Most protestants would believe that the RCC contains and teaches false doctrine. Do you believe that the protestant churches contain and teach false doctrine?

-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), July 01, 1999

Answers

Go stir make mudpies somewhere else - Jean B.

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 01, 1999.

Some Protestants believe that the RCC contains false Doctrine. Because thay do not really know what the RCC actually teaches just what they have heard it teaches. I believe that most Protestant churches teach and contain incomplete Doctrine. A few contain false Doctrine.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 01, 1999.

Yes, the RC church teaches a lot of false doctrine. And it has gotten worse since liberals like JP II took over after Vatican II. JP II believes you can get to heaven without believing in Jesus Christ and that Jews, Christians & Moslems worship the same God!

Any educated RC knows that protestantism & Romanism are miles apart. If an RC is honest, he will say the protestants believe false doctrine. If he is an ecumenical catholic, then he will say we are all getting to heaven our own way, can't we all just get along, etc. RCs are so "tolerant" nowadays, except when it comes to "fundamentalists" or "traditionalists." Just ask a follower of Lefevbre about how "ecumenical" JP II is.

O tempora, o mores!

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), July 01, 1999.

Steve,

Again I say as I have for so many years. The saddest thing in Church history was the Refromation. To think a number of German politicos used a well meaning cleric to their own ends is beyond comprehending as a civil act. Luther in his last dyas of life declared " What Have I Done!! "

The Church fathers were no angels themselves for they would not give up the wealth greed and power bases that St. Francis confronted them on three hundred prior.

Our current Pope has pointed this and many other severe mistakes on the Church's part with no forgiveness by the Bishops themselves. I find this personally shameful. Even when he asked for forgivness and understanding re: the holocaust he was shunned by his own. When I ask will we learn to live as one family under God.

Yes Jews Muslims Hindus Taoists and all the rest pray to one God for He made us all in his image. Christ's message may have touched all nations but has been met with various soils he pointed out in a parable.

Do not forget my friends Satan does exist and does roam the earth devouring souls. To think not is a foolish way of life. Be humble Ne kind Be loving be Chrsit-like for Christ's sake.

Jean B.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 01, 1999.

Hi Steve,

Do you not believe that the roots of Christianity (Old Testament)is in the Jewish faith and that the Jews worship the same God? You need to re-read your Bible.

JP II believes you can get to heaven without believing in Jesus Christ if you do not know that you have to believe in Christ. But live a life pleasing to God. "The Scriptures say "Other sheep I have that are not of this fold" who are they?

[Any educated RC knows that protestantism & Romanism are miles apart.]

Are you assumming that all of the ten of thousand forms of Protestantism all believe the same things?

[RCs are so "tolerant" nowadays, except when it comes to "fundamentalists" or "traditionalists." Just ask a follower of Lefevbre about how "ecumenical" JP II is.]

Why would anyone follow an Excommunuicated bishop? Do you follow the teachings of the pope of the Roman Catholic Church, the successor of Peter, visable leader of Christ's Church on earth? If you do not then you have seperated yourself from that Church which Christ founded upon Peter.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 02, 1999.

Br. Rich SFO Would you please address the 2 natures of Christ and the Mary issue on Gen. 3:15 Thanks

-- pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), July 03, 1999.

Br. Rich I'm sorry to not be more specific earlier, but I am particularly interested in your comments on David Bowerman's view of the 2 natures of Christ and his view of Mary the Mother of GOD and the CHURCH.thank you

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), July 03, 1999.

Michael, to answer your question, "Yes." One of the ways is by perpetuating certain church traditions which are not consistent with the fullness of truth that has been revealed and carried by the Orthodox faith from the moment of Pentacost. As a former Presbyterian, I'll confine my comment to my own experience. As you know, as a general rule Protestant organizations deny the office of Priest and Bishop. While we were certainly encouraged to study Paul's writings to congregations of the early Church, we denied the existance and nature of the relationship between Paul and these Pastors and congregations to whom he wrote. The Reformation was a terrible tragedy just as the separation of the Roman Church was from the Orthodox hundreds of years before that.

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.com), July 08, 1999.

Karl,

Do you mean the Orthodox from the Roman Church, or do you mean the Roman church from the Early Apostolic Church? Pamela

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), July 08, 1999.

The Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church as we know it today. It was the Eastern Church that seperated from the one True Church.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 08, 1999.

Pamela, by Orthodox, I mean the Orthodox Church. With all due respect to the Br., and to this forum, which I believe to be primarily Roman Catholic, I have no interest in commenting upon whether or not the Roman Church is the "True Church". My original reply was directed toward Michael and I'm sure that anyone interested in the Body of Christ would agree that the separation of the Roman Church and the Orthodox and the subsequent splintering of the Roman Church with the Protestant Reformation are tragic historic facts. One only has to go to another city on vacation, as I recently did, and pick up the Yellow Pages in search of the Church. The myriad of listings is testimony in itself.

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.net), July 09, 1999.

Karl, You are so right ! All of this splintering has been tragic.

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), July 10, 1999.

Then come home! The doors open and forgiveness is just inside.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 10, 1999.

KARL, I'll be greatly intereted in your translating and explaining these two greek words that appear in the NT: episkopos and presbyteros.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 11, 1999.

