This time in Atlanta...CNN breaking. No one dead, several injured.

-- Sharon (sking@drought-ridden.com), May 20, 1999

Answers

Lawyers have been called ambulance chasers.

Now the politicians have become hearse chasers.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), May 20, 1999.

Starting the fall of 1999, We are teaching our children at home.

Bulldog

-- bulldog (sniffin@around.com), May 20, 1999.

Ken,

You're right on the money.

Bulldog,

My husband and I have been discussing this very issue. I have about a year before my son is school-aged but we decided we are not going to start him in the public schools. Between the loonies and the curriculum, they don't have a chance!

-- Sharon (sking@drought-ridden.com), May 20, 1999.

Im with you Sharon and Bulldog! My son is 3 and we are not sending him to public school either, I know this is off topic, but check out (if you haven't already Family Matters by David Guterson) It cinched it for us that home schooling with lots of community involvement is the way to go.

-- (y2kfallback@yahoo.com), May 20, 1999.

AMAZING!!!

Another school shooting.....just in time for his honor's visit to Littleton!!!

How convenient for him and his new anti-school violence agenda.

Can anyone say "Repealing the second ammendment"?

Americans will demand it.

What they refuse to recognize however, is that we as a nation are reaping what we've sown among the children of the "If It Feels Good - Do It, 60's Hippie generation". Selfishness. The root cause if you will.

We're getting just what we deserve. We've done it to ourselves.

But this is nothing....compared to what big harvest we will soon reap in the face of global turmoil and national decay due to our apathy.

This is just the beginning.

Wait until the real fur flies later this Summer.

Then you'll really have something to complain about.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 20, 1999.

Can't these kids come up with something more creative? I'm sick of this copycat crap. Not even worth watching anymore.

-- Bored with it (Disgusted@what'snew.com), May 20, 1999.

INVAR,

You are full of crap. I'm a child of the 60's and raised two kids that didn't kill anyone, and neither did any of their friends.

-- Bored with it (disgusted@What'snew.com), May 20, 1999.

I think today is exactly one month after Littleton, they mentioned on CNN?

Thank God school ends in a week.....................

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), May 20, 1999.

To conveniant with his vosit AND the laws penting in the Senate.

-- Rickjohn (rickjohn1@yahoo.com), May 20, 1999.

Hey Bored,

When exactly, and what generation was it that instituted abortion, free sex, live-ins, and divorce as "personal choices"? What demographic group had these cultural traits grow within it at exponential levels? What generational leaders demanded God be banned from school, but that students can study Satanism and Pagan Ritual and Myth as accredited courses?

What cultural traits have caused more harm to the nuclear family that used to make up the building blocks of our society?

...And I'm sure you're bored of hearing about this rant. Most of your generation does. Which is WHY we're in the cultural mess we are, and WHY there are such tragedies as Columbine among our children.

You people DON"T WANT TO HEAR THE TRUTH.

So instead, we'll all suffer for it. Putting band-aids on symptoms that smother the breaths of others' freedom and ignoring the root- causes of the problem.

Just because YOUR kids may have been raised with values and judgement, does not mean that a large segment of others in your generation did.

Otherwise, we would have no such tragedies as Columbine and now Conyers GA.

Our 60's generation sucks. We did this. Time to wake-up and face the reality of what we've done.

If not, we will perish.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 20, 1999.

The time has passed for playing the "blame game". Isolated "generations" of people came from previous generations of people. Demonizing/scapegoating solve no problems, in fact, they remain parts of the sequelae, contributors to the problems. Belief is not thought, never was, never will be. I call for all human beings to learn the difference between "inside" their heads, and "outside" their heads. This will go a long way farther toward solving social problems than the incessant and immature attribution of blame.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), May 20, 1999.

>>>Demonizing/scapegoating solve no problems, in fact, they remain parts of the sequelae, contributors to the problems."<<<<

Go tell that to Bill Clinton, James Carville and the Democratic Party...the leadership of our nation that turned demouguogery into a political art form.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 20, 1999.

One of the students interviewed said

They used to call it "going postal." Now they call it "going to school."

