This is a bit redundant to an active thread about night vision optics, but would appreciate advice about purchase, installation and use of scopes and sights. Rather not say exactly what I have, but rifles are my own interest here.

Price is an object, regrettably, but so is safety and defense, of course.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 08, 1999

Answers

I'm in the market for a mid-priced scope for my AR 15 (A2) as well. If anyone has any suggestions from actual experience, they would be appreciated. I've been reading the forums at ar15.com, and am getting very close to making a decision.

-- Bob (bob@bob.bob), July 08, 1999.

Look into the new "red dot" scopes. You can find your target quickly and accurately. They sell for under $300.00 I bought four Leupold red dots after seeing them in action, nothing on the market is anywhere near as fast at "getting the first shot off"

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), July 08, 1999.

Greetings Big Dog!

My personal choices pertaining to optics for use on firearms vary with the type of weapon being used.If your're using a quality made .22,such as the 10/22 Ruger,try a Simmons 8-point 3-9x40 with see-thru scope mounts so you still have the advantage of using open sights.This scope costs $49.99 and with practice,you'll be amazed at the accuracy acheived!

I use alot of Simmons scopes on my hunting rifles as well as target.Never had any problems and they're easy on the wallet! For instance,for hunting trophy class deer I utilize a Ruger Mark11 .300 magnum that's been customized with a trigger kit,glass-bedded,and a Boss system on the barrel.I out-fitted this rifle with a Simmons Atec 2.8-10x44 scope.It handles the recoil and shoots an extremely tight group in the hands of a shooter.Have taken whitetails at 450 and 580 yds.

For all around plinking and small game hunting though,you will be pleased with the 8-point.Hope this helps.

-- Ex-Marine (Digging In@Home.com), July 08, 1999.

Price is an object. Hmmm. Unfortunatly, optics is one of those areas where it pays off to get the best. And the best almost always costs.

I hear that the Tasco sniper scope is a good value for the money. Since your talking about rifles I assume you mean to reach out and touch someone. Wise choice.

However, if you expect to have to mix it up, the red dot scopes are very fast in target aquisition. I have used the Armson Occluded Eye Gunsight, which is an early dot sight. It is one rugged peice of equipment and goes for about $250. Brownells carries a selection of them.

My choice for all around use? A reliable .308 semi-auto (HK 91, M1A, FN-FAL) with a good ghost ring sight and very good 3x9-50 scope mounted on a look through mount. This is not a pure sniper but will work at range rather well. Close in the only liability would be it's size which might make it difficult to maneuver in a confined environment.

If you have to get the cheaper mid range scopes you can trade off versatility for reliability by avoiding the variable power scopes. Fewer moving parts means less to break. (No offense Ex-Marine. And the inexpesive variables are not going to be bothered by the recoil from a .22 so your advice is still valid.)

Water proof/fog proof is important. Rubber armor seems to help with scopes and binoc's toughness. I have to question clamping metal scope rings on to rubber though. Does that allow movement off of zero?

Try purchasing "Ultimate Sniper" by Maj. John Plaster. The book has alot of technical tips. The information would help you pick out a scope. Just remember that the US Gov can afford to issue better scope than you can.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), July 08, 1999.

Some scopes will draw enough light to be useful at dusk and even a little later. The key points are the glass; look into the exit end and see if it reflects. If not, it's a better quality lense. It should be large... the bigger the better. 44mm or larger. Then, set it on medium power(5-6). The idea is to make it the size of you iris (5.5, I think). This will give you the equivalant of a cheap night scope during low light.

Gunner

-- Gunner (tailgunner@hotmail.com), July 08, 1999.

Your question mentioned night vision. I suggest ITT made stuff. With night vision, one mostly gets what one pays for. I suggest at least a US !! second generation night vision device. A US third generation would be MUCH better. Go to the ITT web site. READ ABOUT THE INTENSIFIER TUBES that are the heart of a night vision device. You will then understand a lot more about the capability of what you are buying. I've found www.laser-king.com a good place. Nice articles on "camo" suits there for you too! Keep in mind that Russian stuff that says third generation is about US second generation. Expect to pay around a grand for a top quality US second generation device; two to five grand for a top notch US third gen.

