Thanks to the other forum member for the heads up on this. I've posted pieces by Skolnick before, and usually he is on the money... Is this piece far-fetched, or are the markets being ruthlessly manipulated as Skolnick describes?

"This from Sherman Skolnick, producer of public access cable in Chicago. I wondered about the low price of gold now, which ought to be high due to public uncertainty, world events, etc., as should inflation. I thought that this whole financial environment was artificial. Is it? Read this clip, especially the claim in bold print. Item: Clinton's handlers and controllers are prepared to set in motion an orchestrated financial emergency, a gimmick so far set for Summer, 1999. Clinton as puppet is preparing to announce the use of his Emergency Powers, by way of the War Powers Act of 1917 never withdrawn or rescinded, to force all Americans to turn in all 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominated paper currency that does not have the new metal-like strip embedded in the newer-issued currency. Americans would have one-week to turn in their old currency, after which, for the first time in U.S. history, the older currency would be void. Unlike the U.S., in Europe for centuries the central governments profit by outlawing the old paper money after a certain quick cut-off date to turn it in. Those with large quantities of the older paper purported U.S. money [actually, Federal Reserve notes backed by nothing but hot air, no gold, no silver, nothing] are subject to being grilled by federal authorities as to how and where they got and have so much paper money. Questions to be asked, with demand for quick, documented answers: [1} Did you report this on your state and federal income tax returns and pay tax on this as income? [2] If not, where else did such a quantity of paper money come from? Can you prove that it did not come from illicit transactions, dope, gun smuggling, bribery? Upon being unable to give quick, on-the-spot answers with documentation suitable to the inquisitors, your older paper money may be confiscated, without a receipt being issued and without legal recourse to having it turned in for the new paper money. And will the new paper money be issued, dollar for dollar, or will you lose because of a devaluation, such as 50 of the new dollar paper money for each 100 denominated of the older paper money? Quietly, the federal Gestapo is seeking to refit metal-type detecting apparatus in airports, and to be installed in major train and bus stations so as to be able to detect if your luggage and you are carrying the currency with the metal-like strip. Some overly clever folks with tweezers have pulled out the strips from their 100 dollar bills, thus making them subject to confiscation. The monopoly press seldom finds it necessary to mention the emergency Anti-Hoarding Acts of 1933, after President Franklin D. Roosevelt banned large quantities of paper money following the shut-down of all banks during the Bank Holiday of March, 1933. By early 1934, FDR by proclamation made everyone turn in all their gold coins and gold bullion bars. The ultra-rich had shipped their gold out of the U.S. in February, 1933 prior to the Bank Holiday. To deter Americans from helping themselves by buying gold now, the conspiratorial Federal Reserve jointly with super-secret procedures of foreign central banks, are artificially forcing down the price of gold by supposedly dumping, announcing the dumping, or pretending to be dumping, large quantities of their gold reserves on the world markets. [The London bankers, the Rothschilds and others, set the price of gold, conveniently called the "Gold FIX" twice each day. On the other hand, the Rockefellers are the major importers into the U.S. of Gold supposedly for gold jewelry manufacturing centered in Rhode Island. All this as if paper money is a better idea than holding gold. ] Through out history, governments have sooner or later renounced their bonds, their debts, and other paper instruments leaving the ordinary folks without inside information holding the paper bag."

Skolnick can be found in the www.sightings.com archives...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 05, 1999

Answers

This is outrageous if true! Outrageous!!

For what it is worth, if you are stockpiling paper money for the upcoming Y2K meltdown, you actually want to keep your denominations at $10 and below on general principle anyway -- it is much more usable and flexible if prices take a sharp plunge. (Its tough now to get change with large bills sometimes!)

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), June 05, 1999.

Andy,

If we go into martial law or even something as controlling as the FDR period, nothing would surprise me. I expect that a lot of the things that I now take as a "given" such as the right to hold paper money or gold coins, may be changed to make this illegal. I'm certain that the Fed will want me to be as "cashless" as possible. Electronic exchanges or paper checks are the basic way now and I think the pressure will be on to make that the *only* way. Heaven help us.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), June 06, 1999.

The stock market and silver and gold prices is controlled by the super rich. Always has and always will. The reason they are driving the price of gold down is.....They are driving up the Dow as high as they can, perhaps past 12000 or 13000 or more, and the super rich will bail out at the top with their huge profits and then to preserve their wealth, they will convert their profits into gold, which will go ballistic in 2000.

-- freddie (freddie@the freloader.com), June 06, 1999.

Freddie- Sounds absolutely plausible to me. Faith may be sorely tested in the days and weeks ahead, but if you panic sell your gold, you may be very sorry.

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

October of 1998: I was driving through Memphis, Tenn. . .listening to PBS radio. Heard a story of *EXACT* nature of this thread. I couln't believe it! Stopped to get gas several times on the long trip home. Asked cashiers and travelers if any had heard about turing in all 20's, 100's etc. No one had heard. Part of the PBS story sounded exactly like it was happening that week! A FED spokesperson was interviewed, a bank teller was interviewed about the crowds at a particular bank. I thought that maybe this "paper money turn in" was happening in Russia for some other country.

I never followed through to calling PBS, although I did vist PBS's web sight to seek the story. Maybe someone reading this thread could seach the PBS archives. I believe the date was a Monday or Tuesday late afternoon, October 19th or 20th, 1998.

I can state that I heard this turn in your cash story EXACTLY as stated in this thread.

d

-- d (free@private.com), June 06, 1999.

Nice "heads up", Andy (as usual). Thanks for the tip 'd'.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), June 06, 1999.

Another posting of rubbish.

I suppose it gives some of you folks great comfort to fantasize about having superior knowledge about the machinations of those with financial power, but posting such fantasies here has no useful purpose.

>force all Americans to turn in all 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominated paper currency that does not have the new metal-like strip embedded in the newer-issued currency

Oh, ssuuuuurrrrrre. The government that's worried about a shortage of currency because GIs are accumulating paper money is going to itself bring about a panic about the availability of paper money by suddenly taking vast amounts of it out of circulation? Ssuuuuurrrrree. Oh, that's rrreeeeeaaaaalllllyyy sound and consistent reasoning, that is. (There really ought to be an emoticon to signify that one is rolling one's eyes.)

>Americans would have one-week to turn in their old currency, after which, for the first time in U.S. history, the older currency would be void.

Wacko nonsense.

>refit metal-type detecting apparatus in airports, and to be installed in major train and bus stations so as to be able to detect if your luggage and you are carrying the currency with the metal-like strip.

Oh, and how are "they" supposedly going to work around such little obstacles as that the rivets and trim on the luggage contain a lot more metal than a whole suitcase-full of currency ever could? WAIT! Don't tell me -- "They"'ve discovered entirely new principles of physics, from examining the alien spacecraft at Roswell!

>To deter Americans from helping themselves by buying gold now, the conspiratorial Federal Reserve jointly with super-secret procedures of foreign central banks, are artificially forcing down the price of gold

Uh ... doesn't a lower price of gold make it _easier_ to buy gold now?

This is one of the most nonsensical pieces of trash you've inflicted on this forum, Andy.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

No Spam,

Thanks for your "analysis".

Are you telling me that this scenario has never happened in any other countries? It happened in England. Old currency was deemed illegal, i.e. the old "ten bob" note, which was half a pound (20 bob or shillings), was 'withdrawn" as no longer being legal tender. The old bob was 12 pennies and there were 240 pennies to the pound. Florins, farthings, crowns, half crowns, sixpences and thrupenny bits all went the same way.

Then along came the EEC and BOOOOOM! - no more "old currency", the new corporate fascist European Union decimal currency was foisted on us. The same thing is happening with the Euro, thankfully England has so far decided not to join the currency debacle.

So basically No Spam, there are precedents for what the author is describing. There is a plan for three currencies, three armies and three unions.

We already have the European Union and the Euro.

Japan will lead the asian Union, with a new currency.

Canada will be broken up and be forced to join an American Union, with a NEW CURRENCY maroon. This is common knowledge, the timing for all this being 2000.

You fail to realise, No Spam, that we are living in "interesting times", the stakes are collossal, all bets are off, anything is possible.

BTW the Roswell jibe is pretty pathetic don't you think? I'm surprised you didn't throw in Black Helicopters and shape shifting reptilians at the same time.

One more thing - "know Your Customer" - who'd a thunk it a few years ago.

Another posting of rubbish.

I suppose it gives some of you folks great comfort to fantasize about having superior knowledge about the machinations of those with financial power, but posting such fantasies here has no useful purpose.

>force all Americans to turn in all 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominated paper currency that does not have the new metal-like strip embedded in the newer-issued currency

Oh, ssuuuuurrrrrre. The government that's worried about a shortage of currency because GIs are accumulating paper money is going to itself bring about a panic about the availability of paper money by suddenly taking vast amounts of it out of circulation? Ssuuuuurrrrree. Oh, that's rrreeeeeaaaaalllllyyy sound and consistent reasoning, that is. (There really ought to be an emoticon to signify that one is rolling one's eyes.)

