Goats and how to care for them

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As long as we have conventional Vet assistance available there is little problem with needed drugs. Somewhere out there is a body of knowledge about dealing with domestic animals when conventional drugs are not available.

I'm specifically interested in treating goats. How do you worm them? What about common deseases? etc.

Any help from with non-conventional methods would be greatly appreciated, especially a book on the subjet.

TIA

-Greybear

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 06, 1999

Answers

I have seen references to various plants being effective as wormers in guides to American herbals... I'll get back to this as soon as I have a chance to look some of that up (like when I get the books unpacked??

I just bought 2 African Pygmies this week end. They are being bred, I'll pick them up in about a month.

What kind of goats do you have?

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 06, 1999.


Jon,

We are sadly sans goats at the moment but will be getting what is called Spanish goats here in Texas. I'm not conversant enough with goat breeds to know if this is a true breed or just a general line of cross breeds. They seem to be the toughest breed around in this area. I'm looking at about 40 head initially to clear some underbrush. When the land is cleared we'll reduce the herd to about 10-15 to maintain a meat and entertainment stock.

My first and largest problem is finding a jenny to put with the goats since we have a real coyote and bobcat problem. I had thought about dogs a guards but have reconsidered and am going to get a donkey since they won't require "store bought" food. Thoughts on the donkey are welcome.

-Greybear

-- Got salt?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 06, 1999.


Hi Greybear:

We've kept goats for 15 years, many different breeds, and have "gone organic" for a portion of that time.

Most useful in terms of keeping stock healthy is this: start with healthy stock. If your does are prone to huge, productive udders, they're also prone to mastitis. If your critters are fat, they'll suffer from enterotoxemia. If you've kept goats alive in the past thru pneumonias and pregnancy toxemia by medications -- well, then you've perpetuated a weakness in your lines by allowing animals that "would have died without treatment" to procreate.

Answer to that: get rid of animals, right now, that are hyper-types -- the heavy producers who need extra grain, that suffer foot problems, that routinely need massive deworming support, the ones that need to be dosed with antibiotics for ailments, etc etc. Look for average animals that maintain their health with ease. Interestingly enough, these are the animals most of us by-pass when seeking livestock....their coloration is plain, udders are well-supported but not very big, they frequently only have a single kid (but raise it without trouble), and they aren't too friendly (because they haven't been handled for frequent treatments). Basically, you're looking for animals that will do well without a lot of additional inputs.

Vaccinate everybody NOW for common ailments -- CD/T, blackleg (if its in your area), vibriosis, etc etc.

Next, cut down your stock so that they fit your ability to keep them -- if you have ten goats on an acre, you're probably pushing your capacity to keep them free from disease. Five goats on five acres, however, will probably never need to be dewormed -- they have fewer opportunities to pick up the parasites and become reinfected. If you are able to replicate the "natural" environment of wild goats -- plenty of fresh browse (young trees, forest-edge stuff), fresh water, and rocky stands to climb upon (helps with foot development), you'll prevent most health problems over time.

Finally, to simplify your kidding period, keep the buck separate from the herd from July through November. Turn him back with the girls in November, and you'll start seeing babies in the warmer spring weather of April/May. However, if you want milk all year around, leave the buck with the girls, and take the kids as they arrive....which means having a kidding shed ready for those born during the worst possible weather in the winter (a goat preference, of course). BTW, we have NEVER "dipped navels", and we have NEVER had ANY illness result from it....and the goats were among sheep, horses, chickens and pigs.

In terms of treating illnesses that may occur post y2k, start now to acquire erythromycin, pen-G, and tetracycline -- as well as a copy of the Merck Manual and syringes. These antibios will handle most common illnesses. (I also plan to keep two extra bottles of cattle Ivomec on hand in the event of any serious worm problems.)

Organic treatments for any contagious illness: garlic! Mash a head to a liquid (a blender would be a big help), add some oil (maybe a 1/4 cup) to prevent burning of tissues, and force feed (via a big syringe) to sick animals. You can add powdered vitamins, ground carrots or sweet potatos (Vit A), liquified green peppers or tomatos (Vit C) to the mash/oil for better taste and greater health benefits. Give twice daily, and prepare for the critters to run away when they see you coming. The garlic will be obvious on the goat's breath and in their milk. Better to not use milk from sick animals, anyway.

For deworming: a tablespoon of diatomaceous earth (DE) in the garlic/oil combo above. Lacking DE, old timers relied on plain pumpkin seeds (pepitas), fed alone over several days -- these are claimed to eliminate tapeworms, too.

