The time for talk is over folks.

I have the pollyannas/trolls figured out.

After yesterday's debate with Flint (www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000nd7), upon which he made absolutely NO SENSE, and resorted to diversion, emotional logic and contextual deviance...I have concluded that not only do we waste our time with them, but we have been set-up for engagement.

We are at war. This is a battle for Y2K awareness and triumphing ideology. The debate has been raging for some months polly vs. doomer, but I don't think you folks realize that the pollyannas and trolls have always looked at this forum and those that take Y2K seriously with utter contempt and disgust. The fact we even exist disturbs and frightens them. So they have set-out to attack and destroy the resolve, debate and awareness of those posting on this board, and to destroy it altogether. Some have even pointedly said so.

Truth is irrelevant to them. This isn't about learning about the risks, the preparation, the exchange of information or the efforts themselves...for the pollyanna this is all about scapegoating, namecalling and debunking in an effort to eliminate our resolve to scream a warning message, digest the news, discuss the canvas taking shape in the world and increasing the awareness of the biggest threat posed to our way of life since the Tower of Babel.

In times past, those that were screaming "The End Is Near", were simply ignored, giggled about, and left alone by those who assumed they knew better. Today, Pollyannas will not leave those that believe in a Milne scenario alone...they view us as a threat, a danger, a disruptive element. An element that must be silenced. If not by force, then by derrision and ridicule. By spin and personal attack of speculative mental capacities, not the subject at hand.

Pollyannas are NOT trying to "understand" the doomer viewpoint. They seek to destroy it, and prevent it's spread. As I said, this is an ideological war.

Polly's like Flint, Hoffmeister, Paul Davis and Norm are playing out an agenda. Trolls like JBD, Y2K Pro, Helen Wheels and other idiots serve to do nothing more than desecrate the forum altogether. They create discord and disgust among the regulars, and discourage the lurkers and the info seekers from surfing here.

Those that even remotely consider Y2K and the geopolitical arena taking shape in the world as a potential threat, need to realize this war we are engaged in.

We need to realize that the time for talk is over. There is precious little time left, and too much to do to continue quibbling with either the braindead or the sabateurs. They will NEVER be swayed by your presentation of logic or facts, and you have to realize this. They will goad you, they will slam and flame...and let them think they are succeeding. An ancient Asian technique I teach my martial art students when overwhelmed is to let the enemy buffet you like the wind buffets the reed, and when they have exhausted themselves, you will still remain upright to strike back.

What I suggest is: Bunker Mode. Ignore the pollys as you would the trolls. Avoid engagement where possible and if you must engage, attack their facts and points...not them personally --it has a greater impact. Yes this is a change for me, but I've done the trumpeting long enough...and those that have an ear to hear has heard. It is time to focus on your own readiness...and to let the walking dead continue to sputter and sound endlessly, as they will whether you engage them or not.

Now I'm not suggesting we give up and hand the forum over to them. Let us talk amongst ourselves, ignoring the polly/troll mantras. We can hear one another through the din and noise of the polly's around us which will get even shriller before they fade.

Let them think they've won the ideological battle. Let them rest on their rhetorical laurels. The manifestation of real-life events will soon overtake them and any ability they have to ward them away. We just need to realize that a major weapon being used already is the weapon of scapegoating...you need to know and expect to have the blame for everything placed on your heads. It will be heavy, and it will be insidious. Know that and expect it. It will make preparing for that inevitability much easier. What ramifications of that propaganda tool I have no ideas other than speculation, but if you're physically prepared...and you've mentally prepared for the myriad scenario discussed on this board, you have less to fear than the pollyannas will.

Now, I'm essentially talking about preaching to the choir...but know that iron sharpens iron...and much edification can be done to build one another up to face and endure the event on the horizon.

We have no need to be ignorant of the polly/troll devices which they use to engage. Once you know what their agenda and purpose on this forum is (Disinformation, discouragement, disgust and destruction), the better we will be cope with their noise, and to ignore them completely.

