Just posting to let people know- if your planning on buying a gun, GET TRAINING! I've recommended to my friends that they buy a .410 or 12 gauge, a handgun if they can train with it, and a permit just so they can have it before the panic (I live in Taxachussetts, gun ownership is pretty much unheard of). Anyway I've stopped with the recommendations. This weekend I went with a friend of mine to a gun shop to get a rifle, he pretty much went to the first rifle he saw and bought it (a ruger 40 cal carbine, takes the same mags as the pistol). Then he wanted the pistol without looking at anything else! I told him to try different calibers- I don't use anything larger than a 9mm 'cuz my hands are small and I don't get the control I want. Would not do it, wanted both. What started out as a simple get-a-simple-pump-12-gauge turned into a bigger deal than I thought. BTW, the dealer had to tell him like 4 TIMES to quit aiming the pistol at people. The amazing thing is that my friend is ex-military. I would think that today's army would provide a little more firearms training than the limited civilian knowledge I have. So I don't know whats worse- today's army with M-16's or civilians using Armalite .223's and not knowing that it shoots a high velocity round. Just a sad state of affairs in our state- its been pretty tough trying to find guys who can give me pointers with target shooting my semi-auto target rifle, I'm pretty much self taught and I know a lot of the folks buying these guns have no clue what they are doing. Every year I read Masaad Ayoob's book "In The Gravest Extreme- The Role of the Firearm in Self-Defense". Outstanding. I noticed be has a book on defensive shotgun- can anyone provide feedback on this volume?

-- Court Jester (anonymous@anywhere.com), April 15, 1999

Answers

Well Jester,

If you think THAT'S bad, listen to my tale of woe.

Most states let you buy a gun after getting training or if you have a military honorable discharge. The latter assumes that the military taught you something about firearms.

I joined the Navy in 1979. In boot camp, we spent a total of 2 hours with a Colt .45 and an AR-15. We fired NO rounds through the pistol, and 4 BLANKS through the AR-15.

Needless to say, that didn't teach any of us anything.

Jolly

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), April 15, 1999.

Dear "Jester,"

My first "accidental" essay on this board contended that fixed position defense is impossible. Anyone with real training or experience in small unit tactics can verify this claim. By the way, any home or Y2K "retreat" is a fixed position.

I think civilian firearm "training" is completely inadequate for a combat situation. Even the best military training in the world cannot fully prepare an individual for the experience of hostile fire. The civilian quasi-combat courses, in my opinion, do little more than create a false sense of confidence.

Furthermore, only in the worst possible scenarios can I imagine Y2K- related problems created a need for civilians to engage in armed conflict. If one considers this a possibility, I suggest the average person is better off learning how to avoid contact/conflict than spending time on the firing range.

Combat, good sir, is the business of killing other human beings before they kill you. It is a brutal, random, bloody affair. It wounds everyone who participates.

I respectfully suggest you take your semi-automatic target rifle (an oxymoron if you ask me) and spend a great deal of time figuring out how not to use it.

By the way, the Ruger carbine (similar in design to the Ruger 10/22) is chambered for a .44 magnum.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), April 15, 1999.

C.J. discretion is always a consideration when advising people on firearms. While I have done some of the sort of consulting you describe, it is *always* only with people I know well, and whom I am already certain will not react in the manner you describe. A few others, I may take shooting with me after they've already completed a basic firearms safety course, and the rest, well, I just don't fit them into my schedule, you know?

you made a mistake with this guy, yeah, it's a bummer, but if he's as clueless as you describe, he's probably a self-cancelling mistake anyway...just gotta be a little more careful next time, that's all.

Mr. Decker,

1. Please calm down. No, I'm not happy about the clown with the Ruger carbine either, though it is a passable self-defense gun if used properly. Clowns like that happen - look at the current occupants of the whitehouse. However useless such persons may be, they are no reason to simply discard the concept of individual self- defense. Most people *are* responsible individuals, if approached properly.

2. There are many instances where a firearm is used in self-defense totally unrelated to a confrontation with combat trained personnel. If anything, a serious enough y2k discontinuity will result in *more* not less such occurances. Indeed, the overall probabilities are that any self-defense confrontation will NOT be with combat trained personnel. Given that, a modicum of small unit tactics would certainly be helpful in community defense. These tactics can be learned and practiced. Even without them, however, an armed community is inevitably less likely to succumb to tyranny than a disarmed community. That being the case, the more armed, trained civilians the better.

3. No sniper survives on his own merits. If he's not operating as part of a team, he's simply become a legend in his own mind. I suggest you take you bolt action long range rifle, and locate some folks who know what they're doing to cover your back...and then stick with them, rather than simply trying to lone wolf it.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 15, 1999.