Comments?

Anita E.

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), July 06, 1999.


There is a goat/sheep magazine published out of San Angelo, TX - they probably have a web site. The "Boer" goat breed is very meaty I believe - I think they are expensive. Worms are a problem I have heard; and other parasites. We use Basic H by Shaklee to worm our cattle - also dogs and chickens. Use one oz. per 10 gallons of drinking water. Make sure they drink it for a couple of days - i.e. no other water source available. Several vets swear that it doesn't work - but I paid for 6 different fecal samples, before and after, and there were the usual worms before, but not after. I believe that Basic H is a soybean derivitive(sp?) product - I don't think there is any way it would hurt the goats, so you could try it. I can verify that cattle wormers are VERY expensive if you have more than a couple of head.Greybear, your local FFA teacher, or ag teacher at community college would probably direct you to that magazine.

-- jeanne (jeanne@hurry.now), July 06, 1999.

P.S. to my previous (just read your addendum!): Spanish goats are ideal for your area -- and they are truly hardy, "survivor"-types. They are crossbreds from numerous backgrounds, but tend to be a "meat type" with low (but rich) milk production. Pick out a couple does with larger teats, and pen them up...make pets out of them, and they can be your milkers.

Sorry to hear that you won't consider the dog option -- but recognise that a jenny would be able to live on-the-land. Just remember that a jenny won't differentiate between your household pet dog and a coyote, and both will get the same treatment!

Anita E.

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), July 06, 1999.



Anita,

This is *exactly* the kind of stuff I was looking for. Keep those thoughts rolling in. Thanks MUCHO.

I had thought about the garlic but not the DE.

You make excellent points about the "weak" animals. We've done the same thing with rabbits. Two litters with problems and the doe gets to visit the freezer.

One other question. I've read that poision ivy does not hurt animals. I have a small amount of poision ivy on my property and hope the goats can clear it out. Potential problems?

-Greybear

-- Got Calimine?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 06, 1999.


Poison ivy: We used to have it here, too. Goats ate it. Also ate the "poison" poke plants, the "weedy" multiflora rose, the "deadly" false parsley, the "toxic" wild black cherry, and the "acidic" oak acorns. Which isn't to say that a goat can eat anything safely -- but since the bunch you're getting is well-adapted to your area, they've already got the survival skills "built in". Besides, goats tend to just "take a bite" or two from any individual plant at a feeding, so they limit their own exposures to potentially toxic substances. Over time, they'll go back to the same plants and clear them from an area.

Anita E.

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), July 06, 1999.


BEWARE:

If your goats eat the poison ivy, and then you get to be brushed by their faces, YOU TOO WILL HAVE POISON IVY!!

Also, if you have someone who is DEADLY-ALERGIC to poison ivy (this person develops the symptoms if anyone in the larger neighborhood (within a couple miles) is burning theirs off), they may develop the symptoms from the milk.

c

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), July 06, 1999.


Excellent point, Chuck. I hadn't thought through the milk connection but that makes pretty good sense.

Anita's point about the seperate goats for milk is good. We have friends who keep a couple of Alpine goats up in a barn lot just for milk. The Alpine seems to make milk that is a lot better flavor and by strictly controlling what they eat the milk flavor is improved even more.

-Greybear

--Got Cheese? (or Goat Cheese? ....atsa Gooda.....)

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 06, 1999.


Anita:

I'm on 2 acres of partly to mostly wooded, lots of understory, lots of nettles and "poke", tall trees are mostly black locust with mulberries and who knows what else (just moved in a month ago). No oaks, unfortunatly.

How many 50lb to 60lb goats do you think this would support? Along, of course, with some of the little pigs discussed on another thread.

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 06, 1999.



P.S. Greybear: We have a jenny that we keep with our cattle for predator purposes - actually for neighbor's dogs that are much more of a possible threat than coyotes. The cows will keep the coyotes away from their calves, but a pack of "domestic" dogs can run your cattle through the barbed wire fence in a flash. The jenny has been no trouble at all; she will treat all "dog-like" animals the same: she will position herself to be in front of the predator and act like she is running away...then WHAMO she will kick their teeth out if she lands the punch just right. Other than the Basic H along with the cattle, she has required no maintenance at all.

-- jeanne (jeanne@hurry.now), July 06, 1999.

--jeanne: --- What is a Jenny?

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), July 06, 1999.

