To be perfectly frank, one of the strategies that has occurred to a couple of us is the american express card! Even though one of the purported safeguards is to get out of debt. That prospect seems a little preposterous due to the probable domino effect, what good will being out of debt be if everything goes? So has anyone else had the unethical thought of cranking the credit cards (without the thought of paying) if the news starts to turn so severe that those that have had their ears to the ground are given a short window before the stampede? God please don't tell me this is not a moral thought, I already know!! Respectfully, D.B.

-- David Butts (dciinc@aol.com), June 14, 1999

Answers

One of the foremost purposes in my preparations is seeking peace of mind for next year. Running up debt, especially debt I hoped not to pay back, would be counter to that effort.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), June 14, 1999.

Mr. Butts,

great minds think alike - the US has the lowest savings rate and the highest debt ratio for joe public consumers, also the highest bankruptcy rates, and usuric interest rates on credit cards approaching 30% in many cases. JQP is literally enslaved by debt and taxes, foisted on him since the first student credit cards at the age of 17/18/19... the bankers are simply gonna reap what they have sown...

I say screw the banks - do what ya gotta do.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 14, 1999.

In 1973 I joined a church called the Worldwide Church of God, Herbert W. Armstrong. Prior to that he had been telling the Church that the world would end in 1970. With this info, and the "believers" faith in Armstrong, many in the church did exactly what you are thinking of doing, including second mortgages on their homes etc. When the end had come and gone the people were stuck with huge debt which they never figured on paying back. Needless to say many of them were forced into bankruptcy, many lost their homes. When I heard of the fiasco I thought the idea was a little on the shady side, not that I care for the corrupt banks.

Y2k may take us down in a very short time and the banks are toast, or it may be, as some say, like a rolling brownout of the System. If it takes a while and bill collectors come to your door you'll have to pay.

Just my opinion. I am getting debt free as best I can.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), June 14, 1999.

That would be stealing. But if it was debt you have had for a few years and it was wiped out, great, but to make debt just to get something for nothing is not nice.

-- Carol (glear@usa.net), June 14, 1999.

If our purpose is to simply "survive," regardless of "how," with little or no concern for the values that are appropriate to being human, jutifying whatever we choose to do based upon what others have first chosen to do (such as those pesky "immoral" bankers), then we need only obtain weapons and much ammunition. If our worst fears materialize then those that embrace the above philosophy shall find fertile grounds upon which they may prey - much in the manner of animals.

If, on the other hand, "how" we have chosen to survive is important, then to betray those values when it is seemingly to our "advantage" to do so, (such as stealing from others when presented with the opportunity) without regard for that which we know to be "right," will, in my judgment, betray the purpose for which survival is of value.

To properly survive what may be coming, one needs to not only see oneself as capable, but more importantly, worthy. In the same vein, one must not only be prepared, but proud at having done so.

Engaging in dishonesty, resulting in theft is, in my mind, not the way to feel worthy, proud, nor in any appropriate manner while trying to maintain or pursue that which makes life worth living......

With respect,

-- Dave Walden (wprop@concentric.net), June 14, 1999.

Folks,

you misunderstand the question - he was asking about LEVERAGE. Now you can do a lot with leverage, pros do it every day, it's what makes commerce work.

Now we are constantly bombarded every day by bankers that we have nothing to fear, keep your money in the banks, business as usual.

So you have a 10k credit limit on your card, you max it out, you buy preps that will do good for you and yours. If it's a BITR then you will still have your job, you pay off your debt, the bankers make some usuric money - they are happy.

If it goes imagic you have a 10k head start. If everything collapses don't you see it has not made one iota of difference whether you borrowed this money or not. The money is gone, the system is gone, the bankers are gone. End of story.

You guys are not thinking this through.

If I owned a property now I would sell it as fast as possible for the same reasons. I see a very high chance of a recession/depression/loss of jobs/income/ a plummet in property prices.

If you had LEVERAGED your property position you would have cash and would be king. Think about it, quit the phoney moralising.