Now they're gonna swear up and down that they have no such agenda...and that they're just trying to "correct" misinformation and paranoid delusionals. Let them say so, but then ask yourself why they bother harrassing those that unwaveringly believe in a Milne Meltdown? Would you go to the GNIABFI board to try and sway their collective opinions of Gary North??? No, you wouldn't be throwing your pearls before swine...it's pointless.

The same thing is true here.

Throw not your pearls before the polly/swine. They will simply trample them underfoot.

Make ready for yourself, and edify the likeminded....as the geopolitical/societal events about to unfold will trample the unprepared underfoot.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 07, 1999

Answers

You sound delusional INVAR..........If you were to be objective you would see that the 'doomers' are far more critical and ridiculing of the 'pollys' than vice versa.

Your own words "Throw not your pearls before the polly/swine" expose you!

You try to sound O so high and mighty with your continual use of Biblical phrases that you can't see (as you would word it) the plank in your own eye.

Yeah...you're right INVAR, in your own eyes. Perhaps you should write an essay. Topic: Compare and contrast the words and deeds of INVAR with those of the Biblical Pharisees.

Compare them.....reminds me of a kids card game.......SNAP!

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), May 07, 1999.

Furthermore, no spoons for you. You are definately not one with the spoon. The spoon is actually ignoring you.........how could you have sunk so low as to anger the spoon.......

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), May 07, 1999.

Agree.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 07, 1999.

INVAR, you are one wierd little tater. It's no wonder you're always on your PeeCee. No one in the real world could stand to be around you.

You and Andy MUST be related (somehow, someway).

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 07, 1999.

INVAR- Get a life will ya?? The reason why some of us don't even bother posting normally is because people like you refuse to even entertain the thought that you could be wrong!!! Quit eating and breathing this stuff, and get on with your life!! You folks are NOT the all- knowing, all-seeing ones that you say you are!!

-- Lurker1 (Lurker1@y2kOK.com), May 07, 1999.

I agree, INVAR. Their moron responses here illustrate the level they are working on.

One thing that has helped me is to realize that a whole lot of people are going to suffer. God, or Fate, or whatever, has guided me to a position of relative safety. No question, I've had help. Those who are similarly led will seek out the truth regardless of the disruptors and accusers. Those who turn away will likely be caught unprepared, and we have to make our peace with that. Part of it is premature "survivor syndrome," feeling like we have to save everyone. We don't. We need to do only what we can do, with people who are ready to listen. Those who have tried to raise public awareness with meetings, etc., have found out how easy it is for those meetings and neighborhood groups to be subverted and shot down by the thousand interested parties who see awareness as a threat. Many vicious idiots like those you mentioned will bend over backwards to discourage preparers; some with subtlety, some with off-putting disruption. They will, essentially, kill many easily led people. I've made my peace with it, and am confident that, while we're headed for a dark time, we will emerge on the other side a wiser and more virtuous people. Just make sure you and yours get to that farther shore. See you there,

Dano

-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), May 07, 1999.

INVARiably IMBECIlic gets inducted into the Hypocrites Hall of Shame with this:

" Avoid engagement where possible and if you must engage, attack their facts and points...not them personally --it has a greater impact."

Here's how he follows his own advice:

"You are nothing but dogshit on the bottom of my shoe. And if the opportunity ever arises, I shall scrape you from it with extreme prejudice. INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 04, 1999.

..I'd rip you apart with my bare hands. And unlike Andy, (generous soul that he is), I wouldn't give you my piss to drink if you were dehydrated to the point of death." INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 06, 1999.

Congratulations INVARiably CONSTipated, you have reached a new level of hypocricy - I'm sure the Cult Of Death will have a medal for you...

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), May 07, 1999.

Amen Dano.

Best of luck.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 07, 1999.

