Purgatorygreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
in books about the catholic faith i find different opinions about purgatory:- some say it is not a place, but a form of purification (that can be death itself).
- others say that it is really a place where you stay "for a certain time" befor entering heaven.
i have several questions about this, but right now i'll ask the following:
1- what biblical texts are the basis for the existence of purgatory?
2- how can we speak of "certain time" once we are in eternity?
ENRIQUE
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 18, 1999
I have pulled this directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire (1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7): As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come(Dial 4,39; Mt 12:31).
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin"(2 Macc 12:46). From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (1 Cor 41,5; Job 1:5).
I hope this helps clear some things up about purgatory. I have found the Catechism helps to answer many of my questions. Brandi
-- Brandi Kelley (bhk8502@pmail.tamu.edu), April 23, 1999.
The dead know nothing.
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), April 26, 1999.
Dear JamieYou say the dead know nothing to say this you must think that we have know souls and we don't live after we die wich is contrary to Christiananity and almost all Religions I am not sure wich Religion you belong to but from what I read you sound like your Christian.
Yours Sincerily
-- E.H.Weiss (weisse@bmts.com), April 29, 1999.
My thoughts are not contrary to Christianity, but more in line with Biblical teaching not that of mens.Ecc 9:5,6 (the dead know nothing - not my words, the Bible = The God) Psalms 146:4 (we "perish" = die) KJV Heb 10:9 (what would be the point to save something that doest die anyway)
There are others. And, they where not written by men with lonely souls or in a depressed state of mind and feeling as some suggest.
I do not belong to a religion. I try to put all my heart, and soul, (Mat 22:37)in Jehovahs (YHWH) service I fall way short (as my procrastination in responding here to other questions posed). And, yes I consider myself to be a Christian, however I do not hold to those beliefs of trinity, hell-fire eternal human torment and immortal soul, simply because I do not see them (and they are not) taught in the Bible. They are mere overlays.
Peace, Jamey(MGP)
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), April 29, 1999.
Furthermore, I do not know a whole lot about the catechisms but if this is in them:Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Brandi )
Please compare with the Bible, Psalms 49:7.
NASB 7 No man can by any means *redeem his brother Or give to God a *ransom for him --
Also, there is not a 1 Cor 41,5 in the Bible??? Please clarify.
And, Job 1:5 is not for the dead, Job offered sacrifices for his LIVE children not dead ones.
The search for truth always continues, Jamey
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 01, 1999.
Many people are tied up with the literal word of the writings in the Bible. Judiac writings had many faceted meaning and we are still learing to know what was written in the venecular.Faith cannot be explaned for it is a gift from the Father. When we look at the Passion of Christ and see His suffering I wonder how many of have the fortitude for that type of cleansing.
Peace And Well Being.
Jean Bouchard
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 11, 1999.
"When we look at the Passion of Christ and see His suffering I wonder how many of have the fortitude for that type of cleansing."Don't mean to be butting my head into this discussion, but I was wondering why you believe Jesus needed to be cleansed? Was He not sinless from conception?
The Bible refers to Jesus's obedience as being "perfected" (sorry, don't have my Bible in hand or I'd give the reference) through His suffering, but that is referring to Jesus completing the task or work that He came here for and is not a reference to Jesus being imperfect prior to His suffering. I was just wondering what you were referring to. Thank you.
-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 11, 1999.
The carrying of the cross ( our sins ) to be brought to the Father is the context of what I referred to as cleansing.Peace And Well Being
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 14, 1999.
After detailing great feats of faith of our forefathers and mother the writer of Hebrews says,"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles..." (Heb 12:1).
How can they be surrounding us and how can they be witnesses if they are "asleep" and "know nothing"?
-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 14, 1999.
Even Christ Himself was startled and appalled when His own villagers rejected Him. A Prophet is not know in his land was the result WE all try our best.Peace And Well Being.
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 14, 1999.