All this is a no brainer - it's called maximising your play - think hard about this, this is not a game. This type of thread has been discussed many timesbefore - check the archives.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 14, 1999.

Andy - If you believed that, you'd sell your $3,000 bicycle. And you miss the point of David Butts' thread - the "unethical thought of cranking the credit cards (without the thought of paying)". It is important to some of us not to live that way.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), June 14, 1999.

max out your cards with cash advances. But Gold, silver and withdraw the cash . Keep the money and coin in your fire proof box. Hide it well. Then when the S.H.T.F. the dollars will become scarce. you will then be able to buy what you want for cash at half price. Make sure you use all the cash up.

after that when the FDIC pours all of their printed monopoly money on the market to reliquify the economy use you gold to pay off the debt. one or two gold coins should be enough.

Its all a matter of being ahead of the supply demand curve instead of being behind. And if by chance things don't hit the fan then put the cash back in the bank and pay back the credit card co.

BTW, this is no different then what day traders are doing in buying heir inter net stocks.

-- banker (i'm@greedy .sob), June 14, 1999.

Andy,

While Dave used the word leverage in the topic, the strategy that he described is not leverage, and calling it leverage in capital letters does not make it so. Other posters in this thread did correctly understand the question, and quite obviously did think it through.

BTW, fractional reserve banking notwithstanding, most of the money that borrowers get from banks is money that was entrusted to the banks by its depositors or other creditors. Therefore, most of the money stolen from a bank is stolen, albeit indirectly, from its depositors or other creditors.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), June 14, 1999.

What about the people who dont think? What about anything goes, Ill ask for forgiveness on Sunday? How many people out their laugh with Homer Simpson instead of at him? The list is endless, I think the wisest move anyone can make is preparing to deal with these people on the same level that they are prepared to deal with you.

The world needs checks and balances, if the financial institutions have a lesson to learn from their current lending practices, so be it, history will be written and life will go on. New policies are made because of current market conditions. Its time deal with the cards-at-hand. Do what you think you should do, just make sure you think about what others are willing do you. That kind of thought will have you charging in no time

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), June 14, 1999.

David wasn't asking for ethical judgements.

I think the idea is very risky, to say the least. Nobody knows how bad things will get. To me, a global depression seems likely; while an end to bill collectors seems unlikely. In that case, if you borrow a great deal now you will have to pay it all back with interest next year. And next year you'll be hurting for money ALOT more than you are now. I can't believe how much people complain about not being able to afford preps now. I haven't made enough money in the last 10 years to be at the taxable level. I'm sure I could have been on food stamps or medicaid or whatever if I'd have whined to the agencies in charge of catering to whiners.

If you're worried about Y2K stop spending your money on anything but Y2K preps and the bare necessities of life and maintaining your job. Get rid of your cable and your TV, your stereo, etc. Trade your nice home in for a dive; your nice car in for a econobox, etc. Stop going out, eating out, calling long distance, buying new clothes or furniture. Stop eating meat, smoking, drinking, etc. Don't buy books, go to movies, rent videos, etc. Don't let go of a single dollar unless it is necessary for your survival or is an investment towards making more money or is for Y2K prep. Drop out of school if you're in it (or make your college kids drop out).

Anyone that does that, even if they are at minimum wage, will find they have plenty of money for preps. No need to use credit, whether you plan to pay it back or not. Consumer credit is only necessary to finance things that shouldn't be bought in the first place.

If you can't bring yourself to do all or any of those things that is fine too. But you should realize that any credit you use now, scam or legit, isn't in order to prepare for Y2K but to maintain your present lifestyle while preparing.

-- Gus (y2kk@usa.net), June 14, 1999.

Leaving aside the moral issues (as requested), this scenario works well only at either end of the scale. If the system is virtually unaffected and you can repay your debt, or if it goes down and the record of your debt is lost. I consider it far more likely that the system will survive, barely. IOW, many people are going to lose their jobs, their houses and those who keep theirs will be earning less, even comparitively. In that situation, being in debt is the worst thing to do to yourself. Moreover, wasn't there some news about tougher bankruptcy laws soon to be passed? You may find yourself responsible for that debt regardless of how badly things go for you. To me, it sounds like a sure way to turn a societal 5-7 into a personal 10.