INVAR, I agree completely. Those that will not study the facts on their own, aren't going to be swayed by us. It is ashame that so many will go so quietly, saying only, "But I thought you said", "This is America, you can't do this!", "They know what they're doing, we'll be ok.", "Things will get better, You'll see." "It's all those survivalist's fault. Everyone knows that we MUST migrate to a one world government. If people must be culled in the process, so be it, as long as it's not me or mine. And no, I don't have any say so as to who will be in charge of this movement, but I'm sure that they have our best interests at heart." "Whatever, as long as I don't lose any money." I think that about sums it up. So keep posting. There are a lot of us out here that ARE willing to be sharpened.

-- Paladin (HaveGun@Will.Travel), May 07, 1999.

INVAR has it all figured out folks. Yeah, listen to him, he has all the answers. He can tell you exactly what will happen and exactly what you should do.

If this is an example of the way that most here think, then this place *is* a loonie bin.

On the other hand, if most here don't buy this crap, then why haven't you people been challenging this stuff?

-- Buddy (.@...), May 07, 1999.

Hypocrite no. I'm changing strategy.

I make no apology for what I said 4 May, I meant what I said, and I still do.

Direct confrontation with a polly/troll as attempted was pointless as I learned. Yesterday's thread was a big wake-up call to that futility. Polly's are either braindead or they have an agenda of disruption and disinformation.

Basically what I'm saying is; the hell with all of you polly's and trolls. I got no time for your filth. I know what you're all about, I know what you stand for, I know the tools you use and I will waste my time engaging you no further.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 07, 1999.

Thank you INVAR. I hope you actually follow your own advice.

Palladin: What FACTS are you referring to? If there is one FACT in this whole Y2K fiasco it is that few FACTS have been revealed to the masses! We are left to speculate based upon rumor & innuendo. I speculated last summer there is a chance of serious repercussions from Y2K. I prepared accordingly. If you have FACTS, please share them!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), May 07, 1999.

Stay the course, INVAR. I share your anger at these people, who are telling us all to keep to our seats - in a burning theater. They've invaded this forum, and it's infuriating. But all our anger does (in the current situation) is amuse them, and shock the more delicate newbies into a low opinion of preparedness advocates. Just what they want. I commend you for your wise decision.

Just read their posts, essentially calling us poo-poo heads and sticking their tounges out at us - no argument, no refutation of the daily mounting evidence that communications, financial systems and logistics will collapse; no acknowledgement of the government's open contingency planning ("...the free market may not be the ideal way to distribute goods..." -Koskinen); no acknowledgement of open preparations for martial law... They're all hot air.

Stay frosty amigo,

Dano

-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), May 07, 1999.

Just scroll past them. Don't answer them. Ignore them.

-- David (C.D@I.N), May 07, 1999.

INVAR: I don't consider myself a survivalist, just a GI who is storing some food & water, has a generator, and some back-up heat for the Minnesota winter. I do, however agree with you 100%. If these dipshit pollys, DGI's, or whatever, don't like what they see here, STAY THE HELL OUT. Oh, and if any of you pollys get real hungry or thirsty later this year, or the first part of 2000, you be sure and come to my place. Don't bother even knocking, just walk right in. I'll put a .357 magnum slug right in your stupid ignorant gut.

-- rick (I'mset@home.house), May 07, 1999.

Bingo, congratulations! With one sweeping statement, you have totally errased all of the FACTS that so many here have researched, and posted for the benefit of all of us.The Fact that you BELIEVED there would be a problem, and prepared, shows that you studied, and acted accordingly. So someone less willing to see the FACTS than you, at that time in your life, was perfectly correct to blast your warnings all to hell because you were just a little bizarre at that time in your life, right? So now that you are NORMAL again, you have gotten rid of your supplies,and are confident that nothing is going wrong, and all is well because you have NEW facts that changed your BELIEFS?

Please share these new Facts with us. I will be more than willing to read YOUR facts, and not flame you if I disagree. PROMISE

-- Paladin (HaveGun@Will.Travel), May 07, 1999.

Invar: As said before the pollys and trolls are part of the problem and notthe solution. THE TRUTH POINTS TO ITSELF.

