Ok, I'll admit it. Gary North was the reason I started paying attention to y2k. And, I'll also admit that I've done my own fair share of preparation. That said, I've been becoming increasingly sceptical of Gary as of late...more "gut feeling" than anything else.

He has a post on his site today entitled "no one will listen when you shout fire". It was submitted by "a programmer who wishes to remain anonymous". It's a quaint story about a husband and wife at a rural wedding. But, something about the story sounded vaguely familiar to me. I searched through his archives until I found another article from 04/12/99 entitled "shouting fire in a crowded ice rink". Guess what? Some story, word for word.

What's my point? My point is that we've all been getting information...and misinformation from every source we depend on to help us make our decisions! There are no truths here!

Will I stop preparing? No. Do I trust any one source of information? No.

Comments?

-- dan (dbuchner@logistics.calibersys.com), May 20, 1999

Answers

Can't you guys do a better job of Trolling? Please take MORE time to hone your skills.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), May 20, 1999.

Hello,

I don't know Gary, can't speak for him but my guess is that he strives to keep posts informative for newbies to this issue. If that means recycling an occasional post, so be it.

Bye!

-- Kristi (securx@Succeed.Net), May 20, 1999.

Dan, I was once a Northaholic and absolutely had to go to his site each day to see what he posted. Sometimes each morning I would see what was under his christmas tree. I stopped almost altogether going there after realizing what his intentions were and read a historical bit on him. The straight and narrow pointedness of his "10" became a little too much and I needed answers, "REAL" answers. That is why I have many bookmarks of many people who can be another added ball to the Y2k juggling act. Ed Yardini, Chief economist at Deutsche Bank securities, is a grounding source to follow. You need an adobe acrobat reader to be able to read his Y2K Reporter. My father, whom is a DWGI, gave the bookmark to me. I figured that it must be somewhat reliable if not fully. It seems alot of other religious "NUTS" are involved in Y2K besides North, so look out for them. The straight and narrow path just doesn't seem to have a healthy chronicler's or journalist's feel to it. It seems the programmers have more to offer. The non-religious fanatics that is. I am not anti-religion, just Anti-Nut.

Sincerely , Feller

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), May 20, 1999.

OK, yeah, it's a familiar story, but it's a chilling one because it rings true. People DO ignore fire alarms.

I worked at a high-power law firm a few years back. When the alarm sounded, all the clerks, secretaries, & other maintenance folk dutifully walked down four flights of steps as we were required to do. But the lawyers, most of them, never budged from their padded leather chairs.

Too bad it wasn't a real fire....

-- heading (for@the.exits), May 20, 1999.

If Gary North announced that water ran downhill, I'd walk to the faucet and check for myself.

North has been a "10" since the early 80s, but for reasons other than Y2K. He supports the overthrow of our Constitutional Republic and the installment of an Old Testament theocratic regime. Do an Internet search on Christian Reconstructionism if you want to learn more about his theology. The good news, Mr. North is a prolific writer and his opinions are widely available. You'll can quickly and easily make your own determination based on own reading of his work.

Unlike North, I do not think citizenship ought to be reserved for "true believers" nor do I think we ought to bring back "stoning."

But read and decide for yourself if North has an "agenda."

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 20, 1999.

I have never been a follower of Gary North, however, I do appreciate his site. It was because of all his writings that I woke up to the fact that time is growing short and I needed to be prepared. He does post some interesting items and I check in 2-3 times a week just to see what is there. However, I try to keep things in perspective, as I do even with this discussion forum. I enjoy reading most of the posts, but pick through for what I can really use. (Thanks Ol' Git for all the really valuable information!)

-- winna (??@??.com), May 20, 1999.

Right Mr. Decker, North has this Theological agenda and he does write extremely well. Born in 1942, Year of the water horse and Saturn in Gimini. Very intellectual, Astrologically speaking. He gives links to most of his posts that are objective. His Opinion or Comment is also included. It is the use of the intellect that undermines those who can reason with similiar brain power. That is why he has a following. Some of the people with the highest I.Q.'s are some of the biggest lunatics. What you do know can hurt you in some cases. Too much information can lead to some rather interesting assumptions.

Sincerly, Feller

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), May 20, 1999.

Mr. Decker. What constitutional republic?

MJ

-- mj (workshy@eagledesign.com), May 20, 1999.

