"Wholesale, retail, systematic, unscrupulous...."

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"It is by wholesale, retail, systematic, unscrupulous lying, for I can use no gentler term, that the many rivulets are made to flow for feeding the great Protestant Tradition."

John Henry Newman, "Fable the Basis of the Protestant View" (1851)

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), June 25, 1999

Answers

Lane, congratulations !! you did very well in quoting the great convert who saw very clearly about both sides.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 26, 1999.


At the risk of ruffling feathers I have always verballized Protestant as pro-testant. Great damage was done by Luther and we have much work to do to bring the family back to-gether.

Peace - Jean B.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 26, 1999.


Just to present a different viewpoint . . . or was the damage done when the Church refused to repent and change when Luther pointed out their sin and theological error?

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), June 28, 1999.

David,

A history I read once regarding this Luther business brought forward the aristocracy (German) at the time saw their chance to gain land holdings. They used Luther's sincere faith to their gain and profit. Luther himself at the end of his life stated " What have I done? " in anguish.

My heart has always gone to the man for his wanting to bring the people a more understanding hierachy. They (The Church) refused and paid the price of losing obedience to the church which holds to this day both inside and outside the Catholic Church.

St. Francis I believe brought forward the first " confrontation " of this issue being wealth and power of the supposedly " servants " of Christ. This has caused this Christian much saddness in my life.

We I feel are all brothers and sisters in Christ and it must sadden Christ Himself to see this happen over and over again. WE must I hope learn to love one another and bring forth fruits of kindness.

Peace - Jean B.

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 28, 1999.


Jean, I concur. I had to cut short my last post, but had intended to mention that Luther got caught up in events that were far from his control or intent. On the one side, the Church rejected his plea for discussion over the issues he posted. On the other side, "friends" of Luther and enemies of the Church converged on the opportunity to formally split from Rome. With Rome in pursuit to silence the heresy and supporters offering shelter, Luther had little choice but to reluctantly join in the split. I believe that much of the Reform movement was political even though the Reformer himself was not.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), June 28, 1999.


Well, I can't agree that Luther was not himself political and had only doctrinal purity in mind; in fact he was a supremely political animal and thrived on the attention his new doctrines raised. It is also very true that many in Christendom, especially the German princes, seized on the doctrinal confusion for political gain and therefore supported Luther.

I agree with David in his assertion that elements in the Church were rightly accused of sin by Luther. That there was significant need of reform in these areas is unquestionable. Where I can't agree is that there was doctrinal corruption.

Now the Council of Trent addressed both facets of Luther's accusations, the doctrinal and the practical. On the practical side there were a host of reforms including, most significantly, reform of the granting of indulgences in light of Luther's criticisms. So yes, the Church did listen to valid criticism and reform. On the doctrinal side the Church showed that Luther's and Calvins twin "pillars" of sola fide and sola Scriptura are themselves supremely unbiblical, without foundation in apostolic tradition, and therefore are to be rejected as the "traditions of men."

My $0.02.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 28, 1999.


ML "86. Again: -- "Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?""

I think both "sides" were to involved "politically." Hungry for power and prestige . And many still are, imho.

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), June 30, 1999.


Here is my quote "Do you think if Christ returned today , that he would do just as he did in the Jewish temple 2000 years ago to all organized religion?"

-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 30, 1999.

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