Before buying, THINK TACTICS!!! On an earlier post, I mentioned using a good third gen. night vision device and a .22 magnum to take out a group of looters via head shots in the dark; low muzzle blast and flash from between 100 - 200 yards seems like a nice tactic!

The best, in my opinion are goggles. Use a laser sight on your rifle; you'll see the beam at night with your goggles. Goggles let you walk aroung in the dark with your hands free. Walking around looking through your rifle scope, holding your loaded rifle at your shoulder will make you wish you had bought goggles. One fall -- not knowing if you got crud in your barrel is all it will take. If you get magnification, all you need is three power for a night vision rig.

I think the total scenario(s) you envision should be the driving factor in what kind of set up you get. One more important thing!!! Get a GOOD 600-800 meter/yard laser range finder!!! Essential in day or night shooting when at the outer reaches of one's chosen projectile. Speaking of projectiles -- remember that ANY bullet -- regardless of caliber -- having the same ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity will have the EXACT SAME trajectory and wind drift! That's why 70 - 80 grain bullets for a .223 are effective at long (600+) ranges for proficient shooters using good rifles with the proper rifling twist (1 in 7" in .223). The book mentioned above is a good one. Many others are also helpfull. Keep in mind AGAIN your likely scenarios, strategies and tactics when deciding what to buy.

One more thing. Actually PRACTICE at long ranges UNDER DIFFERENT WEATHER CONDITIONS -- ESPECIALLY DIFFERENT WIND VELOCITIES -- when depending on your long range skills. Too much more to mention. Get some good books. They will inform you of the "complexities".

I know top quality cost a lot -- buy a good US third gen night vision device will allow strategies and tactics that can save you a lot in other areas (as well as allow MORE options for survival).

Remember...one shot...one kill...

Lurking,

Killer

-- Killer (Sniper@Arms.org), July 08, 1999.

Just gotta throw my 1/50 of a $ in here.

I am an advocate of single power scopes. No moving parts. Simpler mehcnism.

I know this will probably engender as much disagreement as other "choice" topics.

My logic is the age old "the simpler the more reliable".

I like reliable. I can live with the correct power scope in single power.

I have also had pretty good service from the cheaper varieties. Obviously not the same clarity.

-Greybear

-- Got Ziess?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 08, 1999.

Tho this is under discussion, can we zero in (no pun intended) on non-night vision scopes that offer some low-light help. Getting specific on models, prices, reliability, etc? Big help to me.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 08, 1999.

BD,

If you don't already have one, get a Cabella's catalog 800.237.4444 or Redhead / Bass Pro Shop 800.basspro then we can have a common page to look at. Let me know when they get there and we'll talk.

-Greybear, who trys to end a sentence with a prepostition any time the opportunity is available to get at.

-- Got grammar Books?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 09, 1999.

I like the high end single power scopes, but like alot of you I don't have $800+ to spend on a scope(or a gun). If you have a sporting goods/ gun store you trust check out the used scopes. I picked up a nice 4X burris for the same as a low end scope. I've seen nice used Unertal scopes for around $300-350 for the long range crowd. The key is buying from a store you trust. If I you have a problem back it goes. As for low end vs. high end. I'll never go hunting with a low end scope again.

-- Greenthumb G.I. (greenthumb@i.g.i.), July 09, 1999.

(Greybear -- catalogs on way but may take a week or two).

I assume single power means "not adjustable"? What are the trade-offs? Would also appreciate opinion on the thought of goggles plus laser. I had thought of this before this thread and been argued out of it on the basis that it is harder to manage the gun itself this way at night.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 09, 1999.

Cabello's and (if you've got a friend or relative in law enforcement) Gall's both carry night vision scopes. Gall's carries the latest ITT- made Gen3 stuff. Pricey but I don't think better is available. The stuff Uncle had me using wasn't as good as some of the current ITT stuff is, and it's only been four or five years.

