OT - Kosovo mass graves - Something wrong with picture

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Does anybody but me see something wrong with the pictures widely shown of the mass graves in Kosovo?


Who put the grave markers up? The Serbs who slaughtered them? Not likely. They DID likely cover them up, as we *perhaps* saw from satellite photos. But GRAVE MARKERS to advertise the slaughter??? I think not.

So who did it? Perhaps survivors snuck back to the area to mark the site where friends and relatives had fallen. If so, why just birth and death years, why not names? If you want to honor the dead wouldn't you above all else want to put the names on the graves so family members could find them someday? Or if you didn't know them, why not just blank crosses or markers. If you didn't know them you wouldn't likely know their birth years anyway. For that matter, even if you DID know them, would you know their birth years? And if you were a survivor who snuck back to a mass grave, how would you know who was buried where?

And did you notice that all the markers were neatly lettered... all the same? Not scratched into the posts, but boldly lettered and easy to read on camera.

Now I just heard Joyce Riley refer to the reason she joined the military in the first place - the story from the 15 y.o. that Saddam was throwing babies out of incubators (do you remember it?, I do vaguely). She said that it never happened, that it was a story put out by an ad agency hired by Bush. Then she mentioned that Clinton has hired an ad agency to work on the Kosovo situation. You don't suppose.....????

http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/9905/end0524.ram [listen at 1:18:18.0 to 1:20:00.0]

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), June 14, 1999



They reported that the bodies were reburied when the mass grave was discovered. Each body was given a marker (ie. 1/300, 2/300, etc).


-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), June 14, 1999.

Linda, I commend you for your skeptical inquiry. Surely it was only a matter of time before the media came up with a new version of the Belgian babies of WWI. Many have made critical analyses of claims of atrocities in WWII. In an honest attempt to separate truth from war time propaganda they have concluded that many supposed crimes against humanity simply never occurred. But I should be careful here. Many of our visitors to this forum live in Europe and Australia where they don't enjoy the same freedom of speech we Yanks have. Even visiting websites that question certain historical fantasies can land one in jail under their "hate crimes" laws.

-- yeah right (not@thistime.com), June 14, 1999.

TECH32 said: "They reported that the bodies were reburied when the mass grave was discovered. Each body was given a marker (ie. 1/300, 2/300, etc)."

Watch for the coverage on TV. The markers I saw clearly looked like birth/death years [in two digits - the only flimsy link to this forum]. For example 77/99, 75/99, 67/99, 71/99.

And why if you are reburying bodies in a mass grave would you bother with individual markers if you don't know the individuals names? If all you are concerned with is a number, post an "unknown soldier" marker that states how many bodies are buried there.

And WHO did they say reburied the bodies? NATO troops? The bodies were already buried right? So on their way to Pristina to stabilize a very tense situation they stopped to dig them up and re-bury them? Wouldn't there have been plenty of time to investigate evidence of possible war crimes AFTER the situation was stabilized? They had supposedly been dead for 2 months.. a few more days or weeks wouldn't change the evidence much. Sounds more like an opportunity for a Kodak picture spot to me.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), June 14, 1999.

Wow. Had me going there for a moment. Not just one troll, but two?

No, really, Klintler murdered those innocent people. Why do you think they call his VP ... Gore? These two blood thirsty ghouls just needed an excuse for this insane war. Yeah, that's the ticket, that is what is going on here. Thanks a lot Linda. I too commend your observancy.

-- Uhm... (jfcp81a@prodigy.com), June 14, 1999.

Never trust the King.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), June 14, 1999.

Nor the people who sit at his table!

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), June 14, 1999.

Speaking of Kodak picture spot:

In several of the pics there are obvious fresh flowers which could have been added within hours of the picture session. But in a few of the pics you can see grass/weeds on the graves. If the soldiers (or anyone else)had just reburied them, they might have added flowers... but weeds?

Note the changing numbers 81, 100, nearly 100, at least 99 - esp. on the pics of British Army Capt. Andy Phipps. Same site.. same man.. different numbers. Photos taken Jun 14 10:21 AM EDT [81 graves], 6:41 AM EDT [at least 99 graves], 9:11 PM EDT [nearly 100 graves]. These are AP stories.. Reuters has yet another number - 91. If those grave markers are just counters, why can't the people reading them agree on the numbers?

