situation carefully and thoroughly so that you are responding to a plan you developed, and not reacting out of fear and panic.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), July 12, 1999.

Dear Winter, No one mentioned buying whole grains and a grain mill. This is the cheapest long lasting food and seed source for you. I can't afford the nitrogen packed buckets, but bought a bit of Arrowhead Mills organic wheat, corn, soybeans and got a good grinder at an antique store. When you run out of money and still need more food you can buy feed grains for under $5 per 50 lbs.

-- Sand Mueller (smueller@azalea.net), July 12, 1999.

Winter:

Is there a Coke bottling plant or food processing plant near you? You can obtain food-grade containers for water at either very low cost or no charge at such places. I got 5 x 5-gall and 1 x 55-gall containers from our Coke plant.

Food-grade buckets are available, usually free, at the deli department of a supermarket, or Dunkin' Donuts--any place using frosting. You might also find them at a local restautant or diner. Once cleaned up, buckets are useful for storing all kinds of stuff, keeping out moisture and all but the most aggressive of critters. Put your beans and rice in these; if you can't afford moisture- or oxygen-absorbers, don't worry, just seal tightly with duct tape.

If you store flour, freeze it for 48 hours first to kill bug larvae. AP flour is good for about 18 mos, wholewheat for about 9 mos. If you store yeast, buy Red Star (if you can get it), and don't buy refrigerated yeast. Refrigeration is the best way to keep yeast, of course, but if you have it cool and the power goes out and the yeast goes to room temp, it quickly loses quality.

Buy low-fat chow for your pets--the higher the fat, the quicker it goes stale. Premium brands have a longer expiration date and the pets don't eat as much of them, so it's not really as expensive as it looks. If you can run to it, buy some vet meds for your pets AND your humans!

Textured vegetable protein is probably the least expensive way to get some "meat" into your diet. I like Lumen Foods (soybean.com), becasue their stuff is higher quality than the norm. They also have buckets of complete dinners for about $75, which might be an economical way for you to feed your relatives.

Yard, garage, moving and estate sales are WONDERFUL places to find Y2K-useful stuff. I've found extra quilts, blankets and linens; manual coffee grinder; chafing dish (to use with Sterno for heating soup and water), camping pots and pans, candles, camp stove, oil lamps--I honestly can't remember everything, bought most of it last year. But the prices are super, you can get valuable supplies for next to nothing.

Basic rule: don't buy anything you won't eat--don't think you'll get used to something because you won't! And don't forget to include a few luxury items (chocolate, flavored coffee, etc.)

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), July 12, 1999.

Instead of paying for a water filter (although "portable" water purification tablets are good) you can "build" a cheap water filter: use a spackle bucket with some holes drilled on the bottom with another bucket underneath to catch the filtered water; fill with a layer of rocks, a layer of 100% poly filling and a layer of activated charcoal (no additives). Or, you could use PVC pipe instead of a bucket, filled with the same stuff. You could also use coffee filters to do an "initial" filtering; then add 8 drops chlorine bleach per gallon (more if water is cloudy)and let stand 30 minutes...if water smells of chlorine it is OK to drink if not add more and wait another 30 minutes. For added security if possible boil (rolling boil) for 10 minutes.

-- NSmith (nitnat3@aol.com), July 12, 1999.

winter wondering

First, lets talk water, since it (and shelter if youre in a really cold winter) will be your most critical need.

Get storage for your tap water now.....those 55 gallon drums, 1 gallon jugs, 5 gallon plastic buckets. Store water. Now, if cost is a real problem, do a filter as NSmith suggested. See

Basic Survival Rainwater System

for a good set of plans.

You can use this for your spring, as well.

Food: Rice and beans. All sorts of beans and peas. Oatmeal and other grain products. If you are going to be able to cook, you might want to lay aside flour, or even wheat.

Get some vitamins, too -- a multivitamin formula and vitamin C. The cheapest form of C is crystals or powder. Youre going to need it unless you have a source of C in your diet. Sprouts can be that source (and theyre a source of a lot of other good stuff, too.