>Americans would have one-week to turn in their old currency, after which, for the first time in U.S. history, the older currency would be void.

Wacko nonsense.

>refit metal-type detecting apparatus in airports, and to be installed in major train and bus stations so as to be able to detect if your luggage and you are carrying the currency with the metal-like strip.

Oh, and how are "they" supposedly going to work around such little obstacles as that the rivets and trim on the luggage contain a lot more metal than a whole suitcase-full of currency ever could? WAIT! Don't tell me -- "They"'ve discovered entirely new principles of physics, from examining the alien spacecraft at Roswell!

>To deter Americans from helping themselves by buying gold now, the conspiratorial Federal Reserve jointly with super-secret procedures of foreign central banks, are artificially forcing down the price of gold

Uh ... doesn't a lower price of gold make it _easier_ to buy gold now?

This is one of the most nonsensical pieces of trash you've inflicted on this forum, Andy.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

Let's wait and see if you get to eat CROW by the years' end No Spam.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 06, 1999.

>To deter Americans from helping themselves by buying gold now, the conspiratorial Federal Reserve jointly with super-secret procedures of foreign central banks, are artificially forcing down the price of gold

Uh ... doesn't a lower price of gold make it _easier_ to buy gold now?

Uh, yes, No Spam, it does, which is exactly why I will be stocking up in physical gold and silver. This is a buying opportunity - but you need a strong stomach to do this as the "value" declines. They know this - that is their intent, drive gold as low as possible before looting the physical at the DJI peak. Wait and see No Spam, wait and see.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 06, 1999.

This is one of the most amazing tings I've read. It belongs on any gold thread, or any Andy thread.

Rothschilds, LBMA and gold

-- humpty (Iam_not_a_number@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

Thank you Number 6,

this is a snip from the piece...

[snip]

While the world is led to believe that gold is a barbaric relic of the past, a huge confidence game is being played out in fiat currency markets, illustrated by the events in Asia. In order to maintain confidence in inherently unsustainable fiat currencies and unsustainable debt, confidence in gold must be depressed, given that it is the only alternative store of value. The increasing volume of gold transacted through LBMA reflects the crescendo this confidence game has reached. These large volumes also suggest that gold is trading as currency and not as a barbaric commodity, as the press is apt to suggest. Could it be that the LBMA is being used as a testing ground for the establishment of a new gold-backed world currency system? If so, the Rothschilds are in a position of enormous influence over such a genesis process.

Consider these words of Stanley Fisher (WSJ, Nov. 12, 1997), IMF's Deputy Managing Director: "What is needed at this point in the world's economic affairs is leadership in setting up a SYSTEM more dependable than using IMF bailouts as a guide to the future value of money. Where that leadership comes from is a tough question."

Indeed, will the leadership and system Fisher is speaking come from the House of Rothschild through the central institution of the LBMA? Only time will tell.

If the Rothschilds, through the LBMA operations, are effectively cornering the world's gold supply they would undoubtedly be in a prime position to benefit from a currency crisis - which they and Soros undoubtedly expect, given Soro's claims that the Asian, and thus by implication all fiat currencies, are inherently unsustainable. This crisis of sustainability is already engaged in Asia and will undoubtedly wash over Europe, England and the U.S. And who recently announced another bailout package? The IMF, of course.

The Houses of Rothschild, more than any other players, knows the historical power of gold and importance of a gold-backed currency system. The English system they helped engineer remained resilient and sustainable for over 200 years until the early 1900s. The Rothschilds believe in gold as the ultimate store of value; always have and always will Undoubtedly they do not consider the metal a barbarous relic of the past.

Epilogue

We are reminded of Morton's words, "today the family grooms the inaudibility and invisibility of its presence as a result, some believe that little is left apart from a great legend - and the Rothschilds are quite content to let legend be their public relations."

What is unique about old power and money of the Rothschilds is their uncanny ability to sustain their power and wealth, and keep it within the family. While it is a tribute to the power of family, the danger is their ability to control and influence the daily lives of average human beings, with fewer resources and less power. Such power can lead to the temptation of becoming as powerful as the gods. Control over such important forms of value such as gold, as an instrument of liberty, may lead to the temptation of exercising dominion over such liberty. The maintenance of power and wealth is ultimately motivated by an anxiety of losing the security that such power has provided. The power and wealth of the Rothschilds carries with it enormous privileges and hopefully a sense of responsibility for the welfare of others. While the Rothschilds and Rockefellers have exercised philanthropy to the benefit of many, even this exercise has benefited their corporations through a tax system which rewards such "charitable" and "atruistic" organisations. What distinguishes the Rothschilds from other world power brokers, like Soros, is their diminutive "presence" in the world, in spite of their untold influence on almost every aspect of our economic existence. Their continued bullishness on gold exhibited through their activities in the LBMA and gold trading suggests that we maintain our confidence in the this barbaric relic. Ultimately, however, one must be keenly aware of the potential controlling influence over gold which the Rothschilds and their merchant banking brethren can exercise, and thus placing our liberty in their hands.

It has been said that "the wealth of Rothschild consists of the bankruptcy of nations"

[end snip]

Be seeing you

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 06, 1999.

Andy,

>Are you telling me that this scenario has never happened in any other countries?

The circumstances in which it happened in those countries are not present in the U.S. and, despite your fantasies, will not be present here next year, or the next, either.

>we are living in "interesting times", the stakes are collossal, all bets are off, anything is possible.

No -- Y2k does not obviate the lessons of history. The conditions for the currency change you fantasize are simply not present.

>BTW the Roswell jibe is pretty pathetic don't you think? I'm surprised you didn't throw in Black Helicopters and shape shifting reptilians at the same time.

Folks -- notice how deftly Andy avoids answering my exposure of the flaw in the detecting-the-metal-like-strips-in-the-currency fantasy?

Andy -- exactly HOW are these supposed "metal-like" strip detectors supposed to work when the currency is in luggage?

Andy -- why don't you answer my point about the contradiction between the worry about a shortage of currency and a supposed plan that will dramatically reduce the amount of currency in circulation? [I'll let you out of this one if you invent an emoticon to signify that one is rolling one's eyes.]

>Americans would have one-week to turn in their old currency, after which, for the first time in U.S. history, the older currency would be void.

_One week_? Surely you can see that this is a whacko idea, can't you? Can't you, Andy? If not, please explain the logistics of this supposed one-week turn-in. If banks can't handle the withdrawal of 5% of U.S. currency over a period of several months, how will the turnover of 95% in one week be handled?

>Let's wait and see if you get to eat CROW by the years' end No Spam.

Gee, I wish I could make this into a bet. But you've already shown on this forum that you don't admit your mistakes (Does "8:33" ring a bell? Where's the evidence, Andy?).

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

I find Andy's efforts to be enjoyable reading. If knowledgeable people are converting to gold, the price of gold must be bid up. But we find it falling instead. How can this be? Why, IT'S A CONSPIRACY! Why didn't I think of that.

And rather than try to imagine some other reason for this observation, off we go into la-la land. And some real imagination is being exercised, no doubt about it. Any relation to reality (if there were any) would be purely coincidental, but who needs reality? In most kinds of fiction, at least internal consistency makes for a good story. But with conspiracy fiction, we don't even need that. As someone once said, this is like playing tennis without the net. You can't miss.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 06, 1999.

Help! What was it that Greenspan said about removing "inordinate" amounts of money from one's account. Let's see, "it would not be wise" and we would understand very soon.

-- Betty Alice (Barn266@aol.com), June 06, 1999.

I'll bet on Andy's analysis over No Spams, any day.
You doofus-heads who still think the U.S.A. is still a free country have your heads up your butts. It is a now a fascist dictatorship ruled by one party. It is no less a dictatorship just because the iron fist is encased in a velvet glove. The only reason we still have freedom of expression on this forum is that we are just gnats, not yet bothersome enough to swat.

look at the gold confiscation by Roosevelt in the 1930s.
Look at the "income tax" where they confiscate your labor -- the essence of the income tax is that your ass belongs to Klinton, Bush, and their bosses.
Look at the fact that NONE of you have a freehold or allodial title to your property. The government is the owner. Your property taxes are tributes to the lord of the manor.
Look at the fact that you are subject to a fraudulent monetary, credit and banking system. And that the government "owns" whatever "money" you have in your possession.
Look at the fact that you cannot work at any halfway decent job without "showing your papers".
Look at the fact that you cannot open a business without jumping through all kinds of hoops and paying tribute.
Look at the fact that if you leave the U.S.A. and make some money elsewhere, the U.S. government still considers that "their" money and taxable.
Need I go on...?

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 06, 1999.

'a':

You're quite right. It's the worst possible system, except for all the alternatives. But don't worry. You'll die eventually, and won't have to worry about it anymore.

Meanwhile, if you plan to do more than just whine about it, let me know. I have a few changes I'd like to make as well. Meanwhile, I'll suffer along with what little I have.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 06, 1999.

