If you wake up on Jan. 1 with no heat in the house, how soon would you drain your water pipes? This is one of my most worrisome problems.

-- Jo Ann (MaJo@Michiana.com), July 03, 1999

Answers

Jo Ann,

not sure about you sweetie but the first thing i do every morning is drain my pipes. i can promise you jan. 1 will be no different.

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), July 03, 1999.

Why wouldn't there be heat in your house? Will you forget to pay you utilities?

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), July 03, 1999.

responses by assemblage of nincompoops

-- under (swamp@rock.ooze), July 03, 1999.

Jo Ann, if both heat and water were unavailable, I think that would be an automatic reason to drain the pipes immediately if ambient temperatures outside drop below freezing. I am assuming that running water helps keep pipes open. I bought a wood stove as much to try to keep the pipes from freezing as to keep my family warm.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), July 03, 1999.

My approach has always been to do it before they freeze. It is amazing how long that takes to happen.

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), July 03, 1999.

To any helpful non-nimcompoops, perhaps I should've mentioned that I have a well run by electricity. No power, no water. One dreads going to all the trouble of draining everything, lest, by a miracle, the power returns within 24 hours.

-- Jo Ann (MaJo@Michiana.com), July 03, 1999.

Jo Ann:

If outdoor ambient is below freezing and indoor temperature falls to fourty five degrees (F), then drain the pipes before they freeze.

If your house has pipes running through a crawl space and they are freeze protected by heat tape, then you must drain the pipes before those areas fall below freezing (32 F) if power to the heat tape is lost.

Here is a tip:

Typical domestic water supply lines are either 1/2 or 3/4 inch copper.

Go to an automotive parts store and buy a six foot piece of 5/8 and 3/4 inch heater hose and a dozen hose clamps. These can be used in the future to make emergencey repairs in the event a plumber or mechanic is not available to do it for you, and they will easily hold the fifty psi. working pressure of a well system.

Also buy or have on hand a tubing cutter and a hacksaw. Usually when a pipe freezes, you can cut out a six inch section that is cracked open and replace just that. You do not have to run an entire new pipe to effect an emergency repair.

Finally, if indoor temperatures are going to fall below freezing, you must put antifreeze, about two cups, in the toilet bowl after the tank is emptied, in all the sink traps and in all the floor traps.

If you are a tree hugger or are afraid of the wrath of the EPA, use vodka.

For anyone owning a commercial business, you had better think how you are going to drain the fire sprinkler system. The answer is you can't unless you remove all the sprinkler heads or figure some way to evacuate the system with vacuum pumps before the space temps cool down.

I don't know about the whole country, but a three day power loss in the northeast in freezing weather will ruin a lot of real estate, especially commercial.

There won't be enough solder and acetylene to repair all the damage.

Metal working materials could become worth their weight in gold.

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@erols.com), July 03, 1999.

Jo Ann ; Depending upon if you have city water that you are paying for,or a well w/ elecrtic pump. Just keep the tap open just a little,so a very small drip comes out the faucet. Remember running water doesn't freeze.

-- Furie (furieart@dnet.net), July 03, 1999.

Jo Ann

I lived in South Dakota for a couple of winters in a trailer where the pipes wanted to freeze every time it got below 15 to 20 below zero. A couple to times it did even with electricity and heat tape. What you do is if you have water keep it running slowly. Make sure your cabinets are open to the warmer air. If they do freeze, make sure you open your spigots wide. As your house warms up the water will melt and expand this is what causes the pipes to break. If you keep the spigots open the water will have a place to go.

Deb

-- Debra (debrar_@hotmail.com), July 03, 1999.

Forgive me Tom B but your all wet here.