If the ITT stuff is our of reach, maybe some of the items in the Cabello's catalog will fit the bill. I'm currently thinking real hard about why I don't need a set of their Night Owl binoculars for use on guard duty. Probably won't be able to come up with a good reason and will be ordering a set before fall.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), July 10, 1999.

Optics fall into the catagory "you get what you pay for". While small bore rifles can effectively be matched with lower priced scopes, if you want something that will take the abuse of higher power rifles spend the extra money and get the better stuff. I have every one of my high power guns outfitted with Leupold scopes, most of which I purchased used at gun shows. Leupolds carry an unconditional lifetime warranty. I've even known guys who bought broken scopes for as little as $10. and sent them in and they were fixed! As far as my tactical weapons, two have red dot sights. My AR15 has a C-More scout to go with the Sure-Fire lighting system. My Ruger PC-9 has a Pro-Point Tactical. My HK 91 clone has the lone Weaver a 4-16 x 40 variable in matte finish. It came on the AR15 when I bought it a few months back. For those looking for an AR15 right now better hang onto your wallet, prices have shot up over the last couple of months. Everyone has their own opinion....I like Colt. Pre-ban guns are starting at $1000 for a basic rifle...to over $2500 for the top line guns with lots of extras. Post-ban Colts are starting at $800. and top out at $1200. Bushmasters run just under Colts. Armalites are in the same neighborhood. The Olympic Arms guns are less money, but I haven't had any luck with the 3 I have had over the years. Our local county sheriff's ordered 75 guns from Olympic and ended up sending them all back within 3 months due to numerious failures. AR15.com is a great sight to see where the market is going. Be sure that you spend the time to learn about your new weapon, find what it likes to "eat" and buy alot of it. I feel and many I've talked to beleive 5000 rounds is the bare minimum to have on hand. Shop around....learn how to reload...go in with some friends and buy in bulk. Good luck. take care ben

-- ben (bent@premier1.net), July 13, 1999.

I had narrowed down my choices for a scope, but while at the range Sunday, a guy let me try his Aimpoint red dot sight. I had heard about them, but when I heard they do not provide magnification, I immediately discarded the possibility. you have to try one of these to appreciate it! The concept is, that you use it with BOTH eyes open...your right (normal sighting eye) looks through the rather large diameter Aimpoint, while your left looks directly at the target. Through a little optical trick, it's like looking straight at a target naturally, with a small red dot superimposed on it at the point of aim! Talk about easy and fast target aquisition!

While the thought of no magnififcation bothered me at first, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that any defensive use of a rifle was most likely to be from 100 yards or less in my suburban enviroment, and this is GREAT out to 100 yards. Check out this descroption from aimpoint, and be sure to click through to the link to see some REAL interesting graphics on different sighting sytems.

The cheapest place I have seen them, is at SWLA, at around $250.00 + whatever mounting hardware you need for your particulat weapon. I also looked a a Tasco (yeah, I know...ugh!) at Bass Pro Shop yeasterday for under $100.00, but the battery like is shorter, and the dot is a bit fuzzy. However, if money were the primary factor, I wouldn't have hesitated buying the Tasco.

Open sights are hard to aim quickly or while adjusting position and because of their crudeness cannot deliver precision accuracy. Sights of this type also present problems when adjusting for changes in ammunition, bullet weight, etc.

While they do offer precision accuracy, telescopic sights are slow, fragile and separate the shooter from the surroundings, making them hard to use in thick terrain. Magnification forces the Shooter to adjust firearm position to ensure correct eye-to-sight distance.

Laser sights are easily distorted. Refraction and reflection by environmental factors such as rain and fog can make laser sights virtually useless. Safety regulations imposed by the U. S. FDA do not allow for laser light brightness to be visible with the naked eye in anything but near darkness conditions.

Red dot sighting technology offers marksmen and hunters alike numerous advantages.

By superimposing the red dot on the target, the shooter is mentally feed from his position behind the firearm. The physical adjustments a shooter must make with his body and his firearm, adjustments which require precious time and energy, become second nature with a red dot sighted system. Red dot sighting systems drastically reduce target acquisition time, which also speeds recovery in situations where follow-up shots may be necessary. New shooters and shooters with poor eye sight have the luxury of seeing a target within the context of a full-view perspective, and every shooter will appreciate the confidence of knowing that he will hit whatever is under the red dot.

