Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that school shootings have increased since Clinton took office? Could it be that, by example, Clinton is teaching our youngsters NOT to use words to solve problems but to use violence instead? After all his Administration has had THREE TIMES AS MANY military actions than ALL ADMISTRATIONS SINCE WWII COMBINED!! He has demonstrated, time and again, his willingness to use force to resolve disputes when things don't go his way. Why should our children restrain themselves when the President can't?

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), April 21, 1999

Answers

I think they ALL have. First in 1994 I think. It's the social libs. outlook on life, that is at the root of this problem. We should ban Libs, not guns.

-- SCOTTY (BLehman202@aol.com), April 21, 1999.

Boy,

Geez, there were problems way before Clinton took office. That is really stretching things!

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), April 21, 1999.

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that school shootings have increased since "The end of the world as we know it" has been plastered over the web and now on mainstream TV? Not the simple precautions in case of problems, but the total distruction of "society" as Gary North and others are pushing? Anyone with a teen, especially male teens, knows what they go through, even fathers who went through it themselfs. Mothers sure know what our daughters go through..*sigh*. To have the possibility of no restrictions put in front of volitle teens is just begging them to shrug what little self control they have and just "go for the gusto".

Please, if you are just being prudent, divorce yourself from the extremests who are just using this to further their cause which existed before they heard of Y2K (and are using it to further that cause) and let people know you are doing what you are to prepare for just in case..which in itself is smart. But remember..if you sleep with dogs, you will get fleas. Differentiate yourself from the loonies. You will be listened to and respected for your efforts if you make it known you do not associate with the loonies.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 21, 1999.

Oh well, if were gonna get way off topic...

"Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love but to use violence to get what they want. This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion." --Mother Teresa

Today's kids are not unaware of the fact that fully one-third of their potential classmates were destroyed in the womb. The lesson of using violence to solve problems is not lost on them.

For 26 years we as a society have been sending the clear message that life is cheap. The twisted youngsters in Colo. were simply applying this concept in a new and gruesome manner.

I wish I was stunned and surprised by yesterdays horror, but Im not.

-- rick blaine (y2kazoo@hotmail.com), April 21, 1999.

For the last few months the issue dominating the media here in Denver is the new concealed carry gun law propsal which is coming up for a vote. Then this happens.

If you want to know why a respected Doctor believes that this violenece is MORE than coincidental, listen to the third hour of the Jeff Rense show last night at www.sightings.com. The program concerns how kids are influneced adversely by TV, Arcade Games, Movies, Drugs (ritalin etc.)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 21, 1999.

Rick,

Well said! After decades of liberal, hedonistic brainwashing by the "me-first" elitist appreciation for the sanctity of life has become a minority opinion.

-- William (wj@sad.day), April 21, 1999.

Hey Cherri, how's Cory's essay coming along?

-- a (a@a.a), April 21, 1999.

NO NO NO NO,

The problem is.. GREED Todays families are not satisfied to life within their means. NO they need to have the new bigger house, second car, upscale neighborhood, membership in the yacht club, country club just name it. -----The looser are the kids-------. Mother and Father are at work, kiddies are raised at daycare and later they are alone and without supervision after school. Who wonders about the outcome? Watching yesterdays news I was struck by a comment made by a teacher. """" We try to reach the parents but most all we get are voice mail boxes""' Greed.... why doesn't at least one of the parents stay home and take care of those kids? Darn buy a used car, let go of that boot that is unused 80% of the time a pre-owned home , vehicle... will do. Don't let strangers raise your kids. Don't believe teachers and the Gov. will teach them what you did not.. Values and responsibility. It is nobodys fault other then the parents not just the parents of the two guys who did this but all of us. If we would start to change and get away from the Gov. and consumer industry prescribed mode of """ we (you) need to have.... We WILL prevent this from happening in the future. Rickjohn

-- Rickjohn (rickjohn1@yahoo.com), April 21, 1999.

I wonder if our kids are being programed to do the things they do. I once heard a pastor say that your life is what you put into it. With so much violence on tv and violent music blown into their heads, is it no wonder that some are crazy.

I think that kids today are desenitized(?) to violence. Even some the ones that escaped and are able to tell their stories seem unattached to the reality of the horror. After seeing killings and mutlilations in film, is the mind more prepared to accept these events. I am not stating an opinion, I am asking a question trying to find answers like everyone else.

Does media focus at this time help the situation? We all want to know what is happening but are there kids out in tv land watching and thinking what was done is "Cool". Will there be another shooting soon because of media attention?

I know I am very frightened by the world we live in. I don't see it getting better. The claim that Clinton is at fault has a ring of truth. If our leaders and parents do not set the example, then where is an example to follow?

-- Linda A. (adahi@muhlon.com), April 21, 1999.

Cherri,

In answer to your question...

It's just you.

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), April 21, 1999.

Rickjohn,

Perhaps we grew up in a different culture. In the world I live in, a one-person income for a family is not a matter of doing without a few things. A two-person income for a family is already a matter of doing without a LOT of things. A one-person income family lives under a bridge.