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

INVAR,

" The Greatest Generation ", my parents, brought us the atom bomb and MAD. Things aren't any better today.

What do you think the effect of growing up in that enviroment would be?

-- CT (ct@no.yr), May 20, 1999.

In the weeks since the killings at Columbine High School in Colorado, a lot of posters have taken the position that a return to prayer in schools would be a panacea that would eliminate such violence, improve the moral fabric of the country and -- who knows? -- perhaps even lower our national cholesterol level.

Not that this is anything new. Since the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school-led prayer violated the Constitution, the same crowd has blamed that decision for everything from the anti-war movement to the thong bikini.

I strongly suspect those people don't recall everything about the "good old days" when schools started the day with a prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. It may have escaped their memories that all the little white children prayed in their all-white schools while all the little black children prayed in their all-black schools. Where was the morality there?

Were our morals really better in those days, when hotels posted signs telling Jews and African-Americans to go elsewhere? I remember being chastised by a drug store manager once because I mistakenly drank out of the water fountain reserved for black people.

During those days of school prayer, it also was legal for a husband to rape his wife, a right he acquired by marrying her. The police and courts rarely became involved in "domestic disputes," most of which consisted of a man pounding on his wife or kids.

Perhaps the reason "the good old days" always seem so good is that we tend to forget a lot of the bad things. And the people who are most wistful are those who benefited from the inequities that existed.

Prayer in schools didn't elevate our national morality then any more than it will elevate it today. Prayer, like discipline, morality and just plain good manners should be taught at home, by parents. There is no way to have public school-sanctioned prayer without telling some kids that their beliefs are not as good as others.

When I was growing up and attending schools in South Florida, for example, the prayer of choice was the Lord's Prayer. Since I was being raised Catholic, I always tripped and got confused right at the end. Catholics ended after "deliver us from evil." But everyone else had another 10-12 words. So I can only imagine how kids from non-Christian or atheist families must have felt.

To tell the truth, prayers were kind of rote recitations for me and many other children in those days. In the early years of elementary school, I didn't understand words like "hallowed" and "trespasses." We said the prayers because someone told us to.

It wasn't prayer in school that kept me and most others from becoming criminals. It was the discipline, respect for others and morals we learned at home. For the most part, kids who have that kind of upbringing can watch any movie, listen to any recording and play any video game without becoming mass murderers.

So I'm rather amused at the persistence of the "bring back school prayer" crowd. After all, this is a country in which people are free to worship as they please. People can pray at home, at church, even in school, as long as they don't disturb others. We just aren't allowed to have organized, government-sanctioned prayers in school. Some people continue to react to that decision like a child who is told he can play anywhere but in the laundry room. Suddenly, playing in the laundry room becomes important. The concept those people can't seem to grasp is that for some of us, freedom of religion means freedom from religion.


-- Ray (none@none.none), May 20, 1999.

That's a cop-out CT.

You cannot blame the fear of fallout for the lack of outgoing concern and basic parenting skills that are now beginning to manifest themselves in the violent actions of kids today.

I won't waste the bandwidth needed to explain WHY MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) and the A-bomb saved millions of lives and our entire way of life....but suffice it to say that you need to get educated about history and WHY things you listed above were done. You will find that VALUES, PATRIOTISM and ETHICS had a lot to do with it.

It would garner much more respect and reverence for the values and ethics that the "Greatest Generation" held, that the Baby Boom Generation rejected in protest en masse.

We are simply starting to truly reap the benefits of 35 years of Socialistic Liberalism. It's end result will be the annihilation of our nation and the loss of millions of lives.

We will have done it to ourselves.

Look at the ROOT cause of the problem. Not the SYMPTOM of the problem.

Stop emoting and start THINKING.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 20, 1999.

I was a 60's hippie, minus the drugs. I stayed in school, but dropped out of the fantasy spin of the 50's generation. My girlfriend and I loved tie-dyed clothes, rock and roll, and doing our own thing, rather than climbing the "get ahead corporate ladder." Yes Invar, we were typical 60's hippies. We knew that Happy Days, and Leave It to Beaver were just TV shows, not reality in most families.