Lest we be too hasty in our judgements, yes, Gary North has been extremely sceptical about the long range viability of our present culture. I would suspect that both the GI and the DGI populations may share more than some of that scepticism. Recently, for his FIRESTORM CHAT subscribers, he pointed out that for years he had predicted major inflation, but in light of current events (and the limited ability of the Mint to print greenbacks)he had been WRONG, and was now correcting himself. Do not confuse prophesy with a major wake-up call about a systemic problem which, as of this date, remains fraught with confusion, disinformation and outright lying. When I first read North's Y2K concerns I felt he was a bit off the edge; further research convinced me that he could be correct, enough so that I made location, lifestyle and investment decisions accordingly. At some point, we all have to decide what our convictions are and whether or not we have the courage to follow them. North has- have you?

-- Paul J. Urquhart III (paulUrquhart@worldnet.att.net), May 20, 1999.

I have known of Gary North since 1972. The World/Stock market/etc is always going to go tits up. However, I think this time he is closer to the truth than he has ever been. Not because he is smarter now, just that he might have chosen the right reasons this time. Your biggest survival tool is your own brain. Use it or lose it. Don't bank on ANYONE having all the facts. You MUST sift though the material and sort the chaff from the wheat on your own. NO ONE can do this for you. And if you don't do it and y2k causes you and your family grief, then its you who is responsible. Your failure to prepare today does not constitute an emergency for me later.

-- Taz (Tassie @aol.com), May 20, 1999.

There is no doubt that Gary North has his own agenda. But that does absolutely NOTHING do diminish the evidence that he presents, nor his recent track record on Y2K. For instance, he clamored last year that the December 31, 1998 deadline that was being claimed for Y2K compliance by Fortune 500 companies would be missed -- and boy was he right. He is now claiming that the June 30 deadline will largely be missed -- and my money is on North!

Of course, when it comes to "hidden agendas", no one comes even close to our cleverist troll, whom we know only as "Mr. Decker"....

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

Well, this just demonstrates that Gary North has his foibles. The important thing is to weigh what he says, read his linked documents, and as in a civil trial, decide if he is correct based on the preponderance of evidence.

It's nearly impossible to PROVE most positions. Absolute proof is a pretty high bar to jump. It is much easier to decide which position is more reasonable based on the weight of evidence, and go with that. Based on the tons of supporting evidence North provides, and the weakness of the arguments against him, I think he is probably closer to the truth than anyone else.

So what if his theological views may seem weird to us? It doesn't necessarily follow that his arguments about y2k are false. Of course, North's views might be a little red flag to us, encouraging us to very carefully examine his arguments. But if his arguments are true, they're true, and what he thinks about anything else is irrelevant.

-- DMH (aint@tellin.com), May 20, 1999.

Good point, Juan Carlos.

-- DMH (aint@tellin.com), May 20, 1999.

Gary North has been wrong on several things over the years. I think that we can agree he got this one right, and it is only a matter of to what degree. What is discomforting is the fact that he has openly expressed his desire for a the collapse of the banking system, re: "It is something I have hoped for my entire life". When I express an opinion, I would hope that at the core is a good intention. When bad times come to pass I will not be rubbing my hands together with glee. Will he?

-- Gia (Laureltree7@hotmail.com), May 20, 1999.

Now come on people, Everybody has an agenda. Some will not admit it.

AS for me, I hope Y2K removes a lot of money around from the have to the have nots. I also hope it breaks a lot of crooks, bankers and those that take advantage just because peoples have needs, And needs should not make one rich at anothers expense just because they can.

We need to see who the sheep and the goats are!

Lon

-- Lon (Lon1937@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

I'm on the opposite end of the religious spectrum from North. (I'm a born again atheist -- born atheist, indocrinated into religion, then got smart.) But even religious wackos can be right sometimes. Yes, North has been forecasting doom since the 1970s, but this time I think he could be right.

As far as the banking system -- I too hope it collapses. Most of you don't realize how tightly Big Govt has got you by the short hairs with this dishonest, corrupt money, credit, and banking system.

-- A (A@AisA.com), May 20, 1999.

The first post proves exactly what Gary North believes. How can someone defend a post that he "MADE UP." Its fiction, and he passes it off as fact. Gary North has been yelling fire for so long that even his own followers have doubted him.

I pray that Mr. North is wrong once again. His use of the Christian faith as a way to justify his hatred of just about anyone that doesn't agree with him 100% makes him no different than a David Koresh. And if Gary Norths track record is a indicator of how accurate his prediction on Y2K are, then I think he will be latching onto May 5th, 2000 as the next sure fire End of the World Remnant Review 2 year subscription seller.

