You've had your chance with the straight and narrow path. Now it's time for the path that exists everywhere, in everything and every one. :

-- Alison Tieman (fearzone@home.com), April 26, 1999

Answers

Huh?

-- you lost me there (wh@d.yousay?), April 26, 1999.

would christ consider this society to be "christian"? I wonder,to say nothing of christianity

-- zoobie (zoob@aol.com), April 26, 1999.

No, I hadn't noticed. I am a Christian and I consider this society to be post-modern, not Christian.

Whoops! This thread is way off topic; I shouldn't have answered it at all, I suppose.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), April 26, 1999.

May i draw an analogy to what you are trying to express here?

Many people who do not go to church, yet have a tiny amount of involvement with Jesus/God or religion, tend to pray before they take off in a jet. Are you trying to tell us the proverbial jet will be the size of earth when it starts its take off jan 1, 2000?

Feller

-- Feller (Feller@wanna.help), April 26, 1999.

the young monk asked the master:Master,does even a dog have the Buddha-Nature?the master responded:woof!

-- zoobie (zoob@aol.com), April 26, 1999.

What are christian societies characterized by? What is the essence of christianity? Is it a mushroom cult lead by a guy who said "Love is All", or is it a power structure created by the Roman Empire to perpetuate their rule?

Of course it's more complicated then that, but I believe that the essential mores and thought processes of christianity have been preserved. Christianity is about power and materialism. Christians of all eras obsess about the material, just as they do now. In the church of former eras the "elites" would engage in acts of sexual depravity, just as our elites do now, while condeming and surpressing those same acts amoung "peasants".

To understand further where I'm comming from... I tend to compare methodologies rather than results. The truth is in the process. Just because the object of guilt has changed, does not change the method of controling people through guilt. Likewise with fear.

How this relates to Y2K? I find it interesting that the fundementalist christians are saying that the end of the millenium will give human society a chance to go back to their God's rule, while forgetting that they've already had their chance and blew it big time. :) They disavow their part in making the current conditions come to fruition so that they can say their chance will come again.

Just because what communism ended up becoming was different from the shiny happy ideals of it's founders, doesn't mean it isn't communism. It's just actualized communism instead of theoretical. Just as our world is actualized christianity, not theoretical.

You will disagree. :) But only time and history will tell.

BTW, what does Christ have to do

-- Alison Tieman (fearzone@home.com), April 26, 1999.

Zoobie. :) Sounds like a Zen master.

The last line keeps getting cut off... I meant it to read; What does Christianity have to do with Christ or something to that effect.

No Cu

-- Alison Tieman (fearzone@home.com), April 26, 1999.

Hi Allison,

I'm writing on the road, on a borrowed computer with a sticky keyboard, so if this starts looking like it was posted by Dieter, please excuse me, it's not going to be up to even my usual marginal typing techniques.

As one of the Christian activists on this board I have to say that neither I nor anyone I know believes that the current dominant culture in American or European society is even vaguely Christian. That being said, nobody is giving up anything. I Realize it's currently fashionable to blame Christians for all kinds of things...but you'll find as you go on through life that there are always new targets for blame, depending on whoever the dominant cultural mavens of the day determine to be undesirable. Here's a newsflash: Christianity began as a religion of despised and persecuted people. Indeed in Africa and Asia Christians are still regularly persecuted: beaten, raped, imprisoned, and murdered for their faith. Our Asian and African brothers and sisters set the standard for the rest of us. Perhaps next time you feel like taking a swipe at Christians, you might start by talking to a few of them first.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 26, 1999.

I think this verse aptly describes our CHRISTIAN nation at this time:

..."This know also that in the last days, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, arrogant, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy. Without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers, liars, incontinent, fierce despisers of those that love good. Traitors, heady, highly opinionated, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God....HAVING THE FORM OF RELIGION - BUT DENYING THE POWER OF IT...

The so-called "Christian" churches of this nation are empty tombs. They teach the gospel ABOUT Jesus, but not the gospel OF HIM. It has become a religion of emotion.

The nation has gone the same way.

Judgement is on our heads folks. And it comes soon.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 26, 1999.

The verse above is II Timothy 3:1-5, lest ye think I made it up.

I think it describes the fall of our culture pretty well.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 26, 1999.

Arlin, I don't know what reality is coming to when self-described "Christian Activists" seem like some of the few sane people around. Boy is that a switch from the 'christianity' I grew up in, which was kind of like The Cult of Do It Our Way (...or you're not of us, and you're either for us or against us, and if you're against us you're evil, and we can't suffer a witch to live). Talk about quite a penalty for disagreeing about some pinpoint of theology.

You and some of the others around here are reasonable enough -- well at least publicly :- ) -- to be downright refreshing. It's enough to make me miss church.

Almost.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 26, 1999.

No sociey today is completely Christian, though there are Christians among us. The U.S. as a nation is certainly not "under God". I don't even have to labor that point. But be careful of labeling the majority of those religions that profess to be Christian, as proof positive that Christianity is bunk. That is no more logical than denying the existence of the Creator, because of the suffering so prevalent in the world. Job suffered, and didn't know why...but he was careful not to blame God. We, too, need to put faith and trust in our Father that He will do the right thing.. The Bible is most certainly another proof of a God who cares, but the misuse of the Bible, or the misinterpretations of it cannot be blamed on God. So the allegations that the Christians are materialistic, etc...is a dangerous path to take. I would suggest heartfelt exploration of the Bible, and an honest and diligent search for students of it who are living it..who are in fact, as a group...Christ-like.