Folks,

Notice how A doesn't counter my objections, either. Neither the currency supply contradiction, nor the one-week turnover, nor the metal detectors, nor the lower price of gold, nor the difference in circumstances of currency changes. Not one of them.

- - - - - - - - - -

A,

>It is a now a fascist dictatorship

You should be ashamed of yourself for cheapening the meanings of "fascist" and "dictatorship" by throwing them around so carelessly. Please save them for the real occasions.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

No Spam Please:

I'm sure 'a' will be glad to counter your objections, as soon as Milne tells him what to think. To defend something this wacky, you need someone who's completely around the bend. I think 'a' knows his limitations.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 06, 1999.

I've been thrashing around all weekend with this (thanks a lot, Andy), and I honestly can see it both ways on both issues (gold de-valuing; old 20/50/100 bill turn-ins). Look, There Is Something Strange going on with gold -- nations don't suddenly up and decide to sell off their reserves without some reason!

At first glance, it does seem absolutely unfathomable that a country that is so afraid of Y2K induced bank runs that it is printing up an extra fifty billion, and letting old currency stay in the system rather than be retired, will demand that a large percentage of the cash that is out there (especially 20s) be "outlawed" for use. On the other hand, if the Powers That Be are convinced that bank runs will happen and there is too little cash available (as there obviously is), what better way to snow the public that pull something like this? It would give a sort of "justification" as to why "unreasonable" amounts of cash are not available to people, as only Drug Dealers and Wackos would ever want so much cash. If it could be timed with some kind of Terroristic Counterfeiting Plot To Kill The U.S. Economony With Fake 20s, that would really do the trick!

And stop picking on Andy, he just presented info that he came across, that may or may not be true. Thats what this forum is all about, analyzing stuff like this, right?

(And again: The old 20/50/100 bills turn-in, if it ever became reality, should not be affecting any Y2K stockpiling if you are keeping your cash in $10s, $5s, $1s and coins.)

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), June 07, 1999.

"And stop picking on Andy, he just presented info that he came across, that may or may not be true. Thats what this forum is all about, analyzing stuff like this, right?"

Thanks jack, in essence you are right. I post pieces very often whilst in devil's advocate mode, just to get the synapses going and jerk old no spam's chain (just kidding).

Now - the Skolnick piece bears careful thinking about.

No Spam and Flint - you are not capable of thinking outside of the box so snippets of information in this vein that I present to you are essentially wasted on your closed minds - but hey, that's your loss, not mine.

Now then now then....

Ask yourselves a few questions. I don't know all the answers but I'm beginning to fit the pieces together, as should you. There is an agenda out there, IMHO still fluid, but there nevertheless...

Gold is being driven down by unseen forces - yes or no? - this goes against the grain of logic - yes or no? - unless you are trying to shore up the fiat money system in it's last death throws (for reason of timing that will become apparent in due course...)

The markets are being driven UP by those same forces - yes or no? It flies against all logic, y2k, the Asian, Japanese, LA and Russian situatians, Yugoslavia.

Who is going to get out at the top? The people "in the know"... who will carry the bag? JQP, the folks with their 401k pension funds tied up in this self-perpetuating scam... the greedy yuppies (they can and will go to their own hell...)

TPTB know that this is the end game for the fiat money system. It is unsustainable, as many eminent thinkers are predicting (see above). it's not a case of if, but when will it collapse.

TPTB will of course come out as usual as winners. That's because they can CONTROL the timing and nature of events. By driving down the price of gold they shore up the fiat system and markets and instill a FTQ reflex worldwide so that people flock to the dollar instead of gold. When the time is right they will buy the gold at firesale prices (via various mechanisms and intermediaries) so that when the collapse is engineered they will profit when gold and silver go ballistic. Following the y2k fallout I'm sure a gold-backed currency will be introduced - what else could there be?

Now...

If you believe there are going to be Bank Runs how would you nip them in the bud or prevent them? Remember, TPTB have several contingency plans and scenarios already in place, waiting for the correct timing, whereby naturally or artificially induced. Get my drift?

Clinton and the Fed have several strategies. They could institute immediate Bank holidays. They could mandate that all payments be electronic only. They could issue smart cards to welfare folks so that they would not have to use cash or food coupons (essentially a cashless society in the space of a month or so....). they could institute withdrawl limits for cash - i.e. 100 or 200 dollars per person/household per week. They could do as Jack suggested and spread a scare story about counterfeiting of older notes, therefore all citizens must use the new currency ONLY - but - OOPS! - we don't have quite enough just now, but we will give you large bills up to a certain limit, and all other transactions will be ELECTRONIC ONLY.

They could institute plans B, C or D that I haven't thought of yet, but you can bet your bottom dollar that THEY have...

Remember, we still have the use of all our EDI/EFT systems for another six months or so - this could be done if necessary.

Or, Skolnick could be dead on the money as he often is and his piece may be correct.

The metal strips in currency - what are they for? A counterfeit measure? - Sure. However, the metal means that the notes can be detected with the right equipment... think about it. Remember the anti-hoarding laws that are still on the books, this applies to food, gold and virtually anything else that you can think of...

No Spam - my advice to you - keep your eyes and ears peeled, be fluid and be prepared pal, unless of course you are happy to be ROYALLY SCREWED over the coming year or so.

More to come.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

Spam/Flint: Definition of fascism fits -- Do you know definition? Do you know history? Fascism is a variant of collectivism where property is nominally held privately, but CONTROL is vested in government -- as opposed to another variant, communism (socialism) where the government both owns and controls.

If you think my def is "cheap" or overblown, maybe you're thinking of a variant of collectivism, a subvariant of fascism called naziism. Nazi is a contraction (in German of National SOCIALIST). You are IGNORANT!!

U.S. better(?) Not any more. Anyone with an international outlook can see that the U.S. was once heads and shoulders above other countries. No more; it has sunk up to it's ass in its own crap. Same as others now, politically and economically.

The currency threads CAN be detected by metal detectors. Have you ever been through airport or other "big brother" check points? The X-rays will pick up both the "rivets" (whatever) in your luggage AND the currency, and image them. If they can't make out the contents because you have shielded them, the bags will be opened. The metal detectors will pick up the currency on (or in) your person -- "empty your pockets, please. Now your money belt. Now your ankle wallet. Now your shoulder money pouch. Thank you sir. Step this way sir..." You both are frickin' idiots and/or ignorant and/or just doofus naive cretins.

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 07, 1999.

Right on A!!!!!!!

And Jack,

"Look, There Is Something Strange going on with gold -- nations don't suddenly up and decide to sell off their reserves without some reason! "

Correctimundo - BUT - the UK has NOT sold anything YET... - just the press release to say it was GOING TO (over the next 3 years) was enough to do the job and start the decline, other players have also given the decline a little greasing in behind the scenes plays - I tell you, now is the time to buy physical. Keep buying it as it goes down, DOLLAR COST AVERAGE THE BASTARDS!!!

You will NOT regret having done this in a years' time...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

Yes, Andy.

All: The object is to buy low and sell high. The winners do that; the losers (public at large) do the opposite. For every transaction there is both a buyer and a seller. When prices are rising, the public is buying and someone else is selling. When prices are falling, the public generally panics and sells to stronger (buyer) hands.

Now metals prices are low, trending lower.

But we have an apparent contradiction -- what we would suppose to be the stronger hands -- government, bankers, are SUPPOSEDLY selling. Who is buying? Who is selling? Or is there any?

Some points/questions to consider (I'm just brainstorming here):

We usually think of metals prices in terms of fiat currency numbers. Not fiat currency prices in ounces or grams of metals.

Is it the banks who are selling -- to government treasuries? Or is it the government treasuries who are selling to the banks? In terms of fiat currencies. Is the public net buyers or sellers?

In a true and elastic auction market, supply and demand determine the price. OTOH, a market where the prices are determined by "specialists" (e.g. NYSE) -- or fixed (the daily London Gold Fix), buying and selling, if any, are determined by the price set/fixed.

There doesn't have to be any tremendous buying/selling to force the price up or down as long when the price is fixed.

The bankers/government can float some rumors about big sales and take (fix) the price down, without really selling any. This flushes out some gold from the panicked public (who generally sells low and buys high). The later, bank/gov fixes the price higher, and sells back at a nice profit to the public "jumping on the bandwagon." Rinse and repeat.

Currency call-in is a separate issue. As far as having enough, it can be drastically revalued. Recall that in the post WWI Germany hperinflation, currency and postage stamps already printed were overstamped with higher denominations. No reason currency couldn't be stamped with lower denominations. Any not stamped at the bank would not be legal tender.

Re gold -- Roosevelt called it in, no reason Klinton couldn't or wouldn't. Or at least try to. Probably wouldn't do as well this time, though.

Because we are talking fiat money, US$, DM, BritPounds, etc., WHICH ARE RUBBER YARDSTICKS RELATIVE TO REALITY, I don't have any conclusion other than put your money into real things (food, ammo, gold, etc.). You make not "make" any money, but you won't lose any, either. Whereas if you bet wrong with fiat money demonominated assets, you could win big -- or lose big.