Jean,Christ was not startled at his own village not accepting him or his teaching. When Jesus had returned to His village after about a year from Cana, etc., His own were expecting something miraculous from him as they had heard Him doing elsewhere. However, Jesus knew their hearts and that they were not in the right place. They were not concerned with the news He had, they wanted to see what they could get out of it, since Jesus was from there the people expected more.
An excerpt:
Their anticipation rises as Jesus, according to his custom, goes to the local synagogue. During the services, he stands up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah is handed to him. He finds the place where it tells of the One anointed by Jehovahs spirit, which place in our Bible today is Isa chapter 61.
After reading about how this One would preach a release to the captives, a recovery of sight to the blind, and about Jehovahs acceptable year, Jesus hands the scroll back to the attendant and sits down. All eyes are intently fixed upon him. Then he speaks, probably at some length, explaining: Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.
The people marvel at his winsome words and say to one another: This is a son of Joseph, is it not? But knowing that they want to see him perform miracles, Jesus continues: No doubt you will apply this illustration to me, Physician, cure yourself; the things we heard as having happened in Capernaum do also here in your home territory. Evidently, Jesus former neighbors feel that healing should begin at home, for the benefit of his own people first. So they feel they have been slighted by Jesus.
Realizing their thinking, Jesus relates some applicable history. There were many widows in Israel during the days of Elijah, he notes, but Elijah was sent to none of those. Rather, he went to a non- Israelite widow in Sidon, where he performed a lifesaving miracle. And in the days of Elisha, there were many lepers, but Elisha cleansed only Naaman from Syria.
Angered by these unfavorable historical comparisons that expose their selfishness and lack of faith, those in the synagogue rise up and rush Jesus outside the city. There, on the brow of the mountain upon which Nazareth is built, they try to throw him over the edge. But Jesus escapes from their grasp and gets away safely. Luke 4:16-30; 1 Kings 17:8-16; 2 Kings 5:8-14. (The Greatest Man)
Please do not take my word for this. Search the Scriptures and make up you own mind. (Acts 17:11)
Shalom,
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 15, 1999.
David,I find it interesting you bring this up but seemingly ignore the OT verses. (Please do not take this the wrong way, I am not trying to attack anyone, but see how others can make the Bible fit into this or that belief and still harmonize with the rest).
How can they be surrounding us and how can they be witnesses if they are "asleep" and "know nothing"?
The words of asleep and know nothing, again, are not my words they are Gods. Since, because they do not agree with another according to the teachings presented, does this not bring to question those teachings and their truthfulness?
Hebrews 12:1 fits with the rest, there are no contradictions except with incorrect thoughts overlayed.
(NWT-Hebrews 12:1) So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Who are these cloud of witnesses?
The witnesses are the heros of the past who have just been mentioned (chp 11). They were not spectators but inspiring EXAMPLES. The Greek word translated witnesses is the origin of the English word martyr and means testifiers, witnesses. They bear testimony to the power of faith and to Gods faithfulness. (The NIV Study Bible)
Remember, these people of the past the Old Covenant did not believe in life after death. They were expecting to inherit a LAND FOREVER Psalms 37, Isaiah 2:2,3; 45:18.They had the OT and the verses already mentioned. They had no reason to think such thoughts as purgatory. Its never mentioned. This Cloud is those of PAST times, who gave EXAMPLE not that they were hovering around those at the times mentioned in Hebrews. Ecclesiastes, Psalms and, again, KJV Heb 10:9 (what would be the point to save something that doesnt die anyway).
My own grandmother gave witness to me of how I should act. But, still she is not here with me today , literally. Her spirit or the thought I carry of her is with me. Thats what Paul is talking about. Not that some dead people are wondering about. Think about this, if those who are supposed to be in Heaven when they die, then they should be in a Perfect place correct? If so, then, how could they be in a perfect place if theyre hovering around us, seeing all our mistakes, our sins, etc, etc?? That does not make sense with the Bible thoughts.
MGP, in our search of Truth
-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 15, 1999.
