Hi Folks,

thought we might start accumulating a few examples of what constitutes a deletable troll post. As my first suggestion I'd like to submit the following which has been inserted by someone who sounds distinctly like the doc paulie troll in several threads this evening: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't you people realize you've been had??? Ed Yourdon has bailed off the Y2K radar screen because if things don't get bad, he'll be long forgotten by the end of the year. Sheeple have short memories. Why put all that work into something and then bail out. He's dumb like a fox and took all our money with him. I wonder who the sheeple REALLY are???

Been had big time.

-- Sucka (Beenhad@yourdonsite.com), May 31, 1999.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Answers

then there's also the y2k kid's contribution to the rollcall thread:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll be laughing at the death lovers cowering in their bunkers from the middle of Waco Texas.

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), May 31, 1999.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Personally Arlin,

I'd vote, for now, something deletable is extreme profanity.

Perhaps we can try to "let it flow" and see what happens. Censorship could be a double-edged sword, as gilda pointed out.

Something like (fill in the missing letters)...

"You m*therf**king... etc." should get blasted.

Paul Milne's "buttheads" though objectionable, to some, don't rise to the level of profanity, IMHO.

Diane

Other comments?

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Sheesh!

That "Sucka" post is one about 5 or 6 different threads!

What a troll.

(Trying to take a "light" hand right now).

**&&$#%$^%##&^!!

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

While I agree that it's defamatory, it's NOT QUITE deletable. There have been cases that HAVE crossed that line, but this one simply defines the line, from the non-deletable side.

C

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Hi gang!

Diane sent me an e-mail about the Sucka message. Here's how I responded to her:

Hi Diane...

Frankly, I don't think that Sucka message is worth bothering with. I'll tell you why. I think that guy's got a valid perspective. I don't agree with him, but in the realm of possibility, that's the kind of thing that people are going to say. And frankly, he might be right? How do we know? It's benign...

So, it gets said, then what happens? A few people get embarassed or enraged, and someone asks you to delete the message. (hypothetically) Then there's a choice to be made - to delete? or to not delete? If things start to get deleted, two things will happen. The whiners will start whining about free speech. (lawyers or members of the ACLU, none) Then the debate will shift fom Y2K to the First amendment. The next thing will be that the trolls will start acting like two year-olds with keyboards testing how far Mom and Dad can be pushed.

So, if the delete key gets used (and ESPECIALLY on something that isn't BLATANLY profane and disgusting) the next thing that will happen, along with the two-year old boundary testers, will be people will start getting into the habit of asking you to delete messages and threads. That's probably a slipperier slope than the freedom of speech zombies. You'll start getting e-mail to delete benign messages, then you'll get e-mail asking "why DIDN'T you delete that message I asked you to delete?" Then wars will break out and you'll be spending your days in front of the Admin page. (or I will spend my days in front of the Admin page!)

No, I think the delete key should be treated with as much respect as the nuclear trigger. And, ESPECIALLY NOW! This is the time when people will test to see what the new sheriff in town is like. If the new sheriff comes out shooting, then the local townsfolk are gonna hide behind the badge, and not do any patrolling themsleves, and resent the new sheriff, and all that stuff. You do a much better job moderating things as Diane Squire giving your opinion than you ever could as the invisible sysop deleting messages. Treat the delete key like you would a firearm because it has that much power.

IMHO, one of the worst things that can happen in the ongoing Polly/Doomer debate is this: "Ed split, and now the doomers are in charge of the forum and they have the POWER to remove things they don't agree with! Not only do they irrationally ARGUE and name call against things they disagree with, they actively DELETE them!" The Pollys will have won the debate if this happens, and Y2K will stop being the issue. We need to rise above that and not give them the opportunity to say that. The first time that delete key gets used, it's all downhill ...

'Nuff said..

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

The "mom & dad" role is certainly something to be avoided!

Why can't these kids leave the nest?

;-D

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

I really really really believe that the only things that should be considered deletable are completely off-topic, PROFANE personal attacks. I think that profanity, if it's on topic, should be kept, personal attacks that are NOT profane should be kept, and the forum should respond to these people. That has been the established standard up to this point, and I think that setting a precedent that changes that is asking for trouble. I might not like many of the things that are said, sensibility-wise, but this entire Y2K thing is not here to play to my sensibilities.

As always, if someone doesn't like what's being said, they can ignore it, or respond to it. If Doc Paulie, or whoever, thinks we;ve been had, so be it. If one of us disagrees with that, we should respond and say why we disagree, rather than remove it. I feel strongly about this...

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Try - as a starter "rule of thumb" - delete single message only - only if it is presonally and absolutely profanity + involves a personal body part of another reader + has no readeeming social value.

Yes - it is a nuclear trigger - treat it that way, but even Truman had to use the trigger twice. Once to show "we had it, we have the will and the right to use it" - and the second time to show "and we can do it again". The result? The Japanese emperor could surrender and save the rest of his nation. If the bomb had not been used - as horrible as it was - the Emperor could not have surrendered, and both sides would have had many million more casualities.

To explain. A "Damn" or "Damn You" or even "MotherF..R" would be at the line, (but not over it), but an entire post of nothing more than these is unacceptable.

A single reply, or group of directly, personally abusive posts, attacking a person obscenely, would have to be pruned.

Trigger question: would you want your 14 year old son or daughter to print this thread and use it as a reference in a school paper?

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Looking the "first" post above in the original question above:

No - leave it.

Why? Its his opinion, he expressed it cleanly and clearly - it's wrong, but so what?

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

the only other thing that might be instantly deletable would be addresses posted by someone OTHER than the address resident.

cf: My experience.

