Hail Marygreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
This is in response to those that think this prayer is not worshipping idols,or graven images.What does the word hail mean,it means greetings,welcome or acclamation.What does acclamation mean,a loud,eager expression of approval,PRAISE,or assent.What does worship mean,reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power,also the ACT of expressing such reverence,also,A FORM OF RELIGOUS PRACTICE WITH IT'S CREED AND RITUAL,extravegant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem.So you see,in fact this is worship.Btw,an idol is an object of extreme devotion,aka mary.
-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 24, 1999
Kenneth ,Does God speak to you in his word?
-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 24, 1999.
Kenneth,Now I take offense at your disrespect for the Mother Of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is one of the areas that other religions do not accept although that is changing rapidly right here in the U.S.A..
No one considers her an idol or a god or anything supernatural rather She is our Spiritual Mother given to us by Her Son prior to His death on the Cross. To John He said " John behold thy mother "
The offense I feel is the small angry minds who either know and turn their backs on her or other brats who attempt to defame her. Shame on you for belittling someone's mother. Shame on your selfish little mind.
She loves you Kenneth and wll be there always to take your pains and needs to her Son who will tend to things you need which could be some pruning. Peace - Jean B.
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 25, 1999.
"And Gabriel came to her and said, 'Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with you!'" (Luke 1:28). Was the angel Gabriel worshipping Mary, Kenneth?Show us all where the Catholic Church teaches that Mary is to receive the adoration and worship due to God.
Then answer this question:
How do you know which books belong in the New Testament? Please use only the words of Scripture to answer this question, since that's the way you want us to answer. (No fair getting the answer from the Pope; we want your own answer here ;-D).
-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 25, 1999.
Oh maybe i am wrong but i thought it was said that "there is only ONE mediator between me and God, the Lord Jesus Christ!Why do you need TWO- "She loves you Kenneth and wll be there always to take your pains and needs to her Son who will tend to things you need which could be some pruning. Peace - Jean B. "
Why two mediators?
Are you sure your prayers are getting through?
-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 25, 1999.
Kenneth, I as kyou to sit back and relax for a few short moments in this. Firstly if one to believe in a spiritual life which I do then I consider it a plus to have another spirit having the ability to speak ti Christ directly. Christ does mediate I feel for He is God of the Trinity.Prayer is not anything but a conversstion with Our Father In Heaven. Christ being God and man all in one taught us that we are adopted children of God and therefore able to speak to Him directly. There is no shame in that at all. Once we have hunbles ourselves to rach to Christ the Father is right there for from Him all good things come.
This afternoon prior to my hitting the keyboard for a while this evening I thought of you and this came to mind: you perhaps have angry child in you that is frustrated at something important inyour life. This reaching out attempting to hurt others is a sing to myself of hurt within yourself. Should you want or desire to " talk " to someone I am here at my E:Mail
Peace And Well Being
A Little Brother In Christ
Jean Bouchard
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 25, 1999.
I beleive mary was ALIVE,when the ANGEL SPOKE TO HER to tell her what was going to occur.He was having a conversation with a human being.What catholics do is exactly described in the above definitions.Now i know which books belong in the New testament,because they are the ones in the New Testament,where God placed them.Do you beleive the Bible is the inerrant WORD OF GOD,must not,because you keep questioning if this goes here,or who wrote this,and if it is,why does the rcc and the pope need to keep adding,changing and perverting the scriptures.How could it be the perfect WORD OF GOD,if God forgot to add a few things?How come catholics can't back up their beliefs without resorting to your own manmade doctrine,and michael brought up an excellent point,i might add,and regarding mary loving me,ecc9:5 For the living know that they shall die,but the dead know not anything,and yes Michael,i believe God has really blessed me with a lot of understanding.I thank Him for all he has done in my life.
-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 25, 1999.
Kenneth,Your closing statement of having been blessed by God to a deeper understanding may very well be a gift. As a gift it is not a possession but given in trust to do good. It can be taken away at any time for it is not yours to possess.
Peace - Jean B.
-- jean bouchardRay, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 26, 1999.
The Greek word for "one" [heis] in 1Timothy 2:5 can carry the meaning of "primary" or "first amongst others" since this is how it is used in the Greek Scriptures. This word has several meanings but it is not a word denoting exclusivity [compare with "monos" - one and only, alone, sole: John 17:3; 1Tim 1:17; Jude 4,25]. (For example of Scripture's various uses for "heis" see: Matt 22:35; 26:21; Mark 14:18; John 11:52.)This meaning would fit apply since in the same passage Paul exhorts us to make "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings" for all men" (1Tim 2:1). Furthermore, "this is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior" (1Tim 2:3).
