Welcome to the PANIC of 1999!greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
For you people that still think those of us that are preparing for y2k are nutsyou have to remember that with your head buried in the sand on the current state of world affairs, you probably are not getting enough air to think straight. Please pull your head out now and welcome to the PANIC of 1999!
When the iron curtain fell most of the Soviet Union and other former Soviet Bloc countries economy fell into a mob controlled mess much like the days of Al Capone in Chicago. I am sure that the CIA has been a beehive of activity trying to keep a lid on the thousands of nuclear, biological and chemical bombs, raw plutonium and nuclear fuel rods that have been made available on the open market since the empires demise. How many are missing? No one in the government seems to know.
What are we in for when Turkey is currently threatening to go to war with Greece and Russia over the fact that Russia is selling and delivering nuclear weapons to Greece? Then theres that little war-of words going on now between India and Pakistan over each others new found nuclear weapons technology. What about the ever expanding war in Kosovo? Has anyone noticed that Saddam Hussein has a really nasty (anyone that isnt Muslim and believe like I do, should be DEAD) new friend by the name of BinLaden? If I keep going we will be here all day!
At this moment I am sure there is an immense number of individuals and groups out there around the world that, in the name of religion and many other causes have a BIG party planned for the millennium. Of course there have been many of these factions trying to cause problems at every turn-of-the-century in history, only this time around we have all those nasty little nuclear, chemical and biological warfare agents that are readily available to the general public. Remember no matter where there is a problem the wind and the water have a tendency to spread the effects of those things around a bit.
Think about the entire worlds history, organized religion has been the number two cause of death following only natural death! Do you realize that more people have died in the name of religion then all of the wars and all the plagues combined? Remember the cult from Denver that they rounded up in Jerusalem recently that was there specifically to incite war between the Arabs and Israel in 1999? Do you think they are the only ones?
The worlds current course of action is so outdated that we as a society must insist that the wars, the killing, the crime and the abuse of any creature of any kind has to be stopped. Isnt it time, that we started concerning ourselves with cleaning up the massive amounts of pollution and civil unrest of the world instead of what we are doing now?
DO YOU THINK THAT IF YOUR GOD (whoever/whatever he/it may be) were walking the planet today that he would in anyway endorse the destruction of it, or its creatures in his name, or for any cause? Even if you are not religious, doesnt it make sense to insist, that we as a humane race should live by the Ten Commandments? Everybody worldwide must now get on with a new more evolved way of thinking. Everyone on this planet is eventually going to come to the conclusion that being on a quest for greater personal wisdom, inner peace and happiness without destroying the planet is the only thing we all should be living for. If we could spend all of our time doing that we would finally have peace and harmony.
In the mean time PREPARE for the worst as much as possible, we all know there is no shortage of bad guys out there no matter what happens in the future. Those who prepare are usually not the first casualties, and world certainly has had a long list of them. Right now you should be like a sponge and absorb everything you can about individual preparedness.
-- BigGuy (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 28, 1999
>DO YOU THINK THAT IF YOUR GOD (whoever/whatever he/it may be) were walking the planet today that he would in anyway endorse the destruction of it, or its creatures in his name, or for any cause?
What God Wants, God Gets. -Roger Waters
-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), April 28, 1999.
"Do you realize that more people have died in the name of religion then all of the wars and all the plagues combined? "
A common enough accusation, but I don't believe it. This century has been pretty bloody, but nearly all the butchery has been non-religious in nature (WWI, WWII, Stalin's purges, Mao's agrarian mis-management, Pol Pot, African civil wars, etc. etc.). People hate each other with or w/o religious differences between them. Take religion out of the picture altogether, & not much changes.
-- we're (email@example.com), April 28, 1999.
Mr. Big Guy...sir not that I doubt you, but cold you please post a link (or the address) to the place where you got the news that russia has sold nuclear weapons to Greece. I was aware that there was hotility ove the sale of short range anti aircraft missle batteries to be placed on Cyprus...But not of the nuclar weapons sale. Thank you very much Dutchman
-- Dutchman (Electric@Shock.owee), April 28, 1999.
Try this link for weapon's sale...
-- (Oh Boy@y2k.com), April 28, 1999.
<< "Do you realize that more people have died in the name of religion then all of the wars and all the plagues combined? " >>
Bzzzzzt!! Try again. In addition to the tragedies of the 20th century pointed out by "We're Off Topic" above (with casualties numbering many tens of millions), why don't we just toss in the major conquests of the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Ghenghis Khan [sp?], Attila the Hun, et al. How about the American Revolution, the War of 1812, the Spanish-American War, and the Civil War, none of which were religiously motivated at their core? And BigGoof says that we should throw in the Black Plague too (1/3 the population of Europe at the time).
Care to match those casualty for casualty with actual, historical examples of religious conflicts, Mr. Big?
Can't be done. Not even close.
-- David Palm (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 28, 1999.