Blaming parents for working when the economy requires it is not the answer here. Good child care for after-school times, that alone could make a phenomenal difference in our culture. Start with something that addresses the problem yet works from a positive angle with a solution apparent.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 21, 1999.

Both my parents worked. Dad NEVER got home before 7pm, during Basketball or Baseball season. WE STILL had dinner together, I STILL knew who my parents were, and they STILL managed to teach me right and wrong, what is and is not apropriate. My brother is a software geek, and my other brother is a (pick one) master watch maker, lawyer. Neither of us has had the slightest inclination toward violence.

Course, I left home at 19 and lived in a commune, travelled around teh country by thumb, and generally denied what I had grown up as for a year, before returning to school.

It probably helped that my parents were older when I was born (Dad was 42, Mom was 28) and that we esentially skipped a generation. Both my parents grew up in (or lived through) the Depression, and tended to have the "make do, make IT do, or do without" attitude of depression era folks. I look at my age-mates and wonder. I carry these folks in my car all the time, and there are very few of them who don't, at least internally, and without formulating the concept, keep score on a scoreboard denominated in dolars. The goals being the Lexus, or Beemer, the quarter to 1.5 million dolar house with the great room four baths, seven bedrooms and the 23 car garage (oops, got a little carried away, only 5 car garage) the partnership, the portfolio, Hathaway Brown or Andrews School (for the girls), Philips Academy or Choate (for the boys), etc.

These folks are so funny. It is so easy to identify teh new partners from the older ones and the CEO's. The new partners are the ones who can't quite beat me to the car door, regardless of my route or what I have to do on the way (stow 4 bags, etc). They are hte ones who can't quite figure out how the door handle works (on either side) and expect that the bags on the curb will magically end up in the car, 20 feet away. The Older partners, and the CEO's are the ones that I simply can't get to the door to get it for them unless I'm standing at it when I see them in the terminal, the ones that I actually TRY to do more for and can't because they don't have the time/want to bother with the "amenities", the ones that have truly EARNED the fluff n' buff treatment but don't want it, don't think it is their "due" or their "'props'" to quote a sports show host.

At any rate, I look at my age mates and am truly appalled.

Chuck, a Boomer who doesn't own a Beemer

-- chuck, a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), April 21, 1999.

Looking at the way many kids are raised today, is a good argument for sterilization and contraception. We can't blame it on Clinton but he is certainly a prime example of the times. Too much greed, yes. Too much violence, yes. Then we have the no-working parent households. You know, the go watch TV so we can drink our beer and party kind?

I don't pretend to know the answer any more than I know how to cure our government woes. But we better wake up and see there IS a problem.

-- Y2klady (whathappened@ to.responsibility), April 21, 1999.

Of local interest in Denver since the shootings.

Both bills in the state legislature concerning concealed weapons and logistics issues have been pulled by their sponsors. Gov Owens who supports the concept agreed that it was "a good idea" to pull the current bills from this session. I personally didn't support the bills. (way too bad aka "NRA" betrayed -- fingerprint database kept by the state permanently, criminal "safezones", government mandated training, etc.)

Another example of the triumph of emotion over reason. The demonization of guns continues even by a supposedley conservative Republican Gov. Yikes. If he quit fighting for this compromise legislation due to the actions of two children in a state of 4 Million, I wonder if he'll persevere, oh, about 7 months from now?

-- Jim the Window Washer (super@man.com), April 21, 1999.

TECH32,

>Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that school shootings have increased since Clinton took office?

Have +you+ noticed that the overall murder rate has declined since Clinton took office? It has.

>After all his Administration has had THREE TIMES AS MANY military actions than ALL ADMISTRATIONS SINCE WWII COMBINED!!

That's false. Won't your argument hold up if you restrict yourself to factually-correct statements?

Please list for us (a) the Clinton administration's military actions, and (b) the military actions of all other administrations since WWII, so we can count them for ourselves.

And ... you _do_ agree that we must use the same definition of "military action" for both the Clinton and the other administrations, don't you?

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 21, 1999.

TECH32,

Of course. Clinton is responsible for every single thing that happens on the face of the Earth that we do not like or we consider bad. You may not know it yet, but he is also responsible for anything bad which happens out in space, or the entire universe for that matter. Remember when the dinosaurs died 65 million years ago? Clinton killed them. You heard about the Challenger Space Shuttle explosion? Clinton did it. Just keep believing this theory of yours and you will never again have to take any responsibility for anything you do.

-- @ (@@@.@), April 21, 1999.

No Spam,

Excellent point. It's not the party, nor the administration in power. They are the same. It's the elite in the shadows.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@aol.com), April 22, 1999.

Wait a sec.

You don't think the sight of bombs dropping, buildings burning and refugees fleeing has an effect on our kids?

You don't think Clinton, who has NO honor, credibility or military background and who ordered the launching of those very same bombing raids, bears no responsibilty for the horrors presented to our kids by round-the-clock media?

You don't think our kids can easily recognize Clinton's behavior as the 'bully with the biggest stick on the block' ready to lash out at anyone at anytime without provication?

When they see, over and over, Clinton willing to murder civilians in other countries, how could they NOT be affected? How could they NOT get the message that human life has little (if any) meaning to Clinton and America?

