There has been much importance attached to labelling people on the Forum.As someone who is an 8-9 on the Beaufort Scale,I suppose I would be called a doomer.

Am I wearing sackcloth & ashes?Am I overcome with suicidal feelings? Do I liken next year to the birthing process or the grieving process.

Fiddlesticks!!!!!Poppy Cock !!! Pap !!!

Come admit it folks.This is one of the most exciting times of our lives.What a physical & intellectual challenge!

No, "doomer" is completely the wrong word for many of us.We are not the ones consigning ourselves to death,destruction or ruin.

PS.Anybody else honest enough to admit enjoying themselves.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), May 24, 1999

Answers

Finally! Another doomer admitting to enjoying his end of the world fantasies. Yes, the rest of you, speak up, speak up!

-- Bump (in@theroa.d), May 24, 1999.

Dear Bump, I would like to correct two assumptions in your reply:

1.I did not mean to imply that I wish the world as we know it to grind to halt.Far from it.I shall breathe a huge sigh of relief if we have a bump in the road.Nothing we have done to prepare will be rendered obsolete or useless if life continues as usual.

2.Sometimes I wish I was a man but not that often !

The key message was that I, personally, am enjoying the challenge of preparing and am looking forward to next year whatever happens.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), May 24, 1999.

Chris

"enjoying" the situation would not be the correct way of discribing my feelings toward Y2K. Wittnessing an important historic time would be my version. Like a "sense of wonder". Surreal is another discription.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), May 24, 1999.

I think Brian has aptly described how I feel about Y2K. I am not at all unhappy about the prospect of the IRS, Social Security, AFDC, and the rest of the welfare system crashing and burning. A certain amount of deep satisfaction comes to mind when I visualize hundreds of thousands of lawyers, feminist/ecology activists, and government bureaucrats having to take productive jobs (probably as unskilled laborers) for the first time in their lives, instead of continuing their current roles as the economic equivalent of mosquitos. However, one thing suffices by itself to keep me from feeling warmly overall toward Y2K: it is when I see some intelligent little kid (under age 6, especially) and visualize how things are likely to be for him/her in 9-10 months. Regardless of how we argue as to whose fault Y2K really is, it is definitely not that little kid's fault that all this is going to happen to him. My own sister is currently pregnant, and as a DGI/DWGI she cannot understand why I am nothing but sad about what she thinks is a wonderful event. If having our beloved country descend into a cross between the worst parts of the poor people's lives depicted by Charles Dickens and The Gulag Archipelago (by Alexander Sozhenitsyn) is the price we have to pay for quickly ridding ourselves of immoral nonsense (that we should never allowed to see the light of day in the first place), then I for one would have been willing to wait a little bit longer for a return to the Founding Father's vision of what America is supposed to be like.

website: www.y2ksafeminnesota.com OR http://y2ksafeminnesota.hypermart.net

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), May 24, 1999.

Chris,

I see your point but I do feel a certains sense of, I guess "dread" would be the closest word I can think of - this is because I'm not looking at the pure y2k problem in and of itself, but of how y2k can and will be used as a catalyst for a lot of governments to settle old scores and increase their control on us all. My other major concern is "poisonfire" - perhaps the most underestimated factor, which is what pushes me to an 11 on a 1 to 10 scale.

Still, I'm here, I'm still preparing so I may as well sit back and watch events unfold. There is nothing I can do personally about the unfolding events. I was originally planning on bugging out somewhere "safe" - but now I've decided to work with my buddies at rollover on a large worldwide complex of mainframes. A front row seat if you will.

As the Chinese curse goes "may you live in interesting times"...

Other than perhaps being born in 1918, and fighting in WW II, I can't think of a more "interesting" time to be alive.

Later,

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), May 24, 1999.

Doomer really ticked me off for a while. I liked GI so much better! But we live in changing times I guess. So, sticks and stones...

Almost doomer, <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 24, 1999.