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 07, 1999.

It's late, I notice some boo-boos in the above post. I leave it to the reader as an exercise to determine them. As I said, it is brainstorming. As just another nigger (regardless of race) on the government plantation, I sure don't have the answers.

-- A (A@AisA.com), June 07, 1999.

A,

I was brainstorming too - that's what this forum is about after all - I have a feeling that we will all be surprised by what happens in the next year or so...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

Although most of this looks like paranoid BS, UK currency has been mentioned so I'll answer (as a UK citizen)

In this country, withdrawal and replacement of our paper currency is the normal response to the appearance of good forgeries. I'm all in favour of this, and I think most UK citizens are: if there are forgeries around which normal care won't notice, I'd say it's a moral obligation on the authorities to act is such a way as to eliminate them! Certainly (and apparently unlike the USA) this is something that happens quite often, and is completely expected. It's about to happen again with our #20 notes: I did wonder about the timing!

It's also worth mentioning that although the old notes lose their legal tender status, they *never* become void of value: you can always present them at a bank and get them replaced by new ones. I've never had cause to try it with a wad, but in the case of a single note I was asked for no ID whatsoever (despite the note being ten years out of circulation).

I'd be interested to know what percentage of US currency in circulation is forged. Methinks it might be rather high: compare the design of a greenback with just about any other western currency note, and you'll see why!

-- Nigel Arnot (nra@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk), June 07, 1999.

Check this out!!!!!!! (from gold-eagle)

Major Currency Battle Now Underway Masked by Equity Bubble

Current economic events boil down to two economic forces at work that essentially divide the world into two camps: debt holding countries of the US dollar and countries who are distancing themselves from US debt by way of physical gold possession and the Euro. All current world events seem to be explainable when viewed in this manner. The two camps are the US$/IMF faction (IMF is International Monetary Fund) and the Euro/BIS faction (BIS is Bank of International Settlement). The US$/IMF camp is dollar based paper and debt; the Euro/BIS camp is gold-based currency and gold bullion and oil.

The current run up in the US dollar and equities market is a result of the skewed influence of the US dollar in world economic events. Furthermore, it demonstrates strength when viewed from its existing role as a world reserve currency. It is this role of 'reserve currency' that is the focal point of a currency war now in progress. This currency war is masked, however, by the power and control of the media of the US$/IMF faction, and by the apparent strength of the dollar and the dollar denominated stock markets. It is this apparent strength that blinds all of us to the struggle now waging in world markets. Knowledge that the battle is in progress provides us with a perspective from which current economic events become crystal clear, because the players are Gold, the Euro, and the Dollar.

The strength of the dollar is its Achilles Heel. The equities market in the US has been fueled apparently by two major sources of funds: baby- boomer 401K plans, and the Yen and Gold-carry money. It is this latter source of money that has just now come into question as legitimate and healthy -- just look at Japan's economy and what the YEN carry trade has done there. It is the gold-carry trade that may be the David of the dollar Goliath or the hair of Samson.

Carry-trading in Yen and Gold is simple to understand. It is borrowing Yen or gold at a low interest rate, selling it into the market -- which drives the price down and the dollar up -- then buying US bonds or equities at a higher rate of return. The loan is repaid, the differential interest is pocketed, and the process is repeated -- as long as the price of the YEN and gold drop. Not long ago, the YEN carry trade was essentially stopped. More recently the gold carry trade has been slowed but not quite stopped. In the case of gold-carry, many of the gold-carry players rolled-over their loans and NEVER paid them back. They didn't have to until NOW: gold is currently priced at or below production cost.

Once the Central Banks (mostly European) slowed the leasing of gold, the estimated 14,000 tons of gold that has been involved in the gold- carry trade needs to be paid back. Needless to say, this is about one- half of the entire gold stockpile or above-ground gold of all central banks, so it is impossible to pay back the debt in gold as most of the Central Bank loans apparently demand. Consequently, the financial parties in the gold-carry business need a source of gold to pay back these loans. It appears that only two escape hatches exist for the gold-carry players. Keeping the price of gold down by shorting it on COMEX (this is akin to naked shorting as insufficient gold bullion doesn't appear to exist to cover the 200,000 open interest contracts) or repaying the loans in a medium acceptable to the banks who lent the gold in the first place. Since these are European banks and no large source of gold currently exists, the Euro may become the only accepted means of repayment.

One can see how the carry trades drove the Yen and is now driving gold to all time recent lows. In the case of the YEN more could be printed or made available for repayment. In the case of gold, only 2500 tons of gold are mined each year. To cover the estimated 14,000 ton gold shortage would require more than five years at current production levels and that is if all production was slotted for just that debt.

The remarkable thing about the carry trades is the shear number of financial institutions who have participated in it. In other words, the gold-carry trade is pervasive and to unwind it will affect many world financial institutions.

So back to the war of the Euro/BIS and the US$/IMF. Two anonymous representatives of the Euro/BIS camp have for the past two years come forward with their interpretation of events. They go by the handles or pen names of ANOTHER and Friend of Another. They have used the Internet as their medium of discussion and have provided a tome of information and opinion on this hidden war now unfolding. I believe they came forward after the Euro/BIS cards had been played. Their stated purpose is to ensure that the world knows that the currency war is in progress and that the apparent outcome for title of 'world reserve currency' ends up in the Euro/BIS camp.

Let me explain. They claim that the BIS and the European Central Banks allowed the gold-carry trade to go on for years in order to proliferate gold-based debt and worldwide physical ownership of gold, using Central Bank leasing as leverage. It has become so pervasive that leased-gold debt is part of many modern financial institutional balance sheets. Simply put, gold debt is extensive and there is none to be had to pay that debt. Almost all physical gold is accounted for and these loans continue to be rolled over. To make matters worse, mining production of most major mining companies is hedged (spoken for) up to 10 years. Thus the only way to pay back these loans that would be acceptable to these Central Banks in lieu of gold appears destined to be Euros.

In other words, this is the biggest currency sting in history. Nearly risk-free (or so they thought) low-interest money was available through the carry trades that everyone that knew about it got on board and cashed in. The result? The Central Banks are owed an alleged 14,000 tons of gold (with interest) by a wide-variety of institutions.

Now you can see why A/FOA believe that the US$/IMF faction has lost. They can't pay back their debts without converting to gold or Euro's and that means converting US bonds and equities into Euros or gold. Since there is virtually no physical gold to be had, we see an all out media campaign against gold that discredits gold image as a currency or medium of exchange and that reports large sales-to-be of IMF/Swiss/CB gold. The end result of this campaign (so far) is that gold continues to plummet in price (this in face of the largest demand for physical gold in history).

Now, thanks to A/FOA, light has been shed on the hidden battle for reserve currency. Up until the Euro was introduced, the only possible competitor for world reserve currency status was gold. Gold doesn't lend itself freely for exchange (hard to email it). With the introduction of the Euro that doesn't hold the debt load of the US dollar and has 15% of its reserve in gold bullion, a proxy for gold was born that can now compete with the dollar for the reserve currency status.

Please review these recent world-wide financial events using the above information as a filter:

- -- Gold approaches $292 and the Bank of England announces a sale only available to members of the LBMA (London Bullion Market Association). Price of gold drops to a 20 year low.

- -- The IMF announces a sale of gold to help poor countries (who would have benefited more if the price of gold was higher as most them were countries with producing gold mines). This was announced while the price of gold threatened to pass above $290.

- -- The Swiss vote on a national referendum to delink gold from the Swiss Franc and it passes.

- -- Major news organizations publish countless stories about gold is dead, gold is no longer a modern requirement for currency. (People become confused by this. Gold's popularity falls to an all time low, now rated at 21% popularity per Steve Kaplan).

- -- Gold no longer acts normally during major world crisis. Normally it would rally in the event of war or inflation.

- -- Major rumors of Goldman Sachs and other investment banks heavily shorting gold on COMEX further holds gold down during these major world-crisis. (I even read a rumor that said the Fed has a trading account with a major investment bank and is itself short gold.)

- -- The formation of GATA (Gold Anti-Trust Action) committee to investigate the apparent manipulation in gold markets.

- -- The unrelated yet recent announcements of copper and drug company price fixing.

Steve Hickel

7 June 1999

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

Golden Nuggets -or- A Barbarous Relic?

Many of the world's political looters (I mean leaders) have given gold investors plenty to worry about. The Swiss passed their April 18th referendum to officially go off the gold standard, clearing a major hurdle blocking the sale of up to 1300 metric tonnes of their gold reserves (a metric ton is equal to 2205 lb. or 32,150 troy oz). They now only need public approval in a final referendum this fall. That one is expected to find much greater opposition. The markets actually took it in stride, pushing gold prices sharply higher in what had appeared to be the classic panic short squeeze we were expecting.

That changed abruptly on May 7th when the Bank of England (BOE) sent gold down more than $12/oz. and the XAU Index over 15 points lower in the following two days alone on the surprise announcement that they plan to reduce England's gold reserves by some 415 of 715 tonnes over the next 3 to 5 years. The sales are to begin with 5 auctions every other month beginning in July with the sale of 125 tonnes.

