I've been wondering about this question for a while, so I guess I'll ask it. Why do we, the majority at least on this forum, minus certain trolls and polly's, not believe the government spin on the Y2K issue, just a bump in the road, etc, etc,, but, when a post is put on the forum relating to comets, solar flares, etc, it is met with much derision?

The general response to most of the postings related to these issues seems to be a belief that whatever the government or the NASA web page says, is the whole truth.

So- if we KNOW the gov. is NOT telling the truth about Y2K, and we greet their pronouncments that all is well with much warranted skepticism, why do we just swallow what they say re; comet Lee and solar activity, hook, line and sinker?? I was just wondering about this.

I know that technically, those topics are OT, as well as this post I suppose, but it concerns me. In fact, as I posted on an earlier thread relating to comet Lee, I KNOW the government is lying about it. I was given a heads up by someone last Fall relating to a blue-green object that would be visible in 6 months or so. This person got this info from a life-long friend who is "in the know"- can't say more about that. This evidently is Comet Lee. If I knew about it last Fall, how could it have just been "discovered" in April, as the gov't spin puts it? Anyway- I do think that these issues are potentially important ones, and wish people here would look at the info with an open and questioning mind, much as they do for Y2K info.

And no- I am not particularly familiar with prophecies, Nostradamus, etc- have heard of such stuff, but never read them. I am aproaching this from a purely scientific line of inquiry- although i don't have any problem with those who wish to, following the prophecy materials.

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), June 29, 1999

Answers

Farmer, I had an awakening jolt along this line on Art Bell (I know, I know, there goes my credibility?) a month or so ago, relating to the last large comet (Hale Bopp?). I don't remember the specifics, but the point was it was not a comet at all, but more like a small planet or asteroid, and that NASA, for no apparent reason, had lied about it. I remember looking at it through my birding telescope, seeing a very round body (no fuzziness or tail whatsoever), and thinking it was therefore much more interesting to observe it without optical aids. I think of NASA as an impeccable research organization, not primarily politically motivated, so it was a very bizarre thought that NASA might not be trustworthy. I have been waiting to discuss the matter with a professional astronomer friend.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), June 29, 1999.

This is a large and valuable question that you raise. The problem isn't that TPTB lie all the time but, worse, they spin-lie "variably".

So, we have to devote lots of energy (cf Y2K) to evaluating statements, rather than simply responding to them. The Internet has demonstrated repeatedly that mainstream sources of information have largely become vehicles for "getting out the spin" desired by a given entity (arguably, the realization of how ubiquitous this has become is the medium's greatest strength to date).

If stating the "truth" is good "spin", the truth is shared. Otherwise, some of the "truth" is shared, mixed with elements calculated to misdirect the listener away from other pieces of the "truth" that are germane to the phenomenon in question.

It is mainly pointless to ask when this became the norm in our public space. Certainly, institutional entities have lied for millenia. However, local sanctions against deceit are easier to enforce than when the agencies are remote and impersonal (cf living in a small town where everyone knows each other).

More recently, the Johnson-led Vietnam War and, later, the Nixon Administration's managing of media seems to have marked a real watershed in the capacity to "shade" truth without breaking it entirely, aided by technical "advancements".

The pernicious moral aspect of this, which I judge a recent social innovation, is the notion within any given entity (whether a government, a corporation or even a family, thinking more broadly) that it is not only "ok" but somehow "necessary" and even virtuous to manage information adversarially with others, rather than share it cooperatively.

So, for instance, if someone at NASA believes it is in their "interest" and the "public's" interest to describe an astronomical event in a certain fashion, this trumps all classical criteria for simply "telling the truth". (When the word "public interest" is used in a parental spirit, we argue to ourselves that our "spin-lies" are virtuous).

Bottom line: there is an enormous amount of self- and mutual deceit poisoning all world cultures at this time. Once started and sanctioned, it is extraordinarily difficult to reverse. It certainly starts with calling a spade a spade:

Our era is an era of liars.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 29, 1999.

If you're watching solar flare activity, what happened to the big CME that was supposed to hit the earth on June 27?? Where I live, nothing happened!! And there wasn't anything newsworthy about it anywhere else, either. This is why such postings are met with dirision and disbelief.

-- gizmo (t@m.net), June 29, 1999.

BigDog commented:

"Bottom line: there is an enormous amount of self- and mutual deceit poisoning all world cultures at this time. Once started and sanctioned, it is extraordinarily difficult to reverse. It certainly starts with calling a spade a spade:

Our era is an era of liars. "

BigDog, I don't believe the IMPORTANCE of your statement here can be underestimated. This activity has gained momentum and acceptance by government, corporations and individuals in our society over a number of years. The results have been and will continue to be devastating.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), June 29, 1999.