Against our parents wishes, one an attorney, the other middle management GM, we pooled our money, bought a few acres, raised a garden, goats, fruit trees, bees, had a successful vegetable stand in summer, planted more trees, did odd jobs and cut wood in winter, learned to bake bread, find water, grow sprouts, can and put food by, no electricity for three years, and became fairly self-sufficient, in spite of many mistakes. Got married when our first child was three years old, had another and decided that we should consider the earth and not have any more. Taught them both country skills, and they are fine people.

Heck, when we first heard about y2k we just looked at each other and laughed. Been there, done that. Yeah, we were really bad, we danced among the wildflowers and goats with our two little ones during the summer solstice. And you know what--both of them, make their own way, are happy and well adjusted, and neither worries about status, clothes, cars or getting rich. One, said to me about the shootings, "Dad, it's a shame they didn't grow up like us. They should have had more goats and bees and less guns and money."

In retrospect it appears to me the 80s "me first" time was a much worse time of greed and selfishness, than the 60's. I'm afraid we don't have all the answers, but something is wrong and it isn't guns and music, that's just the blame game.

Now we have a kins nurturing son

-- gale (guide@earthling.net), May 20, 1999.

Ray, there's nothing "immoral" about segregation. It happens naturally wherever human beings are free to chose their companions. Before you disagree, visit the cafeteria of any "integrated" school anywhere in the world: What you'll see is black kids sitting together at one table & white kids sitting at another table, purely by their own preference.

-- see (it@every.day), May 20, 1999.

I grew up during the 50s and 60s and went to Catholic schools that thumped religion and survived beatings by the Sisters of Saint Francis. I can still see that old bag Sister Camiona pounding a book on the head of Joey Boyd and yanking on his hair till he fell out of his seat. All in the name of religion.

Thank goodness my kids didn't have to put up with that!!!!! Religious brainwashing has come to an end in our family.

-- (Been there@donethat.com), May 20, 1999.

That's a cop-out CT.

You cannot blame the fear of fallout for the lack of outgoing concern and basic parenting skills that are now beginning to manifest themselves in the violent actions of kids today.

I won't waste the bandwidth needed to explain WHY MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) and the A-bomb saved millions of lives and our entire way of life....but suffice it to say that you need to get educated about history and WHY things you listed above were done. You will find that VALUES, PATRIOTISM and ETHICS had a lot to do with it

.

It would garner much more respect and reverence for the values and ethics that the "Greatest Generation" held, that the Baby Boom Generation rejected in protest en masse.

We are simply starting to truly reap the benefits of 35 years of Socialistic Liberalism. It's end result will be the annihilation of our nation and the loss of millions of lives.

We will have done it to ourselves.

Look at the ROOT cause of the problem. Not the SYMPTOM of the problem.

Stop emoting and start THINKING.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 20, 1999.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), May 20, 1999.

Oops. One more time &$@*&^% html

That's a cop-out CT.

You cannot blame the fear of fallout for the lack of outgoing concern and basic parenting skills that are now beginning to manifest themselves in the violent actions of kids today.

not sure I did, but it was partof the enviroment

I won't waste the bandwidth needed to explain WHY MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) and the A-bomb saved millions of lives and our entire way of life....but suffice it to say that you need to get educated about history and WHY things you listed above were done. You will find that VALUES, PATRIOTISM and ETHICS had a lot to do with it.

been there, done that. BTW, you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't say

It would garner much more respect and reverence for the values and ethics that the "Greatest Generation" held, that the Baby Boom Generation rejected in protest en masse.

I'll refer you to Ray's post, I couldn't top that

We are simply starting to truly reap the benefits of 35 years of Socialistic Liberalism. It's end result will be the annihilation of our nation and the loss of millions of lives.

We will have done it to ourselves.

I agree but would insert a maybe in there

Look at the ROOT cause of the problem. Not the SYMPTOM of the problem.

Stop emoting and start THINKING.

same to ya

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 20, 1999.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), May 20, 1999.