We are more than suspicious that this would come just as prices were starting to rally, especially when it began in the face of the already discounted news from Switzerland. The BOE stated that their intention was to "reconfigure" their reserves toward interest bearing currencies. The British pound dropped immediately on the news as this is yet another socialist run European nation that is, in essence, devaluing and socializing their currency for reasons that can only be guessed at for now. With paper assets backed by little more than the confidence of IOUs (more paper backing paper -defined by us and many others to be a Ponzi Scheme!!) , they are doing everything they can to remove and thoroughly discredit traditional thinking that currency needs to be backed with something tangible.

Why would any nation squander the one sure asset to back the integrity of their paper currency? Perhaps it is because no one making these decisions is old enough to remember the value of a gold linked currency, but more likely they choose to remove barriers that will allow them to print unlimited currency without any responsible fiscal restraint. Thus, convince the world that gold is obsolete as a hard currency and that paper "IOUs" are sufficient, modern, and better. That is, until something happens between nations to remind them that the value of a generic hard asset currency yields to no particular political or nationalistic persuasion. The very essence of its value is that it takes no sides.

The question remains why is this no longer important? If I were a central banker, I'd want to be on the other end of the trade, even if it meant printing more currency to pay for it. At least in the end it would have strong gold backing. Japan, China, India, Russia, and Middle-Eastern nations may have this same idea, yet for other reasons their currencies (by far) don't stand out among recent leaders.

The IMF's proposal to sell up to 10 million ounces of their gold reserves (less than $3 billion at today's depressed prices) has remained a major emotional Sword of Damocles hanging over the market since it was first proposed in 1996. Many think that the majority of CB sales were to beat them to the market, but in reality, their proposed sales aren't large enough to have caused this much front running. The proceeds would be used to provide debt relief for the "Highly Indebted Poor Countries" (HIPC) initiative, many of which are in mineral rich nations that depend heavily on gold production and stable or rising prices. There is much debate over whether these gold sales would provide real relief or are even an appropriate vehicle for this type of aid in the first place. A growing number of key US Congressmen led by Senate Minority Leader, Tom Daschle of South Dakota have started a movement voicing their non-partisan opposition to these sales. The US holds 18% of the 85% majority vote needed to pass the IMF's resolution to sell any gold, effectively enough to veto the entire proposal. If they succeed, they will have removed a huge barrier to higher prices.

The German Finance Ministry, France, England, and the Clinton Administration are in favor of the sales but the Bundesbank, Japan, Russia, and South Africa oppose it. Bundesbank President, Hans Tietmeyer has vigorously opposed any gold sales as has Alan Greenspan who stated that "gold still represents the ultimate form of payment that is always accepted." Even outgoing Treasury Secretary Rubin, who is in favor of IMF sales recently stated, "it wouldn't be wise for the US to start selling its gold." A spokesman confirmed that the US has no plans to sell any of our 262 million ounces held in reserve. That is to say, not in the open market. We reported last October that through 9/23/98 the US Mint had already sold a record 1.2 million one ounce Gold Eagle coins and put dealers on an allocation because they couldn't meet the demand. I don't know what the total 1998 figure was, but in itself this was a lot of gold sold for a country that supposedly needs Congressional approval to reduce its reserves.

It is likely that CBs are deliberately acting to keep the market depressed. Short sellers were starting to panic because they literally can't find enough gold to cover their record short positions. They can't deliver their borrowed gold back to their central bank lenders until they can find the supply, so the BOE announced they'd make it available! This is the equivalent of protecting one's investment, even after they had already rigged the game. The tight supplies we had written extensively about were having a sharply bullish impact on the shorts. According to Michael Kosares (whose Gold Report shares the web site with our own market comments), the BOE announcement may be aimed at helping speculators out of trouble ahead of new accounting standards that will go into effect this summer by the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB). These standards will impose exposure of derivatives holdings, making speculators more accountable. A sustained rise in gold prices would rapidly unwind the value of the many bearish gold trades further reducing their ability to cover their shorts, forcing the disclosure of many undesirable positions.

It is obvious that the fresh 20-year low in gold is directly tied to the ongoing manipulation of central banks and speculators. Their fortunes are directly tied to each other through the loans that have allowed them to in turn sell their borrowed gold. A price recovery will cause panic to find the gold needed, forcing them to cover the immense shorts. Salomon Bros /Smith Barney estimates the total number of outstanding loans may exceed 10,000 tonnes (this is equal to 322 MILLION ounces outstanding that must be paid back eventually!!!) The sudden need to cover would undoubtedly drive many short sellers bankrupt as there is MUCH less physical supply available. This would mean they wouldn't be able to pay back the loans to central bankers (Oh what a tangled web we weave when at first we do deceive!!). In fact, Michael Kosares is convinced that the BOE announcement was timed intentionally to privately bail out at least one insolvent British short seller. Isn't it curious that this announcement came just as prices were getting going? Who in their right mind would broadcast this intention before getting the best price they could get? Another plausible theory is that CBs are keeping prices low to keep bond prices artificially higher (yields lower) than they would otherwise be. Issuing loads of low interest loans save these countries many metric tonnes in paper currency (even if we do think it is fiat). Let us not forget our own country's social entitlement cost of living obligations that they've enjoyed keeping low (at the expense of the elderly, poor and disabled). I wonder if this came before or after the chickens decided to suppress hatching any golden eggs.

Perhaps in the end, a good majority of the announced sales (IMF, Switzerland, and now the BOE) will be done privately without any real market disruption. Most of the central bank sales have been conducted this way in recent years, but even if this is not the case going forward, there continues to be enough of an ongoing physical shortfall to offset the extra supply. Last year, for instance, there was a supply deficit of almost 1000 metric tonnes including the total of 437 tonnes sold by the CBs. Salomon Bros/Smith Barney (SB/SB) conservatively projects this year's (1999) supply deficit at 800 tonnes. It is possible that we are at or near the tail end of the trend of CB gold divestment, if for no other reason than because they've already so substantially reduced their holdings. SB/SB advises that "this is not a time to join the CBs in capitulation." CNBC now refers to gold as "a barbarous relic." We know they'll end up regretting these words. We don't know when but we do know that the day will come as it is always the darkest before the dawn. We await a new sunrise and think it will be worth its weight!

Mitch Harris, RIA, June 7, 1999

President, Market Trend Realities

Editor, The Reality Check Newsletter

Back

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

More.......

GOLD AND SILVER REVISITED

This short reply was written in response to the excellent article written on December 16, 1998 by Ted Butler regarding the leasing of both gold and silver.

Ted Butler is correct to suggest the procedure of leasing both gold and silver at this time because the joint venture of Banks, Brokerage Houses and Mining companies [BBM] that have historically leased (sold short) these hard assets is about to come to an end. Why must this practice end soon? Everyone (credit worthy enough to lease hard assets) who could have possibly leased such hard assets has already done so! No one leases gold or silver to a third party unless they can be assured that they will be able to get these assets back. The BBM's have already leased and sold these assets into the cash markets to obtain cash in order to finance speculative currency, equity and derivatives trading operations or to hedge their precious metals cash flows until such time as these markets begin to rise. The tip-off that the BBM's have exhausted their potential leases of gold and silver was when LTCM had to use the FRB to bail itself out instead of just borrowing or leasing precious metals and selling the hard assets for cash to cover their emerging market and trading losses.

So what happens now? I suggest the following scenario may unfold over the next ten years.

From 1998 through 1999 strong long-term holders (Buffett, Soros, and others) start to accumulate gold and silver at these levels or lower levels if the markets will accommodate, while the public is forced out of their long positions or even sells short based on possible planted or unfounded news stories. Short-term day-traders (on or off the floor) keep trading and make some profits or take some losses. Probable trading range for Gold = $200 to $340; Silver = $3.00 to $7.50 over the next 12 months (most likely a down move first in a deflationary environment followed by an explosion upward).

Above $345 Gold and $8.00 Silver, sometime after Y2K the short sellers (those who leased) begin to panic and start to cover any remaining sales or hedges put on. Of course they will not sell or lease anymore. Long-term holders still hold their positions. Short- term investors start to buy while the public looks on, waiting for a pullback in which to buy. Day-traders still buy and sell to scalp some profits or take some losses. BBM's stop any new leasing programs.

Above $500 Gold and $20.00 Silver (Y2K+1) the public starts to nibble in these markets as the brokerage houses start to write positive articles. They need volume since the stock market will have dropped off as the Internet stocks are getting slaughtered. The public would like to buy more gold and silver but the relative prices seem too high, so they are looking for a price pullback in which to buy. The day-traders still scalp profits and take losses. Gold and Silver mutual funds become particularly hot, based on their past 12 month performance and money inflows from the sale of other stock market investments. Long-term holders still hold their core investment positions in bullion but start to see their long-term holdings of Gold and Silver stocks reach areas of over-extension. This will result in secondary offerings and new issues of stock being offered.