Solar activity is like the weather. Predictions for specific days are iffy. Predictions of general climate ("winter's coming") are less so. As for asteroids/comets, it's kinda hard to cover up something that can be looked at by any astronomer.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), June 29, 1999.

CME is due to strike this evening and into tomorrow morning. The "ejection" was on the 27th.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), June 29, 1999.

So you are choosing to trust Art Bell and his guests over NASA. You have that right as a free citizen. You even have the right to believe the garbage on davidicke.com. But the vast bulk of what Art Bell and David Icke put out is simply dead wrong. They, and their guest speakers, make wild predictions - that never come true.

NASA laid out an orbit for Comet Lee - call an observatory and ask if Comet Lee is following that orbit or if it is scooting around all over the Solar System. Or get a telescope, learn how to use it, and find out for yourself.

If you don't think you can afford a telescope, build one! It isn't hard - in fact it is pretty easy if you have a few hand tools and a hundred or so bucks to spend. Hey - think I will start an OT thread on that.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), June 29, 1999.

BTW, I wasn't personally addressing NASA and this specific matter but the broader issue raised at the top of the thread. Paranoia is increased by the legitimate reasons to distrust presentation of information by so-called authoritative sources, on both the political left and the right. Unfortunately.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), June 29, 1999.

Sometimes, locating "truth nuggets" is like sifting for grains of gold on a sandy beach, isn't it?

When society... long ago... accepted little "white" lies so people's feelings would be spared... then we got lies in all colors.

Our government... and almost every child has mastered the technique by age 10. Sad.

Meanwhile there is buried truth waiting to be "dug up" and sometimes so many lies are "in your face" that it presents it's own kind of "truth."

Wheat 'n chaff.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), June 29, 1999.

Big Dog- yep- that's what it's all about these days. Sifting thru the "spin", attempting to figure out what's REALLY going down. That's why conspiracy theories and NWO theories and "little blue signs" and UN buses and black heli's, etc are so big these days. People no longer have any trust in our government, and with good reason. they have chosen again and again to mislead, misrepresent and hide the truth from the public for who's good.....?? I personally would rather know the truth about everything than have to guess and read between the lines. Sort of reminds me of how in Russia, prior to the "fall" of communism, one would hear that solemn dirge type music would be played over the radio and TV prior to serious anouncements, etc- so people would deduce that something big was happening from that. This is almost what we've become reduced to here. I find it hard to believe that adults are incapable of dealing with reality and so must have the truth sugarcoated and hidden from them, or only fed them a bit at a time.

So- no- I don't trust the current spin on solar stuff. And as I stated above, I have real legitimate reasons to doubt the gov't spin on Lee.

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), June 29, 1999.

CME is due to strike this evening and into tomorrow morning. The "ejection" was on the 27th.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), June 29, 1999.

Ants are sensitive to impending seismic activity and atmospheric changes... and we have no shortage here in Central Texas.... should we anticipate that critter earthquake prognosticators will sense the CME's arrival?

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), June 29, 1999.

I tend toward the view that lies/spin/fabrications of half-truths/etc. are not new to either govt./corporate/ or even individual life. What has changed is the individual propensity to eat what's on offer from the 'experts'. There has been an awakening among the people's, the learning curve from the 50's till today has been rapid. No not everyone is smarter...just more information from more sources are available. My mother used to tell me that even though the news is slanted if you read as much as is available to you and follow the development of a story and read between the lines...then, and only then, can you uncover some of the truth (this was in the 50's). My mother, I suppose, was never one to follow the herd of opinion.

-- Shelia (Shelia@active-stream.com), June 29, 1999.

Brooks:

"...relating to the last large comet (Hale Bopp?). I don't remember the specifics, but the point was it was not a comet at all, but more like a small planet or asteroid, and that NASA, for no apparent reason, had lied about it. I remember looking at it through my birding telescope, seeing a very round body (no fuzziness or tail whatsoever), and thinking it was therefore much more interesting to observe it without optical aids."