Four basic rules.

1) Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Lot's of accidents occur because someone "Didn't think it was loaded". So, from now on, IT'S LOADED. Until you open the action and look in the breech and see it empty, it's loaded. And you know what, if you put the weapon down for an instant, pretend that the ammo fairy magically loaded it and check it again when you pick it up next.

2) Never point any firearm at anything you wouldn't want destroyed. Also phrased as, "Always point the gun in a safe direction". I say it my way because any direction your pointing a weapon isn't safe any more, now is it?

3) Always be sure of your target and what's behind it. Don't tack your target to bushes or other things that you can shoot through but will conceal what's behind it. Or shoot at a rocky or hard back stop that would be likly to cause ricochets. It's your bullet. Your responsible for where it ends up.

4) Keep your finger out of the trigger guard unless your sights are on target. People who wave guns around with their fingers on the trigger are asking for trouble. Rather rest yor finger along side or around the trigger guard. The only exception would be if your actually in a gun fight, where things tend to be real unsafe for other reasons.

An excellent book to add to your library is "The art of the rifle" by Jeff Cooper. It will tell you everything you need to know to be a rifleman.

Be safe

eyes_open

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), April 15, 1999.

A couple of liberal/collectivist New World Order strategies to eliminate private gun ownership

1) Make it difficult and expensive to get trained and practice. Then, when accidents happen, they can holler: "See, we told you so, we need even more restrictions."

2) Make it "politically incorrect" and escalate the fear of confiscation. So daddy has a gun stashed away, and junior, never having seen it before, takes it out and blows away baby sister. (The reason daddy didn't show the gun to junior and train him in it is that daddy knows junior will want to "share" at his "show and tell" in school and that teacher will put him, daddy, on the "list". Then, when accidents happen, they can holler: "See, we told you so, we need even more restrictions."

When I was a kid -- long, long ago -- I had cap pistols, BB guns, later a .22 rifle. When I was at the cap pistol age, my dad showed me and let me shoot his real pistol. Funny, I didn't have any trouble telling the difference between real guns and play guns.

So, all the "accidents" we see that the media so gleefully jumps on, are they the result of kids being stupider nowadays, or lack of exposure to real vs non-real?

-- A (A@AisA.com), April 16, 1999.

A - excellent point! I'd submit that it's a combination of not being taught to discern real vs imaginary, combined with lack of proper adult supervision. Sadly, as we can see from the events of the current federal administration, there are putative adults who lack proper adult supervision.

ah well,

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 16, 1999.

Hi Deck,

Well you've offered an interesting conundrum. I was planning on Ayoob's advice and staying out of harm's way in my house if things got bad- but that's "fixed", so I guess I'll have to rely on the local Guard and cops who spend less time at the range than I do. I'll be sure to buy a musket as well for target practice in the future. (I was planning on getting into the Civilian Marksmanship program this fall and possibly buying an M1A from the government-but I guess M1A and target are oxymorons)

Actually Deck, I've been in a combat situation- I was beaten senseless several years ago while minding my own business jogging in my own quiet suburban neighborhood around dusk. Two guys drove by, jumped me, and one started whacking me with a bat. Tossed 'em my wallet but I guess that wasn't good enough (I now carry a wad of cash in my pistol fanny pack, to toss to an assailant to avoid problems). Anyway in the process of getting two broken bones and a bad cut to the back of my head that needed 12 stitches, someone from a nearby house saw us and came out to my rescue with a hunting rifle. I kind of changed my mind about gun control that day. That experience was brutal, random, and scared me to death.

Lets have a little review here. We have brutal crimes taking place in the profitable 90's when things are great and moral relativism is rampant. If you don't think Y2K has the potential to cause one hell of a disruption including an increase in crime you are ignorant of human nature and of history.

Deck, obviously you have never seen the excellent program Smith and Wesson has here in MA for defensive shooting. You also seem to have a short memory and forget Asian storeowners keeping their businesses safe during the LA riots by staying on the roof with AK-47's in sight. You might love Clinton's nanny state where semi-autos are banned and gung ho GI Joe types like yourself can have free reign to practice military tactics from mobile small units- but THANK YOU, I'll take some responsibility for my own safety, advise others to do the same, and teach my kid target practice and gun safety with my SEMI-AUTO .223 when he's old enough.

-- Court Jester (anonymous@anywhere.com), April 16, 1999.

Decker,

You are wrong. Ruger makes a carbine called the Patrol Carbine chambered for 9mm and 40S&W. It is designed to complement the Ruger pistols marketed to law enforcement. They DO make a 10/22 looking carbine chjambered in 44 Mag.