The Scriptures indeed teach that there's a Purgatory. More will be said on this later on. I noticed that there is someone (JC) who denies that the "soul" survives the death of the body. Obviously, if the soul dies or doesn't exit, then there can be no Purgatory. So let's clear this situation up. Does Scripture speak of something that is part of mankind that survives death? The answer is yes.First, let's define our terms. Most people use the term "soul" to describe the immaterial (spiritual) part of man that survives the physical death of the material (physical) body. This immaterial part of man is conscious after death. I will use "soul" throughout this email with that definition. However, it is a great error to assume that everytime the Scriptures speak of "soul" that it is refering to this spiritual nature. No one denies that 'nephesh'(Hebrew) and 'psuche' (Greek) have a wide range of meanings. In fact, nephesh is used throughout the Hebrew Scriptures to mean simply living being (Gen 2:7). At times it represents the seat of emotions (Gen 42:21; Deut 28:65; Job 3:20; 30:25; Psalm 3:6; 13:2; 86:4).
While the Scriptures do speak of soul as being the entire person, it also speaks of soul as the interior being within man. For instance, the Scriptures speak of "her soul is bitter within her" (2Kings 4:27) and "why are you in despair, O my soul, and why are you boisterous within me?" (Psalm 43:5).
Further, Scripture at times distinguishes between the soul and the body of man. Job declares, "Only his own flesh while upon him will keep aching. And his soul while within him will keep mourning" (Job 14:22). Matthew notes that we are not to "become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" (Matt 10:28). Notice that Jesus says that the body can be killed but the soul survives (it cannot be killed). More illuminating is that Jesus switches terminology in the next sentence saying that both body and soul can be destroyed verses killed. The word destroy means to render powerless or useless. [As when you destroy a plate, you break it into many pieces making it useless but it still exists.] It does not mean to annihilate. When the Son returns to judge the world, everyone's souls and bodies will be re-united to either enter glory or punishment (2Cor 4:10).
That the soul survives the death of the body can be seen in the Hebrew Scriptures. For example, Moses explains to us that while Rachel was having a hard labor "the result was that as her soul was going out (because she died) she called his name Benoni. . ." (Gen 35:18). Additionally, we are told that ". . .the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick, and his sickness came to be so severe that there was no breath left in him. At this she said to Elijah: 'What do I have to do with you, O man of the [true] God? You have come to me to bring my error to mind and to put my son to DEATH.' But he said to her: 'Give me your son.' Then he took him from her bosom and carried him up to the roof chamber, where he was dwelling, and laid him upon his own coach. And he began calling to Yahweh and saying: 'O Yahweh my God, is it also upon the widow with whom I am residing as an alien that you must bring injury by putting her son to DEATH?' And he proceeded to stretch himself upon the child three times and call to Yahweh and say: 'O Yahweh my God, please, cause the SOUL of this child to come back WITHIN HIM.' Finally Yahweh listened to Elijah's voice, so that the SOUL of the child came back WITHIN HIM and he came to LIFE" (1Kings 17:17-22).
The Greek Scriptures also attest to the soul surviving the death of the body while being conscious. "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. And they CRIED with a loud voice, saying: 'Until when Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our BLOOD upon those who dwell on the earth? And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed AS THEY ALSO HAD BEEN" (Rev 6:9- 11). These martyrs in Heaven are fully conscious even though their bodies had been killed. Luke also testifies that the soul continues after the body's death: "Seated at the window, a certain man named Eutychus fell into a deep sleep while Paul kept talking on, and, collapsing in sleep, he fell down from the third story and was PICKED UP DEAD. But Paul went downstairs, threw himself upon him and embraced him and said: 'Stop raising a clamor, for his SOUL IS IN HIM" (Acts 20:9-10). Most important is Jesus' words to the Sadducees in Luke 20:27,38. "However, some of the Sadducees, those who say there is no resurrection, came up and questioned him. . .[Jesus said] he is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him." The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus said "the doctrine of the Sadducess is this: that souls die with the bodies" (Josephus,Antiquities,XVIII,1,4). [Sound familiar? Know some modern day Saudducees?] Here we have Jesus counteracting a belief held by the Sadducees that the soul dies. He emphatically states that they are "all living to him." The tense that Jesus uses for the infinitive "to live" is in the present tense (not the future or the past). In other words, these patriarchs are living now! This accords well with the view of Scripture that the Patriarchs and Prophets of the Old Covenant are now reigning with God in His Kingdom (Gen 5:24; 2Kings 2:1,11; Matthew 8:11; 13:28; Heb 11:5,13-16).