We understand this passage to relate to the redemption. Christ alone was fully God and fully man and could rightly mediate between both. In this sense Christ is alone. However, we are instructed to share in His ministry of bringing men to God. Those in Christ are to share His work.
The Father in all His mercy has given us two DIVINE intercessors and advocates, the Son (Heb 7:25; John 14:16; 1John 2:1) and the Spirit (Rom 8:26; John 15:26)[the words "comforter" and "advocate" in these passages are translated from the same Greek word "parakletos"].
Both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures reveal that God's holy ones indeed recieve prayers from us and interced on our behalf. The first book of Bible reveals that before Israel's death he praised God and invoked a blessing from an angel for his sons in prayer (Gen 48:15- 16). The last book of the bible relates similar information. It explains that angels offer incense with our prayers before God (Rev 7:3-4), ergo intercession.
As for the dead not knowing anything, the Scriptures are accurate in what they say. However, the meaning of the passage relates only to our physical nature (i.e. the body) not our spiritual nature. Ecclesiastes explains that we all share the same fate good or bad (Eccles 9:1-3). This is only true of our physical being - we all go to the grave. The Scriptures consistently reveal that there is an afterlife and that there will be both punishment and glory depending on our works for our souls (Gen 35:18; 1Kings 17:17-24; Matt 10:28; 25:34-46; Luke 9:30-31; 20:38; 23:43,46; Acts 7:59; 20:9; Rom 2:6-13; 2Cor 5:6-9; 1Thess 4:13-17; Phil 1:21-23; Heb 9:27).
The Scriptures do reveal that the souls of the departed are conscious after death (Luke 9:30; 16:22-28; Rev 6:9-11).
-- Jorge (JTrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 26, 1999.
Jorge wrote***The first book of Bible reveals that before Israel's death he praised God and invoked a blessing from an angel for his sons in prayer (Gen 48:15- 16).***
Sorry dig a little deeper on that one. When i say "the flag is red, white,and blue" notice the comas? I mean the flag is red , it is also white , and even blue.
My Bible clearly shows that in those verses
God is 3 things=
(1)before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk
(2)the God which fed me all my life long unto this day
(3)the angel which redeemed me from all evil
or am i misunderstood?
-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 27, 1999.
<< I beleive mary was ALIVE,when the ANGEL SPOKE TO HER to tell her what was going to occur.He was having a conversation with a human being.>>Mary is dead? That must be news to her and all the other Christians who die in the Lord (i.e. who live eternally!). There are no dead Christians.
<< Now i know which books belong in the New testament,because they are the ones in the New Testament,where God placed them. >>
You have this queer idea that the Bible just appear one day, leather bound and translated into good King James English. The Bible didn't just drop from the sky, Kenneth. The earliest Christians did not know for sure which books belonged in the Bible. They were able eventually to discern this through tradition and also on the authority of the Catholic Church. Do you really think Christians were always able to just walk into a bookstore and buy a copy of the New Testament? Sheesh, man, read some history sometime.
<< Do you beleive the Bible is the inerrant WORD OF GOD,must not,because you keep questioning if this goes here,or who wrote this,and if it is,why does the rcc and the pope need to keep adding,changing and perverting the scriptures. >>
I do believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. And I have no questions about which books belong in the Bible. The question is directed to you; so far you have given us no coherent answer.
No pope has ever changed the Scriptures. No pope has ever added to the Scriptures. No pope has ever perverted the Scriptures.
Those tasks are left for guys like you, Kenneth, who believe that the Bible comes from Barnes and Noble and that your personal interpretation is infallible.
Now, have you come up with that official teaching of the Catholic Church that tells us Catholics to give to Mary the same adoration due to God? No? Liar.
-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 28, 1999.
michael, so your bible shows very clearly that God is an angel. it follows then that we'll be judging God (1Cor,4,9) that God belongs to Michael (Rev 12,7) God did not forgive himself (2Pe, 2,4).... !!!!!!!!ENRIQUE
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 28, 1999.
Regarding the validity of the King James Bible KJV is very questionable by many scholars. It was changed in part(s) to accomodate the times and desires of the king who excercised the God given right of Kings. He and others missed the authority of the The King Of Kings.To my shallow knowledge The Vulgate is the accepted translation.