-- Pat (BAMECW@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

When Gary North comes up, I think of the Inquisition. When you are convinced God supports your ENDS, you can justify nearly any MEANS. I'll wager if someone emailed North an "anonymous" Y2K catastrophe waiting to happen story... he'd use it in a second. And if the original post on this thread is correct, he'll recycle a few times for good measure. Y2K is a nonissue for North. His real interest is in establishing a new government guided by his interpretation of Old Testament law. After Y2K passes, he'll find another reason the world will end... just like he has for two decades. And he'll use it to sell the Remnant Review (two year subscriptions, of course.)

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 20, 1999.

Pat: Screw you and the horse you rode in on. North merely reposted the same story. How does that translate to a fabrication?

In the first story, 4/12/99, he says "I received this today"

http://garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/4385

In the second, 5/18/99, he says "This, from a programmer who wishes to remain anonymous"

http://garynorth.com/y2k/detail_.cfm/4737

Explain why this deserves its own thread, much less contempt from someone as idiotic as yourself.

Decker: Screw you and the horse you rode in on. This is America and people can believe what they want to believe. I don't adhere to Norths religious views, I don't even go to church. But to attack his brand of Christianity as a way of diminishing his y2k message is sickening.

Both of you, and dan, should be ashamed of yourselves.

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

North is preaching sedition. He has his First Amendment rights (as do I and my horse.) I'll let the authorities decide when and if he crosses the line. But spare me the "Christianity" lecture. The last time I checked, the Bible had a New Testament. Apparently Mr. North missed it. You know, the one where we are to love God and love our neighbors.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), May 20, 1999.

So A, Gary North is allowed to lie? Not to Christian from my perspective.

Gary North did NOT receive it from a programmer. He did not RECEIVE it from a inside source. Gary North LIED. He is now making up stories that sound good to further his cause.

Im not riding in on some high horse. Gary posted a story that is not true, and he posted it because it sounded good. It proves that he does not live by fact, or care for it. If he is lieing about receiving specific info from a programmer, how could you ever believe anything else he has said.

-- Pat (BAMECW@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

As far a "loving ones neighbors" is concerned, I have heard it explained, and explained convincingly, that it only applies to those who share your Christian convictions. As far as loving God, any true Christian does that.

Before someone starts spouting about how we're supposed to love everyone, here's a few scriptures you might find interesting:

Psalms 5:4-6, God HATES workers of iniquity.

Psalms 101:3, If you love God, HATE evil people.

Psalms 139:21-23, we are to HATE them the HATE the Lord.

Proverbs 6:16-19, six things God HATES.

God is a God of hate as well as love. I have more examples if anyone needs further convincing. As far as Mr. North is concerned: while his desire to reinstate Christianity to its proper and prominent place in our country is admirable, alarmist missives serve no purpose but to lessen credibility. Even Y2K at a "10" will not turn this country back to rightousness unless the people turn their hearts back to God.

-- J.T. (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

Pat, help me out here dear.

Specifically what did he lie about, and how is it that you arrived at this conclusion? If you have proof, I will be the first to say HE IS A LIAR.

Secondly, as has been debated on this forum ad nauseum, North posts links to his reports. If you want to doubt the links, most of which come from official sources, that's up to you.

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

Even if GN missed the New Testament (someday, if somebody asks nicely, I will explain how the two Testaments got to have their names, for those you who do not know) there is, of course, just this little gem from the Old Testament:

"Thou shalt not bear false witness"

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 20, 1999.

"whats up with North?"

you actually have to ask? Not only has he been CONSISTANTLY wrong...he has NEVER been right...

About North

"Gary North needs to be spanked. He is an alarmist, apocalyptic goon..."

And he is a LIAR.

LIAR

A seditious, grifting, LIAR. Period.

-- Mutha Nachu (---@coacoapodseeds.com), May 20, 1999.

testament means "covenant"

-- (no@one.important), May 20, 1999.

Yes, it does, but that is not how they got their names.

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 20, 1999.

ok tell us. the suspense is killing me.

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

OK, I will, but normally I wait until folks are writhing on the ground, and gnashing their teeth.

Testament comes from an old root word.

Once upon a time, a witness in a legal proceeding was known as a Testis and what he did was to Testify.

Today we swear on the Bible, but in days of old, when times were rotten, men who were sworn to tell the truth did so by swearing upon something that meant a lot to them. Something very, very important.