Chuck

(For example... and just testing Chuck... Diane)

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Ooo...

That's a good one Chuck.

Also, how about a troll stealing someone else's name and posting with it.

My experience... repeatedly.

(Did you know you can actually edit a post?)

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Yep... that works.

-- Anonymous, June 01, 1999

Of course, Chuck is right. If someone posts addresses, phone numbers, Social Security numbers, credit card info, stuff like that, it should be removed immediately.

As far as removing imposter posts, I think that's a tricky one! Diane, I know you've been bugged by that in the past, and I certainly sympathize. However, I have a feeling that once some troll imposters a regular poster, and sees that it gets deleted/changed, they'll come out of the woodwork and swamp the forum with imposter posts just to keep us busy. I think that the natural response that always happens now, of regulars saying "that doesn't sound like so an so" and so and so denying that it was real works much better. I really believe that deleting stuff is asking for trouble. It may be best to forget you have that power. When it becomes necessary, it'll be obvious. (like all that old Chittum stuff.)

The charm of this forum is its openness. There are plenty of places to gather information on preps and the like, this place has become so popular because it really does look at the big picture. Certainly, there are problems with that, but there are problems in all aspects of life. I think the forum would lose much of its value (and yes, charm) if the parameters were tightened.

Just my humble opinion...

-- Anonymous, June 02, 1999

Suppose it's always a case-by-case basis.

I can recall people pointing out to Ed that a thread needed deleteing, and often he did.

For a couple cases today, flagged by Kevin and by Tom, there was something flammingly "profane" that required a delete.

Walk softly. Still wearing moccasins.

;-D

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 03, 1999

BTW,

Ed lurks practically daily. He also flagged me on a "need to delete" post that other's did as well yesterday.

;-D

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 03, 1999

Here's a recent example of Rick Cowles acting as a moderator:

Stand alone ad hominem attacks are not tolerated in this forum, and will be immediately removed. Challenge the idea, not the person.

-- Rick Cowles (rcowles.remove@waterw.com), June 17, 1999.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 1999

Tom,

I've come to the conclusion that we'll all NEVER agree on what constitutes a deletable post... at least on Forum Classic.

Right now there are a LOT of posters steeling other's handles and posting under the false name. Unless it rises to the occasion of "obscene/profane" or someone flags us on it, we won't know.

I had to tell someone, Anita, that we couldn't agree to delete anything other that the profane thingy. Maria, steeling Anita's name posted:

I eat dog food.

Anita

Answered by Anita (spoonera@msn.com)

Anita, a relative newbie, who also posts a lot on De Bunker, was upset about it, and contacted me requesting a delete.

*Sigh*

There have been a couple threads with totally messed up HTML codes... one that would no longer allow anyone to submit a new response. Buddy created that one. Had to wipe out the whole thread.

On another someone created an auto load plug-in and then flagged the Sysop on another thread to attend to the problem. I ended uunbale to halt loading it and had to reformat my HD as a consequence.

These are a recent sample of some "no contest" deletable entries and most that are "on the cusp" posts:

Obvious... a little "gem from Maria...

Penis Envy

I wish I were a man.

*sigh*

Diane

Answered by Diane J. Squirt (SexySpaces@Eatme.com) from 130.110.106.160 on May 27, 1999.

Or...

Oh, one more thing. i forgot to tell ya how much i just luv to masterbate in the closet when my grandkids are over!

Answered by al-d (catt@zianet.com) from 205.243.239.168 on June 13, 1999.

NOT al-d posting.

Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com) sample posts as b (b@b.b) ...

uh, fellas?? diane made it perfectly clear on another thread that she suffers from penis envy and secretly wishes she was a man.......i'm afraid you'll have to stroke that monkey to a different tune boys!!

...under Postings from 206.102.206.143

i think smitty has a thing for assholes
Answered by b (b@b.b) from 206.102.206.143 on May 12, 1999.

looks like john has a thing for smitties asshole
Answered by b (b@b.b) from 206.102.206.143 on May 12, 1999.

OTHER examples:

Several poster asked for a DELETE so I did...

Pumpernickle bread thread...

Shut the fuck up with this trite shit. Go buy a fucking cook book you stupid twit

Answered by corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net) from 24.93.104.239 on June 21, 1999.

Or...

I would like to say I am very sorry for being an asshole all the time. You must understand that after smoking crack alnight and then making them super hot Burger King fries I am tired and a tad pissy by the time I get on my computer. So to all my Y2K buddies I am sorry.

Y2K Pro

It was a fake poster steeling his handle... someone who does that a lot.

(8 regulars requested the whole thread be deleted, so I did).

CONCLUSION:

A large percentage of the "potty" posts and handle steeling posts are coming from the De Bunker crowd.

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 23, 1999

So, solution Tom?

A 2nd forum devoted to Prep-only, for newbies, and a place for help during the next five months. With clear posting guidelines.

There... we can be like Rick Cowles.

Working on it now.

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 23, 1999

Solutions, you want? Alas. If I had solutions I wouldn't be wandering in the forest.

Just a minnit -- is that a little gingerbread house up ahead there?

Seriously -- a strictly regulated PREP forum, maybe with real names and real addresses, sounds like it would work.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 1999

We are probably NOT going to require real names and addresses, as SOME of the topics which ARE prep oriented, might be of a nature that the folks might not want to use real names. Besides, some of our best posters on Classic are anon. And YES, I got a mouse in my pocket and NO that ain't the royal "we".

LOL

Chuck

BTW see "BattaBing, Something NEAT this way comes for a description of the concept.

C

-- Anonymous, June 24, 1999