Clinton may not be responsible for the death of the dinosaurs, but he sure is responsible for the death of civilians all over the world.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), April 22, 1999.

TECH32,

Come on, you're dodging ...

1) Have you noticed that the overall U.S. murder rate has declined since Clinton took office -- Yes or No?

2) Can you list for us (a) the Clinton administration's military actions, and (b) the military actions of all other administrations since WWII, so we can count them for ourselves. Please include your definition of "military action" and demonstrate that you used the same criteria for each of the two lists.

>You don't think the sight of bombs dropping, buildings burning and refugees fleeing has an effect on our kids?

Of course it does. I hope it helps them understand why War is Hell, if they have to see it.

You don't think your use of false and misleading statements affects your readers' opinions of your views? (Your turn to answer now.)

>You don't think Clinton, who has NO honor, credibility or military background and who ordered the launching of those very same bombing raids, bears no responsibilty for the horrors presented to our kids by round-the-clock media?

If you truly believe Clinton is as bad as you claim, why do you buttress your argument with false and misleading statements? Do you think his dishonesty justifies yours? You've reduced the credibility of those of your statements which cannot be cross-checked or are opinions.

Horrors have been going on for a long time in many places, but you give the impression that Clinton invented them. Are you old enough to remember any earlier presidents?

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 22, 1999.

TECH32,

How's about we move this discussion to another forum where it would be on-topic?

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 22, 1999.

Or...how about the government's taking over half your income in taxes, forcing so many moms to work to make ends meet, thus fragmenting families? All so our government can drop billions on foreign policy gambits that We the People don't give a damn about anyway? Heck, even in medieval times the serfs only had to fork over a quarter of their crops to the leige lord--more than that and they'd revolt. Nowadays we just sit around and wring our hands and comfort ourselves by saying "hey, it could be worse!" Argumentation suitable for slaves.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), April 22, 1999.

No Spam,

>1) Have you noticed that the overall U.S. murder rate has declined >since Clinton took office -- Yes or No?

Yes, but the decline started in the late 80's when states began enacting 'shall issue' legislation for concealed carry permits (something Clinton definitely opposes). And I am NOT talking about adults being effected, I am talking about our impressionable youth picking up guns and bombs and killing their classmates. Certainly school shootings existed before Clinton, but they HAVE increased since he took office and started lobbing bombs into soverign nations.

>2) Can you list for us (a) the Clinton administration's military >actions, and (b) the military actions of all other administrations >since WWII, so we can count them for ourselves. Please include your >definition of "military action" and demonstrate that you used the >same criteria for each of the two lists.

I am quoting Joeseph Farrah from mwww.worldnetdaily.com and have asked him to provide me with the numbers. When I get them I will post them here.

>Horrors have been going on for a long time in many places, but you >give the impression that Clinton invented them.

I didn't say he invented them. I didn't say he was responsible for the space shuttle explosion either. I am saying that he has been grossly irresponsible in his use of force and that it's consequences may affecting our kids.

>Are you old enough to remember any earlier presidents?

You bet.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), April 22, 1999.

TECH32,

>the decline started in the late 80's when states began enacting 'shall issue' legislation for concealed carry permits (something Clinton definitely opposes).

Actually, the decline started when the Baby Boom demographic bulge moved out of the peak age range of murderers, which has remained the same for decades. It had little or nothing to do with either gun laws or presidential administrations.

>I am quoting Joeseph Farrah from mwww.worldnetdaily.com and have asked him to provide me with the numbers.

It looks like Farrah and you are probably referring to a remarkably effective misinformation article on March 29, written by Geoff Metcalf and quoted in thread The 8 : 33 Ratio... or... how Clinton deploys his (our) troops... at http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000gPQ (If so, either Farrah or you misquoted Metcalf. Read it carefully.)

Metcalf's crafty wording and absence of factual backup has allowed Clinton-attackers to feel free to say absurd things such as your statement above and Andy's waving around (and misquoting) the 8:33 ratio.

Do you or do you not notice that in Metcalf's article quoted in the above thread, Metcalf presents the numbers 8 and 33 as representative of *different* things ("campaigns" versus "places"), but presents not a single example of either category?

>When I get them I will post them here.

Don't hold your breath. I wrote to Metcalf, who wrote the 8:33 article, three weeks ago, asking for his list of items in each category, but have no reply yet. I'll be surprised if I do get one.

Maybe I shouldn't have asked Metcalf in the same message why he counted 1992 in "The Clinton reign" even though Bush was President for the entire year of 1992 and the first three weeks of 1993. There's more than one way to twist the numbers!!

>he has been grossly irresponsible in his use of force

You're being irresponsible in your choice of claims to back up your argument.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 22, 1999.

Thank you, Rick Blaine.

-- GA Russell (garussell@russellga.com), April 22, 1999.

If it weren't for the good sense of No Spam and "a", I would leave this nest of right wing, Clinton hating, fundy, conspiracy nuts, who use Sightings, Art Bell and WND as their sources for facts.

"a" did I ask you if you thought Clinton might be responsible for my cat's hemorrhoids, or my ingrown toenail?

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), April 23, 1999.