Consider the following Bible quote, and figure out for yourselves what the root word is for Testament, if you have not already.

When the time drew near for Israel to die, he called for his son Joseph and said to him, If I have found favor in your eyes, put your hand *under my thigh* and promise that you will show me kindness and faithfulnessSwear to me, he said. Then Joseph swore to him, and Israel worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.  Gen 47:29, 31

Under my thigh? While standing? Hmmmmm.

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 20, 1999.

Interesting. That book is one hell of a wild ride. I like the story of Lot sleeping with his daughters. Ah, I mean I find it interesting, that is...

-- a (a@a.a), May 20, 1999.

Jeez,

Gary North seems to be the lightning rod for red herrings, if I may grossly abuse my metaphors.

He has done a tremendous job of acquiring information on Y2K for a long time. If you don't like his commentary about it, fine, it's clearly commentary. If you want some quick links to interesting sources, it's there too.

Gary North is not going to cause the collapse of the banking system or any other Y2K phenomenon. You can agree with all his conclusions, some, or none. He's always interesting and that's more than you can say about most people.

-- Doug (douglasjohnson@prodigy.net), May 20, 1999.

A he wrote on May 19th that the letter was sent to him from a programmer. This is what he wrote:

"This, from a programmer who wishes to remain anonymous."

But he he posted this allready on April 12th, the same exact story. But never a mention at all about a programmer. If this isn't stretching the truth, then I don't know what is.

-- Pat (BAMECW@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

Some of you have such a hang-up about religion that you are missing the true value in Gary North's so-called "agenda". The man is hoping for the World to CHANGE. Is that such a terrible thing? I do not consider myself religous at all, but I'll tell you one thing... in a world that is destroying itself at an ever-accelerating pace, I would welcome any change, religous or not, and I hope it happens SOON, or it will be too late. I don't think you have the right to mock anyone's religion since this religion of politics which we now depend on has brought us to the brink of destruction. If you don't have any better suggestions, I think you should at least allow Gary the space to have his dream. After all, he isn't forcing anything upon anyone, and if you don't like what he suggests, just tune out.

-- @ (@@@.@), May 20, 1999.

Any world that Gary North would fine suitable and perfect is definately not one for me, and countless others that do not share his beliefs. Gary North does not have love for anyone but whoever agrees with him. And a play on words of Paul Milne:

"If your not a Protestant, your stoned."

-- Pat (BAMECW@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

@

I've said it before that if Y2K turns out really bad, GN will have saved my life and I, in that case, am willing to kiss his ass on the steps of city hall. Having said that, should things get bad, and GN tries to institute his form of "government" upon the US, I would fight him to the death.

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), May 20, 1999.

My goodness, nothing like having the infamous Gary North in the title of a thread to really bring out the trolls!!! Even Mutha -- I thought (hoped) that perhaps you had gone on to a better place....

Must say, though, probably for the first time, I actually agree with Decker on something: If Y2K turns out to be a big nothing, indeed you can bet that Scary Gary will still be hammering away, predicting the end of the world (well, the banking system, anyway) for whatever reason he can find.

But, like it or not folks, Gary North is absolutely on target with Y2K. And there is nothing that you can do about that -- his www.garynorth.com is a well documented collection of evidence that cannot be dismissed because of the background of who assembled it.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

Pat

Your evidence for discrediting everything GN both stands for and reports is really pretty flimsy. As in, BFD even if true. It misses the substance of the issue and is extremely petty. Gosh, if I found Koskinen quoting somebody without attributes, that would prove that Y2K will kill us all, right?

Just give it a rest, and get back to something worth discussing.

-- Doug (douglasjohnson@prodigy.net), May 20, 1999.

I have read farther down on the subject of "Gary North" and what he post, and how people receive or reject him or his writings as his religon and writings are the same.

People do you see why we are in such a predictment that we are in?

As far as I am concerned I on January 16, 1967 I came face to face with God. Since then I have turned around and headed in the other direction. All of us are on dangerous ground dicussing somebodys intentions or motives. I remember when Moses's own kin spoke out against him and paid an immediate price. Except for the love of Moses for things would not have changed.

That I hope will not hurt you, and probably will not help you too much. I take living a serious business. I am free from what is said against me or any praises. I like to live free. I will not without proof or with proof defame another person. It is not to be so to live in freedom as a free person in God. He is my judge, and judge of others also. He is big enough to take care of things himself without my help. I am too busy asking for wisdom and mercy to keep me on the right track in my life and help perserve all the wonderful things I love in this life.