-- Ver Dadera (eljefe@culo.com), May 07, 1999.

I totally agree DANO. You and Invar and the others who are so offended by anyone who disagrees with you should just quit wasting your time on the Internet. You have many wonderful preparations to make so you can crow over us poor fools who do not see TEOTWAWKI coming down the chute. Better get busy, you have only 150 working days until the END!

I suggest you and Invar and Andy and the others who can't stand the "polly" element just exchange email addresses and use email to communicate instead of this forum. Thus you will not be pestered any longer by us "polly criminals with blood on our hands who are so liberal we want the govt. to take care of everything and don't have any common sense and are total fools and wastes of your valuable time". So go already.

If you keep on showing up, I will know you are in something making money off of Y2K and will try to find out what - you have no other excuse for wasting your time here. You said it yourself.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), May 07, 1999.

Two spoons for you..........

And yet, has INVAR no spoons, nada, zilch, not a sausage..........

Yet shall he continue his ranting even though he was found wanting and spoonless.......

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), May 07, 1999.

Palladin,

What are you talking about?

1.I BELIEVE (present tense) there may be a serious problem, and I prepared accordingly. Yes I studied the subject, and continue to do so.

2. I've always been a little bizarre! ;-D I don't base my self- esteem upon others' opinions of me.

3. FACT vs. OPINION: I hoped the vast majority of large & medium-sized corporations would announce Y2K compliance by the first week of January 1999. As you know this has not panned out. Does this FACT, the dearth of announcements, mean these corps. aren't compliant? Not necessarily. Personally I think most aren't yet compliant. This is an OPINION.

I don't see much in the way of facts being presented here. Why? Because facts, whether regarding Y2K or anything else in this life, are a rare animal! Watch out for opinions posing as facts. Please use your powers of discrimination to ID facts from opinions, speculations, etc.

Best of luck,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), May 07, 1999.

Paul, Did you re-read your post? With every word, you show that YOU become just as angry of those that don't agree with YOU. Your solution is the same. "Go away" I don't see anything in your post that would make me take notice. I don't even see any good ideas. Just another child shouting to be heard.

-- Paladin (HaveGun@Will.Travel), May 07, 1999.

I have often wondered how many of the pollys are frightened bankers.Has any one else considered this?

-- Betty Alice (Barn266@aol.com), May 07, 1999.

Bingo, I'm glad that you are prepared, and you are right. Spin is on everything. There are coverups galore. Facts and Opinions do become confused. But I would hope that you would see the possibility that there is more afoot than just y2k. Yes we are all in the what we believe area on most of these subjects. It still pans out that those who study, and know the history, and the Facts. Have a darker opinion,than those who only want to be heard.

-- Paladin (HaveGun@Will.Travel), May 07, 1999.

Perhaps nothing personifies Doomer temperament more than the following from Ric:

"Oh, and if any of you Polly's get real hungry or thirsty later this year, or the first part of 2000, you be sure and come to my place. Don't bother even knocking, just walk right in. I'll put a .357 magnum slug right in your stupid ignorant gut."

There it is folks - Someone looking forward to killing a fellow human being. Ric, if you're in my neighborhood and you need help, I will give it to you. That's the difference between a Doomer and a "Polly"...

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), May 07, 1999.

Minions, Betty. Hoards of slavish minions, cheap, and by the sackful. Goons, shills, punks and palookas. Plants. Private Investigators. Puppets. Tools, cogs, thralls and trail-sniffing trackers. Bodyguards, fixers, cleaners, and call-girls to calm those tired nerves. Front-men. Yes-men. And yes, Virginia, even G-men. Hidden armies of the damned, plodding relentlessly onward in the service of: Money, Incorporated.

I'm just jealous, of course.

Dano

-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), May 07, 1999.

Y2k and Rick are probably the same person. Or on the same team.

Just a thought.

Dano

-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), May 07, 1999.