Enrique: the simple, direct Greek translations: (1) episkopos, is translated "overseer," and (2) presbyter, as "elder" and by later usage, "priest" in the mid-to- late first century.

Of course, word definitions can be modified by general usage and time with a resultant broadening and understanding into meanings less specific. A modern example is the word "Xerox." Of course, a Xerox photocopy machine is manufactured by Xerox, the original photocopier company. If you've forgive the pun (!), as this technology was copied, any copy requested to be made on resultant manufacturers' machines commonly used this term in the request,"Xerox this letter, please." While the machine actually employed may have be manufactured by Ricoh, the office help knew what the boss wanted - a photocopy. Obviously, Xerox Corporation was very distressed at this dilution of their "branding" position! But, in a free marketplace, anyone offering a substitute of acceptable quality to the original could gain market share.

In my experience, the conditions referred to by the phrases "free marketplace" and "substitute of acceptable quality" are key. Now, with a photocopy, differences in quality may be subtle but as long as a Ricoh machine dosen't smudge the words or start a fire in the office every 100th copy (and the executive's report looks "good enough") the consequences of not using a genuine Xerox machine are immaterial (except, of course, to the Xerox Corporation!). On the other hand, if the copy machine actually left out paragraphs of the original letter or changed the wording the boss' original meaning, it's likely that the purchasing agent who spend the company's money on the defective machine would be fired! The boss didn't get "acceptable quality" and the purchasing agent lost their freedom to get the company's paycheck.

At any rate, I confess I'm digressing. First, words matter to me because I find them intellectually stimulating and entertaining. My favorite PBS radio show was "My Word." Secondly, they also matter because the words we use communicate truth along with our actions. One might say, "I know what Karl believes because I observe his actions." Now those are sobering words! It's this second reason that compelled me to seek the Orthodox community from a Presbyterian Church that I had been a committed, involved member of for over ten years. I still miss regularly seeing a lot of my old friends, some of whom I'm still in contact with.

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.net), July 12, 1999.

Karl,

Good for you in becoming a member of the Orthodox Church which I consider a sister. In place of so many word words words how do you feel about some of the issues presented?=Peace=Jean B.

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 12, 1999.

Jean, You're right! Words, words, words . . . Haven't looked into this forum that much, so hard to say.

Reincaration? Bluntly, a wicked doctrine. Why wicked? Because it twists the Truth. Anything that conceals and alters the Truth about the Holy Trinity's nature, and has been so destructive and pervasive as reincarnation has to be something straight from Hell. Souls are not God's aluminum cans to be recycled. Scripture is clear that the world, and our lives, are linear. There is a beginning and an end all in God's hands.

Pope John Paul II - my first reaction? What a wonderful servant and leader to the Roman Catholic faithful. Why would I say that? Because my heart tells me he is absolutely full of love for the Trinity, the Church and the world. This reason is way out in front of everything else. Plus, I've learned that anyone who is called to office in the Church becomes MORE aware of their individual un-Christlike nature even as they become closer to God. Then, to top that off, they have to add to that growing self-awareness greater responsbilities of caring for Christ's flock. That John Paul II, or any of Christ's servants, can function at all is the best evidence of the sustaining power of the Holy Spirit there is.

I'd better stop now!

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.net), July 12, 1999.

P.S. RE: other issues . . . It is my desire that those with questions (like most) first invest a little EFFORT and learn directly from a _knowledgeable_ source just exactly what does Church doctrine, theology and Catholic tradition teach.

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.net), July 12, 1999.

Karl,

To answer your question of what etc: we as Catholics in our own way are attempting to followthe Eleventh Commandment as be we can.

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 12, 1999.

Praise God! And may He have mercy on me, a sinner. Jean, when all these other issues come up, modernest vs traditionalist, etc., I know they are important, and interesting, and don't we all just love to get "revved up." But there is no doubt in my mind that they are enticing us to drain our spiritual energy budget and divert us from the absolutely most important issue we can face besides our own sin, unholyness. What are we doing about this poor lost world that is going to Hell in a handbasket? God loves the whole world. He loves the lost. He died for us while we were yet sinners. Do we love the lost as much as that? Can we bring the Truth to those who so desparately want it? Dear God have mercy.

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.net), July 13, 1999.

PS. We don't have forever.

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.net), July 13, 1999.

Karl,

Your concern for others is truly a gift. May I offer what was ssid to me as a young man? There is objective passion and subjective passion. Christ during the time with was involved in subjective passions and is still. We are tuaght to be responsible in our dealings with and I feel to maintain a sane balance (not implying you are insane) we give - offer that pain to Christ who brings it to the Father.

In time we shall be given the objectivity (passion) to deal with the situation and do His work. Faith is a gift offering which can be refused through free will. That is always the challenge bdofore us. Peace-Jean B.

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 13, 1999.

Thanks - just looking around the world I'm in and thinking things might be winding down for the stage we're in. Looks pretty crazy "out" there sometimes. Thank God for the Church. Peace is literally in the Liturgy. Sometime if you feel like it, please e-mail me more about what you mean by "subjective" and "objective."

Karl

-- Karl (valleycable@earthlink.net), July 13, 1999.

Karl, thank you for answering my question. you said that presbyteros became "priest" in the early church.

what do you call the episkopos in the Orthodox church today?

Hungry for learning.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 14, 1999.