Enough for now. Your head may be spinning from all the advice. Keep coming back, and keep asking questions.

-- de (delewis@Xinetone.net), July 12, 1999.

Thrift stores are also great for all sorts of things: wool blankets, cast iron cookware, fondue pots etc.

Get some local wild plant books and start learning what's on and around your property. Much of it may be edible or medicinal. Try it out now to see if you'll *really* eat it or only eat it if you're starving.

-- Mommacares (harringtondesignX@earthlink.net), July 12, 1999.

winter wondering -

Don't count on the oven of your gas stove! The top burners on my gas stove will light fine with a match if there is no electricity for ignition; the oven is a different matter. The product booklet says that the oven is lit by a _glow bar_ and to NEVER ATTEMPT TO LIGHT IT WITH A MATCH. For what it's worth!

Consider making a solar oven out of cardboard and heavy duty aluminum foil. I've made 2 of them (Cookit Foldable Family Panel and Minimum Box Oven) and was disappointed not to be able to get temp above 250*. I've now learned that I need an oven with reflectors around the opening to get 350* or 400*, so I'll try that next. I've experimented with tortillas and chapatis in case it is necessary to make flat breads.

Kerosene heaters seem relatively inexpensive and give off good heat without the mess of wood. There are people storing kerosene in the 55gal plastic drums from Coke and Pepsi (outside the house).

If you learn from the archives what is needed in the order of importance and do something each day preparing for a goal of only 1 week, when you accomplish that, the second week will be a breeze. You probably don't eat out, but most families I know eat out so much that they may not even have a stove! If they would cook their own meals, they would have enough money to prepare for 6 mos Y2K.

-- Sylvia (bluebirdms@aol.com), July 12, 1999.

Winter wondering,

Are ya about overwhelmed with ideas yet? :-) So I shall not add much more at this time but for what I did, and I had to do it very economically.

I have food stored for survival for an extended period. This includes rice, oatmeal and pasta; sugars and honey; salt and pepper and spices; oil, shortening, margerine and peanut butter; beans of variety; flour and baking needs; cornmeal; dairy and vitamins. This is the short list of sustainable living (food only, and in that respect water should be included).

Incidentally, we have been living this diet since January. Starting to use "the basics" now is for one thing better for you with less processed foods, and the savings in dollars at the grocery has contributed greatly to being able to buy more. The "practice" has been great, then I don't have to learn how to cook differently under more dire conditions. And I have lost 15 lbs...but anyways...

To some extent I added vegetables and fruit. We can from the garden and keep animals now, but I still accumulate alot of these in limited amounts. So that would be the second step I would recommend. These I went back and added to as time and money allowed. In this sense you may also want to add canned meat like tuna, salmon or roast beef, or buy chicken quarters on sale and can them yourself.

The next step was to add the "extras". Pudding, gravey, baking and cake mixes, chocolate chips, nuts, hard candy and carmels for apples, and such.

Now the way I sorted out how much of what to get, was to start with a menue. Mine is based on two weeks. For example, two times a week I plan for macaroni, for us that means 3 cups of macaroni a week. Then if one of those meals where with tuna and mushroom soup I purchased that. Likewise if I plan kidney beans once a week, I would get a package of chili mix, diced tomatoes, tomatoe sauce. Then with rice I accumulated beef gravey packages. These beef gravey mixes are also excellant for beans without meat to add.

Likewise on the menue plan, I can cook extra navey beans for a supper of ham and beans, saving part of them back and make baked beans for the next day. Same with macaroni, cook extra at the time, conserving fuel, and plan on a macaroni salad the next day. This will save on fuel. Suppers with no left overs, I plan the next day for sandwhiches of peanut butter, eggs or cheese or a canned soup. Using a menu, I was also able to plan for a better proportioned diet of protein, calcuim, vitamins, etc.

Also, I might add, once a week, then is planned as a "frivolous" meal with favorites...for a change of pace. Throw in some cookies or some homemade deserts a couple of times a week, and even just the basics make for enjoyable eating.