>>>Go tell that to Bill Clinton, James Carville and the Democratic Party...the leadership of our nation that turned demouguogery into a political art form. <<<

I mentioned demonizing/scapgoating in reference to your posts INVAR. I would not waste my time telling the same to politicians, as I view them as meaningless in my life. I have experienced "government" as synonymous with non-solutions, as a mindless myth-propagation machine thing. I do not accept the practice of following "leaders" as part of my existence, especially those I have never met, who are narcissistically attracted to occupations steeped in the concepts of "rule", and "power-over." The point I attempted to make above, albeit obliquely, was that blaming one abstract "group" (the 60s generation, as if such a thing exists as other than a granfalloon), of people for the present rash of school violence seems to me in the same ballpark as blaming little green men from the Planet Mongo for global warming. Your hypothesis that the so-called 60s generation is to blame is nothing more than a guess subject to further verification.

"It is always better to have no ideas than false ones; to believe nothing, than to believe what is wrong." Thomas Jefferson

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), May 20, 1999.

>>>VALUES, PATRIOTISM and ETHICS<<< (and capital letters no less)

Sounds like the ever-popular technique of pulling out the "holy words", INVAR...for times when one's argument falls short. Let me remember,...Timothy McVeigh, a patriot, a highly decorated veteran of the so-called Gulf War, yes? Young men at Columbine High School, Eric Harris, who so much wanted to be a US Marine, and then dressed in paramilitary garb for his military-like blitz assault on the people at the school. What VALUES, and ETHICS are you suggesting? Who's absolutes do you espose? I think we can leave PATRIOTISM out of the equation at this point, or do you disagree?

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), May 20, 1999.

Taking Christian prayer out of the schools has nothing to do with it. Schools still allow a 60 second period of silence for students to pray to God. If they can't do that without being led in "Our Father" by the teacher, then we are just brainwashing and have failed them anyway.

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

Prayer should be taught in the home, then the church. The problem is that too many parents are lazy and undisciplined and then blame it on the lack of prayer in school.

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

T.S. Eliot was once asked when we would know civilization had ended. He replied "when people start shooting other people randomly." Even Eliot, who authored a few bleak poems in his day, didn't think to say "children shooting children." I have one question, a sincere one: if it's not music, video games, movies, television, amorality, and relativistic nihilism, then what is it? Evil? Are we being confronted with evil?

-- Spidey (in@jam.commie), May 20, 1999.

Good question, Spidey. I think the things you cite may have application, but moreover, I think that we are seeing responses to what children are seeing every day. They are told they are loved and cared for and see no evidence of it. They are told to tell the truth, and they are daily lied to. They are told to love, and that others will love them, and see evidence to the contrary. The violence of teens in the hood that happens every day is now happening in the holy middle class enclaves.

The respected developmental psychologist, Jean Piaget, was once asked: "how do children learn?" He held up his hand extending three fingers, one at a time, and said, "Example, example, example."

In our world the icons of authority tell children to be peaceful, yet arm themselves to the teeth, praise might-makes-right philosophies,...they say: "We will decide what countries' exercises of authority are valid". Parents are STILL taught that the most valuable thing to learn about child-rearing is CONTROL. Why should children behave in any other way? Why should they not seek to grasp "power and control" in any way they can. Granted, MOST children somehow grow well despite all of this, but frankly, it surprises me that there is not more inter-child violence based on the examples set by all the adults "in the know, and in power." When military might is the most revered "power" on the planet, why shouldn't children form gangs (armies) in order to have power? Cooperation is not valued in the world,...conflict, control, and domination is. Gods' names are called upon to sanctify killing today 'as it was in the beginning.' It seems horrifyingly odd to me for so many people to appear to seek "other" explanations for violent children. When I was growing up there was a saying. I don't hear it much any more. It goes: "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree." Picture in your mind a societal icon standing up emotionally calling for legislation to stop teen violence, and in the next breath stating that the bombing of Kosovo is going well,... then ask yourself the question: "Why are teens violent?" Human beings must stop shutting off their minds with dogma, and begin to see, hear and act as if they are conscious.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), May 20, 1999.

CBS this week decided to pull its new series about NY mob violence from the Fall lineup because of the carnage at Collembine. Said the timing was bad. Hmmm.

