I can understand why Diane would be reluctant, but I have felt for a while (and think I have communicated to some privately?) that the sysop must be public. Otherwise, everyone projects their expectations, fears, complaints into a "vacuum" and the melodrama grows.

Arlin and I (others too, I'm sure) predicted that the trolls would try to explode the forum and it's happening, with some help from foolish regulars.

.... not the end of the world but we need Diane to take some hits and make clear what SHE expects of the forum. People can then either stay or go, just as they did with Ed.

That's life.

If Diane doesn't want to take the abuse, that's understandable, but with all due respect and affection, I believe Ed should then choose another sysop. I personally think the abuse would die down after a VERY hot week or two of kvetching, arguing and complaining.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 1999

Answers

Disagree, but am willing to listen. Way I figure it, once the current crop of comments goes away - you won't hear it again.

Prune quietly, but carry a big pair of shears.

Use ONLY when needed to save the vine itself, but prune only to save the whole vine. Never for cosmetic purposes - never to make an pretty, even, square, uniformed "english garden" hedge out of a wild grapevine. Or a Normandy hedgerow.

(If you face a hedgerow, get a tank (to armor yourself and fight through), a bulldozer (to go over it, figuring you'll get shot a afew times), or a truck and go around it (using the long way around and drive through the gate). It's faster to walk through the gate and ask the user to close it after he crosses.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 1999

Accountability Crucial

Robert,

It's a tough call and not mine to make in any case. I feel we're asking rightly for accountability on the part of the forum but that we have to be accountable as well. That should start with the sysop, I judge.

I don't agree that the noise on this is going to diminish but I hope you're right. Wax and wane? I guess.

I also think that the anonymity makes it look (not unreasonably, I suppose) as though there is indeed a nameless elite group that is stage-managing. In a sense, that's not far off. I thought it was actually good that Chuck gave a bit of info about the "two" sysops (no names, obviously) and the process here, though not sure how many saw it on the thread in question.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 1999

Not About "Pruning"

Maybe I missed this on the first go-round. What should be deleted or not is an entirely different issue IMO than whether the sysop should be publicly known. Just wanted that out-front so there is no confusion.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 1999

BD I'd like to agree with you on the separation of ID vs DELETE but I can't seem to find that here, as presented.

Unfortunately the wrong side got to formulate the debate, regardless of what we DID do in a proactive manner, the debate got formulated around us. At this time, we can, as a group try to re-formulate the debate, which may or may not be do-able, or we can try to ride it out, demonstrating the reason, responsibility, and restraint of a group of saints, led by an archangel.

Or we can hunt for another option.

MY point of view is, as follows:

1) Even BAD decisions are better than NO decisions.

2) We as a group have been less than helpful to D. a) We have been a real great debating society b) We have given all kinds of opinions c) We have given her so MANY options d) We have given her so MANY concrete action items (It should (but probably won't) go without saying that at least a couple of these are pretty tongue in cheek, but the message should be clear) AND I AIN'T INNOCENT!!!

3) We need to make some consensus decisions (unfortunately) by the end of the week, so we can have some CONCRETE options for pushing on. If this means a heavy game of round robin e-mail, well, that happens to be what we all volunteered for, right??

4) I have been fairly on record as to where I think the Forum is headed. I can be convinced otherwise, but only if you have a Cyber 2X4. I'm willing to listen to other options, but they will have to make an AWFUL lot of sense beyond the paired fora approach, with the threads on the TB2KPREP (tm) side being HEAVILY moderated, deletions swift and with no appologies, a specific charter, etc., while the TB2K forum runs on at about the current level of control (CLEARLY not in order nor in decideable format).

Now, the question arrises WHY NOW? I certainly wish we had a couple weeks to toss the ideas around, chew on 'em, everyone spit (or otherwise excrete) into the pot so they like the taste, but reality bites, and we don't get that luxury. things have gotten to the point that if we DO NOTHING, we will watch the destruction of the forum.

"How can you say that? Look at the posts today, almost all on the typical issues, preps, and current events of Y2 interest?"

Objection Your Honor, specious argument.

Prove it, kid.

The posts are as described for TODAY, but if one uses a slightly longer event timeline, one finds that the balance is NOT as described.

sustained.

Looking at the situation over the past week and a half or so, we find that there are serious problems being brought up by both friends of the forum and non-friends of the forum. to address these issues, we either stand up, take a set of lumps, not all of which are deserved, or we do the morphing of the forum in a precipitate manner rather than the hoped for gradual changes. Reality bites.