When you get right down to it, this is the Doomer's fundamental defense of their position. Rick is at least honest enough to strip away the pretenses.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 07, 1999.

INVAR:

I have always thought the best approach to trolls was to ignore them, but other regular posters always seem to take the bait. Now this once helpful forum has become filled with pointless arguments, and is clogged with posts from people not the least bit interested in preparing for Y2K. Let's see if shunning will work.

-- Pearlie Sweetcake (storestuff@home.now), May 07, 1999.

y2kpro, How can you say that if times get bad, that you would be of any help. You're not preparing for a bad time, right? It's easy to SAY that you will help. It's quite another to be prepared to help. Might I suggest that you stock something in your pantry, so that you don't end up eating your words.

-- Paladin (HaveGun@Will.Travel), May 07, 1999.

Pearlie:

Good idea. Maybe if we ignore sickos like Rick, they'll go away? He certainly fits every definition of a troll I've seen.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 07, 1999.

"When you get right down to it, this is the Doomer's fundamental defense of their position. Rick is at least honest enough to strip away the pretenses."

Flint, you're always bragging that you apply logic. This is ludicrous. Is this you or an imposter, seriously? You are saying that my (since people consider me a doomer) position is a pretence and, what? That, underneath it, my intent is to harm people, kill them and/or turn them away? WHATEVER you meant by that rivals the dumbest things I have ever heard anyone say on this forum. Obviously, this is not in the slightest a justification of "Rick's" post.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 07, 1999.

Not going to go away, going to blow you away. Got you in the crosshairs Flint & dano. I'm no troll, just an Amurican exercising his 2nd amendment right to protect his home and family from ignorant scum.

-- rick (I'mset@home.house), May 07, 1999.

No, Big Dog, I don't regard you as a Doomer. As far as I can tell, you are trying as hard as anyone here to peer into the future, assess the available material, temper it with your own experiences, and err on the side of caution. All of which makes everything you say worth reading and thinking about very carefully. You have helped me a great deal, with information and with preparations. I appreciate this.

Rick, now, is a Doomer. Not a researcher, not a thinker, not an analyzer, not a synthesizer. As I said, he falls into the troll category. Entirely too many contributors here fall into that category. He cannot see anyone but 'enemies' and cannot think of anything to do but kill them. And that's what I call a Doomer.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 07, 1999.

Call the pollys and trolls what they really are: "Jammers!" Anybody with a communications background understands. Then adjust the squelch level and ignore.

-- (snowleopard6@webtv.net), May 07, 1999.

O.K. Time to be a good boy. Sorry about the shooting comments, I would only use deadly force in a life-threating situation. I would never just blow people away. I am a reasonably normal person, nice house in a suburb, regular job at a software firm, wife & 2 kids, 2 dogs, ect. I just happen to be putting SOME food away, and I bought enough camping water jugs to store 110 gallons of water. If this(Y2K) turns out to be no big deal then great, I don't have to buy groceries for a while. But if it's more than a little problem then I am set for the short-term. the Bible says I should help my fellow man so if Y2kPro comes to my house starving, he'll get food. If he comes and tries to TAKE my food, using forceful methods, he MIGHT get shot. Because I do own weapons and will use them, ONLY IF ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY. Again, sorry about the shooting threats.

-- rick (I'mset@home.house), May 07, 1999.

The war continues.

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), May 07, 1999.

Rick:

It's hard not to get carried away sometimes, I'm guilty too. Also prepared quite thoroughly. In fact, I'll be able to feed a few neighbors as well, should the need arise.

And I recommend shooting practice. Good fun, great tension reliever, and gut shots might not be effective quickly enough [g].

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 07, 1999.

As you know INVAR,

I dont personally see the Milne Meltdown scenario, as the most likely probable reality.

That said, it just pays, to pay attention.

And avoid the soft cow patties ... when walking through pastures and mine fields.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), May 07, 1999.

And you likewise Diane.

Tread softly....but carry a big stick.

All the best.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), May 07, 1999.