We now have a generation of young adults that have been steeped in violence and bad morals since birth, thanks to the media. Hey -- It's what Nielson's said their parents wanted to see. And their parents were too self consumed to give a shit about controlling what their kids took in. Kids can't be influenced by TV, they said. Just ask the folks on Madison Avenue and in the big three's marketing departments.

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

Spidey,

I believe the answer is yes. After you dig beneath the rhetoric of "why?why?" and "who is to blame?", it all boils down to the fact that some people choose evil. I read an excellent article on this topic today at www.jewishworldreview.com/dr/laura.html

snip

"As contradictory as it is to our desire to believe that people are inherently good unless some force makes them different (note the rationale that the teen gunmen perpetrated their horror because they were "picked on"), the truth is that some people simply choose evil. And the more that people, especially impressionable children, are surrounded by evil, the more influenced, tempted, seduced and intrigued by evil they become. In other words, the more familiar evil becomes, the more it seems a legitimate outlet.

It is unarguable that evil has tremendous power, and from theat power comes the allure. Evil delivers immediate gratification. Evil provides a sense of power, dominance, importance, control and security. Evil is a strong identity."

end snip

I also believe that perpetrators of crimes should be held personally responsible for their acts. As a parent, it is my responsibility to teach my children personal responsibility and to shield them as much as possible from being bombarded by evil. Of course, this is just MHO. (Don't flame me because I forgot to ask Andy to borrow his flame-resistant suit ;-) )

-- Sharon (sking@drought-ridden.com), May 20, 1999.

Spidey, I forgot to address the last of your list,...is it evil? For the last month I've done more than a little thinking and writing on the subject of teen violence,...here, some of it on evil:

"Boys from media-defined affluent families arm themselves, and kill other teens, a teacher and themselves. After, broadcasts and newspapers are full up with other thwarted plots by other teens, children. The politicos at left, right and center remain in their clueless stasis. Repeating the same worn-out analyses. Failure of morality, religion, discipline, families,... The elephant remains in the room, smelled, felt, heard, but undiscovered. Evil boys, bad seed. It MUST be that they were BAD, born bad, the old lament. "Gee Officer Krupky - Krup You!"

"The Jungian doctrine of the shadow, and the notion that evil is the reverse of good, are aimed at denying the reality of evil. But evil is real. It is not innate but acquired, and it is never he reverse of good, but rather its destroyer,...It is not true that evil, destructiveness, and perversion inevitably form part of human existence, no matter how often this is maintained. But it is true that evil is always engaged in producing more evil, and with it, an ocean of suffering for millions that is similarly avoidable. When one day ignorance arising from childhood repression is eliminated and humanity is awakened, an end can be put to this production of evil." Alice Miller, "Banished Knowledge"

I think none of us see most of the suffering that comes from the evil of throwing children away; most of it does not resemble what happened at Columbine High School. No, the evil is in the perpetuation of more adults who will throw away more children, more adults who will lie-to, abuse, and manipulate more children, who will grow to, not only, do more of the same, but who will vote for politicians who will promote more bombing for peace, more capital punishments, and all the other violences, called normal, that so-called modern human beings pretend is healthy.

More than 20 years ago I gave birth to and loved two humans, one male, one female. As adults they now adhere to very unmodern worldviews. They believe that the prime human directives are to love, create and do no harm. They warm me. As they grew I heard that other parents struggled with their own children. This baffled me for I felt no struggle. I didn't do everything well. I worried about how to counter-balance or oppose the world outside our home. I labored to correct my own flawed learning from childhood. I would do it again in very much the same way. My children were not my possessions to be controlled, broken. They were then, (and now), living, thinking beings who happened to be entrusted to me. It was my duty to nurture, protect and teach them as best I could, and then to hug them on their own ways.

Columbine High School, or more accurately the responses to Columbine High School disturb my sleep every night. I see connections from it to all the violence that wracks my lovely Planet Earth, this big blue marble in the sky. I want so much to share all this, that which dances inside me with all the puzzled and confused people who ask not only why, but what do we do now? So I sit on the patio as the sun shines brighter through the morning haze. I write."