Once I figured the conversion of pounds and ounces of the bulk purchases made (such as 50lbs. of rice equals how many meals) into cups and real measures of a receipt forthe staples, I found it alot easier to figure how much I needed to purchase of what; and I think it eliminated over stocking of somethings, and understocking of others, especially with limited spending.

And don't forget sprouts! A skill I have yet to master, but I have my seeds. And medications.

Don't be overwhelmed alone. If you have any questions you post them. We have ALL been there. :-)

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), July 13, 1999.

I want to thank everyone who has posted here-- and realize that more posts may follow (or be posted before I finish writing this one). As I read through the suggestions-- yes, I am still overwhelmed. Here are few of the things I have comments/concerns about:

Sylvia-- yes, I suspected the oven might not light. I need to track down the booklet that came with it or contact the mfgr. to be sure.

Those suggesting the 55 gallon drums for water: There are no soft drink beverage bottlers that I can find within a 2 hour drive . I went to Sams to check because I had seen somewhere on the net that they were selling them fairly reasonably. When I asked they said they sell 55 gal drums with oil in them. (Not even plastic, I think). When I further clarified that I was looking for plastic food grade 55 gallon drums they acted like that was the weirdest thing they had heard of. Nope, they "only sell 'em with oil in 'em." Since reading here that one is supposed to be able to order them, I will give SAMs a call and see what they say.

We have a good well, but the pump is electric. I think it's a fairly deep well so I don't know that a hand pump would work. Don't know that it wouldn't either, necessarily. (There's an awful lot I don't know here...)

Even if I store water, if the temps go below 32 deg. F, won't the water freeze and containers burst? (I've checked into how to drain the pipes, when to drain the pipes, need to check on RV antifreeze, still have some concerns about draining the pipes correctly/water heater/washer/etc.). Storage space is at a premium-- I figured the spring and the creek would be our water storage. Maybe I'm all goofed up on this. But also worried that if there are leaks or bursts, other supplies will get ruined.

Another water storage question: I have seen different advice on the web. Some places say if the container is clean and no bacteria in the water then that's all that you have to do. Other sites say to add chlorine to it when storing. (Have problems drinking chlorinated water. Of course, there are other problems from drinking unsafe water... )

Filters- I will look at the sites mentioned and about building filters. (Have looked at some already also).

Re: Solar ovens: has anyone used them when outdoor temps are below zero deg. F? Do they still work? Also for those making them, I have heard that the reflective emergency blankets work well in them.

Re: the info on this forum: Yes-- it is great info. I have been reading a great deal of it over the past 2 weeks-- and still don't feel I have made much of a dent.

Dog Food: Got one extra bag. at this time. Exp. dates only out into Feb. '00 at this point-- and some bags on shelves with exp only to Oct. '99. But will get more. We need approx. 40 lbs a month. (The sister who lives nearby has 5 dogs-- I suggested she stock some up, too.) Want to try to get stocked on some of their vet meds, too. But it's not always easy. Maybe a little easier than trying to get people meds. But not always.

Food storage (people and dogs): I am worried about bugs and drawing bugs or pest (mice/rats). The suggested preps for oxygen absorbers, vacuum sealing, food grade buckets, etc are probably beyond what I can afford to do. Although I was able to pick up a few 5 gallon buckets from a donut place. They do smell like fruit filling though despite washing them and then having them soak with baking soda and water in them. I guess for as much dry goods/mixes we have just 'accumulated' over time we've been pretty lucky relating to very few bugs.

Mammacares - about the plant books. I had just checked some out from the library as there are a few plants around I was trying to identify. However, most of the 'medicinal' plants carried warnings of toxic or poisonous. Also checked out or requested a variety of books that I've seen mentioned at various websites-- including here. The Library is a great bargain.

Heat/Heaters - someone mentioned kerosene heaters. Aren't those carbon monoxide risks indoors?

