Daughter just told me she went to Barnes and Noble in Wichita and her debit card with exp. date of 07 wouldn't process...salesperson said they've been having alot of problems with their computer and dates past the new year...said it was that darn Y2K bug!!

-- MUTTI (windance @train.missouri.org), April 25, 1999

Answers

Yes, this has been discussed before. I have had first hand comments from our credit card processing bank since our incident last year where we could not process our clients credit cards that ended in 00+.

It took over a week for the correct software to be forwarded to us. Imagine how long it will take when a large percentage of businesses are clamouring to have their banking problems addressed at the same time.

If you own a business, could you wait 4 to 6 weeks to receive correction software to process orders...and stay in business? If you're like most business owners, I'd say you'd go bust. We would.

Our credit card processing bank has made the statements to me personally that the major banks have been on this issue for 2 3/4 years. They held off issuing new cards ending in 00 for a full year, however, us Joe Public types didn't know anything Y2K related was happening at all. All we cared was that the durn card would work everytime we needed it. Just goes to illustrate that the large corporations are working on Y2K related problems without "notifying the public" what is going on. They don't feel that they have to. Yet, businesses have to falsify credit card transaction information (making me want to doubt ALL computer entries "validity") to make a sale for a person who's card "won't work", or else the business looses the sale and the person gets angry they can't make their desired purchase (perhaps a part to fix their broken car!).

The point is, the bank sees this as an inconvenience. We have come to rely on it as a major part of the way we work, live, and do business. It isn't only inconvenient, it is disruptive and damaging to both client and business.

To make matters worse, even though this has been "addressed" for nearly 3 years, there are still several hundred incidents like this happening every week to merchants who both have made computer upgrades as well as to merchants who have been remiss in upgrading their merchant software or system. Looks like to me, this wouldn't be happening with so many large banking systems spouting compliancy, or does this particular banking Y2K problem somehow fall out of the category of banking Y2K problems?

Mr. K

-- Mr. Kennedy (here@home.tonight), April 25, 1999.

Anyone who uses credit cards or debit cards unless really necessary (hotel reservations in some other city, car rental, etc.) is an IDIOT. Ever heard of cash? Even checks?

Half these Y2K problems -- actual and potential -- would never been a problem if you (that means, yes, most of YOU were not such idiots.

If you hadn't rushed like lemmings to use your credit card at Carl's Junior for a hamburger and at Safeway for a jug of juice, if you hadn't rushed to join an HMO to get your frickin' teeth cleaned "FREE"... the software now screwing up/getting ready to screw up -- WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN IN THE FIRST PLACE!

-- A (A@AisA.com), April 26, 1999.

A,

I think you have a point, Sir.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 26, 1999.

--A,

It has been a long time goal of the government to move our "society" to a cashless society. Incentives were given to the banking industries and large corporations for promotion of financed transactions via "credit cards", both in-house business credit cards (cards offered by the actual retailers for purchases in their own stores only), and universal credit cards offered by banking institutions.

It has been targeted to the less affluent, usually less educated, and young audiences. The price we are paying now is higher than the outrageous interest fees applied to the "purchases" made with these cards using "money" the cardholder doesn't have.

It has put regular businesses in a stranglehold. If a business doesn't offer to accept a clients credit card, it is perceived to be an inadquate store or business by that brainwashed consumer. Just consider that you CAN'T rent a car with CASH!!! Even if you put down $1000.00 deposit or sign your home over to them, they won't rent for CASH. More businesses were/are headed this way.

Bankruptcies are at a phenomenal rate - usually due to excessive credit card debt.

A person emailed me to ask if I have credit cards. I have one with a zero balance and no yearly fee - 8.9% interest. It will REMAIN unused unless I have to rent a car (and I'd probably go by bus in any event). Yes I do accept credit cards in business, but only because consumers demand this form of "payment" from virtually every business in existance. As a business owner, I rather have cash any day, of course, but I have been forced to pay the banking institutions outrageous fees to allow the consumer to run up debt on money they don't have, to get the money I need for buying products at my store.

After Y2K gets a stronghold on society, the already brainwashed plastic card crowd will line up with glee to get the "cashless card" for purchasing that will be government issued as paychecks are electronically transferred into their monitored banking accounts each pay period.