Now I'll grant you IF the number of bodies HAPPENS to be 99, then the markers could just be counters. No mention though of any reburying.. and no pictures of it. And if they DID dig them up, wouldn't they have been concerned with obtaining evidence of war crimes? Wouldn't we have heard the gory [or is that Gore-y] details to make our case stronger that Slobo is a bad bad person?

Note the number of photographers on the shoot too: Russell Boyce, Tim Ockenden, Santiago Lyon, (the AP pool), probably not counting the CNN photographers.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), June 14, 1999.

Oops... the link got dropped. Here's 2 pages of news photos, most of them of the mass graves:


click on "next 10 matches" for the second page

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), June 14, 1999.


My man!

wish that the population ww were as wise...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 14, 1999.

I really have a hard time with this crap... 800,000 people wnet for a walk in the countryside, and decided in mass to cook up a story about genocide along the way....

Of course the butchers would do everything to cover up their work, dumping victims in real cemetaries, etc.., where better to hide ecess bodies then in a grave?

I suppose at the end of WWII, when the first evidence of the horrors began to surface, you guys would have seen that as a US government conspiricy to???

I thought this was about y2k, and yes, the elite may be trying to avert panic, hoping for a silver bullet, but these post do nothing but convince pollys wandering in on threads like these that we're all refugees from Waco...

I've said enough, this kind of crap should be below my attention...

-- Carl (slowlygi@stubborn.com), June 15, 1999.

Carl, you don't know the truth about Waco?

-- number six (Iam_not_a_number@hotmail.com), June 15, 1999.


Would you go for a walk if 750 planes were bombing your county?

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), June 15, 1999.

Everyone- Hate crimes have existed throughout history. My stepfather who is French saw his own country hand over citizens to Hitler's death machine. Among them were his mother, father, and sister. They were all killed in Auschwitz. He and his brother managed to escape to Isreal, where they were made to feel not so welcome by the British, and later settled in the U.S. At the time I believe there were many countries that believed these were "alleged" atrocities. Have you ever seen photos of wheelbarrows full of "alleged" victims? The Jerusalem Post maintains an excellant archive of examples. My point is that 1) I do believe that this happened and cannot believe that bastard Milosovich is allowed to walk the streets 2) Do not read so much into the markers, as I would think they were meant to mark these individual, valuable lives, needlessly and senselessly taken.

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), June 15, 1999.

I wonder, if we do finally eradicate ourselves, will any of the other animals miss us...?

-- Carl (slowlygi@stubborn.com), June 15, 1999.

Carl, I couldn't agree with you more, and I'm not even a Clinton fan. Gia, there are people right in this country, right now, saying that the Holocaust didn't happen. They would say almost anything to discredit the Jews, and no, I'm not Jewish. In fact, when the Allies arrived at the death camps and saw the horror, Eisenhower had thousands of pictures taken to document the crimes, saying that if there wasn't proof, it was simply so overwhelming that later on people would say it didn't happen. That showed great foresight on his part.

Now there are groups saying it didn't happen. Usually they have skin heads, bizarre tattoos, assault weapons, and bellow a lot about "this country going to hell," while they waving the flag and calling themselves Christians. They are usually suffering from a terminal case of jingoism.

Some people would rather see a conspiracy or communist or socialist or athiest or liberal or stereotype under every bush than face the real problems at hand.

Carl, like you, I've said too much, "this kind of crap should be below my attention...."

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 15, 1999.

To Carl and Gia. I am NOT saying the Holocaust didn't happen. I am NOT saying those weren't REAL refugees fleeing Kosovo. I am not even saying that Slobo hasn't committed atrocities. I'm only saying what I said... it seems to me that THOSE photos of the mass grave were cooked up as a photo-op. Remember we have a "Wag The Dog" Slick Willy for a fearless leader. He apparently HAS retained the services of an ad agency. To do what?

Look at the evidence, decide for yourself, but don't try to confuse the issue by saying this has anything to do with Hitler.


http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/9905/end0524.ram [listen at 1:18:18.0 to 1:20:00.0]


-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), June 15, 1999.

Gia - you don't understand the depths Clinton (and his aids) have already gone to in manipulating "photo op's".