You should never be forced to result to using antifreeze in your indoor plumbing fixtures. ESPECIALLY if you have pets that may get just as thirsty as you and resort to drinking from the bowl, or lapping at drops in the sink. Pets and antifreeze don't mix Tom. Simply prepare a strong mixture of salt and water, (if you cannot empty the sink traps) and pour about 1 cup into each sink. Salt water won't freeze unless it's so cold that you shouldn't be in the house anyway! The same with the toilet, unless of course you happen to be French #:}`. Anyway find the low point drain, and drain the potable water plumbing system. If you don't know if you have one or where it is, I suggest your take some time in July to give it your best shot. If it is important to you. Also locate the drain on your hot water tank ahead of time in case you need to hook up the garden hose and drain it. It should remain undamaged for a number of days or longer, depending on the temperature and whether or not you have an insulating blanket around (recommended even if only cardboard wrap at the last minute) Close all airways that expose your pipes to outside temps ie foundation vents crawl space entrances etc.. Oops the time has come for me to sign off, but Tom, rest assured the sprinkler fitters I know would never forget to install the drain down spigot!! It's the law.

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), July 04, 1999.

Michael:

Thanks for the reminder about the water heater.

As for trap protection, simply confirm what I wrote with anyone that has to winterize a beach property or other unoccupied property in the winter.

Hopefully Jo Ann has a wood stove and wood.

As for commercial sprinkler systems, they are not installed to grade as in a waste plumbing system, number one, and there is no code in this county (Fairfax, VA) to make them drain. They are built to be filled and enabled, period.

Number two, in occupied spaces with finished or drop ceilings, each head is at the bottom of a short (usually 18 inches) verticle leg.

You have to remove the head to drain each drop.

I am a building engineer in a 140,000 sq.ft. office building. The minimum coverage for sprinkler heads is one per 200 sq,ft., but in practice is takes more than that. We estimate 1,000 heads in this building in occupied spaces, all at the end of a vertical drop, and a third of them require moving office furniture and equipment to get a ladder under them. I have no clue how many man hours this would take, even with a waiver for furniture damage to accelerate the job.

As I am on the subject of my building, we haven't begun to address the heat exchangers in the three hundred and sixty five perimeter heat pumps that cannot be drained, or the rest of the two hundred ton open loop system and the heat exchangers on those twelve units that cannot be drained or the electric water coolers that won't drain.

I don't have a T & P chart for saline solutions, but I have walked out on the West River about a half mile from the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay in the winter when I was a kid.

I have a cat named Rocket. I asked the Property Manager for several hundred gallons of vodka to solve some of these problems. We are doing a contingincey plan but we do not have a budget, she says.

I will have to teach Rocket not to drink anything that is green.

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@erols.com), July 04, 1999.

message to Tom Beckner; Tom some solutions to your building water drain problems. To safely have the pipes not freeze ,try RV antifreeze solution, it's ediable. They use it in RV's to protect the polypipes in them. One way to get all the water out of the sprinkler system is to back feed high pressure air to the last vertical pipe w/sprinkler on it. It would be like a paint sprayer if you are using only air to suck up the paint from a can. Concerning your loop in the heat exchangers, try a brass "Tee" Compression Union. In line with the pipes at the lowest point. Possible these will get some ideas working for your engineer postion and building....

-- Furie (furieart@dnet.net), July 05, 1999.

Furie:

Thanks for the RV antifreeze tip.

Re: the sprinkler system, in a garage or area with unfinished ceilings the individual legs for each head are verticle up, and compressed air works.

For verticle down legs, there is no vent as in the case of a syphon spray cup. Plus the individual drops are parallel to supply pipes, not in series.

Heat exchangers, difficult access, three hundred and sixty five of them. Easier to convert this closed loop to glycol. That is up to the bean counters.

I don't think it is going to happen. The building just got put on the market for sale :)

Bottom line is these suckers were never built with provision for extended interruption of power.

Even back when they were vacant and in the Resolution Trust inventory, they were winterized and had continous heat set to low space temperatures, some for a couple of years, just because of insurance requirements to maintain fire / safety including the sprinkler systems

Anyway, I hope Jo Ann has a wood stove and am sure she will do just fine.

.

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@erols.com), July 05, 1999.