At $850 Gold and $50 Silver (Y2K+2) all of the previous short sellers are out of the market or bankrupt. The public, still looking for the pull-back that never came, watches from the sidelines in the futures markets (margins have gone from $1,500 to $100,000 a contract). Instead, they buy the gold and silver stocks in earnest. Day-traders still trade but at subdued levels, staring in disbelief. The volume of contracts traded in the futures markets decline, but the gold and silver stocks are red-hot. News stories circulate about how the French, Swiss, Middle-Eastern, Japanese and Chinese banks are buying Gold to preserve the purchasing power of their currencies.

News stories continue to circulate (Y2K+3-4) about major fraud at some banks and brokerage houses which can't cover their derivative and short positions in the Gold and Silver markets and might default on leasing programs to Central Banks and the U.S. Treasury. An audit of all U.S. Treasury Gold and Silver holdings is ordered by the U.S. Senate. News comes out that shorts have no Silver to deliver on Comex. Gold soars to $1,300 an ounce and Silver to $100 an ounce. Trading in Gold and Silver grinds almost to a halt. The public and day-traders are out of the market. Buffett offers 20 million ounces of Silver to a consortium of industrial users at $144 an ounce. Soros issues a secondary offering of 1,000,000 shares of Apex Silver at $100 a share (after a 10 for 1 split). Both offerings are oversubscribed. Long-Term investors continue to keep their core holdings.

After 5 years (Y2K+5) in the planning stage (plans started in 2000), large mining companies begin to bring on stream their developed Gold and Silver mines. Prices have stabilized and are now going up or down in tandem with the money supply and consumer prices. Meanwhile, by Y2K+10, Russia and China (Mainland and Taiwan are now combined) follow the Middle-Eastern and Southeast Asia countries onto the Gold Standard and become instant economic success stories for the 21st Century. Prices are now averaging $3,450 Gold and $300 Silver per troy ounce. Puzzling, no one ever mentions the uselessness of Gold and the overabundance of Silver anymore.

This is the scenario as I see it. Regards and best wishes.

December, 1998

Edwin J. Sheldon, Chief Market Strategist & CEO (Ag Bug) Sheldon Capital Management, LLC Manager of Sheldon Diversified Fund, LLC (No-Load Hedge Fund in Formation) Fax.# 973-890-5728 E-mail - ejayshel@aol.com )

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

and another snippet

@Steve Hickel, FOA, Another--NWO (chris) Jun 06, 19:43

I offer a simple counter theory to what you propose.

You propose that what we are now seeing unfold is a struggle (sting) by BIS/euro forces to defeat the IMF/dollar as the reserve currency. If your theory is correct, then indeed, this is what will happen. The euro will take over as the worldwide reserve currency. And that will be the end of it. I sincerely hope you are correct. However, I do not think you are.

I believe the BIS/euro versus IMF/dollar is simply a cover story to disguise what is really going on, which is a united effort toward the NWO by the elite internationalists involved. My theory is that the events we are about to see unfold are primarily designed to convince US citizens of the need for a new global US currency, and perhaps other moves to coalesce various governments. I believe that the euro will be held up as the threat for why we must acquiesce to giving up a big chunk of freedom. Yes, the euro and gold will soar. But the cause will not be some covert attack upon the dollar by the BIS/euro. It will be as a result of years of planning and financial manipulation on the part of the NWO. The proof of my theory will be if, once the euro and gold soar (soon I believe), the process will not end with the euro taking over as the world currency. If there are many more steps to deprive of us of much freedom, in the name of this planned and manipulated crisis, then that will be sufficient for the proof of my theory.

I sincerely hope your theory is correct, and mine is in error, but IMHO, I do not think that is the case.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

Andy, excellent sleuthing. Contained in those articles are the answers to the question of why gold is going down and central banks are selling (Bank of England) when demand is at record highs.

I fear that you are simply casting pearls before swine. Most will not attempt to read it, much less understand it. Oh well.

By the way, on the issue of money, when you see 1's and 5's come out with the photo on the front 'off center' is when you will know your old small denomination bills are no longer safe from confiscation.

-- (mass@delusions.com), June 07, 1999.

This has got to be one of the best, mosgt informative, educational, and provocative threads ever!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), June 07, 1999.

Andy and A,

So far, I've only hinted at one of Skolnick's factual errors, to see whether either of you would pick up on it. You didn't.

Are you aware that the security thread in the new currency is _NOT_ metallic? It is neither metal, nor even especially "metal-like". It is a polymer with _visual_ detection features, not magnetic detection features. It is designed for easy _visual_, not magnetic, detection of the currency's denomination and genuineness.

So why are you going on about using "metal detectors" to detect something that is not detectable with metal detectors? Other than the sheer ignorance built into this whole nonsensical story? Hmmm?

(BTW, _that_ is the answer to the question about how the metal detectors are supposed to be able to detect the currency inside luggage with metal trim and rivets: they aren't. The whole story about installing or retrofitting new detectors in airports, train stations, and bus depots is bogus.)

Now, here's a further test: I still haven't mentioned another property of the security thread that Skolnick fails to take into account. Do you know what that is? Or do you have the intellectual courage and honesty to admit that you don't?

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 08, 1999.

"No Spam Please", if you have valuable info that would be of interest, I wish that you would just share it and not make people jump through hoops. Your points concerning the the internal "strip" on the newer 20/50/100 dollar bills is well noted, and certainly acts to question the accuracy of Scolnick's verbage.

I wish people would stop trying to read "hidden agendas" where none exist. Information is shared, and it is discussed. Why can't it be that simple?

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), June 09, 1999.

No spam I could give a shit what you think. You make me want to puke, all you ever do is jump in and nit-pick and adversely criticise people and posts.

I notice that you never post ANYTHINg original yourself...why not?

Why don't you for once in your sorry life try and contribute something - I've done a lot of research on this whole thread, which is about GOLD after all, see the heading?, the dollar strip is a total side-issue, something which you seem oblivious to.

Adress the point of the article - why is gold being driven down? Otherwise you can go to hell IMHO.

Andy - who usually doesn't get this angry...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 09, 1999.

Jack (jsprat@eld.net),

>if you have valuable info that would be of interest, I wish that you would just share it

I AM sharing it. I'm pointing out how Skolnick's bogus theory is shot through with logical flaws, for the purpose of keeping other readers of this thread from being misled by this nonsense.

>I wish people would stop trying to read "hidden agendas" where none exist.

Tell that to the people who read hidden agendas into the new design of U.S. currency.

- - -

Now, in response to earlier postings of yours in this thread:

>On the other hand, if the Powers That Be are convinced that bank runs will happen and there is too little cash available (as there obviously is), what better way to snow the public that pull something like this? It would give a sort of "justification" as to why "unreasonable" amounts of cash are not available to people, as only Drug Dealers and Wackos would ever want so much cash.

This theory assumes a vast public ignorance. There is simply too much public information available about the U.S. financial system for our government to be able to pull something like this off.

A common thread in many of the anti-government conspiracy rantings I've seen on the Internet is that they fail to provide the reader with any hint that there is publicly-available information that demonstrates the absurdity of the conspiracy theories. I can often debunk their arguments by simply directing folks to original documents so they can see for themselves that the conspiracists' characterizations of those documents is false or heavily biased.

>If it could be timed with some kind of Terroristic Counterfeiting Plot To Kill The U.S. Economony With Fake 20s, that would really do the trick!

But that would depend on a massive failure of the news media to uncover the truth. Ain't gonna happen.

>And stop picking on Andy, he just presented info that he came across, that may or may not be true.

a) Andy selects the items he presents, and is responsible for his selections.

b) Andy has a long history in this forum of presenting rubbish for which there exists no sound basis. I don't bother commenting on most of it. I'm commenting in this thread because the stuff at the top is more absurd than usual.

>Thats what this forum is all about, analyzing stuff like this, right?

So you have no objection to my doing so, right?

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

Andy,

>You make me want to puke,

... no doubt because I keep pointing out to other people that so much of what you post is nonsense. I'm sure you would very much like to be able to spin your tales without having someone point out the distortions and falsities therein.

>all you ever do is jump in and nit-pick and adversely criticise people and posts.

Actually, no, that is another of your falsities. I'm sure you'd like others to think that about me, but if they actually read all my constibutions they'd see that your characterization of them is false.

>I notice that you never post ANYTHINg original yourself...why not?

Actually, I've posted lots of original stuff.

Perhaps what you meant to write was that you don't notice that I start new threads. A long time ago, I started lots of new threads in Y2k forums. As time passed, more and more other contributors came in, starting threads themselves. Sometimes these were Y2k-newbies asking questions, to which I provided answers by posting to the threads they had started. Other times, folks started threads with good ideas just ahead of when I might've, so I refrained from duplicating their efforts.

About the time this TB2K forum took off, I began having less time to spend on contributions. I found that responding to existing threads took just about all the time I had for it. So I fell into the habit of simply contributing to existing threads, and I'm comfortable with that.