On the beach at Normandy - his aids gathered rocks, in full view of the media, placed a pile of rocks in the sand at water's edge, but the media only photographed Clinton walking along, then re-arranging them into a cross.

Also at the Normandy trip, his aids knocked over a grave cross, then scheduled Clinton to "straighten it" back out and meditate reflectively (in front of the camera) at the site.

During the Ron Brown funeral procession, he - in one step, once the camera was sighted, went from joking and laughing with his aids to crying mournfully.

The Gore's are no less manipulative. In South America, after the hurricane disaster, Mrs Gore tried twice to "shovel mud and wipe her brow" according to the script - it just so happened the first time wasn't at the right spot for the TV cameras. ____

Here, WHY would any forensic specialist - who must investigate the graves themselves - which took weeks earlier at other sites in Bosnia - allow the graves to dug up, disturbed, and the bodies reburied. The whole thing makes no sense - other than the most callous of propaganda.

This, by the way, does NOT say there were NOT murders or rapes - these not doubt occurred (about two thousand before Clinton used these deaths to justify his war, then possibly several tens of thousand AFTER the bombing started). It does indicate the mass media is again following their fearless leader = hook,line, and sinker.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), June 15, 1999.

All this hoopla about photo opportunities! Mr. Cook, can we discuss astrologers running the Regan White House? And those wern't sweet nothings Nancy was whispering in Ronnie's ears. They were directions.

Just a little refresher course for all you Clintdong bashers.

-- Anti-chainsaw (Tree@huger.com), June 15, 1999.

Carla and Gilda, I do not deny the Allied holocaust against innoccent German civilians and POW's. I also do not deny the Jewish Bolshevik holocaust against Russian Christians. Tell me, do you still believe in those stories about the bars of soap? Or the one about Elsie Koch and the lampshades made out of human skin? You two have obviously accepted the propaganda of the Wiesnethal Center and the other hoaxsters.

-- yeah right (not@thistime.com), June 15, 1999.

But the astrologers were not being paid by the Chinese....the lawyers, and Hollywood. They were not hired by Tyson Food, by Central American drug dealers, and by (By the way, just what did they "recommend - schedules, a few times - it seems, not political decisions - but your dear Miss Hillary can run illegal closed door hearing on medical issues affecting 1/7 the national economy, while lying about it, and be applauded by her adoring lapdogs.)

Reno can kill many dozen, can cover up investigations and stop others to protect her administration, but is applauded by you who curse Nixon for misusing 1 FBI file and lying about the Watergate coverup. (That's all he did - lie about a coverup - while not under oath and not in front of Congress. But Clinton gets a free ride for perjury and treason? And Hillary orders 1100 FBI files be reviewed and retyped into a White House database. And Hillary orders detectives be used to threaten and intimidate witnessess against her hencemen. And Hillary orders the FBI and IRS investigate and makeup evidence against White House staff members who were iconveniently in the way of FOH profiteers? And Hillary orders several hundred IRS audits of Republican, conservative, and independent charitable groups?

You claim to be anti-gun, anti-crime, but Clinton arranges for tens of thousands of Chinese Army assault rifles be unloaded and sold in Los Angelos - after these were identified and specifically forbidden by lower level (honest) bureacrats? Or are only US honest citizens - who could not legally buy these weapons anyway - subject to gun confiscation?

The only people the ATF and FBI have murdered during the Clinton regime have been those gun owners and sellers who have been "set up" by agents who sold them the illegal weapons in a sting operation ..... they have not managed to stop any Chinese weapons from being imported. Clinton has sold our nuclear weapons to China, now these weapons are aimed at the West Coast, but you continue to adore these people?

Your hypocrisy and abject hatred of those who are right is not becoming of you.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), June 15, 1999.

Yeah Right- I don't suppose you saw 20/20 the other night, story about the Bayer company working with Mengele experimenting on Auschwitz children. Said they were part of a larger industry and not a company entity at the time (lie) and so bore no responsibility to compensate victims. Notice they are not denying the charge. My family= Personal experiance= TRUTH.You can never destroy that.

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), June 15, 1999.

Don't watch commercial TV. Didn't see it.

I repeat, the crimes are real, the tragedies cannot be trivialized - but were made many times worse by Clinton's desire for his legacy war.