-- Richard,USMC (rkb65@hotmail.com), April 16, 1999.

My preferred strategy would be to drop out of sight and keep moving, but I'm not that good at wilderness survival yet, and I have somebody to take care of who cannot do that. As long as I'm stationary and stocked (though I won't make it obvious), I figure I better be armed, and if armed I better be as skilled as I can be. I took a combat class recently and it was an eye-opener--with a little coaching it was much easier than I expected to draw fast and hit multiple targets. Against the ex-Special Forces guys who were teaching the course I'd be toast, that was obvious...but I'm pretty sure my odds against the average person are significantly improved, and I don't plan on doing anything that would draw professional attention. As for the stress of combat, the key is practice, practice, practice. After a couple years of martial arts training I found that dangerous situations made me incredibly relaxed and concentrated. It got me out of a bad situation once.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), April 16, 1999.

If Ruger is now manufacturing a Patrol Carbine, I stand corrected. The .44 carbine was a popular rifle, and I believe production was discontinued. Bill Ruger is a sharp fellow, and I can see the marketing appeal of a law enforcement-type carbine.

"Jester"

I am sorry you were the victim of a physical assault. With all due respect, being assaulted is not the same as combat. Home defense against armed, violent intruder(s), is somewhere between the two extremes. When reading about Y2K preparations that include firearms, home defense is often the concern.

My military service was based on an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States... including the Second Amendment. You (and your untrained friend) have the right to keep and bear arms. The right to have a rifle, however, should not be confused with the ability to use it well.

It makes me nervous to hear about folks buying a high velocity rifle for "home defense." In today's paper-thin houses, you can kill someone three doors down if you start spraying lead. And if you have carried a rifle with an automatic or semi-automatic action, you also know how it jams at the worst possible time. (Despite the fine folks at Springfield and their ability to tune a M1A, I'll take a bolt action for long range shooting any day of the week.)

If you really want a "home defense" weapon, try a Mossberg 500 USA combat shotgun. And load it with buckshot, not slugs. It might prevent you from punching through 1/2" drywall and killing a family member.

Until you have seen your friend's widow accept neatly folded American flag at graveside... well, until then you are enjoying the rights someone else earned. You might want to find a veteran and ask for some help... instead of popping off about "GI Joe types."

And teach your kid how to shoot with a .22. I suggest a single-shot, bolt action rig like an Anschutz target rifle. You'll be able to afford a lot more ammunition and it will keep him (or her) from learning some bad habits.

I wish you well.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), April 16, 1999.

Decker, Who the heck said anything about using a .223 for home defense? Its not like we're talking civil war or something. We're talking home defense and you go off on "fixed postiion" like your ready to start a war. Do I have to run off to the Red Cross shelter? I've got a Mossberg 590 for home defense and a S&W .38 revolver for carry. The .223 is for competition. But, as long as folks like yourself insist that semi-autos and target shooting are oxymorons, and Clinton keeps restricting kids from learning good firearm practice, we'll have more accidents.

Asking veterns for help is questionable. I have about a dozen people I know who are veterans (in their 20's and 30's), four are in the reserves/guard. Only one has any idea how to shoot or use semi-autos and he is ex-airborne. Maybe this is unusual, I don't know. One of my friends met his wife in Korea- she's still in the reserves, and they "showed us how to use guns, but I don't like guns and don't think I could ever bring myself to KILL anyone." Two are cops and in reserves. GI Joe types to the max. They can't wait for Y2K and have an attitude that has no place in their profession. If your from New England we've just had two cases south of here in CT where 2 suspects were killed by cops shooting them in the back. I'm starting to wonder how our military can function with no one knowing how to operate sidearms.

I've got a pin in my leg, I coulndn't join the Navy. Based on the prior poster I wouldn't have gotten any firearms training anyway. Military service isnt the only occupation that guarantees rights at great personal cost. Detritch Bonhoeffer gave his life fighting the Nazis working as a minister. (and several brave Jews in the Warsau ghetto, with no training, held off the German army for a month with just a few weapons. Food for thought with rioters)

-- Court Jester (anonymous@anywhere.com), April 16, 1999.

Personally, I've got to side with C.J. on this one - I'm not nearly as worried about armed citizens as I am about those who would disarm them.

Decker either I'm not reading your posts clearly or there's something missing here, but since we've already discussed firearms safety what's with the "spraying lead" with a semi-auto rifle? Again, proper firearms safety is the first concern, and if that takes precedence there will be no 'spraying'.

I'd be more concerned with someone who thought he could defend his family with a bolt action and then discovered the hard way that he was wrong...not good for the family and a further burden on the community.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 16, 1999.