Good post INVAR. You are a little farther out on the limb than me, but we definitely inhabit the same tree.

-- a (a@a.a), May 07, 1999.

Cain't we all just git along?

-- Rodney King (rodney@quit.hittingme), May 07, 1999.

Golly!

INVAR and I have been around the bend before, and I have accused him of being a wacko paranoid loner. But I was wrong! Yes, I was wrong about that.

He has friends who feel the same way.

Regards,

-- Mr Deedah (used2B@unkeeD.B4civility), May 07, 1999.

Snowleopard

Absolutely right!!

INVAR -- thanks for the message.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Duh Moines (dtmiller@nevia.net), May 07, 1999.

INVAR,

What amazes me from the other side of the aisle is that your prophets have been wrong on every single major prediction -- without fail -- EVERY SINGLE ONE -- including the Euro, the "Jo Anne Effect," the Airline Reservation System, the "fact" that Canada wouldn't be ready for its new fiscal year, the "fact" that Japan wouldn't be ready for its new fiscal year, the "fact" that New York and WalMart and KMart and dozens of other entities wouldn't be ready for their new fiscal years, the fact that we should be seeing bank runs NOW, the fact that, not only should Wall Street's computers have crashed when the Dow sailed past 10,000, but the stock market itself should be in deep trouble by now due to Y2K failures, and on ... and on ...

I think it shows astonishing and unbelievable chutzpah for you to accuse us of not "getting it," or of not examining the facts.

What we're actually seeing here is the Doomlits returning with renewed vigor after a serious lull (the result of the one-two-three punch on April 1st). They think that by raising the volume level to that of a rock concert, by handwaving and distracting people from all of these failed PREVIOUS predictions, that we "DGI's" will somehow come to "see the light" and start believing the NEW predictions.

Sysman tries to deflect the April 1st failures by insisting that "look aheads" are only a tiny fraction of all date-sensitive code. I decided to look into the thing, and in fact, the figures vary from industry to industry, but the average is about 40-50%. In insurance and banking, look-aheads are more common than any other date-sensitive calculation.

Therefore: if there really were "too many lines of code and not enough programmers," we should be seeing major Y2K failures in insurance and banking *NOW*.

Not in six months, not "well, they're there, but y' hafta dig for 'em (that's Cory's approach)!" NOW.

And you call *me* a DGI? Heh.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 08, 1999.

Take it to the enemy camp. Buddy, er...Doomslayer says in his post "INVAR is foaming at the mouth. Why can't I stay away from that loonie bin? I wish Debunky would get more action."

http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb237006

Doomer declares war (Buddy, er...Doomslayer) (07-May-1999 15:50:48)

Re: Doomer declares war (Johnny Canuck) (07-May-1999 16:04:58)

Loony Bin? (Unc D) (07-May-1999 21:55:44)

Re: Doomer declares war (Stephen M. Poole, CET) (08-May-1999 00:20:35)

stupid thing ended with a Bang! (Doc Paulie ) (08-May-1999 01:43:55)

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), May 08, 1999.

outings,

Thanks again. The more publicity you give the boards, the more people might wander over there and learn something.

-- Stephen M. Poole, CET (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), May 08, 1999.

Exactamundy, poo-poo. They'll learn how you run over here, rip a loud one, and run back over there sniggering "Look what I did to those EY morons!!! Look what they're saying now!!!" Like your chums Flint and Mutha.

http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum=9 24552302&P=Yes&TL=924466918

Hey Flint! Just wanted to tell you... Monday, 19-Apr-1999 16:05:02

207.227.230.19 writes:

I Liked your back-hand of Cory 'Had-a-lil-too-much-Saki' on the "our man Flint" thread at YourDung's. He's gotten mighty quiet since. Not that he'll shut-up, mind you... he has a golden cash-cow to milk. LOL!

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), May 08, 1999.

Thought everyone could use a good hearty belly laugh just prior to the movie. :^)

-- Dolt Detector (blast.from.the.past@zero.hour), November 21, 1999.