Mr. K
***can feel the push toward cashless existance and doesn't like it***

-- Mr. Kennedy (here@work.today), April 26, 1999.

Military payroll is done with a credit/debit card nowadays. No more standing in line to salute the pay officer.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), April 26, 1999.

A(A@AisA.com),All money is electronic,now.The gold standard is long gone,when you use cash,it's just a token pointing at electronic money,ones and zeros.Instead of concentrating on what makes others "idiots" look for what is similar,it will help prevent others as viewing you as an "asshole",speaking as a fellow asshole,it will make you feel better as well and certianly more pleasant to be around.

"Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Ben Franklin)

"If you believe everything you read, you better not read." (Japanese proverb)

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." (Abraham Lincoln)

"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." (Bertrand Russell)

-- zoobie (zoob@aol.com), April 26, 1999.

You're daughter has a card which doesn't expire until '07? I've never heard of one with an 8 year activation.

-- Hmmm (doubt@this.one), April 26, 1999.

for those who are unaware- a debit card merely accesses ones checking account. It is NOT a credit card. It works like a check but it's preferable to a check for some stores as the money comes directly out of your account- no bounced checks.

-- anita (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), April 26, 1999.

--anita

The cashless society doesn't care about debit/credit card differences. The fact is that you have no cash, are paying fees to use/carry non-cash transaction "plastic", and virtually every banking institution, big - brother finance company, credit reporting hound dog, and government agency including the IRS has access to ALL of your spending habits, location, frequency, and account balances at all times.

Use the debit card. Big Brother will know where you are, what you are buying, and how much you are spending ALL of the time. Now who is that really "convenient" for?

Mr. K
***will keep his cash, thank you***

-- Mr. Kennedy (y2kPCfixes@MotivatedSeller.com), April 26, 1999.

Mr. Kennedy is quite right in all regards, above. Read and heed. He obviously still has the patience to suffer fools, which I have long ago lost.

-- A (A@AisA.com), April 26, 1999.

Mutti doesn't even believe in credit cards but her daughter works for a construction company and is on the road in 5 different states. Her debit card accesses her checking acct. and the company she works for direct deposits her paychecks. Not too many people will take a personel out-of-town check, you know. Heck, in Mich. you had to pledge your first born child to cash a check at the grocery store. These cards do have benefits--would hate to think of her carrying around large sums of cash.

-- MUTTI (windance @train.missouri.org), April 26, 1999.

"Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Ben Franklin)

Some things deserve repeating UNTIL THEY SINK IN". Obviously the above quote was not / has not been repeated OFTEN ENOUGH, or this country would not be in the sorry state it is. "Bread" is nice, and I am a Capitalist, but "Man does not live by bread alone."

BTW, you can sign yourself into slavery to corporate fascism just as well as to government. (Ever heard of company towns and company stores?)

-- A (A@AisA.com), April 26, 1999.

"... would hate to think of her carrying around large sums of cash"

It all connects -- not a big problem with cash if everyone can carry -- openly and handily -- a means of self-defense. Here's a clue to government strategy for the clueless, here: Get the people disarmed and helpless, then offer to "save" them; Get them dependent, then offer to provide for them -- for a price (freedom).

As far as cashing checks -- I'm old enough that I recall a service offered -- very popular in California at least -- before credit cards started being used to buy a pack of gum at the liquor store -- that was called something like TeleCheck or TeleCredit. For a cost probably the same or less than that of processing a credit card sale, the merchant could get an authorization to accept a check. Authorization was based simply on whether or not TeleCheck had any record of bad checks prior. No hocking the baby or providing of life history by the check presenter required.

It's amazing some of you have found your way to this forum, clueless as you are about how things are in general.

-- A (A@AisA.com), April 26, 1999.

mr. kennedy..are you mr. willie kennedy???

-- wondering (just want to know@curious.com), April 26, 1999.

Dear"A"- just curious why you feel the need to insult those who you don't agree with...

-- anita (hillsidefarm@drbs.com), April 27, 1999.

Anita: Because there are so many of them (sounds like you're included) that are so f'd up and clueless, they have affected my life adversely.