-- The truth certainly exists.... (carefulwhatyabelieve@?.com), April 26, 1999.

PJ,

It sounds like we grew up in the same "church" ! And I agree that Arlin does have a refreshing attitude.

Personally, I refer to organized religion(claiming Christianity) in its current state as Christendom. The word sounds gray and murky like many current belief structures.

Modern day Christendom would probably crucify Christ again. Their primary function seems to be power and control. Not that there aren't Christ-Like individuals. There are ! In spite of the depraved state of the "church".

Christ never forced his teachings on people or developed a power structure to impose his teachings. And it would have been easy for him to do so. The Hebrews had been expecting the Christ to organize their nation into a military power and regain their freedom.

When Jesus Christ taught love and peace... because he wasn't the answer to their prayers the way they wanted them answered, they rejected him.

After his death, the power struggles started. Paul, while being one of the greatest preachers of the word even had to be rebuked by his fellow apostles for imposing his personal viewpoints on gentiles.

After the apostles were gone, the "church" became a political tool, abused greatly, most exemplified by Constantine.

The only time that Jesus Christ really "lost it" was in the temple, when he threw out the money changers in a rage... jealous for the pure worship of God. Today, the "church" is big money, lobbying groups, etc.

My personal relationship with God is better since I took the "church" out of religion. But, to each his own. I don't judge people by their religion. My attitude toward people is adjusted by their actions and their words.

Sorry for the Rambling....

-- WebRNot (webrnot@ncap13k.com), April 27, 1999.

BTW - INVAR I Agree !

-- WebRNot (webrnot@ncap13k.com), April 27, 1999.

I agree with you invar. I am a christian, and I try tto live my life according to the standards set it the bible. I feel that most people are as you put it, "holding the form of religion, but denying the power of it." This is seen best by Klintoon, who professes(In public) to be Christian, but in reallity, is a SATANIST!! The same with most "liberal christians", ie: traitors, perverts and liars.

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), April 27, 1999.

WebRNot: I agree with much of what you've said. Generally speaking, much of the church (at least among the Western nations) is a far cry from what Christ intended. I would also like to point out that in addition to the Asian and African Christians that Arlin mentioned, there are many individuals and churches throughout Europe, Australia, South Amercia and North America that are experiencing an awakening to the true teachings of Jesus Christ and are laying aside the political motivations and material gain to lay hold of Christ Himself.

Oh, and just to clarify, it was actually Peter who had to be rebuked by Paul. Peter caved in to pressure from former Jews who taught that Christians had to be circumcised. Paul publically confronted Peter and brought correction. After Paul stopped the circumcisions, I wonder how many men asked, "WHERE WERE YOU SIX MONTHS AGO . . . OUCH!!!!"

Alison: Our world is not "actualized christianity". That will not occur until Jesus returns to personally rule and reign. Trying to compare Christianity to Communism is like comparing apples to oranges. Perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be between Communism and Capitalism. While the founding of this nation was strongly influenced by Christians, it has become a melting pot of beliefs and influences that have shaped us into what we are today.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), April 27, 1999.

Arlin, i feel much as you, there are too many 'professing' and not enough 'acting' Christians, and the common secular error is to mistake the 'organized religion' for the original teachings.

WebRNot, Jesus didn't 'lose it' in the temple. look in Luke, i think, he visited the temple the night before, then slept on it. when he came back he did what he had to do to get their attention (kind of like what God may be doing right now, doncha think?).

this country (the USA) mouthes the words, and don't get me wrong, there are a lot of wonderful Christians here, but this is not a Christian country. a local talk-radio host pronounced the statistic that more people than ever attend church, but the current admin and a lot of other considerations belie the idea we are a Christian country.

-- Cowardly Lion (cl0001@hotmail.com), April 27, 1999.

If Christians would follow Pauls example and preach the kingdom of God maybe they/we would make some sense. Most Christians haven't got clue one as to what it is to be Christian. It is not about judging everyones actions.

(Acts 28:30 KJV) "And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,"

(Acts 28:31 KJV) "Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him."

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), April 27, 1999.

Two buddhist monks were walking pindabat(morning alms rounds)when they came to a shallow stream.standing at the stream,was a very beautiful woman.The woman,seeing the monks called out;"Monk!come here and carry me across this stream so I don't get wet.One monk shrugged,came over to the woman,put his hands together in the shape of a lotus bud,bowed,then picked the woman up and carried her across the stream,bowed,and continued on with his begging rounds.the two continued on silently for some time when the other monk said,"Brother,I believe you have acted in error,you picked up that beautiful woman and carried hre across the river,you tasted her lovlyness beneath her clothing.We have taken vows of celebacy and I fear you may have violated the precepts.The monk replied;"I put the woman down after I crossed the stream,why are you still carrying her around with you?

-- zoobie (zoob@aol.com), April 27, 1999.

If human beings treated each other with more respect, kindness, charity, etc regardless or race, creed, colour, religion, etc the world would be a far better place.

You do not need to be a Christian or any other religious denomination to be good to one another.

Regards, Simon Richards

-- Simon Richards (simon@wair.com.au), April 28, 1999.