I recommend an excellent book on the subject of human evil. "The People Of The Lie", by M. Scott Peck. Also of particular interest to the subject of teen violence read anything by Alice Miller; "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware", "For Your Own Good", "Banished Knowledge".

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), May 20, 1999.

Donna,

One thing you left out. Today the kids in school are taught, by the teachers, that if their parents raise their voice or spank their butt, it is child abuse. They are taught to call the police or family services and report the abuse. Then the child puts 2+2 together and threatens their parents with this knowlege when they don't get their way, been there, done that. Parents have no control of their kids because Big Brother has put the power in the childs hands.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), May 20, 1999.

Uhhhh, correct me if I'm wrong (I know you all will) but aren't the same voices who are blaming the 60s generation for all of the world's troubles the same voices who are crying out that the "parents" are to blame for the behavior of the kids today?

So, doesn't that then mean the parents of the 60s generation are to blame for everything wrong with society today?

INVAR

As the single most emotional voice on the forum, take your own advice:

"Stop emoting and start THINKING."

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 20, 1999.

Bill's in Littleton. Gun-control bills are in the Senate. Mind-controlled, Manchurian Candidate children are performing on schedule.

Anyone who can't see through all this is willfully blind.

-- . (.@...), May 20, 1999.

>>>>>One thing you left out. Today the kids in school are taught, by the teachers, that if their parents raise their voice or spank their butt, it is child abuse. They are taught to call the police or family services and report the abuse. Then the child puts 2+2 together and threatens their parents with this knowlege when they don't get their way, been there, done that. Parents have no control of their kids because Big Brother has put the power in the childs hands. <<<<<<

It appears you have missed my point. CONTROL of children is NOT the healthy nurturing of children. Spanking is about control, and about violence. Big Brother cares not for children, nor for adult slaves under his eye. Child abuse laws miss the mark, as most laws do. Legislation equals reaction, not proaction. Legislation teaches nothing except power and control, more of the same old thing. Thinking is not what they tell you it is in most schools and churches....Go back, CT...read again. Then pick up M. Scott Peck's "The People Of The Lie", and ANY book by Alice Miller. Do a web search on freethought. Human beings can learn until they die...it is my goal to keep on learning....

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), May 20, 1999.

Donna, thanks for your post, I agree that too many parents are into control instead of love and nurture. I'm afraid I sometimes got on that train of child rearing too, and I regret it. My own son is a much better parent than I was, and he too believes, first, do no harm.

I remember reading Johnny Got His Gun years ago by ??Trumbo. It changed how I thought about violence. More recently I read Escape From Evil by Ernest Becker. Becker said he "fought against admitting the dark side of human nature for a dozen years," but was finally forced to admit the reality of evil. It's a very good book, published after his death.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 20, 1999.

I know I'm gunna draw some fire for this but I got flame proof jammies.

I only remember a few " spankings ", all but 1 was a " switching ", the switchings were few and far between and all before I was 6, maybe 3 or 4 total. The last was with a belt when I was 16, by my mom, who was half my weight and a foot shorter. It didn't hurt ( cept my feelers ) and I had it comeing, I got to big for my britches and mom took me down a peg.

Years later I had a 4 year old monster dumped on me that was totaly out of control. This poor child wet and craped the bed, screeming temper tantrums, and was very distructive and violent. After 3 days I couldn't take it any more. For the next 3 days, I taught him the leason of the switch and limits ( you might call that control ) After he found out I couldn't be bullyed or distracted, he tried nice, he tried keeping within the limits. It worked, 2 rough weeks and you wouldn't have known the kid. He was my shadow, all he wanted was for someone to care, someone to pay attention. The next 2 months were fun. I finnaly found his mother in a drunk tank 200 mi. away ( I should say, she found me ) He turned out ok. He turned into a friend, and stayed with me a few other times, he's almost 30 now.

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

That doesn't mean you beat them to death, it has nothing to do with your idea of " control ".It's about setting limits and enforceing them. It has nothing to do with violence, ( see, I can't even spell it ).