Jean B.
-- jean bouchardRay, (jeanb@cwk.imag,netj), June 28, 1999.
I don't have to,all i got to do is listen to that little prayer you throw up,you know the one,i beleive it has something about mary in it.You know you really act a little foolish by all this name calling,i know what it is,you can run that mouth all you want to,but see i don't get intimadated by name calling or anything else you got.I am rooted and grounded in the Word,i don't need your cathlocisms,or whatever you call it.So go ahead big boy,let it roll,i'm still going to be here,and i got the biggest gun.
-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 28, 1999.
I don't have to,all i got to do is listen to that little prayer you throw up,you know the one,i beleive it has something about mary in it.You know you really act a little foolish by all this name calling,i know what it is,you can run that mouth all you want to,but see i don't get intimadated by name calling or anything else you got.I am rooted and grounded in the Word,i don't need your cathlocisms,or whatever you call it.So go ahead big boy,let it roll,i'm still going to be here,and i got the truth,not an imitation.
-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 28, 1999.
I don't have to,all i got to do is listen to that little prayer you throw up,you know the one,i beleive it has something about mary in it.You know you really act a little foolish by all this name calling,you can run that mouth all you want to,but see i don't get intimadated by name calling or anything else you got.I am rooted and grounded in the Word,i don't need your cathlocisms,or whatever you call it.So go ahead big boy,let it roll,i'm still going to be here,and i got the truth,not an imitation.
-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 28, 1999.
Michael,I see you have a question regarding sentence structure and commas. Your understanding regarding commas don't always hold true.
Case in point. Revelation 1:4 reads: ". . .Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth." Let's see here. "Grace and peace" is distributed "from" who?
God = 1) He who is, and who was, and who is to come 2) The seven spirits before his throne 3) Jesus Christ, the faithful witness (firstborn and ruler)
You can plainly see that 2) refers to creatures that are BEFORE God's throne not ON God's throne (Rev 3:1; 8:2; 16:1; etc.), while clause 1) and 3) refer to God the Son. Therefore, commas do not always indicate an equal sign.
Second, the word "angel" in Hebrew and Greek means "messenger." The Greek Scriptures plainly reveal that God revealed Himself through angels during the Old Covenant times (while the New Covenant was revealed through the Son [John 1:17-18]). "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe . . . . For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him" (Heb 1:1-2, 2:3). "Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed whose who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him--you who have received the law that was put into effect through ANGELS but have not obeyed it" (Acts 7:52-53; Acts 7:30,35,38). It was through the mediation of angels that God appeared in the Old Covenant (Gen 16:7,11,13-14; 19:1; 22:15 32:1-2; etc.). "The law was put into effect thtough angels by a mediator" (Galations 3:19c). Most revealing is the account of Jacob wrestling a supernatural being in Genesis 32:22-32. Moses describes an account where Jacob is said to have wrestled with God and "overcome." However, Hosea 12:4 makes it clear that Jacob struggled with God through an angel: "he struggled with the angel and overcame him." Surely it was this same angel that he requested a blessing from earlier (Gen 32:26,29).
-- Jorge (JTrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 29, 1999.
Kenneth first wrote:<< So go ahead big boy,let it roll,i'm still going to be here,and i got the biggest gun. >>
But then he thought better of that, apparently, and wrote:
<< So go ahead big boy,let it roll,i'm still going to be here,and i got the truth,not an imitation. >>
Oh that's a rich one, Kenneth. Do you want to kill me, Kenneth? Is that what you were trying to say? Hey Michael, do Kenneth's fruits make him a Christian or not?
If you've got the truth, Kenneth, then by all means show us all how well you can back up your slanderous charges against the Catholic Church. Document for us, from official Catholic sources:
1) That the Church teaches Catholics to give Mary the adoration due to God.
2) That the Church teaches Catholics to worship the Pope as God.
That shouldn't be too hard, eh Mr. Big Gun? LOL LOL!
-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 29, 1999.
Kennneth, what is the use of repeating the same thing over and over again? was it Hitler who said that a lie repeated as often as you can at the end becomes true?ENRIQUE
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
Michael, on june 28 i made some remarks about your assertion that God is an angel; maybe i misunderstood you, but so far i haven't got an answer or a comment on what i posted; i would be greatly interested in your reply.ENRIQUE
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 03, 1999.