Remember, as I have previously mentioned, not all instances of the word "soul" refer to the interior spiritual nature of man. At times it refers strictly to man's mortal body. However, usually when the "soul" is being contrasted with the body, it refers to the spiritual nature. There is many other verses that speak of the immaterial nature of man or imply it throughout the Scriptures (see Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59; 1Thess 4:13-17; Philippians 1:21-23; 2Cor 5:6- 8; Luke 16:22-28; 23:43).
Now we know that Scripture does not and cannot contradict itself. How then do we understand that the dead "are conscious of nothing at all" (Eccles 9:5)? This passage must be looked at very closely. This passage is primarily used by Jehovah's Witness to deny the existence of soul as defined above. However, this verse causes major problems for them since it explicitly denies one of their major teachings. Witness believe that the majority of people will not be admitted into Heaven, only 144,000. Everyone else that is deemed worthy for life will live on a reconstituted earth. This passage denies this in that it says "and they have no portion anymore to time INDEFINITE in anything that has to be done under the sun" (Eccles 9:6). Once your gone, you're not comin' back to earth. We know there must be more to this verse than meets the eye since the rest of Scripture reveals that there is a future life and that we are not dead forever. [Death refers to the separation of body and soul not unconciousness.] Furthermore, we are told by the inspired author that the fate of all good and bad is exactly the same (Eccles 9:1-3)! Will all go to Heaven. NO! The author then must be speaking of only the physical dimension of life. We all go to the grave good or bad. Our physical bodies no longer think either. So the dead know nothing as far as their bodily senses and worldly affairs are concerned (see also Job 14). Ergo, this does not negate nor is it discussing our spiritual dimension which does have a future (Rom 2:6-13; Heb 9:27-28). God bless your souls and good night. Tomorrow, God willing, we will discuss Purgatory.
-- Jorge (JTrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 23, 1999.
Enrique,Sorry for taking so long in my response regarding Purgatory. I will make is short since I am pressured for time. I will probably be absent for a period of three months due to the nature of my work. But whenever you have a question or comment that you would like to discuss, feel free to e-mail me directly. I will try to answer you as soon as I can.
The Church basis the doctrine of Purgatory as a logical conclusion to on the doctrine of sanctification. Sanctification refers to the life- long process by which we are made intrinsically holy in order to enter glory. "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; WITHOUT HOLINESS NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD" (Heb 12:14). "Nothing impure will ever enter it [the new Jerusalem], nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Rev 21:27). "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48)."But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" (2Thess 2:13). "I [Jesus] will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me" (Acts 26:17-18). (See also 1Cor 1:2; Eph 5:25-27; 1Thess 3:11-13; 5:23-24; Heb 12:1-17.)
We are sanctified by our works: "If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work" (2Tim 2:21). "I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free fom the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom 6:19-23).
We can attain holiness/sanctification only through God's grace. "Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace" (2Cor 1:12). "And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need you will abound in every good work" (2Cor 9:8). "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me" (1Cor 15:10). (Scripture speaks of grace given in various measures: Acts 4:23; James 4:6; 1Pet 4:10; 2Pet 1:2; Rom 12:6; 15:15; Gal 2:9; Eph 4:7; Heb 4:16; Heb 13:9.)
Unfortunately, God's grace can be rejected by man through sin. We are told of those who "receive the grace of God in vain" (2Cor 6:1), "frustrate the grace of God" (Gal 2:21), are "fallen from grace" (Gal 5:4) and "despite the Spirit of grace" (Heb 10:29) [see also Jude 4]. Instead we are instructed to "grow in grace" (2Pet 3:18).