-- Tricia the Canuck (tricia_canuck@hotmail.com), June 14, 1999.

The question is not whether you will do this or not, the question is when? The key is timing. Everyone on this forum is looking for the same thing. The reason I read this stuff everyday is because I want that window to be in my favor. When? When and how will you know that things are bad enough to max out your cards. What are those events that will drive you to spend like a maniac? How will you know the stampede is beginning? How much of a window will we have? What will you do if there are no signs of panic? Will you still max it out in December after Christmas? This is one big gigantic poker game. Call or raise, it's up to you.

-- Doc Mortar (xit007@email.com), June 14, 1999.

I have seen this issue debated numerous times on other Y2K forums. There are certainly moral issues involved, as well as just trying to make sure that you don't put yourself into the position of where the world as we know it HAS to end for you to come out ahead.

You NEED surival preps for Y2K, which depending on what your situation is, may indeed be only attainable via credit card debt. But one thing is for sure: you need to get those preps NOW, not later, because you cannot count on Joe Sixpack continuing to sleep until Jan 1.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), June 14, 1999.

"This is one big gigantic poker game. Call or raise, it's up to you." One of the best line I have ever read on the subject...

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), June 14, 1999.

Put some cash in the old iron box any way you can....if you're wrong...pay it back. Our cash went to debt, relocation and preps. We intend to fill the safe and "wait and see". Do what you need to, just don't burn any bridges...get it?

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 14, 1999.

Andy - If you believed that, you'd sell your $3,000 bicycle. And you miss the point of David Butts' thread - the "unethical thought of cranking the credit cards (without the thought of paying)". It is important to some of us not to live that way.

Brooks,

sold the porsche - it is now a pile of gold eagles.

bought a coupla cdale bikes - could come in handy when petrol dries up.

butts talked about amex - that is a charge card (usually) - if you borrow 10k they want it back 30 days later - that would be stealing, yes...

ccards are a different matter - just do what you feel comfortable with, i've switched jobs and pretty much cashed or will soon my 401k, will take the tax consequences if and when the irs comes a lookin next year - not a problem., if they are around they will get paid, if not i have a head start,

check the archives for my moral views on this :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 14, 1999.

--Banker, that's my strategy! Valid e-mail if you would care to compare notes.

-- anotherbanker (dwood@southwind.net), June 14, 1999.

--Banker, that's my strategy! Valid e-mail if you would care to compare notes.

-- anotherbanker (dwood@southwind.net), June 14, 1999.

my strategy too - give or take - :)))

valid e-mail, let's compare notes!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 14, 1999.

I have about ten credit cards with a total of $25,000 dispersed amongst them all. I pay an average of 4% annual interest

-- banker is at (hokanson@teleport.com), June 14, 1999.

I have about ten credit cards with a total of $25,000 dispersed amongst them all. I pay an average of 4% annual interest on the balance. Thanks to introductory rates I'm able to roll the balance from one card to another as the introductory rate is about to expire.

I've had card companies calling be up on the phone to offer me this free money. the trick is to stay ahead of the interest rate game and to not spend the money other wise you will have to find cash to pay off the dept. If cash become king then I can unload it to buy my final prep items at half price cash.

If gold is king then I'll pay off the cards with a few gold coins. If nothing happens then I'll go back to the bank and deposit the cash and write a big fat cashiers check to pay off the cards.

the only down side is the $600 in interest charges that I will rack up. I just hope the price of gold goes back above $300 by years end.

-- banker is at (hokanson@teleport.com), June 14, 1999.

Running up the card to buy preps might be a bad idea, but why not buy some gold or silver ? You can alway sell the stuff and pay off at least part of the debt. If the price goes up, you might even be able to pay it all including the interest !

This might also apply to certain firearms or vehicles, but you'd better know for sure that the one you want holds its resale value well.

-- (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), June 14, 1999.