Kenneth, Michael and all others who have a problem with understanding mediation and intercession as the bible talks about it. I am sick to death to hear from protestants that the bible says there is but one intercessor between God and man , Christ. Yet Christ commands that the baptized pray prayers of intercession for their brothers and sisters. Obviously, the problem is in the definition of what is being talked about. In the first example we have one intercessor between God and man, (this is the mediation of redemption). We are saved by Christ and his sacrificial love. In the second example we have many contributing to petitions of mercy and help from Christ for our temporal needs, (this is the mediation of intercession). Two separate and different ministries going on here for two different purposes concerning the church.
-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), July 03, 1999.
Michael, here i am again. On June 28 i made some remarks about God being an angel. i'm still waiting for an answer or a commentary bout them.ENRIQUE
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 11, 1999.
Enrique, sorry for not answering sooner. I do believe i have answered the question. I was responding to Jorge about Genesis 48:15-16. Jorge was implying that in these verses there was an intercession of an angel . I was remarking that the verses state that Israel(Jacob) blesses Joseph and asks God to bless the lads, and he gives a description of God in 3 ways. If you read verse 15 and 16 and take out the description it reads: "And he blessed Joseph, and said, God (description), bless the lads...."So , yes i believe that Jacob is describing God as an "angel" or "messenger" that redeemed him from evil.
-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), July 11, 1999.
I am about 4 years late on this discussion, and I hate to beat a dead horse, if that is the case, but I would like to throw in my thoughts on the subject, for those who may still come back to this site.Keep in mind that I think that Mary was a great person, but I fail to see how she merits her own prayers. Again, a good person, who was the mother of Jesus even, but it stops there. There were many great people in the Bible: Abraham, David, John the Baptist, etc.; but none of them, including Mary are God. God is where our faith lies, and where our focus should be.
As for Mary interceeding for us when we talk to Jesus, I could have sworn that I remember reading in the Bible that that is the job of the Holy Sprit. If not, were the Christains that lived between the time that Jesus went to heaven and the time Mary died without an intercessor?
To have a certain respect for Mary is obvious, but let it stop there. To pray to her and expect her to be able to do good things for you is saying that she is doing the job of God; which if you are a true believer, is an absurd assumption.
The Holy Spirit is our intercessor and guide, Jesus is our Salvation and role model, and God is the center of our worship, our Creator, our Judge, the One who blesses and takes away(need I go on?), the buck stops there. Mary was a good person, who deserves recognition, not the prayers and expections (and worship if that is the case) that belong to God.
-- chris (caustin_01@hotmail.com), February 03, 2003.
Chris, have you ever asked another Christian to pray for you? If so, why? Why didn't you just go straight to Jesus?Has another Christian ever asked you to pray for him or her? Did you do so? Why? Why didn't you just tell that person they have to go straight to Jesus?
Our Lord wants us to love each other AND PRAY FOR each other. We ask Mary to pray for us because, as His Mother, she was closer to Him than any other human being who ever lived. Think about it! She actually carried Jesus Christ - GOD INCARNATE - inside her body for nine months! She gave birth to Him, nursed Him, rocked Him to sleep, dressed Him, fed Him --
and like any good human Mother, she knows her Son better than anyone else in the world. And we know from Scripture that her prayers get results too - remember the wedding at Cana? Read that again and ask yourself - why did He change the water into wine? He obviously wasn't planning to, and didn't really want to. What - or who - changed His mind?
-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 03, 2003.
Any Christian who is not an intercessor is not much of a Christian. Don't you pray for your family? If you do, you are an intercessor. If you don't, you are failing in your responsibilities as a Christian. Don't you ask others to pray for you? If you don't, you are an unusual Christian. The Apostles didn't hesitate to ask others to pray for them. If you do ask others to intercede for you, then what is your problem with asking Mary to do so? She is a Christian, isn't she? Only, she is in a far better place to pray for us than earthly sinners are. Just which part of the Hail Mary is it that you think Mary doesn't "merit"? The parts taken directly from the Bible (the first half of the prayer)? Or the simple request that she pray for us (a request which we could likewise make of any other Christian). Do I have to "merit" someone asking me to pray for them? Does asking someone else to pray for you somehow take something away from God?? Seems to me that asking someone to pray for you is a very good way of keeping your focus on God. You are right that Mary does not deserve the worship that belongs to God. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that very clearly, and Catholics worship no-one but God Himself. But that has nothing to do with the question of intercession.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 03, 2003.