When one commits a sin there is two consequences, an eternal one and a temporal one. When someone comes to God through faith [and its end result gracious works], that person is freed from eternal damnation which is the eternal consequence of that persons sins. However, their still remains the temporal consequences of sins. A person is freed from this through the process of sanctification whereby one is transformed from sin to righteousness. (Some examples of sins eternal consequence being forgiven but not the temporal consequences: The consequence of Adam & Eves fall - physical death (Gen 2:17; 3:19). Physical death still befalls man regardless if he is saved or not. Additionally, God demanded further consequences after David repented of his sins (2Sam 12:14). Why would this be if David was "forgiven", if indeed there is no such thing as temporal punishment for sins in addition to eternal punishment? [See also Col 1:24]).
The Bible speaks of sins that are mortal and those that are not mortal. "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death" (1John 5:16-17). "Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" (James 1:15). [See also these verses for mortal sins: Matt 12:32; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5; 1Cor 6:9-10.]
Since not all people will be perfect at the end of their lives, God will purify them of their non-mortal sins and their temporal consequences in Purgatory. Thus Purgatory is the final step of sanctification, for those not completely purified to see the Creator, in this life. Purgatory, although not named as such in Scripture, is implied in the Bible. Some common texts that allude to Purgatory are 2Maccabees 12:46, Luke 16:19-31, 1Corinthians 3:10-17, 2Tim 1:16-18; Hebrews 12:23, 1Peter 1:6-7, 3:18-19, and 4:6. [Of course there is other numerous texts. For an excellent treatment of 1Cor 3:10-17, see "Not by Faith Alone: The Biblical Evidence for the Catholic Doctrine of Justification," Chapter 8 - The Final Justification, pgs 491-516, by Robert A. Sungenis.]
"Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. . .Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. . .for our 'God is a consuming fire'" (Heb 12:11,14,29).
-- Jorge (JTrujillo7203@hotmail.com), July 05, 1999.
Jorge, i liked your answer very much. besides giving me much food for reflection and study it also invited me to read the Bible in a more profound way to find more of the riches it contains. Thanks.ENRIQUE
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), July 07, 1999.
From the mouth of babes came the following wisdom. Asked some the kids at our parish school once if they thought they would go to hell. One very wise girl of eight said " Not if you love Jesus " - End of discussion in that class for sure.=Peace=Jean B.
-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 08, 1999.
In a recent thread the concept of the necessity to endure temporal punishment for sins forgiven, whether in this world or the next (Purgatory) were mentioned. A comment was made to the effect that nowhere in the “revised” Bible, non-Catholic Christians use, could any references to the above be found. As 2 Mac. 12:43-46 does not hold any water with some of our distinguished visitors, as they have deprived themselves of the full knowledge of wisdom and truth; the following scriptural references from the King James Version of the Bible might be helpful in shedding some light: 2 Sam. 12:13-14; Matt. 3:11-12; Matt. 5:25-26; Matt. 12:32; Matt. 18:23-25; Luke 12:47-48; Luke 12:58-59; John 20:21-23 together with Matt. 18:18; 1 Cor. 3:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Phil. 2:10; Col. 1:24; Heb. 12:5; Heb. 12:14; Heb 12:23; 1 Pet. 3:19; Rev.5:2-3; Rev. 21:27.Due to the risk of losing some readers to boredom, I chose not to paste the actual scriptural passages here. I also did not want to use up an inordinate amount of space on those who would not read them under any circumstances. Each reference listed relates in one way or another, to the concept of purifying one’s self in this world, and/or the next, in order to satisfy Our Saviour’s need for sanctification.
I would ask all of you to indulge me one small privilege! For the record, I am placing this post in all threads with the word “Purgartory” in their title. I hope this does not confuse anyone when reading recent responses to the forum.
St. James and Mary, Our Blessed Mother, help us to accept whatever our Maker will appoint at the supreme moment of our final breath, and as always, pray for us!
Ed
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 25, 2001.