Jon J- about the propane heat comment: Yes, our heat is from LP and we have a 250 gallon tank. But the furnace has an electronic ignition and the blowers are powered with electric. You mention "fairly simple lp heaters." Any more info about these? How do they get hooked into the LP supply?

Light - someone mentioned lights are nice but you could just go to bed early. Yes. In fact I thought the very same thing at first. Then I read a few more things and decided that light is something that can be important. Even if it's just to find something (dinner?) in the dark basement. I'm not talking about continuous, all the time light. But a few light sources, might be "a good thing." Yes, flashlights... We use them a lot even now jsut for walking the dogs at night. They burn through batteries. So am considering the windup flashlight. Or possibly solar battery recharger. Also considering the windup or solar radio. It was something I discounted at first. "Don't need no radio-- maybe won't even been any broadcasts." But if there are broadcasts and information it might be useful to have. But a lower priority than some other things.

This has gotten really long. These are all things going around in my head right now. A few things that were mentioned-- well they are things that I have a hard time with at this point. Scary things to me include grain mills, home canning and bugging out. Not necessarily in that order and I'm not meaning to make light of it. Canning I've never done, don't know how, don't have the supplies and am certain I would either blow things up with the pressure cooker or kill everyone off with botulism. And bugging out-- well, we're already pretty remote. I know I've read about being flexible, but we really would have nowhere else to go to. And we do get bitter cold temps here in the winter so bugging out into the wilderness would be a quick way to freeze. The grain mill? Well partly the unfamiliarity-- but perhaps more because it represents (on some level) extended long term disruptions, which I alluded to in my initial posted. But I'm rambling even more here and could probably keep rambling for even longer.

I will keep reading and learning and prioritizing as I wait for my next paycheck (less the bill payments). Thanks everyone-- even in the case of some of the information I'm not quite ready for; the more I encounter it the more accustomed to the idea I will become.

-- winter wondering (winterwondering@yahoo.com), July 13, 1999.

Winter, you've gotten some terrific suggestions....now, don't do what many of us did when we "Got It" - that is, become numb and inert. Can't afford to do that now.

If you can make it your goal to do at least 1 or 2 things EVERY DAY to help you to your preparedness goal, you will be better off, mentally and physically. Don't dwell on what you can't do, get going and do what you CAN do. It's easy to get caught up in reading everything you can get your hands on, but once you've got an outline of what you need to do, you're 'burning daylight' if you spend too much time on 'research'.

Time is of the essence! GBA

-- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), July 13, 1999.

Winter wondering, it sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp of the situation. Emotional preparation is extremely important. I think you're going to be fine. We all have moments of fear, despair, etc., but we keep moving forward. I would just recommend putting your money into things you would use anyway. I've always believed the greatest impact of Y2K will be economic. Others have different opinions. Back when Russia went into economic chaos, I watched carefully to see what the people did. As the value of their currency fell, the people rushed out to put all of their money into food and supplies. Those items don't lose their value.

I like to think of it as a type of savings account. I'm not earning interest on my toilet paper, for instance, but if the price increases (and I'm sure it will) I really have saved money. Toilet paper never goes bad, and I will use it all eventually. So, I'm "saving up for a rainy day," but instead of money, I'm saving up food and supplies. If Y2K ends up being a "bump in the road" so to speak, then I won't have to buy those supplies next year. I can put the money I don't have to spend in savings or (in my case) go on a cruise I've always wanted to take. :-)

If, on the other hand, we have no income coming in for a few months or whatever, I will already have all of the supplies and food on hand to sustain us. I really do believe we will see shortages of items that we import. It may take several months to get all of that straightened out, so I have stocked up on extra coffee, tea, underwear, socks, etc. I also think we will have a shortage of oil, leading to MUCH higher prices at the pump. That, in turn, will cause the price of everything transported using gasoline (like trucks) to increase. Just some things to think about as you prepare.

-- Gayla (privacy@please.com), July 13, 1999.

Winter, you may find some useful info on my website. I have tried to come up with some points/ideas/info that I was not seeing much of on other sites, so it may be helpful to you. Yours in preparation.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 13, 1999.