I have found in my own walk with Jesus, that to love Him is to love His mother. It's that simple. She didn't just shrink away into some nothingness when she entered the Kindom of Heaven, her human experience of mothering Jesus automatically makes her know Him much better then I do.It automatically gives her an elevated rank, no we don't worship her at all, but she is in an exalted position.And, as the Catholic church teaches, she was given to all humanity at Calvary as our mother, we can approach her in times of weakness for special help to remain close to Jesus the Lord. As our faith in God's design grows and we gain wisdom, we begin to recognize the roles of those in the Body of Christ.
There is a time to draw on the Holy Spirit, that would be daily, that would be 24/7, but there are special moments we draw from the mother of our Lord. She's a gift too. Theresa
-- Theresa Huether (Rodntee4Jesus@aol.com), February 03, 2003.
Jesus performed His very first miracle at the request of His mother. In this, Scripture tells us of the relationship between Mary and Our Lord. She, a lowly creature, at mere request, obtains from her Son, Our Lord, favors for those in need. Scripture tells us that "all ages will call (her) blessed." Blessed is more than just a nice lady in history! Come on, now! This is God's Word! Don't water it down! So, if we Catholics wish to ask Mary's intercession with her Son, If as brothers and sisters in Christ, we, like St. John, behold her as Our Mother, If we recite the words of Luke 1, 28 over and over again, What is the problem?
-- Anna <>< (FloweroftheHour@hotmail.com), February 03, 2003.
Ooops. Just in case you didn't know, Jesus' first miracle was performed at the wedding feast of Cana, where, at Mary's request, he changed water into wine. Pax Christi...(Peace of Christ)
-- Anna <>< (FloweroftheHour@hotmail.com), February 03, 2003.
OK, one thing I forgot to mention: as a Protestant I may not know everything there is to know about how Catholics do things, so my answer may be slightly biased (uninformed may be better).I do appreciate your help in understanding this, and while I still cant say that I fully agree with the whole concept of praying to Mary, I do now see where your coming from more than I did before.
-- chris (caustin_01@hotmail.com), February 07, 2003.
Anna, do you not feel blessed among women to know the Lord Jesus ?Remember, we are just vessels. So was Mary. Christ is the treasure within
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 07, 2003.
Ahhh the dangers of personal interpretation ... "blessed among women" clearly does not mean "one blessed woman among all those who are blessed to know Jesus". It means "blessed in a way that makes Mary stand out among all other women in a unique way"; "blessed as compared with any other woman who ever existed or ever will exist". And indeed she was. Not that she would need to be in order to ask her intercession. Any Christian can ask the intercession of any other Christian.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 07, 2003.
Indeed the Apostle’s creed, Hail Mary or Rosary was created by man, not God. One must remember that Jesus was asked “How do we pray” and he answered with the famous prayer of “Our father who art in Heaven…” When Pentecost or any denomination cries that the Catholic prayers are repetitious, then those within their own religion should take a look at their own prayers. Many of them use the same prayer that Jesus taught so many years ago, over and over again. But we must take into consideration – Jesus was the one that taught this prayer, NOT MAN. Jesus also wanted everyone to use the prayer as an EXAMPLE and everyone should learn how to pray from their heart to God. If you look into history, the Catholic Church has always been plagued by corruption and grappling for power. Other denominations were in on this as well. There is no one church that is perfect and there will never be one church that is perfect as long as the hand of man is involved with it. Man is too easily influence by Satan, and Satan himself is very deceptive. Think about this, when God kicked Lucifer out of Heaven do you remember how many Angles fell to the earth with him? I am not good a quoting scriptures, nor am I defending each religious denomination. It is sad that all denominations cannot see through the rituals and just simply acknowledge God and Jesus. Mary was indeed a blessed woman, but please tell me WHERE in the scriptures of the bible does it say to pray to Mary? And another thing that no preacher from any religion has EVER been able to answer as far as I am concerned is the following:When we die Jesus says that he will come and resurrect the dead for the Judgment - then are the dead just sleeping and waiting for the Rapture? OR When we die, do our spirits leave our bodies and go somewhere, to heaven or to hell? But we are not to go to Heaven or Hell until the Day of Judgment, because that is when we stand before God as he looks through the book of life. If your name is in the book, praise God that you will never have to see Hell, however, woe to those whose name is not in the book of life for they will be cast into the lake of fire. So then my other question comes into place about Mary and any PERSON that was once walking the face of the Earth that has announced into Sainthood by MAN, I must ask, how do we know that their spirits are there to hear our prayers and then take those prayers to God? Why are they not resting like the others, waiting for Jesus to come and resurrect them? I pray for everyone that I can. I pray for Peace, healthiness, for mankind to find a new cure for diseases, for every man, woman and child to find God. My prayer is even repetitious when I think about it. But I say my prayer with all of my heart and I know that this prayer is being heard by the God in Heaven or by an Angel that God may have placed to watch over me. And last but not least, the only one that is within us and all around us is God. Therefore no Angel can be in more than one place at one time – only God. Makes one wonder that if Mary is in spirit and not resting and waiting for resurrection and she is indeed “watching over us” how she can be everywhere.