Links for the above verses:
2 Sam. 12:13-14; ... Matt. 3:11-12; ... Matt. 5:25-26; ... Matt. 12:32; ... Matt. 18:23-25; ... Luke 12:47-48; ... Luke 12:58-59; ... John 20:21-23 together with Matt. 18:18; ... 1 Cor. 3:15; ... 2 Cor. 5:10; ... P hil. 2:10; ... C ol. 1:24; ... H eb. 12:5; ... Heb. 12:14; ... Heb 12:23; ... 1 Pet. 3:19; ... Rev.5:2-3; ... Rev. 21:27.St. James, pray for us. St. Judas Maccabeus, pray for us.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 25, 2001.
why does the catholic church persist with this? and why would God want to let anyone stay in this place know as purgatory? to me why would my Lord allow me to stay in "no man's land".all through the bible God only speaks of heaven and hell.if purgatory exits would he not have told us.my fellow believers in the book of revelation Christ opens the book of life were all who have accepted him as their Lord and Saviour go to heaven and those who dont go to hell.when we go before our Lord he will not say to us "you have to wait in purgatory for a time until enough people have prayed for you or you've not had enough masses said for you" brothers and sisters stop trying to find what is not there and concentrate on what is...matthew 28:16-20..the great commission.yours in the love of our Lord
-- Paul Salina (paulsalina@blueyonder.co.uk), February 28, 2005.
Come back and see us after you get to heaven, Paul. Let us know if you took a short cut, just reading a Bible. Of course, we know you haven't any sin to worry about. --You read the Bible. Ciao.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 28, 2005.
So Paul, which is it? Nominal Christians who lived with one foot in the kingdom and the other in the world walk brazenly into heaven alongside those who have devoted their entire earthly lives to serving God? Or, anyone who has not completely devoted his entire earthly life to God's service, and is not perfectly pure in all respects, ends up in hell? It has to be one or the other if there is no chance of final purification after death.In any case, the historical fact is that Christians were aware of the reality of Purgatory from Apostolic times. It is only during the last few hundred years that anyone calling himself Christian has doubted the reality of this fundamental Christian truth. You have been fed modern traditions of men, replacing the Word of God.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 28, 2005.
I would still like to know why people say that we are going to spend eternity in heaven when the bible reveals that the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God prepared as a bride adorned for her husband?Paul, you once said that in eternity there'll only be heaven and hell. Where is your scriptural basis for saying this? The bible speaks of both a new heaven and new earth.
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 28, 2005.
Personally I don't need a "scriptural basis" for my beliefs, other than Christ's words to His Church, "whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven". That statement by Christ is sufficient basis for every binding teaching His Church professes. However, some passages you might wish to consider are:"Even as cockle therefore is gathered up, and burnt with fire: so shall it be at the end of the world. " (Matt 13:40)
"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away." (Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33)
"But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief, in which the heavens shall pass away with great violence, and the elements shall be melted with heat, and the earth and the works which are in it, shall be burnt up." (2 Peter 3:10)
"And the world passeth away, and the concupiscence thereof: but he that doth the will of God, abideth for ever." (1 John 2:17)
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 01, 2005.
Dear Oliver:Paul makes a good counter argument. What men must see in this life is but a bare minimum; and never presume to know. Particularly if you think you have understood apocalyptic prophesy.
Eye has not seen, nor ear heard; nor has it entered into the heart of man . . .
Have absolute faith in God. Let Him surprise us.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.
2 Peter 3:13 - But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
Can you please tell me then why I should ignore the following verses? I do not deny that the heavens and earth as we know it will pass away, however, you cannot say that there will never be a new heaven or new earth because the verses I have given you are very clear.
The verse in Peter speaks of the consummate answer to the Lord's prayer : Your name be sanctified, Your will be done, your kingdom come..... Where ? On the Earth as in the heavens.
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), March 01, 2005.
You misread me, Oliver. There's even a blessing promised a faithful soul, for reading and contemplating the Book of Revelation. Great theologians have been at it since the days of the Fathers. But no one will truly understand very much if he takes things at face value. If we have not seen, nor heard, nor has it entered into the hears of men, what things God has repared for those who love Him; then all is imagery as it stands.But men develop something concrete all too often. Instead of tribulation it's four horsemen, and the City coming down from heaven in one Zoom. We'd better leave these things to God. We just love Him, from Alpha to Omega; and carry on in FAITH. The alternative is making a Tarot deck out of revelation. Not wise, IMHO.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.