Hmmm...two acres, semi-forested, locust (produces a sweet-flavored pod in abundance annually, but also has those nasty thorns), and mulberry (yummy). If goats have run of this ground, AND it is solidly fenced, I'd start with 10 crossbred goats (2 bucks, 8 does, unrelated) -- and come next spring reduce that to the VERY BEST (read this as: animals that did well by keeping weight up and raising babies without help) 3 does and one buck. This smaller number wouldn't decimate the flora, but would have enough browze to keep healthy and raise a passel of babies every year without too much additional feed.

Of course, this assumes serious difficulties post y2k and a desire to avoid high expense for feed and housing for the animals. If it isn't a bad situation, you could probably do quite nicely with a 7-8 animal flock, plus annual babies. If everything goes on as it has in the past, you could easily run the flock up to 20-head, but then you'll need to deworm every 6-weeks to 2 months or so, and put in hay and grain for winter.

Anita E.

-- Anita Evangelista (ale@townsqr.com), July 06, 1999.


I thought I would add my 2 cents worth about goats.

I have Nubian goats and have found that a lot of the "normal" tendencies of purebred dairy goats have been bred out of this breed here in Iowa. I have 2 that just had babies that I bought as milking does last year, one we were able to convince to be a mommy and let her babies feed (they got quite good at eating on the run!) and the other totally rejected her little doe (which is now in my library in a box for a few days until I move her back to the barn). A cross-bred that I bought as a bottle baby is the best mom I have - she even helps take care of the babies from the milker that kept her babies. We will be selling the doe that rejected her baby after I am done milking her. I am hoping the the 3 additional purebreds that I will be breeding this year will be good mothers. Since I don't have the time to bottle feed the babies, it is easier to leave them on the mothers. You can milk the mothers as normal for yourself - you just won't get as much until you wean the babies. The mother will produce what is demanded from her.

Another problem is that the teats have been bred to fit a milking machine (yes they do exist for goats), which means they are smaller than normal. With my small hands, I have some problems with milking and my husband just can't do it.

The goats I bought as full-grown dairy goats don't forage as well for themselves as the younger goats and my cross-bred do, so it is hard to keep enough weight on them. I tossed the younger goats out into the pasture after they had a few days to settle in to their new surroundings and they had spend the days out in a pen that adjoins the pasture so they could meet everyone. We turned the mommies and babies out to pasture after the babies kept escaping and were going to "visit" everyone themselves.

Our goats are in with the sheep and we run my Australian Shepherd in with the sheep and goats at night to keep the coyotes away. Our aussie was the surrogate "mommy" to our first set of bottle lambs and as grown sheep they still press their faces up to the fence to her pen for her to clean their faces. She has tried to clean the faces of the goats, but they just didn't appreciate it.

I would also stock up on Corid for coccydiosis (get it from your vet). If the goats get stressed, they may get this. The main sympton is diarrhea, which unfortunately, by the time that shows up the disease is serious and they can die from it. They will have to be dosed for 21 days to get rid of it. This can affect their growth, if they are younger as well. There again, we found that the cross-bred was sturdier and shook it off faster, but the nubians had a tough time and the does that were only about 4 mos old at the time are definitely stunted in their growth.

Don't get me wrong. I love my nubians, but when I had them about 10 years ago they were a hardier bunch. I am just trying to bred some of that hardiness back into mine.

We put to buck in with the does at the end of July for early babies. One of the reasons being that we usually end up with some bottle lambs (we lamb in Feb) and goat milk is cheaper than lamb replacer. Also I want continuous milk beginning next year so I will watch who get bred when so we don't run short. I hope to have 6 bred does this fall and 5 more to add in for the next year (if some of these grow enough I will bred them late this year). I already have 3 bucks which should keep the in-breeding to a minimum. This is a lot more than we need for our family, but my thought is the babies in the little town near us may need the milk as well. It should be a good barter item.

Sorry this got to be so long, but I thought some of my experiences might be useful.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), July 06, 1999.


Jenny - short for Jennet, the correct name for a female donkey. Males are called Jacks

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 06, 1999.


Anita:

Thanks for the tips. I'm planning for "bad", if things are very mild and we find goats too much trouble, we'll sell them off or put them in the freezer.

I had wondered about all the advice that kids "must" be removed from their mothers and bottle fed. Don't have the time, don't need all that much milk. I think I see now that the advice was aimed more at a higher volume dairy operation, not a homestead.

Any books you could recommend on making goats cheese, anyone?