Peace and love to all and may God give us knowlege and understanding in order to avoid the deceptions of Satan.
-- runamukus (orcha45@hotmail.com), March 13, 2003.
I'm curious as to how the Catholic church reads the response from Jesus to the woman in the Gospel of Luke. Who,after hearing Jesus speak, tells Our Lord just how blessed His mother is.....??? What does the Catholic Bible say? Most of the translations say this.... (Luke 11:28) He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." Maybe it's just me but It seems Jesus was trying to tell her that His mother was in fact no more blessed than you and I. Mary was chosen to be used in an great way by God, but so were a lot of other people in the Bible, that does not mean we should exalt her.Does the church just ignore this response from Jesus or is it translated differently in the catholic Bible?
-- Keith (tristan7@flash.net), March 29, 2003.
Dear Keith,Nothing is different in the Catholic Bible. The Catholic Bible today is just as it was when the Catholic Church first compiled the Bible at the end of the 4th century. Any differences between the original Bible and Protestant Bibles have been made introduced since the 16th century.
In the Luke passage, Jesus was making use of what is commonly called "a teachable moment". A good teacher recognizes such opportunities. Sometimes a student says something that can be responded to two ways. The teacher can either give a direct response which addresses the student's comment only; or he can respond in such a way that the comment becomes an introduction to something greater, something more inclusive. The woman said "blessed is your mother". Jesus could have responded "yes, she is greatly blessed", and let it go at that. It would have been the truth, but a great teachable moment would have been ignored. Instead, Jesus used her comment to reveal a greater truth. He doesn't deny that his mother is greatly blessed, but he goes further and uses this opportunity to reveal to the woman and the others gathered there a great Christian truth - that everyone who hears the word of God and obeys it can be greatly blessed too! In so doing, he teaches a universal concept, rather than simply a truth about His mother. We know however that Mary DID hear the word of God and obeyed it in perfect humility and submission, and therefore, according to Jesus' response, she was greatly blessed. But it was not just the perfection of her response that made Mary especially blessed. It was also the nature and magnitude of the role she was called to play in God's plan of salvation. Others, as you said, were used in great ways by God, and we do honor them for the roles they played. But only one human was called by God to be the physical channel of the Messiah's entrance into the world. For that unique and essential role, we honor and thank Mary. We honor her more than we honor others who played lesser roles in the plan of salvation. And together with Mary and all the other people of God, we adore and worship her Son, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Chjrist.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.
Hi All.I onced asked if there was crying in Heaven. The implication is that those souls in Heaven do not feel sorrow for our sins because those souls in Heaven unltimately see our salvation and damnation. Afterall, Heaven is paradise. This brings me to consider that those souls in Heaven would not have the burden of dealing with our salvation or needs of the flesh. It is just so difficult for me to think that Mary would continue to suffer burden with our sufferings. This is why we on earth must come together in prayer because it is our own burden that we bring to Jesus. All of the Saints suffered there burdens on earth, surely not in Heaven too?
Please help me to understand these things clearl
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2003.
Those in heaven do not experience any suffering. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes Heaven as "the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness".Those in heaven do not foresee our eventual salvation or damnation. Otherwise, there would be no point in their interceding for us. Why intercede for someone, if you can already see that that person will not be saved? Or for that matter, if you can already see that that person WILL be saved? In heaven, our eyes will be opened to a great many things that we cannot see or understand now. But we will not become omniscient. We will not become equal to God in any way. Therefore, there will still be a great deal that we cannot see or understand. If the saints could foresee the future, they would know when the end of time would come. Yet Jesus said that no-one except the Father knows that, not even the angels (Matt 25:35-36) So, if the saints cannot foresee the end of it all, there is no reason to think that they can foresee the final destiny of any individual still living on earth. Which is why they continue to present our prayers before the throne of God, as described in Rev 5:8.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 29, 2003.