OR we look for a third option. I would LOVE to see a third option. I just don't and i really don't think it's myopia.

ALL of the forgoing is clearly my opinion, and ain't a HUMBLE one in a carload. i ain't been humble since, oh...... back in '69.

chuck

-- Anonymous, June 08, 1999

DAMN! Teach me to try to format without tags. At least it's readable. C

-- Anonymous, June 08, 1999

BigDog,

I understand your concerns, an I'd like to give it a few more days. The trolls aren't looking to KNOW who is Sysop so they can complain, they want a...

Target, pure and simple!

Ed served that purpose nicely for them. Now they want the next one to dump on.

Question: What would be best for the forum?

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 09, 1999

Response to Diane ....

Thanx, think Pat's post bought some time, no matter what you decide.

I still think, once initial uproar at you over, the forum would benefit greatly from a "real person" at the helm. Like anyone, you have friends and enemies on the forum, but lots more friends than enemies. I would predict LESS attacks by trolls on the forum (or at least on the "moderators") since regulars will eviserate them if they try it on you more than once or twice.

-- Anonymous, June 09, 1999

I don't think that Diane should show her cards if she doesn't want to. But in with that deal is the clear and open rules as to where the forum goes. At this point it would seem that the forum is going to remain open ended for discussion. I noticed Patrick mentioned possibly splitting up the prep part.

I think things have worked well since Ed has left barring the troll explosion on Sunday which ironicly enough got Paul Milne in the forum. I think CPR avoids Paul like the plague. And I am assuming that MUTHA is CPR. If not one of the serious minions that answers to the dark lord himself *VBG*.

Diane what did get cut? If it was exceptionally violent or personal maybe Mutha should stick his, her troll head in the sand.

If Mutha starts calling the shots around here then that will be a real backwards step. IMHO

Of course Sysops must have a detachment from the regular forum nonsense. If Ed cut every thing that disturbed him the forum would not have evolved to where it is today.

Well thats the Canadian view.

-- Anonymous, June 09, 1999

Brian,

The only cuts were when the "fake" OutingsR" posted not the DNS number for "a" but had run it through a search and backtracked it to a .mil site. In brackets is said something like [Edited personal information -- Poster is NOT OutingsR]. Not exact. Can't find the darned thing.

In one of Y2K Pro's posts about Paul Milne I just "snipped" the word "masterbating" out. He hasn't noticed.

In a post to "Rodeo Rosie" I added in brackets... [Please stop the trolling. If you choose to contribute something of value to this forum then do so.] as Quiet Observer@watching.you. Rodeo Rosie is posting under quite a few names, INCLUDING the Lead Sysop. (That pisses me off!)

Then there were two "snips" that were just uncalled for. The Deano character made a nasty post as "b" saying I had penis-envy and he also posted against Maria something about being a "cunt."

Sorry, but that kind of direct crudity, rates an unannounced "snip" in my book.

There has been NO Censoring, Despite what the trolls call it. (Little snirps).

Time for a latte and another "play day."

Later.

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 09, 1999

Response to Diane

Interesting. I still believe (sorry, don't mean to sound stubborn) that if you went public and provided this exact email, you would find major support. Also, you could say something like, "I welcome private emails asking for insight into the process I am using or to offer comments about specific deletions. But I don't intend to comment publicly on the sysop process except in rare circumstances."

After an initial flurry of emails, probably wouldn't be too much on that score either ... and it's not unlike Ed responding to private emails about the forum.

-- Anonymous, June 09, 1999

BigDog,

I'm seriously considering it. However I'd like to "thunk" a spell on it, for a few days.

Im giving myself some homework to do...

1) Re-read the 200+ e-mails from the first weekend when Ed left, to re-study everyones concerns.

2) Read Phil Greenspuns forum tome (groan).

3) Re-read peoples posted suggestions in the forum.

Then try to come up with a synopsis. That will take awhile.

If I do come "out" I'd like to do it with concensus and all the "ducks lined up" first.

Rather be pro-active than "re-active."

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 09, 1999

You'se supposed to taking a vacation m'dear lady.......tisk, tisk, tisk.....

-- Anonymous, June 09, 1999

Said a "couple" days Robert. (Patrick's about to vacation for awhile). Been that. How-some-ever, I'll be an infrequent poster for awhile. Got some other prep "stuff" to do.

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 10, 1999