>I've done a lot of research on this whole thread, which is about GOLD after all, see the heading?, the dollar strip is a total side-issue

If you've done so much research on it, then why do you post stuff that is so obviously absurd?

If the dollar strip is a total side-issue, then why did you include it in your posting at the top of this thread?

What I think is going on here is that you are simply trying to draw the readers' attention away from my demolishment of the nonsense you posted.

>Adress the point of the article - why is gold being driven down? Otherwise you can go to hell IMHO.

Oh -- since you can't answer my objections, you declare them to be irrelevant. What a clever ploy. Not.

I told you that I would continue to expose your rhetorical trickery that you use to avoid dealing with your critics. I'm not surprised that you are angry that I do so. Tough. If you don't like the exposure, stop posting the nonsense.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

From North's newsletter this month:

In 1694, the Bank of England was founded by a group of wealthy investors, who cut a deal with the government for the right to create money. This model captured the world after World War I and the substitution of a fiat money standard for the gold coin standard. The triumph of central banking mandated the defeat of gold. This month, the Bank of England said it would sell off half of its gold reserves over the next year. This dropped the price of gold by about $15...not much: 5%.

Why do central bank still hold gold? why has it taken until today for the Grandmother of Central Banks...to say it plans to sell half its gold? Why have all central banks held onto an asset that has droppped from 840 to 265 an oz. over the last 19 years? Why did these banks hold any gold at all after 1918? After all, isn't gold a barbarous relic? Isn't it an asset that yields no interest? Why do the central banks still hold most of the world's gold reserves? Why haven't they sold it all to the public to buy government bonds? One sentence: THEY DO NOT TRUST OTHER CENTRAL BANKERS.

They settle their accounts in gold, most of which is stored in the New York Federal Reserve Bank's vaults or in Zurich. They use gold as the liquidity of last resort. They hold onto an asset that pays no interest BECAUSE IT PAYS NO INTEREST. They know that to pay interest means to borrow an asset, and the asset may not return. So, the central bankers refuse to lend the monetary asset which, above all others, they do not want to lose: gold.

(My comment: so the bank of England's announcement to sell is just that.)

The demonetization of gold in the free market has been accompanied by the complete monetization of gold in the ultimate monopoly market: central banking. The central bankers have sustained a war, not on gold, but upon private holders of gold, i.e., their competitors. They have systematically removed gold coins from circulation among the general public over the years and have replaced the coins with 400 oz. bars that they use to settle their accounts. They settle their acounts by moving bars of gold from national pile to pile in the NY FED's vault. This means that they have created a vast horde of gold ready to be confiscated by the U.S. military in any widespread social breakdown. They are really not very wise people. They are merely clever. They do not know history, especially the history of the later Roman Empire (See "Christ and the Caesars" where author traces the fall of Rome by tracing the debased coins that it issued.)

If central bankers do not trust other central bankers, why should generals trust any of them? The old story about gold and guns bears repeating: if one man owns gold, and the other owns a gun, soon the man with the gun will own the gold. Apply this in the context of military force. General so and so will issue gold as coins to his troops, who will spend them into circulation. The only limit will be the cooperative of the U.S. government and the production capacity of the mints. These are techinal matters in a social collapse. The public will eventually reclaim its gold in any society based on martial law. The military will act as the economic agent of the people.

Gold is the ultimate liquidity. It is the money that bankers trust. The public does not know what a gold coin is, but central bankers do. The gold coin has been the target of their confiscation plans for three centuries (1694). Why? Because an economy based on gold coins is an economy in which the public holds the hammer over the bankers. It's called a bank run. An international economy based on fiat money whose issue is controlled by central bankers requires a central bankers sub-economy based on gold bullion bars too large for the average person to own or use in exchange. For exchange to function, there must always be a way to pay up. For final transactions, that way has been gold. There must always be a monetary hammer. That hammer is gold. The question is: Who holds it?

The year 2000 is bad news for bankers.

How the banks will survive, I have no clue. Bankruptcies, both personal and corporate, will skyrocket. There will be massive defaults by overextended family-occupied homes. The courts will jam up with property cases, and banks will not get judges to consent to the eviction of voters. Anyone who has made three months of payments in late 1999 will be so far at the back of the line of mortgage defaulters that the creditors will never get to him should he default. If the banks are not shut down by an international interbank payments gridlock, then the runs will clean out their cash. The bank runs of 1932 were the worst of the Great Depression in America. This was over two years after the 1929 market crash.

The bankers today are terrified. I have never seen such fear in the guild. The same silly nonsense is on every banking Web site: robbers will get you if you hold cash; so, keep your money in the bank. Greenspan is even joining in . Never have we heard bankers plead so loudly that the public doesn't have to do this, that their funds are safe. WHO INSURES THE INSURER WHEN BANKRUPTCY IS UNIVERSAL?

Digital money will disappear in 2000, and with it, all the plans of a generation.....at that time, the great wealth transfer will take place: from those who had digital money to those who have currency, coins and real goods.

End

-- bb (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), June 09, 1999.

No spam, I feel quite sorry for you, you are in your own little world of delusion aren't you - one day you may wake up and realsie what a fool you've been but by then it will too late. Back to noddy-land NS you are obviously far happier there.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 09, 1999.

As for allegedly my posting "rubbish" and "nonsense" - your words simpleton...

">I've done a lot of research on this whole thread, which is about GOLD after all, see the heading?, the dollar strip is a total side- issue

If you've done so much research on it, then why do you post stuff that is so obviously absurd?

If the dollar strip is a total side-issue, then why did you include it in your posting at the top of this thread?

What I think is going on here is that you are simply trying to draw the readers' attention away from my demolishment of the nonsense you posted."

Here is a list of what I posted, all "nonsense" according to you...

1. Extract from recent Skolnick commentary.

2. Extract from "The Rothschilds, LBMA, and Gold"

3. "Major Currency Battle Now Underway Masked by Equity Bubble" - beaking news here...

4. "Golden Nuggets -or- A Barbarous Relic?" - breaking news...

5. "GOLD AND SILVER REVISITED" - a worthy article revisited...

As another forum member so eloquently put it, and it PARTICULARLY applies to the schwein NO SPAM - our resident Nazi apologist for the Fed and Fiat Bankers...

"I fear that you are simply casting pearls before swine. Most will not attempt to read it, much less understand it. Oh well."

Back to sleep MeerKat, this century is past your bedtime...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 09, 1999.

Here is another excellent article regarding gold from the Gold-Eagle site:

1. Extract from recent Skolnick commentary.

[That first Skolnick extract is the only part I've addressed. The next four that Andy lists are parts about which I've made no comment -- parts I have NOT called "nonsense". Yet Andy claims that they were "all 'nonsense' according to [me]". Anyone who's paid attention to what I've written above can see that that claim is false. I have not called any of the following four items in Andy's list "nonsense", though I reserve the right to do so if and when I do actually address any of them.]

2. Extract from "The Rothschilds, LBMA, and Gold"

3. "Major Currency Battle Now Underway Masked by Equity Bubble" - beaking news here...

4. "Golden Nuggets -or- A Barbarous Relic?" - breaking news...

5. "GOLD AND SILVER REVISITED" - a worthy article revisited...

How is calling me "schwein" or "resident Nazi apologist" justified? It isn't.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

-- Off Off (OffIs@y.com), June 09, 1999.

Not sure what happened in Ray's posting or mine, but here's mine again:

Folks,

Notice how Andy once again uses a rhetorical device, the "straw man", to avoid dealing with my critique honestly:

Here is a list of what I posted, all "nonsense" according to you...

[Notice the smooth way in which Andy avoids acknowledging that my objections have been about the posting at the top of the thread. He pretends that the subject of my critique has been the whole thread instead of just the first part. Then, by referencing parts of this thread I've never commented about and applying my "nonsense" label to those other parts, he tries to make me look bad by making it seem as though I had called those other parts "nonsense". This is rhetorical trickery, not honest confrontation of my criticisms.]

1. Extract from recent Skolnick commentary.

[That first Skolnick extract is the only part I've addressed. The next four that Andy lists are parts about which I've made no comment -- parts I have NOT called "nonsense". Yet Andy claims that they were "all 'nonsense' according to [me]". Anyone who's paid attention to what I've written above can see that that claim is false. I have not called any of the following four items in Andy's list "nonsense", though I reserve the right to do so if and when I do actually address any of them.]

2. Extract from "The Rothschilds, LBMA, and Gold"

3. "Major Currency Battle Now Underway Masked by Equity Bubble" - beaking news here...

4. "Golden Nuggets -or- A Barbarous Relic?" - breaking news...

5. "GOLD AND SILVER REVISITED" - a worthy article revisited...

Why does Andy do that? Why does he make such a plainly false accusation? And then, why does he sink into lower rhetorical depths with the following name-calling?

As another forum member so eloquently put it, and it PARTICULARLY applies to the schwein NO SPAM - our resident Nazi apologist for the Fed and Fiat Bankers...

Notice how Andy now gets nastier, still not honestly addressing my objections to Skolnick's commentary.