Hi Paul.That makes sense.
I didn't even realize it, but I was actually conforming my thoughts to the idea of predestination.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 29, 2003.
Paul, While I understand your answer and appreciate the fact that you responded, I can't help but point out that your explanation misses the "teachable moment" that Jesus used. It is pretty clear that He makes the point of saying "rather" or "more blessed" (depending on versions) to the woman to prevent her from missing the fact that He is correcting her. He could have easily said that His mother was in deed great and to be exalted but He does not. He clearly wants to make sure His mother is not seen as the reason for the wonderful and incredible teachings the woman just heard. Jesus did this all through his ministry to make a corrective statement.He wants the woman to understand that it takes greater faith to believe and follow without having been spoken to by angels and KNOW that you are talking and living with (raising) the Lord of Lords. WE have not had that incredible opportunity that Mary and the disciples had. Seeing and touching the Lord physically.Anyway, there is no doubt that Mary was used in a great way and she is to be looked upon with much respect. I still have yet to find a good explanation from my Catholic friends as to why so much praise and adoration is placed upon Mary. I have yet to find in any of the letters to the early church any instruction of exalting anyone who walked the earth other than Jesus. I have and love many Catholic family and friends and I respect there faith. I just wish I understood better. It would seem that you could be excommunicated from the Catholic church for repeating these words of Christ?(Luke 11:28)
Much love and respect, I just happend to see this debate on Mary's place in Christianity and thought I would ask the Question.Until someone gives me a good reason other than tradition of man I will not be praying the Hail Mary.
-- Keith (tristan7@flash.net), March 29, 2003.
Hi Keith,If I might add a little note to Paul's post, the woman who approached Jesus and spoke complimentary terms about His mother was saying "How blessed are the breasts that nursed you and womb that bore you!" She didn't say, "How blessed is Your mother!" Jesus' response to her was to draw away from Mary's physical attributes, for every woman had a womb and breasts...What was it that made Mary "blessed?" It was that she perfectly conformed to the Will of the Father. Jesus honored His Mother. If He didn't, He would have broken the commandment, "Honor Your Father and Mother." Jesus didn't break the commandments.
From the cross, He entrusted His Mother to His Beloved Apostle. We, His beloved brothers and sisters, also feel that special entrustment, and honor Mary as our Mother, too.
Some may see it as idolatry, but we know Who we adore. Adoration is reserved for God alone.
You don't have to pray the Hail Mary if you don't want to...but would you mind reciting Luke 1:28 & 42? You'd only be reciting Scripture...Give it a try, each day, if possible. It can't hurt!
Pax Christi.
-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), March 29, 2003.
Catholics do not worship Mary. Catholics worship the Most Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son/Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit. Catholics honor Mary. In fact, all of Heaven honors Mary.PRAYER/ACT OF REPARATION FOR BLASPHEMIES AGAINST THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY
Most Glorious Virgin Mary, Mother of God and our Mother, turn thine eyes in pity upon us, miserable sinners; we are sorely afflicted by the many evils that surround us in this life, but especially do we feel our hearts break within us upon hearing the dreadful insults and blasphemies uttered against thee, O Virgin Immaculate. O how these impious sayings offend the infinite Majesty of God and of His only- begotten Son, Jesus Christ!
How they provoke His indignation and give us cause to fear the terrible effects of His vengeance! Would that the sacrifice of our lives might avail to put an end to such outrages and blasphemies; were it so, how gladly we should make it, for we desire, O most holy Mother, to love thee and honor thee with all our hearts, since this is the will of God. And just because we love thee, we will do all that is in our power to make thee honored and loved by all men.
In the meantime do thou, our merciful Mother, the supreme comforter of the afflicted, accept this our act of reparation which we offer thee for ourselves and for all our families, as well as for all who impiously blaspheme thee, not knowing what they say. Do thou obtain for them from Almighty God the grace of conversion, and thus render more manifest and more glorious thy kindness, thy power and thy great mercy.
May they join with us in proclaiming thee blessed among women, the Immaculate Virgin and most compassionate Mother of God. Amen.
WHY DO WE REFER TO MARY AS : THE MOTHER OF GOD ?
