To The Group

Read a book by a Catholic priest last year in which he stated we may be looking at the last generation of priests as we know them. Any comments? Title was something like Generation Of Remarkable Men.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 30, 1999

Answers

jean,

1. Jesus promised Peter that the Church would persevere, and even the gates of hell would not stand against Her. 2. With no sacramental priesthood - there is no Church. 3. O.T. scripture promises that the sacrifice will go on until the end of time.

You should be more discerning in which priests you choose to read. Vocations are alive and vibrant where the orthodox faith is practiced and the Word is preached in its fullness - not watered down to tickle the ears of the increasingly secular world.

I agree that the laity must be more clothed in Christ to embrace the call of their ordinary priesthood - Within the proper context of their vocation. But this does not imply diminishing the Sacramental Priesthood - indeed it strengthens it.

In my opinion the vocations problem stems from 2 sources - radical feminism and a loss of the sense of value of sacrifice. The Priesthood is a living example of how sanctifying it is to give up something Good (covenental marriage) for a Higher Good. Our society has made discomfort into an evil - it is not.

Bishop LaVerde (sp?) of the Diocese of Arlington gave the keynote address at the Virginia State Knights of Columbus banquet. He spoke to vocations and challenged all to pray for priests (this the feminists pray against to achieve their ends), and he also made a radical challenge. I'll quote as best I can remember "Everyone pray to God 'Please send us Holy Priests'. This is good, but anyone can do that. I place a radical challenge to you and every Catholic to change this prayer to 'Please God send us Holy Priests, AND LET ONE OF THEM COME FROM MY IMMEDIATE FAMILY'".

Jean, you should try to come to the Franciscan University of Steubenville for a Defending Your Faith conference. This years will be held July 9-11. You will get a sense of the Church the way Vatican II described it - not the way ideologues distorted it.

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), June 30, 1999.

JEAN, the catholic priests have been through a long "evolution" from the early days of christianity to this day, but for two thousand years they have been present in every part of the world preaching the word of God, celebrating the Eucharist, etc. etc. they will go on evolving for two thousand more years until the Lord appears again in visible form among us (i don't mean the Lord will come in two thousand years, because as far as the time and the hour of the second coming only the Father in heaven knows it).

ENRIQUE

evolution

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 30, 1999.

SORRY, the word evolution after my name was a typing error.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 30, 1999.

UBI, How do you define feminism? Many define it as the catch-all to all ills of society. What do you call weak men? I believe Adam was the first weak male to blame his ills on the feminist movement (Eve) but God did not buy it then and He won't by it now. The ills of society have always started with weak men who would like nothing better than to have as few responsibilities and accountabilities as possible. Adam could have counseled Eve from the serpent with the Word of God, but instead Adam not only joins in but encourages the fall with his eyes opened fully aware that he is sinning against God. Who bears the greater responsiblity in the sight of God. The man???? God sent a second Adam (Jesus) to carry the sin of the greater transgressor (the First Adam. If you read the Bible carefully you will find that God never through the Holy Spirit blames Eve. It is always the Sin of Adam. Ever wonder about that? It is very likely that the rebellion of women in this age is a direct consequence of the disrespect and abuse , arrogant attitudes and the using of women by men for centuries. It is the man's actions that women react to. Just like God . We love Him because He loved us first. The same is true of men and women Adam failed Eve The second Adam saved her and did what the first Adam should have done.

-- Pamela Brink (Rosylace@aol.com), June 30, 1999.

Pamela,

Good question. I define authentic feminism by the example of authentic feminists. Mother Theresa of Calcutta, Mother Angelica, Dr. Janet Smith, Mrs. Scott Hahn, Alice Von Hildebrand, and of course our Blessed Mother.

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), June 30, 1999.

After reading that last answer I realize it wasn't quite adequate. I agree with all your statements about the weakness of men. I equate the roles of men and women withing marriage (domestic church) to the collegial role of the bishops and Pope in the Universal Church.

Authentic feminism in marriage is described in Scriptures by the Apostle Paul. I stand with our Baptist brethern in their understanding of this issue. The proper roles of husband and wife in the domestic church (I think) model the collegial relationship between bishops and the Pope. With the understanding that there is an implied requirement that the man love his wife as Christ loved the Church (a tall task), and the realization that it also implies that the husband is seeking God's will in all things. If both are genuinely sanctifying each other via the Sacrament of Marriage, and walking humbly with the Lord and seeking His Will, then it really is not a matter of submission, it is a matter of mutual Holy obedience.