I too had a good look at Hale-Bopp, with and without "optical aid." Just eyeballing it, I saw a fuzzy ball of light with a brilliant tail streaming away in a slight curve behind it. Through my 8" f4.5 Dobsonian with a 12mm eyepiece (76x magnification) the comet still appeared as a fuzzy ball of light, but now I could see two tails, one somewhat bluish, streaming back but diverging from each other; and in the halo ahead of the comet's head I could see several concentric arcs of luminosity (like parentheses, only subtending about 45 degrees) concentric to the comet, appearing like bow waves. Several dozen other people around me saw much the same thing. Amateur photographs of Hale-Bopp also show it much as I've described. Brooks must have been looking at a star.

Brooks:

"I think of NASA as an impeccable research organization, not primarily politically motivated, so it was a very bizarre thought that NASA might not be trustworthy."

For a chronicle of NASA's tireless and often unprofessional efforts to be less than candid and to discourage independent research, see Prof. Stanley V. McDaniel's 1993 book, The McDaniel Report : On the Failure of Executive, Congressional, and Scientific Responsibility in Investigating Possible Evidence of Artificial Structure

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), June 29, 1999.

There are way too many people who get their "news" from the "boob tube" these days. All of the majors, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, etc... have the EXACT same news. News polished to be accepted by Joe Sixpack plopped down on his couch. The majority of people anymore are a bunch of houseplants, waiting to be fed their daily dose of video reality. The spin on any subject fed by the majors is totally amazing.

For instance:

Has any of the major "news" spinners followed up on the depleted uranium poisonings of children in Iraq due to the gulf war use of these, soon-to-be imfamous, artillery and anti-tank rounds?

Haven't heard about the clean-up from Hurricane Mitch lately have you? That whole area down there is still totally trashed. It just ain't "newsworthy" anymore.

These "couch-potatoes", "trying to grow a butt-root", do not want to hear about it, so the "news" doesn't speak about it.

Everything is so politically correct anymore. At work I cannot even tell someone they made a mistake anymore, without a visit to HR. And that is BULL$#!+... People have their "hearts on their sleeve" (there is an old saying I would like to know the original meaning for) for all to see, and basically are looking for a reason to sue, anyone that even remotely crosses them.

Mr. Farmer this sort of people will take any tidbits the government or whomever feeds them, "hook, line, and sinker". I personally don't "believe anything I hear and half of what I see". I take ALL information I glean off the net, or anywhere else for that matter, with a "grain of salt"...

The television was the beginning of "programming society" to believe what "they" want you to believe. I just wish I knew who "they" were. We are possibly entering a time where the "herd" is rounded up and us freethinking types exterminated. (I can see the flames over that statement)

But you never know... (that is my personal mantra) ; )

Life as you know it, is about to change... by how much is undetermined..........just don't expect "them" to tell you...

Read between the lines... it gets easier the more you do it...

gettin' a drink,

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), June 29, 1999.

I think the mainstream media is interested in only one thing, ratings. So therefore we keep hearing the same old news over and over. But even as bad as it is, I'd hate to think that I'd turn to Art Bell for any kind of valid information. One of the best sources of information about solar activity is in The Old Farmer's Almanac. Everyone should have one.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 29, 1999.

Just academically here, for the sake of usage, spin is a very different thing from lies. Think of a court case. At best, the facts have all been brought out through the discovery and cross-examination process. The jury (hopefully) has all the facts necessary to make a decision.

At this point, the lawyers make closing statements. They are prohibited from telling lies, but their purpose is (intended by law to be) pure spin. Which facts are most important? What do the facts really *mean*? Which facts are more reliable? How should the facts of the case be properly applied to the law in the case? On and on. Pure spin. No falsehoods at all. The best (criminal, anyway) lawyers are masters at manipulating emotions and creating false impressions.

Above, I said it was hopeful that the jury has all the facts. Often enough, lawyers on one side know facts they aren't telling unless asked, hoping nobody asks. They may know of material witnesses but don't call them hoping the other side hasn't done their homework and doesn't know these people exist. This is all part of the spin.

Oh, and a note to Brooke. Comets are celestial objects whose origin is from beyond the outermost planet (currently Neptune, I think) in the Solar System. Usually, these are jostled loose from somewhere in the oort cloud (or even interstellar travelers). Such an object (they're all comets based on origin) can have a variety of physical makeup. Most are composed of ices (frozen gases) which creates the tail. Some are rocky bodies with little or no tail (like Kahoutek). They can be any size.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 29, 1999.

Reply to Dennis [djolson] about CME:

The CME I'm referring to was reported ON THIS FORUM as originating on or about the 24th or 25th of June, and flatly stated that it would impact the earth ON the 27 th OF JUNE!!!! NOT A DAMN THING HAPPENED!!!! Don't try to revise the record of the forum.

-- gizmo (t@m.net), June 29, 1999.