You who write a check or use your credit card for a quart of milk, who were so eager to sign up for the supermarket chain "discount"/"member" cards, to join HMOs, to cry for registration of everything not nailed down and of everyone that moves, who think it's a good deal that you get some money "back" from the government (from excess withholding) when you file an income tax return, when you know nothing about the Constitution and therefore nothing about why you are not obligated to pay income tax in the first place, when you go boo-hoo and roll over for every "drug war" and "save the children" scam the government (fed, state, local) foists on you... that affects me -- and I resent it. It's not a disagreement. Your stupidity and cluelessness affects ME. That's why I insult you.

-- A (A@AisA.com), April 27, 1999.

anita,

There are VISA debit cards that withdraw from your checking account, but go through the standard credit card terminal system, hence they're subject to the same potential snafus.

Cash works, so does minimal plastic ... as an emergency back-up.

Diane

(A, calm down.)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), April 27, 1999.

Whoa, paranoia running pretty thick in this thread.

The ability of governments and businesses to know and monitor YOUR personal account balance and purchasing activity is greatly overblown. Is that available? Probably. But who has time to investigate and assimilate all the data and more to the point who cares? The only ones who have anything to worry about are those who have something to hide.

Anita, don't sweat these jerks. Zoobie's right. There's no essential difference between cash, checks or debit cards as a method of payment. ALL are valid forms of currency.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), April 27, 1999.

"What poor crack-brains we are! Easily upset and unable to take care of ourselves. If there were a precipice at our door, some would be found jumping off today, for fear that, if they survived, they might jump off tomorrow."

just a thought...

-- M. Moth (derigueur2@aol.com), April 27, 1999.

A,

I'm trying to stay out of politics on this forum, but are you a Libertarian? If not, maybe you should look into it. I have. <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), April 27, 1999.

"A": From you sig I conclude that the ideas presented by Ayn Rand hold significance in your mind. They do in mine as well. Anita asks a simple, though provocative question. In the process of honestly (without rationalizations) answering it, lies the essence of the heroes on Rand's novels. They do not flinch from the responsibility of grasping and understanding reality. Toward that end they incessently and innocently ask the question "why." My compliments to you Anita.

From your comments "A", I believe I can conclude you possess a great intelligence. However, the emotional trappings that apparently augment it serve only to undermine your effectiveness and must cause you much frustration. In trying to honestly answer Anita's question lies your spiritual awakening. Good fortune and don't give up.......

We all have choices. The aspect of reality in which we do not have a choice is the fact that eventually we must die. In all other encounters with reality, people or "things", we have the ability to choose what will be our evaluation, and ultimately our response. The fact that the rest of the people in this country have the ability to impact you "A", is simply a fact for you to deal with. No amount of anger, frustration, or "stomping of your emotional foot" is going to alter that fact. Deal with it.

While you and I may agree on the "wrongness" of the political environment in which we find ourselves, in the absence of choosing to pursue its change, we must accept it as it is (NOT THE "RIGHTNESS" OF IT!), and incorporate whatever relevance that fact mandates into what we choose to do.

As far as credit cards are concerned, they are yet another vehicle that serves as money. The marketplace has voted and these little pieces of plastic have grown in ever-increasing value in relation to "cash". The people that choose to use them do so for reasons that relate to the choices open to them as they determine them to be. To call these people names like "idiots" for doing so, reveals more about the nature/values of the person doing the calling then it does about whether or not the users of this form of money are in fact idiots.

-- Dave Walden (wprop@concentric.net), April 27, 1999.

"A" sounds like E. Coli reincarnated! Well maybe a much less experienced E. Coli.

-- lurker (just@watching.listening), April 27, 1999.

www.lp.org

-- Libertarian (back@to.basics), April 27, 1999.

Mr. Kennedy,

Thank you for your business-oriented views of the cashless society. In general I agree with them.

I worked for 11 years in electronic funds transfer programming, specializing in the processing of transactions within and coming from ATM and POS devices. This does not mean that I wholeheartedly welcome a cashless society. I don't, but can offer a view from another corner.

>Yet, businesses have to falsify credit card transaction information (making me want to doubt ALL computer entries "validity") to make a sale for a person who's card "won't work"

If by falsifying information you're referring to manual entry of a (19)"99" expiration year to override a post-2000 expiration date on the card, note that this is harmless. Since the card is current until after 1999 in reality, such an override is not enabling a transaction on an expired card.