Inauthentic feminism seeks measures authority by amount of power held. They reduce the supernatural nature of the Universal Church to a patriarchial power structure. They seek power at all cost, even if it means a destruction of the Priesthood. If they can't have the power of the priesthood, they want to take their ball and go home - demean a patriarchial Church. Pityful. Mother Theresa of Calcutta is the most recent example (and one of the best) that authority is derived from love and service (when Christ give Peter the authority to head the Church he asked Do you love me, and a reply of feed my sheep - love and service). Her moral authority and overall influence in the Church was equal to John Paul II's. And it was all gained by humility , holy obedience to her vocation, and service.

-- ubi (ubi@petros.cm), June 30, 1999.

UBI I enjoyed you answer. I do believe that the RCC has adequately answered the gender issue in the church as long as they stick to it. I think that it took a great deal of courage and trusting in the Lord for the RCC to graciously allow Gospel freedom to women to take part in the Scripture readings and the Eucharistic ministry. When you liken it to the domestic church you can plainly see that both genders have the duty to convey God's Word to the children, however all is done in an orderly fashion under the protective eye of the overseer (father). In the church public certain duties fall under the full guardianship not just of any man, but a called servant of God into the Holy Ministry. This can never be changed or compromised because it is not strictlty a male issue, but a called male issue. God chose 12. He chose Peter, not Paul to be the head. However both work toward the good of the Church as servants. Both are partners. Lets not forget the Holy Mother and especially Mary Magdalene who Jesus gave the honorable work of informing the leaders of the church that He had arisen. The unbelieving leaders of the church I might add!! Jesus was the first High Priest that gave the telling of the Gospel to the church by a Christain woman. The RCC did what Jesus had already sanctioned, that doesn't in anyway indicate He wanted women priests.

-- Pamela Brink (Rosylace@aol.com), July 01, 1999.

ubi Could you please define authentic masculinity and inauthentic chauvinism? I believe when you have authentic masculinity you have authentic feminism, however, when you have inauthentic chauvinism you breed inauthentic feminism. Do you agree?

-- Pamela Brink (Rosylace@aol.com), July 01, 1999.

Wow, that's tougher. Authentic masculinity, Pope John Paul II, Saint Joseph, Saint Ignatius of Loyola and St. Augustine (after their conversions), and most likely any man who understands the Church's teaching on sexuality enough to remain a virgin until married and chaste with his wife after, most likely any man who understands the Church's teaching on birth control enough to practice it with his wife.

Inauthentic chauvinism, Bill Clinton, Christian husbands who don't understand Christ's teaching enough to know that they me be servants to their wives in order to have authority over them, Saint Ignatius of Loyola and St. Augustine (before their conversion). And anyone who isn't included in the first list (including me for most of my life, and often times even now when I fail to surrender totally to Christ).

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), July 01, 1999.

And in this corner Pam who offers insight questions results and continues on. In the other corner Ubi who offers insight answers results and continues. Both are in fine shapes having followed training methods set by the Big Kahuna: love one another as I have loved you.

Score card: Pam One hug Ubi returned hug. An interesting round to follow. - Jean B.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 01, 1999.

Jean,

Thank you, and I'll try to keep my incessant pride from leading me into sin. : - )

Now, can we get you to do some interior reflection about what sometimes comes across as an anger at the hierarchial structure that Christ gave to his Church? You seem mad at priests and bishops sometimes, and others not. You must be a very complex creature.

Dominus Vobiscum

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), July 02, 1999.

After the interesting turn this thread took, I would be remiss if I did not mention an excellent web site for married couples, engaged couples, or christian men at any stage of their vocation. St. Joseph's Covenant Keepers is located at http://www.dads.org. They are like a Promise Keepers with the additional advantage of the Sacramental life of the Church (the abundant life!)

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), July 02, 1999.

Ibi,

You are correct in sensing my anger. Part of my life is involed in financial matters working as liaison for a very wealthy non-Catholic Christian whom I have known for almost twenty years.

The manner in which the Church monies are squandered is to say the least disgusting. Hidden accounts land purchases for " future " developments school teacher's contracts disputed for years travelling expenses etc. etc. etc. has floored me over and over again. These priests could not earn a living in the world and have no idea of the energies involved in making a buck.