In addition to delivering extreme durability these systems have been military tested to be waterproof and are 100% parallax free.

Aimpoint

-- Bob (bob@bob.bob), July 13, 1999.

BD, As in all optics, light gathering ability is the thing that separates the cheap from the ultra-expensive. I'm an amateur in these things, but my longtime understanding is that light gathering ability will be based primarily on two things, the width of the front lens and the quality of the lens coatings.

In early times the lens coating was a key consideration because it reduced the necessary size of the lenses and therefore reduced weight which is often a key consideration in both military and sporting applications of binoculars, telescopes and rifle scopes. It is my assumption that Zeiss, Nikon and others no longer gain their advantages from their coatings, but I could be wrong. ie, I assume that technology has pretty much evened the playing field on coating technology.

I would expect that the quality of workmanship would have to be increased with the power of the rifle to maintain accuracy. Since a 30-06 has a violent bell-ringing recoil, I'd expect it might damage scopes which might work fine in a nice .22 long rifle chambered gun. A scope is of little value if you have to recalibrate it after every five rounds.

The distance of your target will naturally play a role in the quality of your scope. The farther the target, the less light will be reflected from the target to the scope, so you'll need to have a better scope to gather sufficient light.

Scopes are like celestial observatories, the purpose of those multi- million dollar mirrors is to gather light, not to magnify.

I've got a book somewhere called "The Accurate Rifle." If I can find it, I'll pass along any scope recommendations it makes.

By the way, if you're looking at long targets, then some kind of barrel stabilizing rest is very important. Bipod, sandbag, something like that.

There are also scopes that have internal range guages, so if you're shooting on a known field of fire, you can see different ranges on the vertical axis of the cross-hairs.

-- Puddintame (achillesg@hotmail.com), July 13, 1999.

Greybear --- Cabela's catalog in hand. Ready to continue.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 19, 1999.

BD,

You can only get so much help from a traditional scope in low light. Limitations are imposed by the amount of light available and the optical ability of the scope to transmit available light to your eye. Advances in design and coatings in recent years have been such that the giant objective lenses usually considered effective at night are unnecessary in many cases nowadays. What others have said about 'getting what you pay for' is true in this case as well- for serious use I would consider Leupold or Bausch & Lomb as a minimum level of quality. Pentax and Nikon make some really good optics for a bit less money. You might still find some closeouts on Redfields at a good price- look around. If you have a bookstore nearby with a good magazine rack, pick up a copy of _Shotgun News_ or _Gunlist_- they'll list specials from various outlets and other deals on various things you might need. The super Wal-Marts in my area carry these magazines.

I don't mind using good variable scopes, though any optical instrument may have trouble over time. I have fallen off and out of trees, pickup trucks and down hillsides and killed scopes in the process. Higher quality scopes will withstand more abuse as a rule, but function-affecting damage is possible with any of them. I have a couple of 20- 25 year old Weaver variables (2-7X on a Ruger M77/6mm Rem and a 1 1/2-4 1/2 on a Marlin 336/.30-30 Win) that are still doing well in spite of years of use. Those were mid-priced scopes in their day, about equivalent to Nikon/Pentax today.

The best thing I can suggest for low-light scopes is choosing an optional heavy crosshair. Leupold offers one in many models. You might think about having a 4-6 minute dot installed by one of the aftermarket firms who specialize in such modifications also. Be aware that large dots or heavier crosshairs will somewhat impair long- range precision as far as the individual optic is concerned (everything is a tradeoff after all). And be careful not to 'over power' your optics. Many people make this mistake, and it can be expensive. More magnification may not necessarily help.

Also consider tritium inserts for your iron sights. Companies like Meprolight, Trijicon and Innovative Weaponry Inc. make available replacement sights for many models of rifles, pistols and shotguns. They will glow for about ten years and require no batteries.

Good luck,

LPL

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), July 19, 1999.