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 06, 1999.


I would like to add a note about the toxic plants mentioned above. Goats given plenty of room to roam will nibble on plants that are posionous to them and move on. However, goats kept in smaller confinement areas or tyed out will eat enough to cause them harm.

Plants to add to list as toxic to goats: Rhododendrun and azaleas.

Some good "goaty" links:

Everything You Ever Wanted to Know a Know about Goats. Indeed they mean that, it may be the only link you need! Many great links, e-mail lists, medications/supply catalog links, publications on and off line and much more.

Caprine Supply ComanyThey offer all manner of goats supplies. I have been told they have a book titled "Goats 101" that is a must read and very indepth about diseases and care.

Alpine HausThis site offers goats and other livestock/homesteading type books. Also a very good "how to" book about goats online.

Goat Community Web Ring. Very extensive, many many pages and hours of surfing here.

Goats in the UK. Goats from the other side of the pond. Check out the section on using goats as work animals for packing and pulling sleds or carts.

Goat Kingdom. From "duh goat man". This site is has the most comprehensive listing of breeders in all regions...I found my goats on this site.

The Goat Market. Good classified ad section as I recall. Also assistance/advice on selling goat related products.

Fias Co. Farm. This web page stood out to me as being a very nice place for even us "old goats" to learn a thing or two. Receipt for white wash and may tips on everything from cheese culture to udder dips.

Jon, don't get me started on links, I just got too many of them! :-)

Cheese Makers Web RingThis links off the site mentioned above, Fias Co. Farm, at present very small with 6 pages, but a good one to book mark and check back with.

County Life Online Village. This is the site for everything you wanted to know about cheese and finally found someone to ask! A forum devoted entirely to dairy processing on the small scale. This page also leads you to similar forum on wild foods, breadmaking and much more.

The Old Timers Page. From Walton's Feed offers how to on a variety of skills.

David B. Fankhauser. Now this fellow knows his cheese. Great receipes and alot of cultural information. The "science" of cheese!

New England Cheesemaking Supply. Now after you have read all the above information, here is a good place to go to get the cultures, wax, cheese cloth and other necessities for making cheese. Decent prices from what I have seen.

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), July 07, 1999.


Hello all,

I appreciate the info provided above... just wanted to add a few things I have learned recently:

Re: diatomacious (sp) earth: do not use the "pool filter" type - I think because of sharp points which make it like powdered glass. I called the lady who runs White Egret Farms in Texas, fully organic and she feeds a small amount of FOOD GRADE d.e. in daily grain rations. She also strongly suggested de-worming initially with ivermectin - actually cheap per dose ($1.00 to 1.50) because it is extremely effective and then use d.e. as maintenance.

Keep lots of baking soda on hand as well as vegetable oil and a big syringe. Recently my young doe got an extra couple of cups of grain and got "grain overload". I learned that you should always keep free choice baking soda available to goats and they will eat varying amounts as they need to counter acid conditions in their digestive systems. The oil was given by oral syringing ("drenching") initially to try to help move the mass of fermenting grain through - vet said it was not the best but works in an emergency. Please don't rely on this info - talk to your vet or search for info... the free choice baking soda should be started today however. They had me give a couple tablespoons of baking soda in 1 cup of water 2 x daily until symptoms subsided. Sorry to ramble but these are really cheap precautions to take for a horrible, painful "disease" which can kill.

Also, vaccinate, vaccinate, vaccinate - I had just received my clostridium vaccine the day before - and discovered that this little doe had NOT been vaccinated properly by the seller - assume the goat you bought was not vaccinated properly - cheap prevention.

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), July 07, 1999.


Grey Bear - I have had goats for 10 years. Tried them all and finally settled on Nubian/Boar cross. My Half Boar buck has topped out at 300# at 2 yrs. old and has a very gentle personality!

I have used herbs for my goats( up to 25 at one time) and have had no problems with their health or birthing. I use a book entitled HERBAL HANDBOOK FOR FARM AND STABLE BY Juliette de Bairacli Levy published by Rodale Press. Also get lots of personal information and supplies from Hoegger Caprine . These folks have been raising goats since 1935 and use herbal preps exclusively. They are very generous with help and information. Call 1-800-221-4628 for their catalog. Mrs. H. usually answers the phone in the kitchen! Great help and products.

Hope this helps and you will surely have fun with your friends - goats are very sociable animals and very smart

-- Goat Lady (MRealty@aol.com), July 08, 1999.


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