For example: a religious community being " guided " by the Bishop to Joint Venture with a group of his friends. Result $283.0 million dollars gone and no manner of investigation due to Church rulings and political ties.

School property estimated worth $87.0 million purchased for $17.0 million due to diminished vocations of the Order.

Priest crying for years to have $8.0 million for Church repairs needed since the 70's. Result: Sent in a Franciscan who got the Bishop roaring drunk and slipped the item under his nose while pouring more of the finest. " Damn right He will get his GD rectory re-built! I say so. "

Fourteen year old girl raped until her parents at the her age of twenty brought it forward to the Bishop. Result: payout $220.000 CASH.

In my work I travel a lot and meet a lot of good priests and Bishops. They are the minority to be sure. One Bishop asked me for a Lear Jet for his diocese as to make things easier. The one prior given had crashed, So sorry.

I shall leave this now and see what the feed back is - Jean B.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 02, 1999.

jean bouchard --- Did stuff like this go on before Vatican 11?

Probably you're not old enough to know. But I wonder. It's my impression that everything in the world started falling apart spiritually in the early 60's, & that includes the RCC -- or rather, especially the RCC.

-- wondering (not@this.address), July 11, 1999.

To Wondering,

These things have been happening since time began in any religios group. The priests attempted to hold sway over the faithful by instilling fear fear fear.

As this centery has given now nore knowledge these past seventy years and continues to do so all religious hierchy have had to " Adapt" as they say. The Roman Catholic Church is a likened to a fine Roman Chariot and wonderfully strong horses. Unfortunetaly someone put square wheels on it. So much energy to move forward and then the process starts over again.

As to your wuestion has is this prevelant after Vatican Two I say know for history speaks of these things constantly. St. Francis Of Assisi pointed this out in the 1200's. As an esthetic I follow his manner and know there are still wonderfully beatiful priests and pastors outthere truly speaking the Word.

Interesting history is the 12th-16th centuries. If possible read the history of the Medicis and the building of Notre-Dame in Paris. Real eye openers.

Our Church will never fail although being in the hands of men it will falter. We Christ behind through thick and thick plain and simple.

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 12, 1999.

A friend sent me a hope-filled e-mail message yesterday. It tells of a list of ten characteristics of the "new breed" of seminarians and priests in the late 20th, and early 21st, centuries. It must have been the Holy Spirit that led me to stumble across this two-year-old thread to which to append these words.

The following list was enunciated in a homily on August 28 (St. Augustine's day) by Fr. Francis Mary Stone of the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word.

---------------------------------------------------------------
The "new breed" are saying these things about themselves:

1. We've had adult conversions/reversions to Catholicism -- with virtually no childhood aspirations to the priesthood.

2. We've worked the 80 hour weeks in ...
..... a. corporate America
..... b. Wall Street and Madison Avenue
..... c. law firms, engineering consultants, and "Big 10" CPA firms
..... d. start-ups, take-overs, and leveraged buy-outs
..... e. Ivy League and Big Ten schools and doctors offices
..... That is, we know and have experienced the materialism, consumerism, individualism, secularism, unfettered capitalism, and narcissism of modernity.

3. We don't want new "careers." We utterly abhor the idea of a "professional priest". It is our vocation, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

4. We come from a culture, a society, a nation, cities and towns -- yes, even families -- that are dysfunctional - scarred from an abortive, contraceptive, euthanasia mentality. Yet, God still calls us!

5. We're products of an un-catechized generation.

6. We've recognized the very grave and hurtful scandals in the Church -- of homosexuality & pedophilia -- and are fed up with it.

7. We love Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the Holy Eucharist. We consider them to be inseparable and essential -- not an option. The Rosary and Eucharistic Adoration are for us not merely one among "many forms" of spirituality.

8. Pope John Paul II is our unabashed hero -- and we have no qualms about saying that whatsoever, to whomever.

9. We love the life of celibacy and have no intention whatsoever of trying to do away with this long-standing discipline. It's utterly reasonable and clearly a gift to the Church. Our Spouse is the Church and we love her, we'll die for her, and are very jealous lovers of her.

10. We love the Church and her Divinely mandated authority. We take consolation and peace in the authority she ever so carefully and wisely wields and the order that authority brings about -- for order brings true peace.
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St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 18, 2001.