What about the "pollyanna" label? I am someone who believes that Y2K will have a barely perceptible impact on the man in the street, so that marks me as a pollyanna. I can't help feeling, though, that the label is inappropriately feminine. Can't we come up with another one for male pollys? Suggestions on a postcard please.

Oh, Chris, I notice from your e-mail address that you are possibly British. Is that true? If so, I'd like to say hello to the first British doomer I've ever come across. Hello Chris!

-- Richard Dymond (rjdymond@x-stream.co.uk), May 25, 1999.

Chris,

I believe I know what you are trying to say. Chris in no way ment to belittle or down play the inevitable journey humanity is about take. I have always felt that one of the biggest factors that separates the "GI's" from the "DGI's" is the ability to look beyond our own backyard and have compassion for our fellows.

And those that are only able to prepare for themselves and their families...not a thing wrong with that. The worn out, but so true saying, "If you aren't a part of the solution, you can only be a part of the problem," fits exactly; and I think that is what Chris was focusing on here; the personal satisfaction of being a part of the solution. The personal pride that knowing you have done your best within your ability and means; you have identified the personal challenge and you are succeeding. This is totally separate from our worries about global effects.

Chris, personally, I have always thrived under just enough pressure and stress. A fixed deadline is certainly a great motivator isn't it? I can't think right off hand of a more fixed deadline that January 1, 2000.

No one can ever say preparation is easy, it certainly is not. But there is no reason for anyone to feel badly about the peace of mind that comes with reaching ones personal goals, nor for admitting enjoying one's personal triumphs towards this end. This is just to much darn hard work to be motivated by pessimism! Of course DGI's are only to eager to critisize and misinterpret GIs in this respect.

Doomers is an undeserved title. The optimism on this forum is more often than not clouded by the lack of truthfulness from those in our governments and industies. The emotion of the moment, however, in no way undermines the inherit optimism most of us feel. If a person anticipates a "10" factor, it is personal optimism, not pessimism that motivates that individual to work so hard to meeting their preparation goals.

If a person anticipates vulnerability from a "bump in the road", it is personal optimism, not pessimism that motivates them to prepare for their family's concerns.

Could it not be said that only a true pessimist would do nothing?

Which person is right or wrong, I will leave for another time, another debate.

-- Lilly (homesteader145@yahoo.com), May 25, 1999.

"Doomer" and "Polly" are both perjoratives -- convenient pigeonholes to allow people to dismiss the "other". As I've said elsewhere, folks like Flint and Mr. Decker are "Doomers" to the majority of people outside this forum.

My attitude toward Y2K? I've always loved that moment from Samuel L. Jackson in Jurassic Park. He's made the fixes as best he can, he's about to bring the system back into "production", and no one's too sure that they aren't about to get attacked by things with BIG TEETH. He reaches for the switch, then looks at everyone else, and says:

"Hold on to your butts!"

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), May 25, 1999.

no, chris, i am not enjoying this at all. you must be considerably younger than me. in my twenties, i might have been dumb enough to find this exciting. but in my forties, i find all this to be a pain in the butt. i have better things to do. i think there's also a male/female dichotomy. men are having more fun than women with this, IMHO.

-- jocelyne slough (jonslough@tln.net), May 25, 1999.

Richard:

Pollyandy?

Just a thought-Linda

-- newbiebutnodummy (Linda@home.com), May 25, 1999.

Chris-----Rather than think of myself as a "doomer" I like to think of myself as "enlightened" and that my behavior is as in "enlightened self interest" So rather than be called the "d" word maybe we should call ourselves the "enlightenists". There that should get some flames but without that mental outlook how else will I be able to "think I can make it" thru this "Y2K thing".

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), May 25, 1999.

How about "elitists" ???

-- don't like doomer? (think@you.know), May 25, 1999.

Dont Like Dommer-----Isnt that what "B" "J" Klooton is?

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), May 25, 1999.

Chris...I agree with the change in Doomer usage. A person who is a DOOMER was one who was highly pessimistic on a positive Y2k outcome. Those who are truly DOOMED are people who do not think about cause and effect, will not prepare and unfortunately suffer the consequences if Y2K hits the food and water supplies hard.