You cannot rely on what is photographed - if the truth can be found about these graves, you would need to see who created the graves, who was buried their (and when), who cleaned up the site before the photographers, who helped these people, who "found" the site, and who "told" the news media to go photograph the site with the markers cleaned up and the dirt freshly disturbed.

Hint - You will not get this information from CBS, ABC, NBC, or CNN. You will not get this from the AP and NY Times writers who were told to go to this site and make the photograph. You will not get it from Washington Post - they are too busy covering up Hillary's incomptence and corruption.

What I am indicating is that Clinton will use (has used) any propaganda, any photo-op he can, any emotional link he can darg up to manipulate you. He has no morals, no spine, no feelings - only what he can use to make himself look good. And, with a compliant media fawing on him and prmulagating his efforts, he has suceeded in large parts.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), June 15, 1999.

Well, since everyone else seems inclined to respond to Linda's trollish comments, I guess I must also add my two cents.

Linda, several reports and interviews with escapees indicated over a month ago that the Serbs were anxiuos to cover at least some of their atrocities. There were many reports by survivors that the surviviors were required to bury the dead (at gunpoint). Sometimes, they were even required to unearth those buried in a mass grave so that the dead could be re-buried individually.

I think we will discover the graves contain exactly what the refugees reported - Albanian men 13 to 63 years old. Now, I cannot believe that the refugees would lie about these events. I cannot beleive anyone would lie to cover the asses of NATO forces or anyone else who slaughtered family members. No, it was the Serbs who did this. And it would be quite reasonable for terrified family members to post at least some marker over the grave site. It would be natural for those left behind (not everyone fled) to spread or plant flowers.

Tech32 was right. Trolls are everywhere. And I must agree, continued support for this sick thread surely hurts the efforts of other good folks on this forum who are trying to spread the message of awareness and preparedness. Beleive or not, 99% of Americans are repulsed by such BS. Come on, folks, if you are truely doomers, do not let your political persuasion and Clinton hatred blind you tho this fact. Let these disgusting OT posts die a quick death. Puleeeeaaase? Moderators?


-- Uhm... (jfcp81a@prodigy.com), June 15, 1999.

Linda reminds me of the "good Germans" during WW2 who stood by and did nothing while genocide took place all around them.

-- cd (artful@dodger.com), June 15, 1999.

Here you go Linda -- another picture for you. I guess you think they burned these 20 people for a photo op, huh?

And Robert...defending Nixon's use of FBI files...shame on you.

-- a (a@a.a), June 15, 1999.

Mr. Cook,

Yada yada yada. Arms for hostages, Ollie North, Haldeman, Erlichman, Mitchell and Dean....... ad infinitum. Only difference is Clintdong and Billary got caught with their pants down... literally!!!

-- Anti-chainsaw (Tree@hugger.com), June 15, 1999.

Defending? hardly - misusing this file (emphasizing "one") was illegal and Colson went to jail for it. Correctly and properly went to jail.

Now, Hillary read, transcribed, and kept 1100+ FBI files - and "had no memory" of even hiring the ex-bouncer who collected them. But the media ignores it in their quest to sanitfy her for senator.

That, dear lady, is NOT defending an illegal action. It is pointing out that the media is ignoring a far greater evil. But the media wants to ignore Clinton's crimes - their "adoration" of his ideas blinds them to his crimes - those known, those suspected but unproven, those known but ignored and not investigated, and those yet unrevealed.

As here, in this thread, we have uniformly condemned the murders occurring by the Serb Communists - while merely pointing out that Clinton's war killed thousands of Serb civilians whose blood will be remembered with hatred.

This "photo-op" - as the one included above - are similar propaganda pieces. True, real photographs of evil that has actually occurred - nobody here has ever said it (Yugoslavia's murders) have not occurred. They have been repeating themselves since the 1300's.

But this admitted Evil does not excuse Clinton's explotation of these murders for political gain. This little war has cost already thousands of Serbian and Albanian lives, and over 4 billion dollars; it has strengthened the prestige of Russia among the Serbs, and has cost the irreplaceable reputation of NATO as a defensive force that saved Europe from Communism. It likely has badly damaged US military power, and now is indirectly threatening South Korea and Tawain by weakening our forces already cut in half.

It may, however, have gained NYC votes.

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), June 15, 1999.

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