How is calling me "schwein" or "resident Nazi apologist" justified?

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

I think Andy is right. After all, this Skolnick guy just concluded that a US Navy ship had been sunk by a Russian sub based on the following conclusive evidence:

1. The ship's website was down.

2. No e-mail had been received from the ship in some time.

Now, how do you argue with logic like that. This Skolnick is a genius!! We should all be awaiting his next report at sightings.com with baited breath!

OR

Try this scenario:

1. Gary North told me to cash in everything and buy gold.

2. I did and now I am watching my investment drop instead of increase.

3. Either Gary North was wrong and I am an idiot for listening to him or there must be some sort of conspiracy ... yeah, that's it A GOLD CONSPIRACY, yeah, that's the ticket!

-- Do You See (howstupid@youlook.com), June 09, 1999.

My god it's very hard to argue with a non-entity (coward) like did you see, or even, mein gott, no spam please ( where do these wankers get their handles from. must take fucking years of reserach),

The whole fucking thread was and still is about GOLD, geddit?, personally I've learned a hell of a lot, I think I've learned so much that I can plan my STRATEGY over the next year or two, I just cannot believe the antics of you wankers that just mean to belittle me for the sake of it - you are some sad mf's - yes I am extremely bloody annoyed because I have heard absolutely "dick" from my detractors - post something substantive for a freakin' change - we're all waiting.

and the little man hiding behind his little sorry-assed handle - try telling me that shit face to face mother FUCKER!!!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 10, 1999.

Andy,

>The whole fucking thread was and still is about GOLD, geddit?,

Does that mean you acknowledge that what Skolnick says about paper money is a bunch of hooey that has no realistic basis? That you are disavowing that part of what you quote from Skolnick?

>just mean to belittle me for the sake of it

No, Andy, my postings have dealt with, first, what you posted, then, second, your rhetorical trickery. Had you not posted the nonsense or attempted the rhetorical trickery, I'd not have responded. Your accusation of belittlement for the sake of it is simply another rhetorical effort to distract from the substance of my criticism of what Skolnick uttered about currency.

>post something substantive for a freakin' change

I did -- see my above challenges to what you quote of Skolnick's ridiculous speculations about paper money. You have not yet answered some of my challenges -- do you admit that you cannot defend those aspects of Skolnick's fantasies?

>try telling me that shit face to face mother FUCKER!!!

Why? Do you want to use physical violence to express your frustration about my challenges to Skolnick's nonsense and your rhetorical tricks? Is that it, Andy?

Why not just non-violently either (a) meet my challenges to Skolnick's nonsense without rhetorical trickery, or (b) admit that Skolnick is wrong in what he says about paper currency?

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 10, 1999.

MeerKat,

you are but a midge that I will SWAT,

as regards GOLD and the fiat money system, the shenanigans going on now, the great game (wasted, I know.......).......

you quite franKly do not have a clue, will never have, and what is probably the worst - have no DESIRE to have a clue

nighty-night, sleep tight, don't let the y2k bugs byte(tm)...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 10, 1999.

Folks,

Notice how Andy continues to dance around the subject of Skolnick's comments on paper money, which constituted slightly over half of the excerpt that Andy chose to quote to start this thread, without admitting that Skolnick's comments are nonsensical.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), June 10, 1999.

Aaww, do poor wittle Andy get his feelings hurt? Poor wittle baby!! I guess the phrase "he can dish it out but he sure can't take it" is appropriate here.

"My god it's very hard to argue with a non-entity (coward) like did you see, or even, mein gott, no spam please ( where do these wankers get their handles from. must take fucking years of reserach)"

I'm sure it is difficult to argue when your primary sources are as worthless as Skolnick. Anyone seen the USS Gonzales lately? And I'm sure you prefer much more clever handles likes your buddies 'a' and 'Will Continue'.

"The whole fucking thread was and still is about GOLD, geddit?"

Yes, do you? Do you get it that North and Skolnick are both paranoid delusionals who have no clue about finance or economics or the gold market so, when something happens that they don't understand, they fall back on the conspiracy angle? If the price of gold is still dropping this close to TEOTW as they predict it, then they have to come up with a new story or they look like idiots as well as those who followed their advice.

"yes I am extremely bloody annoyed because I have heard absolutely "dick" from my detractors - post something substantive for a freakin' change - we're all waiting. "

OK, here is something substantive: Look I found Andy's brain and here it is - .

"and the little man hiding behind his little sorry-assed handle - try telling me that shit face to face mother FUCKER!!! "

Not sure if this was directed at me or No Spam but if it was to me, let me say "Ooohhh! I'm so scared!" Boy, you talk -- I mean type -- like a big man. You feel it is your God-given right to ridicule and insult anyone who disagrees with you but you can't take a little mild ribbing back at you. I guess Poole's little discourse hit too close to home. What a pussy you must be! If you can't stand the heat ...

-- Do You See (howstupid@youlook.com), June 10, 1999.

why not buy gold with your old paper money now, its international the Bank of England is supposedly offloading half its reserves of gold in only 2 years

-- dick of the dale (rdale@coynet.com), June 10, 1999.

to the puerile idioy who won't use his real name I will cream your ass should I ever meet you personally - you are a coward, hiding in cyberspace :)

offski, little one

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 10, 1999.

Temper temper, Andy. If you really feel that Skolnick's fantasies are properly defended if you beat someone up, I'm sure your neighbors are easier to find. Why don't you try it, and we'll see if Skolnick's consipiracy looks any more likely, OK?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), June 10, 1999.

Flint,

thank you - I have calmed down now :)

as usual you miss the whole fucking point - GOLD, moron, read the title of the thread, same goes for meer cat and the other pultroon,

no fucking clue any of you

offski

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 11, 1999.

Pansy wrote:

"to the puerile idioy [sic] who won't use his real name I will cream your ass should I ever meet you personally - you are a coward, hiding in cyberspace :) "

And you are not a coward hiding in cyber space, making idle threats? You are a pathetic piece of dung! Want my real name? It's Ron. Happy now? You now know as much about me as I do about you so drop the little baby whining act about anonymous people. With few exceptions, everyone on this forum is anonymous. Now, are you going to respond or are you going to continue to act like a three year old and pout because Poole hurt your feelings? Pussy!!

-- Do You See (howstupid@youlook.com), June 11, 1999.

This is my real e-mail id, as always. 2000EOD@prodigy.net address 4400 south monaco #815 denver co 80237

tel 303 770 74788

you are a fucking pussy call me up big bou and I'll correct the error of your ways...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), June 11, 1999.

As an occassional 'Lurker', I've just spent a lot of time reading Andy's and No Spam's posts. You are both intelligent people. And your spat is quite entertaining (if childish) I suppose. Pity you resort to such pettiness. At the end of the day, you both look like dickheads. Wake up, guys. Basically, it's only your egos that seperate you.

igw@one.net.au

-- igw (igw@one.net.au), June 15, 1999.

This appeared on another forum about 5 days ago. I've removed the poster's name and ID to protect that person's privacy.

BEGIN REPRINT

Here's what I've heard

From: XXXXXXXXXX Date: 6/10/99 Time: 5:38:30 AM Remote Name: XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Comments

Our telcons, utilities & banks are still insisting they're doing just fine. My bank, until now, has been claiming y2k compliance. They tell you on the ATM screen as soon as you "log on"! But now the message says y2k READY. But pretty well nearly every senior banking official has cashed out his/her investment holdings & have converted to cash, T bills & gold. Got this from brother in law, BIG investment banker type.

[remainder of post deleted]

Last changed: June 10, 1999

END REPRINT

Please note what the banking officials are doing, and what they're converting to.

-- LP (soldog@nohotmail.com), June 15, 1999.

I had forgotten about this thread, just remembered it, and checked it out to see what had been happening over the course of a week. Boy, it sure started out great, then went downhill fast!

Look, nobody knows what the future holds. With 6 1/2 months to go until the Big One, I think everyone is apprehensive. Just as conventional investment methodology has always stressed the need for a "diverse portfolio", I think that concept still applies for Y2K. Its just that instead of stocks, bonds, mutual funds its more like survival property and goods, barter goods, gold, silver, and cash.

And I think that anyone who prepares for Y2K as if it is going to be a major event is clearly going to take a "hit" if it turns out to be a minor event. This means, for instance, accepting the fact that buying precious metals may result in a loss rather than a gain. On the other hand, you clearly gain a measure of direct control of your wealth that you would not otherwise have.

And I still say that this forum is founded on the idea of being able to discuss relevant issues, such as why the Bank of England announced the selling of half its gold, whether new paper money may cause a recall of old, etc., etc. I think No Spam Please was absolutely on target in pointing out a big hole in the original post regarding the "metal" strip that really is not. I think that if one aspect of a story is found to not hold up under scrutiny, then it casts the entire story in a doubtful light. But I don't think that we should somehow hold Andy "responsible" for anything other than bringing to our attention information that is quite relevant and worthy of our discussion.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), June 15, 1999.