This I will say with all the power that I can say, every word is written down on the wind and will one day return. Every act will be recorded by the natures scribes and we all will face them again one day. The day is now just beginning when those that did not choose well before coming down here, Those that have not sought to learn to know the meaning of life here will have to choose again. Look at all the different post and tell me why such dis-agreement are over such a small matter. To answer the question, Everbody want to have his or her way regardless of the cost. Look at nature, Even such things do not fight or disagree but will grow as it is their nature to do so. Have you ever seen a fence post sprout green branches. Even they will answer to The God Of the universe.

Have you ever even thought that you have been unwisely taught something that is not so? I say that many of you have. Otherwise all minds and hearts would seek freedom above all things, and seek not to degrade or or accept one ideas or words. But with all effort seek to understand why it should effect you,

We tread on dangerous ground speaking of others in any way. I say be careful, very careful.

You have heard this saying before, BUT I know him and he knows me and we talk face to face.

Yes people take this and file it away, for it is my and his words. Judgement has begun for the whole world to be judged for their ways.

For he has looked upon the highest mountains and into the lowest valleys, And under every rock and in every dwelling to find reason judgement should e witheld and have found none.

Do you not even know that wisdom is witheld from the kings and queens, The generals and the bowmen, scribes and builders that none will know until the fullfillment that will bring all in palaces and thatched roofs to know that the writing on the wall canno;t be interpeted except by his servants. As it was when Daniel fainted because of the many beast, so shall we faint at the awsomeness that Y2K will bring along with it. It is said, It is sure. As for me and my people we will be free as intended from the beginning of time.

Lon

-- Lon (Lon1937@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

what fuck kind of babbaling bullshit is that?????

GN sucks

-- ??????? (????@??.????), May 21, 1999.

This all sounds like a lot of "shooting the messenger". Why the concern for who is presenting the information or what his past record of prognostications has been? Gary presents the information, links to the source, and gives his commentary. The reader can review the source and make his own decision as to whether the logic appears sound. (No one knows what the final outcome will be. If the Gartner Group is correct and the problems occur over an extended period things may not end up in the same heap that they would if all problems occurred at the same time.) Time will tell, GN is doing a valuable service alerting the world to the possible problems. Our government and industry sources certainly are not doing the job of alerting the public. problems.

-- Rick (vrevans@bigfoot.com), May 21, 1999.

Tee hee! Isn't this fun?

I especially love watching Pat and Mutha Nachu coming unglued! Pat seems so full of anger. (I think the meds are wearing off.) It sure is fun to watch people push their buttons.

Pat, what wonderful diction, grammar, and spelling! Such unrivaled clarity of thought!

Mutha Nachu, your command of HTML is impressive. Too bad you can't construct an argument or adduce five cents worth of evidence.

-- DMH (aint@tellin.com), May 21, 1999.

DMH. What kind of evidence are you looking for?

-- Hiway (Hiway441@aol.com), May 21, 1999.

DMH you might not know it but MN has been here since Jan. or early Feb. He/she has presented the same arguement i.e. "put up or shut up" from the start. All won't agree but I think it adds balance. Pro or con, we need to view both sides of an issue to reach a conclusion.

(I wish I could learn that nifty color stuff myself!)

-- lurk (lurk@lurk.lurk), May 21, 1999.

So DMH I guessing that when it comes to Gary North that he can post whatever he feels since he is Gary North? In your logic then Gary North could say that someone sent him a email and post it on May 9th of this year that is someones experience but then two weeks later post it again as fact? Too bad the real world doesn't work like that.

Its so wonderful that reality in this forum takes a back seat. If Gary North were on the stand in a court, he would be committing purjury.

Pat "The world is ending in 8 months. Want a two year subscription to my newsletter?"

-- Pat (BAMECW@aol.com), May 21, 1999.

You mean like this? Nothing to it!

Pat said:

A he wrote on May 19th that the letter was sent to him from a programmer. This is what he wrote:

"This, from a programmer who wishes to remain anonymous."

But he he posted this allready on April 12th, the same exact story. But never a mention at all about a programmer. If this isn't stretching the truth, then I don't know what is.

You jump to conclusions. Why not make up an even better story? Don't you think Gary "The Master Embellisher" North could do better? I have sent him stories, and he has never even bothered to publish them. He said he gets bunches of them. That's why I think he is sincere.

-- a (a@a.a), May 21, 1999.