I have also thought of the statement,"The self fulfilling prophecy" as applied to the then doomer. The implications were the doomers would be the cause of bank runs and thereby fulfilling the prophecy of collapse. Once again, the "self fulfilling prophecy" can go to the other side of thinking. If one thinks only of the "bump in the road" theme as played out in the media and Govt., one may prepare minimally, thus induce "the self fulfilling prophecy" of starvation and dehydration. Whatever is convenient for the opposite side to say can be applied to the other. The problem is: people cannot recognize how incredibly SUBTLE problems (failure of the media) can all of the sudden become OVERT problems, as the case is with embedded systems. They think we can throw money at it to solve it. We could have if we threw money at it a few years back in time.Even though money was never the issue, Time is. Do not DOOM yourself and do not create your own SELF FULFILLING PROPHECY. Don't get caught up in the debate for debate sake. Take care of your helpless, jobless, uninformed children. Do you have insurance on your car or home. You can literally eat consumers insurance out of a can and get your moneys worth out of it, penny for penny.

Sincerly, Feller

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), May 25, 1999.

A fascinating point Chris. It has also struck me that many people who have absolutely nothing to do with computers, relate predictions of technological disaster with such obvious delight.

Heard an excellent program recently on NPR. "This American Life" did a show on the theme of Apocalypse. The entire piece was quite interesting, but the part I liked the best was with writer Sarah Vowell, who describes "how believing in the end of the world can be the best thing that ever happens to you". She pithily recounts her own experience with Christian fundamentalism and fears of nuclear holocaust and compares these with the current hysteria. "This is how Y2K differs from previous apocalypses, the old ones, we knew exactly what would happen, we just didn't know the date, Y2K we know the date, it is what will happen that is up in the air."

But here is the part that addresses your point: "This is the thing you might not realize about end-of-the-worlders. They might seem like they are all about fetishizing doom and destruction, but stick around long enough for them to finish their spiel (few people do, I know) and before long they get to a straight-up utopian vision of the world."

This is true for suicide cults like Heaven's Gate and Solar Temple, but it is just as true for somebody like Gary North who dreams of the destruction of the government of the United States and its replacement with a Christian theocracy.

But for regular folks, I think the desire is more visceral: they see TEOTWAWKI as a great leveler, the smart ass kids with disgusting fortunes and high-tech toys will be laid as low as the poor who live in trailer parks. Specialized training and university education will be out, common sense and pioneer resourcefulness will be returned to its former glory. In this way, Y2K is really a retelling of the story of Babel, where God punishes Man for taking too much pride in his accomplishments.

As for MinnesotaSmith (a case in point?) and the cheery vision of "hundreds of thousands of lawyers, feminist/ecology activists, and government bureaucrats having to take productive jobs (probably as unskilled laborers) for the first time in their lives, instead of continuing their current roles as the economic equivalent of mosquitos", all I can say is Chairman Mao couldn't have said it better himself. This was precisely his policy in China during the "Great Leap Forward".

I guess I should thank my lucky stars that he has not put computer nerds on that list ... yet.

P.S. This is all very much from a North American perspective, what's it like in the UK?

-- Computer Pro (first_minister@hotmail.com), May 25, 1999.

Would I be a happy camper if after this "Y2K thing" there will be productive jobs even if they are as unskilled laborers for all of the hundreds of thousands of lawyers, feminist/ecology activists and government bureaucrats. Wiht hundreds of thousands of productive jobs after the year 2000 then TEOTWAWKI probably won't be that bad after all. It looks like there is a light at the end of this Y2K tunnel... Great news.

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), May 25, 1999.

And I wondered whether I would get a reply !!

Brian, The parable of the house built on sand comes to mind.Historic times ahead and a true test of humanity & also individual empowerment.Two omitted digits & our society could grind or shudder to stop.Yep, that's surreal !