Furthermore, I can assure you that the designers of EFT transactions and data structures have been well aware that manual entries of card information are almost always necessitated by various and sundry glitches, or absence of card reader, and are *never* to be interpreted as corrections of reliably-stored information about the card.

Similar considerations apply to manual entry of card information because the magnetic strip data is unreadable.

Such overrides do not really constitute falsification of information. They are workarounds for situations in which the automated data entry or processing is not working properly.

Now, manual entry of known-to-be incorrect information for fraudulent purpose is a different matter. Processing of a manually-entered (19)"99" expiration date for a card having an actual expiration of (19)"98" will not be accepted because the reliably-stored information about that card account at the issuing bank will show that the card is expired. IOW, the programming in the EFT systems will (or should, if correctly coded) accept a purported 1999 expiration for a truly 2000-expiring card because there is no harm in doing so, but reject a purported 1999 expiration for a truly pre-1999-expiring card.

>The point is, the bank sees this as an inconvenience.

If I understand you correctly, then shame on that bank. People at the financial services company I worked for generally would not have had that attitude. (We might've sworn at the situation, but viewed it as our problem to solve.)

>To make matters worse, even though this has been "addressed" for nearly 3 years, there are still several hundred incidents like this happening every week to merchants who both have made computer upgrades as well as to merchants who have been remiss in upgrading their merchant software or system.

Are you referring to software for programmable card terminals, software for general-purpose computers (PCs or mainframes), both, or something else?

>Looks like to me, this wouldn't be happening with so many large banking systems spouting compliancy, or does this particular banking Y2K problem somehow fall out of the category of banking Y2K problems?

I'd draw a distinction between a bank's Y2K compliancy and its customer relations competency. Could be high and low, or medium and low, respectively, in your case.

>Incentives were given to the banking industries and large corporations for promotion of financed transactions via "credit cards", both in-house business credit cards (cards offered by the actual retailers for purchases in their own stores only), and universal credit cards offered by banking institutions.

I don't know about government incentives for credit transactions. There were economy-of-scale incentives for my financial services company and its customers (networks of banks) to encourage growth in volumes of EFT transactions. When the transaction rate got over 100/second or so in our IBM-based systems, the queues honked along quite efficiently, and the next 100/second didn't require nearly as much incremental CPU resources as the first 100/second did. Our income was partly related to transaction volumes.

>It has been a long time goal of the government to move our "society" to a cashless society.

And it is important to keep pointing out the dangers! Thank you.

>It has put regular businesses in a stranglehold. If a business doesn't offer to accept a clients credit card, it is perceived to be an inadquate store or business by that brainwashed consumer.

Yes.

This is really sad.

I and my co-workers never intended our work making cashless transactions more feasible to be perverted to compel universal use.

The discoveries about human psychology initiated by Sigmund Freud have led to great benefit, but their application by modern business and advertising experts has also caused great detriment.

>Just consider that you CAN'T rent a car with CASH!!! Even if you put down $1000.00 deposit or sign your home over to them, they won't rent for CASH.

That is precisely why I applied for my first credit card (which was then initially denied because of "insufficient credit history", of course :-) shortly after undergoing my first need for significant auto collision damage repair to my first car.

>As a business owner, I rather have cash any day, of course, but I have been forced to pay the banking institutions outrageous fees to allow the consumer to run up debt on money they don't have, to get the money I need for buying products at my store.

For a few years a couple of decades ago, I made it a point to patronize businesses that offered a discount for cash. Then the card companies stomped on that. Sad.

>virtually every banking institution, big - brother finance company, credit reporting hound dog, and government agency including the IRS has access to ALL of your spending habits, location, frequency, and account balances at all times.

Well, maybe in theory, not in practice. But that's a quibble, because retrieval of that electronically stored information is feasible. See my comments to David, below.

>Use the debit card. Big Brother will know where you are, what you are buying, and how much you are spending ALL of the time. Now who is that really "convenient" for?

It's creepy. I advise people not to use plastic unless they've thought about the tradeoffs. Some of my EFT-programming co-workers refused to apply for debit cards. But I have and do use them.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 27, 1999.

David,

>The ability of governments and businesses to know and monitor YOUR personal account balance and purchasing activity is greatly overblown. Is that available? Probably.