Mary is the Mother of God because it was from her that the Second Divine Person took His human nature. Mary gave to Jesus what every mother gives her child -- flesh and blood. But her son is not only human but Divine. Jesus Christ, whose mother she is, is God; therefore she is, in fact, the Mother of God, as The Church has always believed. *
WHY DID THE ANGEL GABRIEL GREET MARY, “HAIL, FAVORED ONE! THE LORD IS WITH YOU” ?
The Angel Gabriel greeted Mary thus because, since she was destined to be the Mother of God, Mary is the most highly privileged of all God’s creatures. She is the only human person who was preserved from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her conception. We call this her Immaculate Conception. Moreover, so perfectly did Mary cooperate with God’s Plan for her that she is the holiest of all His creatures. Throughout all her life she was never guilty of the slightest sin or failure to do God’s Will. *
WHY DOES MARY MERIT THE TITLE : MOTHER OF THE CHURCH ?
This title, as well as most of Our Lady’s other titles, stems from three basic facts : 1. It was she from whom the Second Divine Person took his human nature. She is the Mother of Jesus, our brother, and therefore the Mother of all people. 2. By her complete identification with and acceptance of the offering Jesus made of Himself on the cross, Mary cooperated in our Redemption, thereby acquiring an added claim to the title of Mother of The Church. 3. All the Graces which Jesus won for us by His death on the cross and which He applies to the members of His Church are distributed through her Maternal Intercession. *
WHY IS MARY CALLED : QUEEN OF HEAVEN AND EARTH ?
Certainly, in the full and strict meaning of the term, only Jesus Christ, the God-Man, is King; but Mary, too, as Mother of the Divine Christ, as His associate in the Redemption, in His struggle with His enemies and His final Victory over them, has a share, though in a limited analogous way, in His Royal Dignity. *
Mary’s role in The Church is inseparable from her union with Jesus Christ and flows directly from it. The Church rightly honors Mary with special devotion. This special devotion Differs essentially from the Adoration which is given to God The Son and equally to God The Father and God The Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this Adoration.
In Mary, we contemplate what The Church already Is in her mystery on her own “pilgrimage of faith,” and what she will be in the Heavenly Homeland at the end of her journey. **
* Life In Christ In Accordance With The Catechism Of The Catholic Church
** Catechism Of The Catholic Church
-- Catholic to Protestant to Finally Catholic, Thank God! (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 09, 2003.
No where does the bible say that prayer to the saints is worshipping the saints. We are supposed to honor our father and mother. Is that worship? Of course not, because our father and mother are not God. When we honor God, that is worship, because we are honoring God. Now the bible commands us to honor other men. 1Ti 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching; It is not worship to honor men, because they are not God. It is not worship to honor our father and mother, because they are not God. It is not worship to honor Mary, because she is not God.But, the word of God does command us to give double honor to those who Thus, since Mary is a handmaid of the Lord, she served the Lord even more than the elders. Thus, she must be honored. Since we must imitate Jesus, rather than Satan, since all Satan did was evil, and all Jesus did was good, then we must honor Mary, since Jesus was perfectly obedient and honored His mother, Mary. Satan did not honor Mary, or anyone who served the Lord. What is your policy? Who do you imitate? If you honor Mary, then you are imitating Jesus. If you refuse to honor Mary, then you are imitating Satan. Notice that to enter heaven, we must honor those who serve the Lord. ------------- Psalms 15:1 ------------- 1 ¶ A Psalm of David. O LORD, who shall sojourn in thy tent? Who shall dwell on thy holy hill? . . . 4... but who honors those who fear the LORD;
Thus, if we fail to honor those who fear the Lord, we cannot enter heaven with Him, and we are imitating Satan, who never honored anyone who served for feared the Lord, and we are not imitating Jesus who honored His mother perfectly.
Further, the bible says over and over, that whatever we do to the least of the members of the Church, we do to Jesus. Remember when Paul was knocked to the ground, and he said who are you, and Jesus said, I am the Lord who you are persecuting. Yet Paul was only persecuting the members of the Church. But the members of the Church are the body of Christ. Thus, whatever we do to the least of these, we do to Jesus. So when we honor members of the Church, we are honoring Jesus. If we fail to honor those who fear the Lord, then we are failing to honor Jesus himself.
-- DENNIS DUREL (dcdurel@yahoo.com), January 21, 2004.
I like your well-reasoned Catholic presentation, Sir. Excellent!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), January 22, 2004.