Minnesota,

Loved your description of beaurocrats,lawyers etc as economic mosquitos.I take your point about the children but would add the medically dependant also, as being possibly the real victims of Y2K.

The other night,at home we ran through the different members of our family who would not be with us today if it hadn,t been for modern medical treatment.(post 1949).Including the children that would not have been born,only my mother & father-in law would have been alive out of a total of 11 alive today. I am not so worried about the children'education if their parents are prepared to spend time teaching their offspring but do worry about bright kids without parental support.

Andy,

Personally,I think any government is going to be too overwhelmed by the scale of the events and the resources too stretched to implement the kind of scenario you fear.By the way,what is "poisonfire"?

Sysman,

May you always stand four square to the Wind.

Richard,

What about a wally as the main equivalent of a polly...as in polly wally doodle !No??

Oh yes,I am one of those rare species,the lesser spotted English doomer.To be found in the West of England,Nesting in an old cottage.Call:gentle warbling only shrieking occasionally.Preferred food:chocolate & fresh cream cakes.Mating habits:monogamous.Usual Plumage:old gardening clothes.

Lilly,

In order to be able to maintain a sane perspective on Y2K,I have compartmentalised the various aspects.I firmly believe that one must look after the family before others so this was my starting point.I also believe as you said,that one can only help others effectively by being strong oneself - both mentally & physically.

I believe that empathy by itself will not be enough.Compassion & understanding & tolerance yes. Both my husband & self also know our own personal strengths & weaknesses.You will not find me volunteering to help with the sick but I'll be the first there to help with gardening,chopping wood,running messages etc.

Mac.

I hate horror movies.I cannot even watch the original King Kong without being scared to death.OK,laugh but it is true. I'll remember that quote.Do you mean I should hold onto my water butts at the rollover ??

Dear Jocelyne,

Thanks for the compliment...I think.Maybe I'll grow up when I reach my 50th birthday in August .Who the devil wants to keep in the same old mindset when the wind of change is blowing ?

Dear Thinking Person,

A positive mental attitude is no bad thing.I know what it is like to be depressed for long periods..you end up like the proverbial rabbit caught in the car's headlights.Enlightened self interest or working towards a sustainable lifestyle...whatever does it for you.

PS.Sounds as though you ought to change your call sign to: know I can(I knowIcan@make it)

Dear Feller,

As Sysman said earlier "Sticks & Stones" etc.The great thing about having grown-up kids is that one can have the time to debate.This is where the Forum comes into its own.There is nobody around this town who is remotely interested in Y2K.Few people too who enjoy tossing ideas backwords & forwards.Closed minds all.

"Live for the Day" is their credo.Unfortunately most people have forgotten the tag..which is "for tomorrow you may die".

...................................................................

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), May 25, 1999.

Computer Pro, In the Uk,Conspiracy theories & Orwellian scenarios are not taken seriously.

As for myself I am not politically minded nor do I have follow any particular religeous belief.I am not a slave to envy either.So no axe to grind in being a "doomer".

If things go awry,life will be far from utopian so no fantasy there.

I'm just a person who likes a challenge,simple as that.Its rather like riding a big wave and gambling your life (possibly)on the outcome.Wanna bet ??

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), May 25, 1999.

"Those who are truly DOOMED are people who do not think about cause and effect, will not prepare and unfortunately suffer the consequences if Y2K hits the food and water supplies hard."

Feller, I like the way you think! What a great line. The DGI crowd could turn out to be thr real DOOMERS here. Hey, and they both start with D! Yes, I like it... <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 25, 1999.

Chris-----I took my handle from that great story of the little train who was climbing up this hugh mountain and with every inch up the mountain the little train would say "I think I can, I think I can" Now when the little train got to the top it said "I knew I could, I knew I could" That's what I will be saying in 2000. "I knew I could, I knew I could"

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), May 25, 1999.

Linda and Chris: Polly to Wally, and Anna to Andy? Wallyandy?

I don't know, it just doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

-- Richard Dymond (rjdymond@x-stream.co.uk), May 26, 1999.