Boy am I glad you caught that so soon, you are absolutely right in what you said about missile sales to Cypress. I for some reason knew that all along but typed it incorrectly. Must be getting old or something. Anyway sorry for the mistake, and thanks again for correcting meBigGuy
-- BigGig (email@example.com), April 28, 1999.
Certainly a lot of the leaders and their advisors that you people are mentioning had religious beliefs or were guided by religious leaders of their time.If people of different belief or opinion did not agree...well you know the restA lot of rigeousness has been interpeded throughout history with the religious leaders of the times justifying the actions of the tyrants.
-- BigGuy (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 28, 1999.
Sorry I misspelled righteousness in the post above. Also isn't thinking of ones self as God also a form of religious belief?
-- BigGuy (email@example.com), April 28, 1999.
If we could time travel I think we would find that the real story is more than a little different than what the history books say. Don't you think that most people, maybe even well above 90%, would resort to fighting only in defense? Most mentally balanced people through the ages were probably happy just growing their food and eating it. To find the cause of war look no further than the money trail and the genetic mutants it leads to. These Godless freaks always find plenty of lickspittles to surround themselves with(dictators, presidents,NGO's, kissenger,kings, generals and other assorted puppets)and this has always been the nature of the beast. Religion and other high causes are used to dupe the commoners into doing the killing and dying. I am taking y2k seriously, but what really spooks me is the ease with which the present gang of misfits is still herding the sheep into the pen.
-- mj (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 28, 1999.
Hey Dutchman! Kan je een beetje Hollands praten? Waar woon je?
-- freddie (email@example.com), April 29, 1999.
ROTFL! What a dodge, BigGoof! "Well, even if all those wars had nothing to do with religion, I'll bet the people who started them had some religious beliefs. And, and, and, you know, I'll bet some religious people probably thought those wars were ok so that kinda makes them religious wars. So I'm still right, eh?"
-- David Palm (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 29, 1999.
By the way, I did not call them religious wars; that was you showing your intelligence, just that most leaders in history have justified their actions to their god, and religious conviction has steered a lot of decisions that have been made in the past.
-- BigGuy (email@example.com), April 29, 1999.
Sorry, BigGoof, I'm not going to let you off. You said:
<< Think about the entire worlds history, organized religion has been the number two cause of death following only natural death! Do you realize that more people have died in the name of religion then all of the wars and all the plagues combined? >>
Put simply, these statements are full of crap. Tell us exactly how "organized religion" can be blamed for the conquests of the Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Asiatic nomads, and the various territorial wars fought by the Dutch, Spanish, British, French, Americans, Soviets, Chinese, Vietnamese, and Cambodians. Go ahead, tell us that.
Those wars, coupled with the plagues you said we could include, add up to a casualty list that's probably 1,000-10,000 times greater than all the genuinely "religious" wars combined. But you don't mind being off by a factor of 3-4 orders of magnitude? Your point still holds?
Although we are indeed off topic, I do think there is a tangential application to Y2K here. We've already seen the propensity for media and governmental elites to characterize behaviour in Y2K-prep circles they don't like as religiously motivated; to them that makes it both suspicious and dangerous. If Y2K turns out to be a real blow-out then you can rest assured that there will be plenty of religion- baiting, both by the powers-that-be and by your average unprepared Joe who's looking desperately for a scapegoat to explain why his comfy world fell apart.
Statements like those offered up by BigGoof above are ridiculous and inane in the best of times. Still, they are standard public education fare and it seems that the mush-minds coming out of our schools are unable to analyze the myriad fallacies behind them.
But in the worst of times those inanities will transmogrify into vicious propaganda tools and be used to justify all kinds of actions. Witness Waco, TX. All you have to do is characterize somebody as a religious fanatic and you can burn him and all his family and friends alive. . . . and still be attorney general when the smoke clears.
So yeah, it matters when the Gildas and BigGoofs on this forum spout this kind of anti-religious bigotry. It matters just like anti- racial bigotry and anti-gender bigotry matter. Because in the best of times those attitudes are annoying. In the worst of times they're fatal.
-- David Palm (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 29, 1999.
and never mention to christians that Jeffery Dahmer,Ted Bundy,John- wayne Gacey,and Ed Gien all dwell in a christian heaven.All 4 serial killers repented and begged Jesus for salvation and forgivness for their sins.getting the same acceptance to heaven as mother theressa
-- BUDDHA-TROLL (email@example.com), April 29, 1999.
Big Guy, all that quibbling over Religion and Greece aside, I think you make a very good point. If the world as a whole doesn't act to outlaw nuclear weapons they will at some point in time be used. The devil is in the details. HOW do you get people to comply? Nukes are the easy part too. Any house or apartment can be used to develop Biological or chemical weapons, there is no way on Earth to control that. Yes if everyone lived by the ten commandments we would be a lot better off, but human nature being what it is this just aint gonna happen. Our course is set, and at some point in the near future these weapons will be used, so it would be foolish in the extreme not to prepare as best you are able.
-- Nikoli Krushev (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 29, 1999.