I can tell you that, as of when I last did EFT programming, there were no built-in fields, flags, or switches in any of the EFT transaction data records to enable personal account monitoring.

But I can *also* tell you that that is a relatively meaningless omission.

It is a simple (a few hours' work at the most) matter to code and place into the "production" system an exit subroutine to monitor a particular account's activity in case of a law enforcement agency's request (let criteria thereof, and businesses' acquiescence thereto, be a separate debate) to provide credit/debit card transaction information such as location within seconds of the transaction's entry.

>But who has time to investigate and assimilate all the data

People using the computers that process the transactions.

>and more to the point who cares?

Lots of people.

>The only ones who have anything to worry about are those who have something to hide.

Are the walls of your house or other dwelling transparent? Or do you have something to hide, like EVERYONE ELSE does? Privacy should be considered an essential right, not a privilege.

>There's no essential difference between cash, checks or debit cards as a method of payment. ALL are valid forms of currency.

... but some are more conducive to invasion of privacy and control of behavior than others.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 27, 1999.

No Spam, that was generally my point. Banks allow the feds access to account information based on court orders every day. Businesses buy and sell information about the buying habits of customers every day. But I know of no one who takes the time and massive effort to investigate and assimilate data on individuals unless they are a specific target of the police, government or a private investigator. It's just too much work to put the pieces together otherwise. Case in point, in working with the government in reporting cash transactions in excess of $10,000, a Treasury agent directly informed me that the vast majority go unchecked. They simply use the reports as a cross check against drug figures under investigation. They simply do not have to time or manpower to check out more than the 5% who may find a hit on the cross check.

And while I also desire privacy and protect whatever privacy we have, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over the fact that big brother could find out where I shopped and what I bought. I am doing nothing illegal, so there's no reason to hide such activities. I do wonder what you meant when you said use of electronic purchases can be used to control behavior. How so?

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), April 27, 1999.

With the exception of some grocery stores and some gas stations, the "debit" cards you are using MUST have either a VISA or MC logo on them and be processed as one of the above through the standard MC/VISA processing center. At least that was the reasoning I received for the bank re-issuing my atm card. I turned one debit card down while trying to get an atm card. They said they could merchant-block it but I didn't want the possibility. Bank folks looked at me like I was a purple mutant for about a week.

C

-- chuck, a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), April 27, 1999.

No matter how loudly you yell NO NOT YET......

PS: the merchant pays the same processing fee regardless of debit/credit card.

And that fee can be EXHORBITANT!!!

C

-- chuck, a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), April 27, 1999.

David,

>I do wonder what you meant when you said use of electronic purchases can be used to control behavior. How so?

A. Shutting off or restricting electronic transactions (which require machine assistance which is not under the transactors' control) is much easier than shutting off or restricting cash transactions (which don't).

B. Use of electronic transactions to lure folks away from cash transactions. After a while, going "back" to cash becomes less and less feasible for those so lured. (Hey, the worm looks good to me, too!)

C. Electronic incentives/lures/bribes to induce folks to give up portions of privacy. By using my supermarket customer "club" cards to get discounts on a few prices, I reveal my purchase details. (If I didn't use the card to get the discounts, and paid cash, there'd be no record connecting my purchase details to my identity.)

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 27, 1999.

David,

>But I know of no one who takes the time and massive effort to investigate and assimilate data on individuals unless they are a specific target of the police, government or a private investigator. It's just too much work to put the pieces together otherwise.

But that's what computers are good for. They make feasible lots of things that would be infeasible without them. What's "just too much work" without a computer can become a "snap" with a computer.

>Case in point, in working with the government in reporting cash transactions in excess of $10,000, a Treasury agent directly informed me that the vast majority go unchecked. They simply use the reports as a cross check against drug figures under investigation. They simply do not have to time or manpower to check out more than the 5% who may find a hit on the cross check. Should we let our freedom depend on government's mere unwillingness to tackle the task when under-personed and under-computered, or should we have firmer protections?

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 27, 1999.

I agree with Spam.

The whole Y2K problem comes down to issues of convenience.

Its like someone could write a textbook on human behavior wholly from a standpoint of convenience. How about Psychology of Human Convenience. Anybody heard of a book like that? Would be very interested in hearing.

-- Jim the Window Washer (Rational@man.com), April 27, 1999.