Schools teach that the child is in control, Johnny can't read, but he can't be failed, it might hurt his self respect. Johnny don't even to try, what's the point? His parents are just the support system, what can they do? Johnny is in control. You can't touch him, he'll call the cops.

Donna, it is about control. The question is, who is in control?

-- CT (ct@no.yr), May 20, 1999.

CT, your post is full of jingoism and dogma. You may be okay, but you fail to mention that you are so DESPITE the corporal punishment you received. Control indeed,...the bane of the world. I have no intent to convince you of anything. You will continue to believe what you believe. I would suggest to you to imagine a child, any anonymous child that might grow without the threat of control and punishment. Imagine without preset dogmas, and mindsets. Imagine a child growing with encouragement and nurture. That would not be a child that picks up a gun and shoots others...

Push yourself to think outside the box of the institutionalized abuse of human beings, children, adults,...imagine that it's possible. I'm glad you managed to thrive despite your early experiences.

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), May 20, 1999.

Great post, Donna. A keeper. So moving, to read of your lucid journey with your now adult children.

Can't remember where this came from -

Children Learn What They Live

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn.
If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight.
If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy.
If a child lives with shame, he learns to feel guilty.
If a child lives with tolerance, he learns to be patient.
If a child lives with encouragement, he learns confidence.
If a child lives with praise, he learns to appreciate.
If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice.
If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith.
If a child lives with approval, he learns to like himself.
If a child lives with acceptance and friendship, he learns to find love in the world.

Donna, you said, "CONTROL of children is NOT the healthy nurturing of children. Spanking is about control, and about violence. Big Brother cares not for children, nor for adult slaves under his eye. " ...

And you can be sure this will yank the chains of the liberal-bashing, 60s-generation-haters, who are satisfied to blame "permissive" Spockian child-raising and a "wimpy moral relativism" for Columbine and for practically all other U.S. ills around. Kernel of truth about the 60s I guess...Child-centeredness does NOT work, but not why we think it doesn't. Now the pendulum swings, but we need a third way. Or are we just going to do the reactionary knee-jerk thing where once again "the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons from generation unto generation"?

"Child abuse laws miss the mark, as most laws do. Legislation equals reaction, not proaction. Legislation teaches nothing except power and control, more of the same old thing.

Yes!!! Your point is a subtle one. But crucial. "CONTROL the child or be CONTROLLED" is adversarial, a false dichotomy - the issue is framed all wrong. CT, the child abuse laws are doing the flip-flop in the false dichotomy, and the child knows it's false and though he may not know why, he plays it for all it's worth. Kids are unbelievably quick to find holes in stupid adult things. Not out of malice. They can't resist. Then we fail the test, because we don't understand the issues any better than the child does! Notch one up for alienation... and so it goes.

CT, children do crave limits. Bad word! - At its best, it means something like "something/someone strong to lean on, or push against, so I can do my job of growing up" [fishing for definition]; it has nothing to do with punishment. You did meet the needs of that unruly child, at least more than anyone else ever had, apparently. Despite the punishment, you had regard for his humanity. But even that isn't it.

Try this...

Who 's in Control? (by Jean Liedloff)
http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

It's not what it sounds like.

I too recommend Alice Miller (have read all her books), as well as anything by Jean Liedloff. As Andy would say, "Read and digest." We desperately need to re-define the issues, before we can hope to get anywhere with solutions.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 20, 1999.

I remember at least half a dozen times getting the hell beat out of me with a belt. And that was just last week. No seriously, I deserved it. And look at me now -- none the worse for the wear. :)

The shooter in Atlanta was a church going boy scout. The kids in Columbine were spolied. One drove a BMW.

Gotta think of a better theory guys...

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

OK,

Talk nice to them and let them be the boss. When they pull a knife on you, reason with them, after all, you wouldn't want to hurt their feelings. They are tender little amimals, till you tame them.

Get real, you neo-social do gooders are the problem. You have to instill a humanistic outlook in the unprogramed animal, or it will eat you alive. The animal has to be taught to be social. The animal will always move for it's own advantage. You don't have to stiffle it, but you better control it, or it will go to school. Look around you, they don't see you as a person, now

-- CT (ct@no.yr), May 21, 1999.