But Eugene, you said Paul gave me a good counter-argument that there shall be no Earth by using some verses, and I answered with some verses that show that there will be no more old earth but there will be a new earth. How am I being presumptious by stating what scripture says? If the bible says there will be a new earth, how is it being presumptious for me to say that there will be a new earth?With all due respect, I feel there are some double standards on this forum. When a Catholic uses scripture, he's supported by another Catholic. When a Non-Catholic uses scripture, he's told that he's being presumptious.
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), March 01, 2005.
Come on;
Nobody calls you presumptuous. I only speak sincerely for myself. I said he made a good argument. But what I --said,Was merely my own principle; of allowing events to happen without trying to forecast. Not because your expectations aren't interesting. More because I don't think the future is ever predictable. But it's only my opinion. Bible passages are not for clues to coming events or literal guarantees. Too many charlatans have tried to pin-point coming events by interpreting scripture.
The Pope played a superb role of steadying influence for the faithful, in 1999. Everybody had some kind of Y2K pre-occupation. Many predicted the end of the world, etc.,
John Paul II told us to settle down and live in deeper faith. Pray, enter a new millennium of the faith, and Fear Not. Because the mysteries of God can't be fathomed by men. Not even a Pope. I gained even MORE respect for him than I already had.
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.
My Dear Oliver:
Your words above brought to mind something WONDERFUL I have contemplated in the past. It's about the Pater Noster; Our Father.You might say THIS: ''Your will be done, your kingdom come..... Where ? On the Earth as in the heavens''
I have another spin on these words. They are awe-inspiring to me. Jesus says, ''Thy kingdom come--'' STOP. He meant a kingdom yet to come. --THEN continuing, a whole new vision: ''Thy Will be done on earth (in the same manner) as it is in heaven.''
Christ equated what must be done in our own sphere; --He equates it with the infinite Power of Almighty God over and above all the heavens, the whole Creation! This is an awesome thought. If God's Will is so unstoppable and Wise that the Universe obeys it-- Christ prays for the same Will to dominate us and our own world.
''Thy Will be done on earth, --as it is done in every star and galaxy (HEAVEN) and molecule of Creation.'' I love this glorious phrase in the Lord's Prayer. --Jesus is acknowledging His Father as the Ruler of the Universe!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), March 01, 2005.
Our Lord told St. Gertrude the Great that the following prayer would release 1000 souls from Purgatory each time it is said:
Eternal Father, I offer You the Most Precious Blood of Your Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory. Amen. (Approval and recommendation by Cardinal Pahiarca, Lisbon, Portugal, March 4, 1936)
-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), March 02, 2005.
Little Litany of the Holy Souls
(approved for private use, and bears the imprimatur of Most Rev. Samuel Stritch, former Archbishop of Milwaukee)
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Holy Souls, Pray for us.
For the souls of our families We pray Thee, O God.
For the souls of our friends, We pray Thee, O God.
For the souls of our enemies, We pray Thee, O God.
For the souls of all pagans, We pray Thee, O God.
For the souls of all priests, We pray Thee, O God.
For the souls of all religious, We pray Thee, O God.
For the souls of the just, We pray Thee, O God.
For the souls of all sinners, We pray Thee, O God.
For the Holy Souls in Purgatory, We pray Thee, O God.
For those who have none to pray for them, We pray Thee, O God.
O almighty and eternal God, we beg Thee to have mercy on the Holy Souls in Purgatory, especially those for whom we are bound to pray; and we ask Thee also to listen to the prayers of the Blessed Souls in our behalf. Amen.
Prayer Source: Kyrie Eleison — Two Hundred Litanies by Benjamin Francis Musser O.F.M., The Magnificat Press, 1944
-- Nick (nixplace39@hotmail.com), March 02, 2005.