I've struggled with the discipline/nurture and control/or be controlled issue for years. I'm now in the unique position of agreeing with both sides of this argument.

On one hand I think beating with a belt is brutal and barbaric, and teaches a child nothing, but on the other hand, I think an occasional switching, or slap on the rear is called for. The funny thing for me, when I look back at my mother who was a firm believer in switching, is that I was never switched unless I'd done something I felt was genuinely wrong. So therefore I don't have any resentment about the switchings.

But what I do resent, after all these years, is the hateful and hurtful things she said to me. Most of this had to do with her very church oriented (Southern Baptist) upbringing about morality. I began to notice that after a revival I was usually on trial for a month or so afterward. It all had to do with "being born in sin and my sinful, rebellious nature." Frankly I didn't think I was sinning then or now. I refused to "be saved" and join the church during the revivals, and this caused me quite a lot of misery, for according to her, I had "rejected Jesus, who died for my sins" as my savior. When I said I didn't feel I was born a sinner, and I didn't ask anyone to die for me, I was verbally beaten, harangued and prayed over, for my willful and sinful rejection of God's love. Fianlly my dad got tired of it and said, "You don't have to do anything you don't feel right about." You cannot imagine how relieved I was, but it didn't keep her from voicing her opinion that I was "the devil's own" and had "mocked God."

So IMHO I feel that discipline in itself is not bad unless a child feels it is totally unfair. When I skipped my piano lesson, spent the money on a hot fudge sundae and comic book, then lied about it, I did not resent the switching. But I resented being told I was a sinner, when I didn't feel I had sinned.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 21, 1999.

[Talk nice to them and let them be the boss. When they pull a knife on you, reason with them, after all, you wouldn't want to hurt their feelings.]

Adults should NOT let kids walk all over them. Obviously I did not get my point across, you didn't read; or whatever....

If you ended up being good friends with this kid, something went right. I wasn't there so I'll reserve judgment. Punishment or spanking is a red herring anyway; I shouldn't have focused on it. The most hurtful thing in punishment is the abandonment (agree with this Gilda). If it's fair, the child knows because they have a moral sense. (My memory is that as a child I had a moral sense, which wasn't beaten into me.)

There was a point here somewhere ... awareness goes a long way to eliminate the blame game in which everyone is endless cycles of victims and victimizers. It's a bit of an abstraction I know, but there it is... 'Nuff said.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 21, 1999.

I had made a promise never to respond to another post by you, Gilda, but after reading your sad tale, I cannot resist. In all sincerity: has it occurred to you that your mother was insane? What a wretch she must have been, beating you and calling you a sinner. How utterly nightmarish. I apologize for calling you a witch. I hope you have a good weekend: enjoy the May sunshine.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), May 21, 1999.

Yadda...yadda...yadda...

People certainly do LOVE to write long speeches about teen violence.

No question -- The shooters were aiming at the wrong targets.

-- yak (yak@yak.yak), May 21, 1999.

Spidey, I'm touched. I appreciate your kind words. But...my mother really wasn't insane; that is not a defense, just a fact. I don't want to make it worse than it was. She seldom switched me, and when she did, it was for something I truly felt was wrong, like skipping the piano lesson and lying about it.

And when she was hounding me about religion, she never switched me at all, she just called me names, and made me feel stubborn, mean and guilty. Once the after effects of the revival were past, things went back to normal, and everything was fine until the next revival.

Here is an interesting aside. I was allowed to read anything at all; no restrictions as long as it was considered "literature" as opposed to trash reading; the Decameron, Tobacco Road, God's Little Acre, The Grapes of Wrath, etc., In that way she was a very democratic person and allowed me quite a bit of freedom, concerning movies, friends and pets.

My point was that I think children don't mind being punished or spanked, as long as parents are fair. But children keenly resent what they see as coercion, browbeating or just plain unfairness. One thing I would never have dared, nor did I want to, was to tease or make fun of another person. I think parents are lax about teaching children to be considerate and not ridicule others, and it is so important.

Thanks Spidey.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), May 21, 1999.